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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On June 13 2010 16:20 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 16:12 Hot_Bid wrote:On June 13 2010 16:02 J1.au wrote:On June 13 2010 15:56 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 13 2010 15:50 J1.au wrote:On June 13 2010 15:49 Hot_Bid wrote:On June 13 2010 15:40 Plexa wrote:On June 13 2010 15:39 Spyfire242 wrote:On June 13 2010 15:37 Plexa wrote:On June 13 2010 15:28 Waxangel wrote:[quote] plexa was wrong, though  What? because iloveoov never lost TvTs to players? Or Savior never losing to Yooi?Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance  ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least. As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled. If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate. if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas. Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference. Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false. Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash. Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash. You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it. Completely disagree. Firstly, I'm not claiming Flash is a bonjwa and that blog i wrote was complete garbage as you can see from my fantasy team and the latest PR. More importantly, no one called savior a "bonjwa" during his prime - they simply called him the best. Even the biggest Flash anti-fan would be foolish to call Flash not the best player in the world right now. I would argue that this has been the case since December at the very least. Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses). You can't look back on Jaedong, Bisu, July, Nal_ra etc and say that they were a bonjwa since you can't say throughout their career that they were the undisputed best for an extended period of time. And you won't be able to make those claims about Flash for a while yet.
Mod war!
Go!
<3
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On June 13 2010 15:50 McDonalds wrote:Music appeals to more people than professional video game playing. What a surprise.
Lol clever guy.
Watching pop through stream is new to me. and the message was obviously sarcastic.
Did you really think that I thought Music < Starcraft in worldwide?.
Keep on good work on forums.
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From what I see nobody is saying Flash is a bonjwa, at least not seriously. Just flamebaiters preemptively saying "lololol how can Flash be bonjaw he lost again roflnub" and "lololol see plexa is wrong" and thereby starting the huge discussion. As usual, I suppose.
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On June 13 2010 16:20 Plexa wrote:
You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses).
Are you sure this is a matter of consensus and not spurious e-hype? As much as I think Flash is a great player, I don't think we are talking about controversy so much as extreme asspain. There was nothing controversial about any of his recent losses really. It's just that people expected him to win and then he lost and it is all magnified by stupid forum comments.
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On June 13 2010 16:20 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 16:12 Hot_Bid wrote:On June 13 2010 16:02 J1.au wrote:On June 13 2010 15:56 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 13 2010 15:50 J1.au wrote:On June 13 2010 15:49 Hot_Bid wrote:On June 13 2010 15:40 Plexa wrote:On June 13 2010 15:39 Spyfire242 wrote:On June 13 2010 15:37 Plexa wrote:On June 13 2010 15:28 Waxangel wrote:[quote] plexa was wrong, though What? because iloveoov never lost TvTs to players? Or Savior never losing to Yooi?Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least. As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled. If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate. if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas. Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference. Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false. Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash. Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash. You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it. Completely disagree. Firstly, I'm not claiming Flash is a bonjwa and that blog i wrote was complete garbage as you can see from my fantasy team and the latest PR. More importantly, no one called savior a "bonjwa" during his prime - they simply called him the best. Even the biggest Flash anti-fan would be foolish to call Flash not the best player in the world right now. I would argue that this has been the case since December at the very least. Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses). You can't look back on Jaedong, Bisu, July, Nal_ra etc and say that they were a bonjwa since you can't say throughout their career that they were the undisputed best for an extended period of time. And you won't be able to make those claims about Flash for a while yet.
Well, that's how it's been so far. Since bonjwa wasn't an established term during previous periods of dominance, it's had to be used retrospectively. Since it's an accepted term now, its use may vary- the very fact that we're even having discussions of whether Flash / Bisu / Jaedong / whoever is bonjwa or not hints at this.
If Flash were to win both of the upcoming Starleagues, I wouldn't be surprised to see the korean scene declare him bonjwa there and then.
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On June 13 2010 16:28 -Desu- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 15:50 McDonalds wrote:On June 13 2010 15:47 -Desu- wrote:
K-Pop > Baby vs Flash ACE .. lol... Music appeals to more people than professional video game playing. What a surprise. Lol clever guy. Watching pop through stream is new to me. and the message was obviously sarcastic. Did you really think that I thought Music < Starcraft in worldwide?. Keep on good work on forums.
You thought it enough to post about it twice, so yes.
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On June 13 2010 16:20 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 16:12 Hot_Bid wrote:On June 13 2010 16:02 J1.au wrote:On June 13 2010 15:56 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 13 2010 15:50 J1.au wrote:On June 13 2010 15:49 Hot_Bid wrote:On June 13 2010 15:40 Plexa wrote:On June 13 2010 15:39 Spyfire242 wrote:On June 13 2010 15:37 Plexa wrote:On June 13 2010 15:28 Waxangel wrote:[quote] plexa was wrong, though What? because iloveoov never lost TvTs to players? Or Savior never losing to Yooi?Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least. As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled. If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate. if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas. Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference. Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false. Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash. Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash. You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it. Completely disagree. Firstly, I'm not claiming Flash is a bonjwa and that blog i wrote was complete garbage as you can see from my fantasy team and the latest PR. More importantly, no one called savior a "bonjwa" during his prime - they simply called him the best. Even the biggest Flash anti-fan would be foolish to call Flash not the best player in the world right now. I would argue that this has been the case since December at the very least. Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses). You can't look back on Jaedong, Bisu, July, Nal_ra etc and say that they were a bonjwa since you can't say throughout their career that they were the undisputed best for an extended period of time. And you won't be able to make those claims about Flash for a while yet.
If Flash is the undisputed best, explain to me why Jaedong was the slight favorite to win the MSL (even among progamers)? Yes, Flash ended up playing superbly and winning the finals convincingly but why wasn't he the clear favorite in the first place despite the fact that Flash easily has the best TvZ and Jaedong's ZvT is by far his weakest MU? Even for the NATE MSL finals, Flash was the favorite there, but not by a huge margin.
Isn't that what being a bonjwa is all about? The expectations? I realize that there will always be upsets and random losses even with the greatest players, that's not the reason why Flash isn't bonjwa. Flash isn't bonjwa because there always seems to be this doubt about his ability to perform in high pressure situations...a doubt that is continuously enforced by Flash (NATE MSL finals, Korean Air OSL finals, last 5 PL Ace games). A player can have the the best win percentage ever in all MUs, but when there's so much worry about him "choking", it's pretty obvious that he has a long way to go before he attains bonjwa status.
Hell, even Jaedong inspires more confidence than Flash when it comes to performing in a finals or an Ace match (atleast he does for me, can't speak for others).
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Nooo, I missed all the games and it seems like most of them very really awesome =(
(Also, Roro didn't play, again -.-)
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United States47024 Posts
On June 13 2010 16:56 DarkMatter_ wrote:
If Flash is the undisputed best, explain to me why Jaedong was the slight favorite to win the MSL (even among progamers)? Yes, Flash ended up playing superbly and winning the finals convincingly but why wasn't he the clear favorite in the first place despite the fact that Flash easily has the best TvZ and Jaedong's ZvT is by far his weakest MU? Even for the NATE MSL finals, Flash was the favorite there, but not by a huge margin.
Jaedong was the favorite because of their Bo5 history, because Flash had up to that point never won a Bo5 against Jaedong. All but one of those Bo5s was played before Flash's period of dominance, and should not be relevant to any sensible analysis of favorites (how good Flash and Jaedong were 2 years ago shouldn't be relevant when discussing how good they are now).
On June 13 2010 16:56 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Isn't that what being a bonjwa is all about? The expectations? I realize that there will always be upsets and random losses even with the greatest players, that's not the reason why Flash isn't bonjwa. Flash isn't bonjwa because there always seems to be this doubt about his ability to perform in high pressure situations...a doubt that is continuously enforced by Flash [b/(NATE MSL finals, Korean Air OSL finals, last 5 PL Ace games). A player can have the the best win percentage ever in all MUs, but when there's so much worry about him "choking", it's pretty obvious that he has a long way to go before he attains bonjwa status. [/b]
I think this is where a lot of the debate stems from. Flash has created for himself a schedule that's more demanding than any other player in the history of Starcraft. He's played more ace matches probably than any other player, with Jaedong being the only one who could probably contend that. And consecutive double finals just shows he plays more individual league games than any other player. The question is whether that should be factored into an analysis of his dominance: is a player that can't qualify for one starleague and is mediocre in proleague, but unbeatable in the other (i.e. Savior) a more dominant player than someone who has to ace match every proleague match and makes the finals in both leagues, but drops one of them?
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United States47024 Posts
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Also, the whole "if Flash isn't bonjwa (or close to it), there wouldn't be controversy about him losing" argument is not a very accurate explanation regarding why there's controversy about him losing. The controversy is the result of the numerous fanboys proclaiming Flash as the ultimate God/bonjwa of SC. People make a big deal out of him losing because of the Flash fanboys, not because we believe that Flash losing to Baby or Hiya is the most unbelievable and impossible result ever. If people stopped calling him the God of SC, people wouldn't make such a big deal out of him losing.
Besides, it's not like there was no controversy about JD losing to the likes of Baby and Ruby. Does that mean he's walking the path of the bonjwa too?
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On June 13 2010 16:56 DarkMatter_ wrote:
If Flash is the undisputed best, explain to me why Jaedong was the slight favorite to win the MSL (even among progamers)? Yes, Flash ended up playing superbly and winning the finals convincingly but why wasn't he the clear favorite in the first place despite the fact that Flash easily has the best TvZ and Jaedong's ZvT is by far his weakest MU? Even for the NATE MSL finals, Flash was the favorite there, but not by a huge margin.
Isn't that what being a bonjwa is all about? The expectations? I realize that there will always be upsets and random losses even with the greatest players, that's not the reason why Flash isn't bonjwa. Flash isn't bonjwa because there always seems to be this doubt about his ability to perform in high pressure situations...a doubt that is continuously enforced by Flash (NATE MSL finals, Korean Air OSL finals, last 5 PL Ace games). A player can have the the best win percentage ever in all MUs, but when there's so much worry about him "choking", it's pretty obvious that he has a long way to go before he attains bonjwa status.
Hell, even Jaedong inspires more confidence than Flash when it comes to performing in a finals or an Ace match (atleast he does for me, can't speak for others).
Because Flash lost in the NATE MSL and lost to Effort in the OSL a very short period of time before the MSL finals (re: why jaedong was slight favourite).
The idea that Flash "chokes" is misguided. Flash is 3 in 5 in Finals, and that is a good record. He lost 1 in controversial circumstances and perhaps only the other can be considered a "choke". And it is because of the latter alone that Flash may be perceived as a choker by people, but that notion should be extinguished when Flash beat jaedong in such a dominating fashion, but is perpetuated by anti-fans([?] hesitant to use this term but I can't think of other labels) who find joy in playing Devil's Advocate to the general consensus that Flash is the best player right now. Seriously, of what significance is the 5 ace match losses? They only matter IF STX catches up(and they haven't). KT is practically confirmed a finals place either way, so this is hardly important at all.
On June 13 2010 17:12 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Also, the whole "if Flash isn't bonjwa (or close to it), there wouldn't be controversy about him losing" argument is not a very accurate explanation regarding why there's controversy about him losing. The controversy is the result of the numerous fanboys proclaiming Flash as the ultimate God/bonjwa of SC. People make a big deal out of him losing because of the Flash fanboys, not because we believe that Flash losing to Baby or Hiya is the most unbelievable and impossible result ever. If people stopped calling him the God of SC, people wouldn't make such a big deal out of him losing.
Besides, it's not like there was no controversy about JD losing to the likes of Baby and Ruby. Does that mean he's walking the path of the bonjwa too?
I don't mean to sound condescending, but obviously fanboys will be fanboys and them proclaiming things like that shouldn't be taken seriously(though I admit it is very annoying). It's hard not to be indulgent in gushing when a player you support is dominating. Also I don't get what you're trying to say here. Obviously when a dominating player loses it creates controversy. In fact, your JD example proves that.
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Going to break away from the Flash bonjwa debate, and say, "FUCK YEAH WEMADE!"
Wemade's finally breaking out. A win against KT is also good, seeing as right now, there's a clusterfuck of teams jockeying for playoff eligibility. The more wins the better.
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I love how the arguments people are using against Flash bonjwa nowadays are exactly the same as the ones used against Jaedong a year ago.
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Jaedong was the favorite because of their Bo5 history, because Flash had up to that point never won a Bo5 against Jaedong. All but one of those Bo5s was played before Flash's period of dominance, and should not be relevant to any sensible analysis of favorites (how good Flash and Jaedong were 2 years ago shouldn't be relevant when discussing how good they are now).
If Flash is the undisputed best player, then why were so many people (including many progamers) influenced by those factors when picking a favorite?
I think this is where a lot of the debate stems from. Flash has created for himself a schedule that's more demanding than any other player in the history of Starcraft. He's played more ace matches probably than any other player, with Jaedong being the only one who could probably contend that. And consecutive double finals just shows he plays more individual league games than any other player. The question is whether that should be factored into an analysis of his dominance: is a player that can't qualify for one starleague and is mediocre in proleague, but unbeatable in the other (i.e. Savior) a more dominant player than someone who has to ace match every proleague match and makes the finals in both leagues, but drops one of them?
Schedule is irrelevant to my point. This is about expectations. Schedule can have a significant impact on results, but not on expectations.
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Because Flash lost in the NATE MSL and lost to Effort in the OSL a very short period of time before the MSL finals (re: why jaedong was slight favourite).
You're all missing my point. I'm aware about why there was doubt. It was more of a rhetorical question. My point is that if he's an undisputed best player or a bonjwa, then it means that he's so fucking good that he is almost unanimously viewed as the clear favorite regardless of past results. That has never been the case with Flash against Jaedong. And now I don't feel that way about him even against the likes of Baby.
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On June 13 2010 17:15 POWEROUTAGE wrote:
The idea that Flash "chokes" is misguided. Flash is 3 in 5 in Finals, and that is a good record. He lost 1 in controversial circumstances and perhaps only the other can be considered a "choke". And it is because of the latter alone that Flash may be perceived as a choker by people, but that notion should be extinguished when Flash beat jaedong in such a dominating fashion, but is perpetuated by anti-fans([?] hesitant to use this term but I can't think of other labels) who find joy in playing Devil's Advocate to the general consensus that Flash is the best player right now. Seriously, of what significance is the 5 ace match losses? They only matter IF STX catches up(and they haven't). KT is practically confirmed a finals place either way, so this is hardly important at all.
Not being a constant choker and being the best player isn't really equivalent to being dominant though, is it? I mean, if there is one thing we know about Starcraft, it's that the best player doesn't always win. And it's hard to say that someone is dominant when there is another guy people will point to and call the best.
On June 13 2010 17:23 cokencheese wrote:
I love how the arguments people are using against Flash bonjwa nowadays are exactly the same as the ones used against Jaedong a year ago.
Are you saying that Jaedong is a bonjwa then? Because it's been a year and I don't think anyone is really saying that now. I suspect that it will be the same for Flash if he doesn't perform in the near future.
Maybe they just need a new term for rivals who struggle against each other for a period of time without there being a clear winner.
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Plexa's bigotry towards Zerg is so stupid.
I could go on about this, but it's pretty clear from the bias he has against Jaedong he is clueless...
He even wrote articles about how he is just a dumb robotic player back in the day when he was creating the new ZvP blueprint, or ZvT blueprint, or everything else Zerg for that matter.
God, I remember raging so hard at the ignorance.
New Bonjwas won't exist. Get over it people.
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EPT
