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On April 12 2011 23:53 Holgerius wrote:I remember when Lightwip trolled in the same way a while ago regarding Flash. He didn't like Flash's ''style'', he found it boring. You know, despite the fact that Flash uses literally every style in the book, from macro turtle to cheese to timing pushes to harassment style... XD In other words; it's kind of pointless to argue with people who are basing what they say on bias and fanboyism. 
I don't understand why Flash fans pretend like he has no particular style of play that he's well known for, when just about everybody else (including Flash himself) seem to notice that, in general, he's a more defensive player.
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I dont know if this is relevant but this finals was commentated by 4 guys.... wow Funny fact !!
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On April 13 2011 09:13 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 05:38 Craton wrote:
Eh? Flash is very boring. He may cheese once in a bo5, but nearly every game is 14cc or 1 rax expand into turtling. His "timing pushes" are generally after sitting on 3-4 bases for half an hour. The only other thing you see is a bunker rush vs a 12 nexus and sometimes a 12 hatch, which is frankly also boring because one player inevitably gets a massive advantage and the rest of the game is boring to watch.
It's extremely offensive and condescending to accuse someone of trolling because they disagree with you. How else am I supposed to interpret it when people write stuff such as the things you just wrote then? Either it's trolling, or it's extremely misinformed idiocy. For example, look at this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/54466_Flash_vs_Jaehoon/vodhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/56520_Flash_vs_Grape/vod2 games from Flash's last 10 TvP's that include 4 Rax MnM (and Tanks of course) from 2 bases in TvP. Is that ''after sitting on 3-4 bases for half an hour''? Watch those games, then look at what you wrote in your post. It's nonsense, simply not true, and it was spurted out because you have a clear bias against Flash. Anyway, this isn't supposed to be about him. But the same thing goes for the vast majority of the people who whine about SKT being boring or about Bisu cheesing here. They wouldn't utter one word of criticism if it had been their own team, and their own favourite player, doing the exact same thing. It's a very common phenomenon.I personally always think it's very silly to see people finding excuses for their disappointment. This entire final made me very sad and angry, and I think it was a complete fucking waste of time watching the bullshit, but that's because I'm a fanboy of the losing team. 100%. I would've jumped out of my chair due to excitement if Flash had bunker rushed a 12 Nex by Bisu in that 5th game. I would've posted about how smart and well prepared he was. And I feel very confident saying that 99% of all other people here wouldn't really care in what manner it happened if their team had won WL. They would've been happy as hell no matter what.
Yes, it's always refreshing to see people acknowledge their blind fanboyism. What irks me are those who really deny it.
I'm still not glad about the series being 4:1. + Show Spoiler +I would have been happy if Bisu lost that and for flash to dominate the next player only to be stomped by Hyuk.
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On April 13 2011 09:33 Crisium wrote:
The only thing boring about Flash is that he does the same damn thing nearly every game, and every bloody matchup. No matter what he just can't help but win.
you are a freaking troll because apparently you didn't bother to read a post above me which has flash v grape which has non standard game's mnm and tanks is that the same thing flash do every game I don't think so.
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On April 13 2011 05:38 Craton wrote:
Eh? Flash is very boring. He may cheese once in a bo5, but nearly every game is 14cc or 1 rax expand into turtling. His "timing pushes" are generally after sitting on 3-4 bases for half an hour. The only other thing you see is a bunker rush vs a 12 nexus and sometimes a 12 hatch, which is frankly also boring because one player inevitably gets a massive advantage and the rest of the game is boring to watch.
It's extremely offensive and condescending to accuse someone of trolling because they disagree with you.
I hear you brother.
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On April 13 2011 13:12 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 09:33 Crisium wrote:
The only thing boring about Flash is that he does the same damn thing nearly every game, and every bloody matchup. No matter what he just can't help but win. you are a freaking troll because apparently you didn't bother to read a post above me which has flash v grape which has non standard game's mnm and tanks is that the same thing flash do every game I don't think so.
the post highlights 2 out of 10 games
the above poster also mentioned "nearly" every game.
read more carefully and flame less.
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On April 13 2011 14:47 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 13:12 Sawamura wrote:On April 13 2011 09:33 Crisium wrote:
The only thing boring about Flash is that he does the same damn thing nearly every game, and every bloody matchup. No matter what he just can't help but win. you are a freaking troll because apparently you didn't bother to read a post above me which has flash v grape which has non standard game's mnm and tanks is that the same thing flash do every game I don't think so. the post highlights 2 out of 10 games the above poster also mentioned "nearly" every game. read more carefully and flame less.
Flash Is terran after all do you expect him to do a TVT dropship play like the game he versus best for every TVP match up he plays ? That's pretty absurd after all flash do play very defensively like all t's does in their match up in tvp .So you can say boring all you want but that's how he work's and i am just stating that he isn't all turtle in game all the time with the few references of him vs jaehoon and grape plus best . I am not flaming because it's as if all skt fanboys like to take it personal and take on flash and expecting kt fan's not to respond to such comments.
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I don't understand the choice of KT coach to field Crazy-Hydra for set 2. I mean, come on, s2 is a ZvZ sniper sent out on Zerg map to beat a player who was most likely to play Zerg too. He was practising hella lot ZvZ for sure, so trying to eliminate him with this race looks mehworthy.
Looking back at this, I think KT should have just sent Flash as his starter. This way, he would dodge Aztec no matter what happened. I think the skill gap between him and s2 was enough to compensate for map imbalance, especially when literally noone expected Terran to be fielded on Bloody Ridge.
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I can't really tell if I like what I (might have) started.
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On April 13 2011 17:49 popzags wrote:
Looking back at this, I think KT should have just sent Flash as his starter. This way, he would dodge Aztec no matter what happened. I think the skill gap between him and s2 was enough to compensate for map imbalance, especially when literally noone expected Terran to be fielded on Bloody Ridge.
It was very likely that a protoss would be sent on Bloody Ridge, and that means that there would be some trouble if it was a good one.
Though if SKT would've sent Bisu on BR, then Action would've still not been so well off. In any case, if Flash is down, it's not unlikely that Fantasy or Bisu could sweep the rest of the team, so risking him at the start should be avoided in hopes of sniping Bisu/Fanta.
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On April 13 2011 15:17 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:47 Doraemon wrote:On April 13 2011 13:12 Sawamura wrote:On April 13 2011 09:33 Crisium wrote:
The only thing boring about Flash is that he does the same damn thing nearly every game, and every bloody matchup. No matter what he just can't help but win. you are a freaking troll because apparently you didn't bother to read a post above me which has flash v grape which has non standard game's mnm and tanks is that the same thing flash do every game I don't think so. the post highlights 2 out of 10 games the above poster also mentioned "nearly" every game. read more carefully and flame less. Flash Is terran after all do you expect him to do a TVT dropship play like the game he versus best for every TVP match up he plays ? That's pretty absurd after all flash do play very defensively like all t's does in their match up in tvp .So you can say boring all you want but that's how he work's and i am just stating that he isn't all turtle in game all the time with the few references of him vs jaehoon and grape plus best . I am not flaming because it's as if all skt fanboys like to take it personal and take on flash and expecting kt fan's not to respond to such comments.
Im actually a Flash fan only slightly less than i am a Bisu fan, so i feel that my point of view is pretty objective.
I cant say for other threads, since i have not read them all, but as far as this thread is concerned, the flame war starts when some KT fans got tired of blaming Aztec imbalance-ness, and turned on Bisu and branded him with cheesing, some also did lable SKT as a boring team w boring play n such. As the die-hard Bisu fans that we are, many rose to his defence, some crossed the line and took a few cheap shots at Flash too.
While Flash does indeed favor defensive play, in this season he probably did more creative build vP than all other Ts combined (minus maybe Fantasy). So he is (imo) definitely not a boring player. That said, he got outplayed/outprepared this time, better luck in MSL  .
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On April 13 2011 17:49 popzags wrote:
I don't understand the choice of KT coach to field Crazy-Hydra for set 2. I mean, come on, s2 is a ZvZ sniper sent out on Zerg map to beat a player who was most likely to play Zerg too. He was practising hella lot ZvZ for sure, so trying to eliminate him with this race looks mehworthy.
Looking back at this, I think KT should have just sent Flash as his starter. This way, he would dodge Aztec no matter what happened. I think the skill gap between him and s2 was enough to compensate for map imbalance, especially when literally noone expected Terran to be fielded on Bloody Ridge.
The 5 hydra 24 zergling attack was a prepared build for stats, so KT accurately diagnosed that S2 was looking to take out stats. For all the talk about  s2 being a "zerg sniper," check out his vZ stats and his vP stats. Assuming that they wanted to save flash, CH was just their best player left. CH didn't have a shot to beat bisu or fantasy, so a chance to take out S2 was worth it (unless you want to use CH to take out SKT's 4th, but either stats or flash shouldn't have too much of a problem against anyone else (although any of them could had had a special build like S2).
Sending Flash first would have been interesting. Would had put a bisu MU on a more favorable map, and S2 would had been killed instantly, so stats could have been used later (ignoring the zergs because I don't think they could contribute). Although I would say that (1) Flash was just as unlikely to wall himself in on any other map, so Bisu's zealots would have been just as effective. and (2) We know that bisu trained for flash, and that S2 trained for stats, but we don't know what other snipers were on the bench. Could fantasy have had a firebat drop strat prepared for stats? Maybe, but I doubt that the zealot harass and the hydra-ling bust were the only tricks prepared by SKT. Still, Flash first would have made for an interesting finals. But KT had no reason to expect that S2 would get a 3 kill.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On April 13 2011 18:15 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 17:49 popzags wrote:
I don't understand the choice of KT coach to field Crazy-Hydra for set 2. I mean, come on, s2 is a ZvZ sniper sent out on Zerg map to beat a player who was most likely to play Zerg too. He was practising hella lot ZvZ for sure, so trying to eliminate him with this race looks mehworthy.
Looking back at this, I think KT should have just sent Flash as his starter. This way, he would dodge Aztec no matter what happened. I think the skill gap between him and s2 was enough to compensate for map imbalance, especially when literally noone expected Terran to be fielded on Bloody Ridge. The 5 hydra 24 zergling attack was a prepared build for stats, so KT accurately diagnosed that S2 was looking to take out stats. For all the talk about s2 being a "zerg sniper," check out his vZ stats and his vP stats. Assuming that they wanted to save flash, CH was just their best player left. CH didn't have a shot to beat bisu or fantasy, so a chance to take out S2 was worth it (unless you want to use CH to take out SKT's 4th, but either stats or flash shouldn't have too much of a problem against anyone else (although any of them could had had a special build like S2). Sending Flash first would have been interesting. Would had put a bisu MU on a more favorable map, and S2 would had been killed instantly, so stats could have been used later (ignoring the zergs because I don't think they could contribute). Although I would say that (1) Flash was just as unlikely to wall himself in on any other map, so Bisu's zealots would have been just as effective. and (2) We know that bisu trained for flash, and that S2 trained for stats, but we don't know what other snipers were on the bench. Could fantasy have had a firebat drop strat prepared for stats? Maybe, but I doubt that the zealot harass and the hydra-ling bust were the only tricks prepared by SKT. Still, Flash first would have made for an interesting finals. But KT had no reason to expect that S2 would get a 3 kill.
I think they should have sent Flash second, not sending him first is pretty understandable since it is the least predictable match, but sending a zerg against s2 is just retarded. Sending Stats out after CH, I feel was also a mistep, since I feel stats is better used as a sniper vs Fantasy/Bisu, to risk him losing in a pvz (there is always risk in pvz no matter how good you are) vs a player that KT had no business needing to 'snipe' felt like a total waste. After Stats and Flash, I can honestly say no other player on the entire KT matchup even matter vs Bisu, and perhaps only Action had much chance vs Fantasy.
I felt they should probably have gone with CH on the opening match, as I feel action has the better zvt and zvp, leaving CH with not much of a role other than maybe taking some matches off the SKT backline(which he didn't even manage). I don't feel like any of the SKT backline(except maybe at a stretch, Ssak) stood any realistic chance vs Flash. So I felt they were better off using Flash as their backbone, and Stats and Action to try and beat the SKT aces should they beat Flash. Rather than wasting their potential snipers on the skt backline, then leaving Flash open to snipe from the entire SKT ace lineup.
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On April 13 2011 18:07 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:17 Sawamura wrote:On April 13 2011 14:47 Doraemon wrote:On April 13 2011 13:12 Sawamura wrote:On April 13 2011 09:33 Crisium wrote:
The only thing boring about Flash is that he does the same damn thing nearly every game, and every bloody matchup. No matter what he just can't help but win. you are a freaking troll because apparently you didn't bother to read a post above me which has flash v grape which has non standard game's mnm and tanks is that the same thing flash do every game I don't think so. the post highlights 2 out of 10 games the above poster also mentioned "nearly" every game. read more carefully and flame less. Flash Is terran after all do you expect him to do a TVT dropship play like the game he versus best for every TVP match up he plays ? That's pretty absurd after all flash do play very defensively like all t's does in their match up in tvp .So you can say boring all you want but that's how he work's and i am just stating that he isn't all turtle in game all the time with the few references of him vs jaehoon and grape plus best . I am not flaming because it's as if all skt fanboys like to take it personal and take on flash and expecting kt fan's not to respond to such comments. Im actually a Flash fan only slightly less than i am a Bisu fan, so i feel that my point of view is pretty objective. I cant say for other threads, since i have not read them all, but as far as this thread is concerned, the flame war starts when some KT fans got tired of blaming Aztec imbalance-ness, and turned on Bisu and branded him with cheesing, some also did lable SKT as a boring team w boring play n such. As the die-hard Bisu fans that we are, many rose to his defence, some crossed the line and took a few cheap shots at Flash too. While Flash does indeed favor defensive play, in this season he probably did more creative build vP than all other Ts combined (minus maybe Fantasy). So he is (imo) definitely not a boring player. That said, he got outplayed/outprepared this time, better luck in MSL .
I think your missing the point. IMO the reason a lot of people consider Flash a boring player is due to his overpower turtle play.
On April 13 2011 18:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 18:15 hacklebeast wrote:On April 13 2011 17:49 popzags wrote:
I don't understand the choice of KT coach to field Crazy-Hydra for set 2. I mean, come on, s2 is a ZvZ sniper sent out on Zerg map to beat a player who was most likely to play Zerg too. He was practising hella lot ZvZ for sure, so trying to eliminate him with this race looks mehworthy.
Looking back at this, I think KT should have just sent Flash as his starter. This way, he would dodge Aztec no matter what happened. I think the skill gap between him and s2 was enough to compensate for map imbalance, especially when literally noone expected Terran to be fielded on Bloody Ridge. The 5 hydra 24 zergling attack was a prepared build for stats, so KT accurately diagnosed that S2 was looking to take out stats. For all the talk about s2 being a "zerg sniper," check out his vZ stats and his vP stats. Assuming that they wanted to save flash, CH was just their best player left. CH didn't have a shot to beat bisu or fantasy, so a chance to take out S2 was worth it (unless you want to use CH to take out SKT's 4th, but either stats or flash shouldn't have too much of a problem against anyone else (although any of them could had had a special build like S2). Sending Flash first would have been interesting. Would had put a bisu MU on a more favorable map, and S2 would had been killed instantly, so stats could have been used later (ignoring the zergs because I don't think they could contribute). Although I would say that (1) Flash was just as unlikely to wall himself in on any other map, so Bisu's zealots would have been just as effective. and (2) We know that bisu trained for flash, and that S2 trained for stats, but we don't know what other snipers were on the bench. Could fantasy have had a firebat drop strat prepared for stats? Maybe, but I doubt that the zealot harass and the hydra-ling bust were the only tricks prepared by SKT. Still, Flash first would have made for an interesting finals. But KT had no reason to expect that S2 would get a 3 kill. I think they should have sent Flash second, not sending him first is pretty understandable since it is the least predictable match, but sending a zerg against s2 is just retarded. Sending Stats out after CH, I feel was also a mistep, since I feel stats is better used as a sniper vs Fantasy/Bisu, to risk him losing in a pvz (there is always risk in pvz no matter how good you are) vs a player that KT had no business needing to 'snipe' felt like a total waste. After Stats and Flash, I can honestly say no other player on the entire KT matchup even matter vs Bisu, and perhaps only Action had much chance vs Fantasy. I felt they should probably have gone with CH on the opening match, as I feel action has the better zvt and zvp, leaving CH with not much of a role other than maybe taking some matches off the SKT backline(which he didn't even manage). I don't feel like any of the SKT backline(except maybe at a stretch, Ssak) stood any realistic chance vs Flash. So I felt they were better off using Flash as their backbone, and Stats and Action to try and beat the SKT aces should they beat Flash. Rather than wasting their potential snipers on the skt backline, then leaving Flash open to snipe from the entire SKT ace lineup.
I dont think sending Flash out second would be a good idea. I think KT coach's were scared of Flash getting sniped by a zerg (hyuk) if he wouldve defeated s2. The 3rd map was icarus and with bad spawn for terran it is a huge disadvantage. For example hyuk vs flash or the recent jd vs fantasy.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On April 13 2011 19:13 BreakerD wrote:
I dont think sending Flash out second would be a good idea. I think KT coach's were scared of Flash getting sniped by a zerg (hyuk) if he wouldve defeated s2. The 3rd map was icarus and with bad spawn for terran it is a huge disadvantage. For example hyuk vs flash or the recent jd vs fantasy.
The problem is the entire KT lineup, except Flash is pretty shaky vs zergs. If Flash was sniped by hyuk, KT would basically be screwed anyway.
As I see it it was at it's core, a 2 man team, vs a 2 man team, E.g Flash/Stats vs Bisu/Fantasy, then they would both hope for the support cast to clean up as much as possible. The problem for KT is that neither team wanted to commit their main players, and each SKT zerg is pretty much better at zvz than each KT zerg. Throwing your zergs against a zerg that is legitimately good at zvz is a bad idea, but losing one of your main players to their support cast pretty much dooms you.
So basically I felt that, s2> action, s2> CH in the greater scheme of things didn't matter that much, though it certainly helped SKT's position by taking down KT's safety net. But s2 > Stats was a massive moment, that pretty much won the whole match. I think many people would agree with me that s2 > Flash was a fairly unlikely result and there would be far less risk in sending Flash vs s2, and would likely leave you Stats to snipe the SKT's aces, which I feel the rest of KT had basically no hope in hell of doing.
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I love how KT Fans are still delusional about Action's capability of being good. Wake up guys, I would consider Shine, Soulkey and even Calm better than him, I dont even want to talk about JD or Zero.
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Well i guess im one of those people that are still impressed with that game he had vs Flash then. Action's problem (imo) is his nerve.. And once he learn how to get pass that, he will be pretty good me think.
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Sayle,
thanks for the great job man!
I watch from 2 sources usually, TV and TL stream (along with LR purposes)
Since you announced you'll be casting I've also been following your stream,
just to see how the games look like casted in English.
I can still remember you raging over the PPP. LOL
That was crazy indeed!
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On April 13 2011 23:12 hitthat wrote:
I love how KT Fans are still delusional about Action's capability of being good. Wake up guys, I would consider Shine, Soulkey and even Calm better than him, I dont even want to talk about JD or Zero.
Blasphemy!
How dare you speak the name of the ONE TRUE GOD among these mere mortals!
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EPT
