So like, WeMade FOX is a solid team, right? They have BaBy, they have Midas, they have Shine, they have RorO. So explain to me why they got 3-0ed by MBCGame HERO last week? While we all love NaDa, it's probably not best to send him out to risk an 0-2...
But I digress, since I can't be mad at NaDa. Instead, I question those Coach Ha-like decision making skills. However, you know FOX is going to be on edge against KT for two reasons: first off, as we all know, KT is the number 1 ranked team. Though at this point I don't think anybody can overtake them, FOX still has to worry about its own position, since it's at a tenuous 5th place with a 25-22 record, and CJ with a 25-23 record is looking to snap them up. Stars, too, is not that far behind, and though it's a stretch, it can be seen that most teams could still fight for those crucial lower post-season spots. So tonight, FOX will be sending out its strongest Terrans, and fielding those pesky Zergs (so how many of you still have RorO on anti-team?) when needed. However, KT Rolster tends to be good against Terran. Violet, though I find him a sucky player, is statistically best against Terran, and he was the one to take out Light in the SWL finals after a grueling Match Point victory. Stats is also sexy against Terran, with a near-70% record of 34-15. However, Stats is not so hot against Zerg, eh?
You have a seed in the MSL, but you’ve never even gotten to the OSL before, why is this? -I always get PvZs in the Prelims, and I always get eliminated by Zergs.
...And then there's Flash, right? Flash, who has... wait, he's lost his last two Ace matches? To... HiyA and RuBy? The hell? I don't plan on blabbering anymore about Flash, but let's just say we love him or hate him for a reason (I love him).
So this match can very easily go to Ace. It all depends on who had their Wheaties for breakfast, and who was up all night on the toilet. And if it gets to Ace, Flash vs BaBy, if it happens, will be amazing. Remember the last time they played? It was damn close.
On June 13 2010 12:33 Grobyc wrote: If there's no one streaming the other one I'll do it - I'll wait and see who's linked their stream to it when it starts.
Also, don't you have a 50 cap still? o.O
Nah, switched to ustream. Solved the viewer cap and the technical issues. Much better choice lol.
ballzzz: hahahahah WRAITH! hellu: is this a turnement match? Missile Turret: LOL FLOAT ibreakurface: LOL BiffWebster changed their nickname to NukeTheStars. Organica: why doesnt he just leave the game CZ: FLY MY PRETTIES! wtfmang: wow ibreakurface: WTF MIDAS Capeesh: flash is now making more scvs to mine more minerals
smitsmcgee: they got killed dog22: LOL carebear91: lol wow melroseman: U CANT CATCH A VULTURE BITCHH smitsmcgee: they just didnt show it nanashinKTFingerboom: Look at that bad *** vuture. nukethestars: this is giving me the giggles nanashinKTFingerboom: OH SHI- dog22: ROFL Azndarkness: can't touch this nalho: lol smitsmcgee: hahahahahahahahaha carebear91: LOL
On June 13 2010 13:57 Doraemon wrote: shine..terrible...
More like Shine: the only Zerg more predictable than Kwanro. May work against Protoss where up to late-game they're in a strict reactionary role, but wow did that 2fac rape Shine's (only) build order.
Man, Coach Lee just can't catch a break. KT's coach almost never gets the matchups he wants. Tempest is a great snipe for Roro, but out comes Pure in a match that he can actually win. Hoejja would have been a much better pick here.
On June 13 2010 14:31 epi wrote: Man, Coach Lee just can't catch a break. KT's coach almost never gets the matchups he wants. Tempest is a great snipe for Roro, but out comes Pure in a match that he can actually win. Hoejja would have been a much better pick here.
nah he got flash's, forgg's, and stat's MUs right. 3/4 aint bad.
On June 13 2010 14:31 epi wrote: Man, Coach Lee just can't catch a break. KT's coach almost never gets the matchups he wants. Tempest is a great snipe for Roro, but out comes Pure in a match that he can actually win. Hoejja would have been a much better pick here.
nah he got flash's, forgg's, and stat's MUs right. 3/4 aint bad.
Anyone who has PvP knowledge want to tell me what Nex first in PvP does? More economy and get raped by tech or something? I'm not joking I have no idea how it fares versus one base.
On June 13 2010 14:38 JIJIyO wrote: Anyone who has PvP knowledge want to tell me what Nex first in PvP does? More economy and get raped by tech or something? I'm not joking I have no idea how it fares versus one base.
Typically toss goes for a 2 reaver push + shuttle like Tempest did
On June 13 2010 14:38 JIJIyO wrote: Anyone who has PvP knowledge want to tell me what Nex first in PvP does? More economy and get raped by tech or something? I'm not joking I have no idea how it fares versus one base.
Typically toss goes for a 2 reaver push + shuttle like Tempest did
Ah, ok thanks for the info.
It's really weird. I just watched the Flash vs Ruby VOD like 3 hours ago, and he had dyed hair. Now I see Flash with black hair. It just seems he got his hair done in 3 hours haha. Random, but it was something that crossed my mind.
On June 13 2010 14:49 dtnmang wrote: srsly, does KT have any ace player aside Flash?
Both Violet, Stats and ForGG have all won ace matches. But this close to playoffs and with STX breathing down KT's back for #1, KT really needs to snag every win possible, which means abusing Flash while he's not busy with starleagues.
You don't own the best player in the world and then not play him.
UGHGHGH I want to see this sooo badly but my internet isn't working so I'm on my blackberry TTTTTTT I'm depending on you LR-ers!!!!! (Thank you guys :3)
On June 13 2010 14:49 dtnmang wrote: srsly, does KT have any ace player aside Flash?
Does KT need another one?
If KT keeps sending Flash then other team just needs someone to practice Flash-sniping tactics the day before. Now to defeat KT, a team needs to win 2 games and a Flash sniper in ace match.
On June 13 2010 14:52 Smix wrote: UGHGHGH I want to see this sooo badly but my internet isn't working so I'm on my blackberry TTTTTTT I'm depending on you LR-ers!!!!! (Thank you guys :3)
This shit is terrible. I kind of want to hang myself with my belt; holy shit. I never thought I'd be longing to hear girl's generation or some other trash.
On June 13 2010 14:55 I_Love_Bacon wrote: This shit is terrible. I kind of want to hang myself with my belt; holy shit. I never thought I'd be longing to hear girl's generation or some other trash.
On June 13 2010 14:49 dtnmang wrote: srsly, does KT have any ace player aside Flash?
Does KT need another one?
If KT keeps sending Flash then other team just needs someone to practice Flash-sniping tactics the day before. Now to defeat KT, a team needs to win 2 games and a Flash sniper in ace match.
The theory, which is the same one Hite and Oz tend to apply, is that their Ace is strong enough to win regardless. It usually works, but not always. (And it may've been easier in the old format, when the ace player knew who they were playing in one of their sets.)
On June 13 2010 15:04 -Desu- wrote: BaBy should change his name, he is not a baby anymore
"Man" just doesn't have the same ring.
You're right, it sounds at least ten times more badass.
False! BaBy is cute :3
TY with a wraith attacking the offending barracks. LOL Flash lands it! Wraith ground attack < air attack yeahhhh~
Flash hiding his units from the wraith's sight! Two tanks, a few marines and a few goliaths. Flash taking third. BaBy's scouting wraith driven back by goliaths.
BaBy taking his third. Flash's was a lot faster though!
Wraith + marine of BaBy's hunt down a scouting marine of Flash's. Maginot lines established in the middle! Tanks + wraith for BaBy vs goliaths + tank for flash.
Woah Flash in huge trouble. Tanks on his nat cliff. His 4th CC under attack by vults. And he just lost tanks to mines at his nat. Looks like he's losing this slowly.
LOL mine at 12 prevents CC from landing! SCVs maynarding back... BaBy with vultures and cloaked wraiths outside Flash's natural. Not rushing in though.
On June 13 2010 15:16 chosef wrote: This game is all over the place. Observer is having a hard time following all the action.
Dude I'm having trouble following everything @_@ Minimap is chaos! 5 wraiths assaulting tanks at 6! Vultures waiting to run in! Flash with tanks and gols to reinforce!
Ouch, 12:00 hasn't landed yet, though mine is gone. SCVs have already long-distanced... Wait one more round :3
Flash taking some map control, that CC was lifted for a real long time. Flash got vults headed to babys 4th to try to harass, but some tanks are there. baby still sieging Flash's 4th. baby takes 9 o clock too
baby pushes the middle and clears some of flashes forces!
Baby is insane. The more I watch him, the more I like him. He makes all matchups equally entertaining. If he macroes correctly and didn't lose too much with each bit of harassment he should win here. And there won't be any cheeses or BO advantages involved.
Flash finally starting to mine from his 4th again, but not for long. baby sets up another contain! Flash needs another expo, takes 3 o clock, but it hasnt been up long. babys 4th and 5th running fully.
flash going in for a push, but baby has a good position and flash backs off.
looking good for baby
baby pushes flash's position and takes it! his 5th is isolated now and getting shelled!
I hate flash, kinda glad he lost but sort of in disbelief that he;s lost 5 ace matches in a row
Baby played Flash level that game and Flash didn't seem to be at his best. Either way, glad he's losing because it just shows that he's not even remotely close to the "unbeatable" some of his fans make him out to be. xP
Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
On June 13 2010 15:24 tobi9999 wrote: I hate flash, kinda glad he lost but sort of in disbelief that he;s lost 5 ace matches in a row
Baby played Flash level that game and Flash didn't seem to be at his best. Either way, glad he's losing because it just shows that he's not even remotely close to the "unbeatable" some of his fans make him out to be. xP
who said that? Lots of Flash hate and it's getting more stupid than the flash fanboyism.
Every time Flash's opponent gets a Starport there's this long agonizing period where you hope Flash's goliaths are enough to deal with the fact that his own Starport is just never a priority.
Can someone who knows more about TvT please explain to me why Flash has been avoiding dropship play, is it because of the maps? I feel Flash is strongest when he is tank/goliath/dropship.
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
holy shit, he's lost a few games in the last month! SLUMP!
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
I wouldn't say this at all. Baby had excellent harrassment at 6 and positioning that would've broken a lesser Terran much faster. Flash still played very well.
"It is still too early to tell whether Flash will exert completely and utter dominance like Oov, Nada and Boxer did - but I will say we're getting close. This upcoming season will be the one where the debate is settled once and for all."
That's all I was pointing out
Personally don't care about bonjwa. No intention to start a hate fest at all Dx
On a different note... ugh, it's been like ten sets now that KT couldn't end before ace despite Flash winning his game. How can they be so bad? I'm sure it doesn't help Flash when he has to play the ace match every single time.
On June 13 2010 15:27 J1.au wrote: Can someone who knows more about TvT please explain to me why Flash has been avoiding dropship play, is it because of the maps? I feel Flash is strongest when he is tank/goliath/dropship.
This is what has got me confused and pissed off at flash for about a month now. Why does he stay away from dropships? Also he leaves like 3-5 tanks randomly out in the open that just gets sniped by vultures. Its really starting to be very irritating as a flash fan. Hes back to being the predictable flash of early 2009 once again.
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
holy shit, he's lost a few games in the last month! SLUMP!
Seriously, people. CALM DOWN.
I think the problem is that he is losing the high-pressure games.
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
Yeah man he's like 17 now, totally over the hill. Wonder when he'll apply for ACE.
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
holy shit, he's lost a few games in the last month! SLUMP!
Seriously, people. CALM DOWN.
I think the problem is that he is losing the high-pressure games.
Pressure has nothing to do with why he lost that game.
On June 13 2010 15:27 J1.au wrote: Can someone who knows more about TvT please explain to me why Flash has been avoiding dropship play, is it because of the maps? I feel Flash is strongest when he is tank/goliath/dropship.
This is what has got me confused and pissed off at flash for about a month now. Why does he stay away from dropships? Also he leaves like 3-5 tanks randomly out in the open that just gets sniped by vultures. Its really starting to be very irritating as a flash fan. Hes back to being the predictable flash of early 2009 once again.
He's having a new "I can play TvZ without turrets" phase.
Ah, good to see the internet hasn't let me down and everybody is quickly jumping aboard the OMGSLUMP train. He's what, 4-3 since the MSL? And let's be real about this last game; There is 0 shame in losing to Baby as he has been playing out of his mind and I'd pick him as my horse in almost any race today.
On June 13 2010 15:31 okum wrote: Flash was bonjwa before this month
On a different note... ugh, it's been like ten sets now that KT couldn't end before ace despite Flash winning his game. How can they be so bad? I'm sure it doesn't help Flash when he has to play the ace match every single time.
I think people are really figuring him out now.
Before Flash would dominate and it wouldn't even look close. But nowadays every time he plays someone they always seem to be 1 step ahead, and the only wins Flash gets are with his superior mechanics/maphacks
Hope you guys enjoyed the games! I apologize for the technical difficulties in the beginning, but the stream finished nice and stable. I will see you guys tomorrow for the next PL match up! :D If i'm up at 2 AM my time that is. XD
That game was just flash getting outplayed, the wraiths made all the difference in breaking flash's push while flash had nothing to block baby's vultures forcing their way into the tank line.
Flash that game really went too aggressive when he should of secured his own bases, my guess is he underestimated baby's defenses and try to force a break and lost a lot of units without getting anything done in return.
"It is still too early to tell whether Flash will exert completely and utter dominance like Oov, Nada and Boxer did - but I will say we're getting close. This upcoming season will be the one where the debate is settled once and for all."
That's all I was pointing out
Personally don't care about bonjwa. No intention to start a hate fest at all Dx
On June 13 2010 15:31 okum wrote: Flash was bonjwa before this month
On a different note... ugh, it's been like ten sets now that KT couldn't end before ace despite Flash winning his game. How can they be so bad? I'm sure it doesn't help Flash when he has to play the ace match every single time.
KT are just back to their former self. I dont know what they ate in R1 and first half of R2, but it wasnt the normal Violet/KT zergs.
Last few games were I think only Stats and Flash winning their games. KT actually has to be really happy at Stats otherwise they'd lose 1-3 most of the time like last year.
Of course you cant win a PL final with Stats and Flash only.
Flash fan boys need to realize, when you are the player to beat for awhile, people start beating you, flash isn't unstoppable, and true fans won't be upset if he loses some games, I mean... at least you are not ACE fans! AM I RIGHT?? Or like me CJ fan 0-6 in 2 weeks is D: but I still love and root for them always!
On June 13 2010 15:33 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Ah, good to see the internet hasn't let me down and everybody is quickly jumping aboard the OMGSLUMP train. He's what, 4-3 since the MSL? And let's be real about this last game; There is 0 shame in losing to Baby as he has been playing out of his mind and I'd pick him as my horse in almost any race today.
Its also worth noting that this apparent "slump" is only in TvT games. Flash's TvT has been less than dominant for 3-4 months now. This really isn't newsworthy in the slightest.
Come back when a Protoss who isn't Snow beats Flash. THEN we'll talk about slumps.
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
holy shit, he's lost a few games in the last month! SLUMP!
Seriously, people. CALM DOWN.
I think the problem is that he is losing the high-pressure games.
On June 13 2010 15:35 Spyfire242 wrote: Flash fan boys need to realize, when you are the player to beat for awhile, people start beating you, flash isn't unstoppable, and true fans won't be upset if he loses some games, I mean... at least you are not ACE fans! AM I RIGHT?? Or like me CJ fan 0-6 in 2 weeks is D: but I still love and root for them always!
good point, you don't just stop supporting your team in basketball, football etc. just because they can't be the champion every season ar lose games.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
On June 13 2010 15:31 okum wrote: Flash was bonjwa before this month
On a different note... ugh, it's been like ten sets now that KT couldn't end before ace despite Flash winning his game. How can they be so bad? I'm sure it doesn't help Flash when he has to play the ace match every single time.
KT are just back to their former self. I dont know what they ate in R1 and first half of R2, but it wasnt the normal Violet/KT zergs.
Last few games were I think only Stats and Flash winning their games. KT actually has to be really happy at Stats otherwise they'd lose 1-3 most of the time like last year.
Of course you cant win a PL final with Stats and Flash only.
I actually think Lux was a big part of KT. Even when he doesnt keep winning there is always the fear of him all-ining his way to victory. Which is why i freaking hate Lux to death right now.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
holy shit, he's lost a few games in the last month! SLUMP!
Seriously, people. CALM DOWN.
I think the problem is that he is losing the high-pressure games.
He just beat Jaedong 3-0 in the MSL.
Doesn't get a whole lot more high-pressure...
Not trying to say Flash wasn't playing awesome in the finals.
But Jaedong played for shit those 3 games. The only time Flash was remotely at a disadvantage was in game 3, and he knew after the break failed he'd be on top.
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
holy shit, he's lost a few games in the last month! SLUMP!
Seriously, people. CALM DOWN.
I think the problem is that he is losing the high-pressure games.
He just beat Jaedong 3-0 in the MSL.
Doesn't get a whole lot more high-pressure...
That was a day or two after he lost three matches in a row to Effort. He might have had more to prove but I'd say the expectations were lower. And anyway, that was weeks ago.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
On June 13 2010 15:24 FuRong wrote: Man, Flash is seriously done for...if this keeps up for another month, he won't even be considered the best Terran, let alone the best player in the world...
holy shit, he's lost a few games in the last month! SLUMP!
Seriously, people. CALM DOWN.
I think the problem is that he is losing the high-pressure games.
He just beat Jaedong 3-0 in the MSL.
Doesn't get a whole lot more high-pressure...
Not trying to say Flash wasn't playing awesome in the finals.
But Jaedong played for shit those 3 games. The only time Flash was remotely at a disadvantage was in game 3, and he knew after the break failed he'd be on top.
That's my opinion anyway.
Off topic, but since when is getting away with 3hatch before pool against 14cc a disadvantage?
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
I am not saying it isn't possible, but there can't be any doubt coming from anyone (other than obvious trolls) for it to be true.
On June 13 2010 15:31 okum wrote: Flash was bonjwa before this month
On a different note... ugh, it's been like ten sets now that KT couldn't end before ace despite Flash winning his game. How can they be so bad? I'm sure it doesn't help Flash when he has to play the ace match every single time.
KT are just back to their former self. I dont know what they ate in R1 and first half of R2, but it wasnt the normal Violet/KT zergs.
Last few games were I think only Stats and Flash winning their games. KT actually has to be really happy at Stats otherwise they'd lose 1-3 most of the time like last year.
Of course you cant win a PL final with Stats and Flash only.
I actually think Lux was a big part of KT. Even when he doesnt keep winning there is always the fear of him all-ining his way to victory. Which is why i freaking hate Lux to death right now.
Shouldnt you hate KT zergs' coach more? Lux was just a bought player.
On June 13 2010 15:31 okum wrote: Flash was bonjwa before this month
On a different note... ugh, it's been like ten sets now that KT couldn't end before ace despite Flash winning his game. How can they be so bad? I'm sure it doesn't help Flash when he has to play the ace match every single time.
KT are just back to their former self. I dont know what they ate in R1 and first half of R2, but it wasnt the normal Violet/KT zergs.
Last few games were I think only Stats and Flash winning their games. KT actually has to be really happy at Stats otherwise they'd lose 1-3 most of the time like last year.
Of course you cant win a PL final with Stats and Flash only.
I actually think Lux was a big part of KT. Even when he doesnt keep winning there is always the fear of him all-ining his way to victory. Which is why i freaking hate Lux to death right now.
Shouldnt you hate KT zergs' coach more? Lux was just a bought player.
What does being a bought player have to do with anything?
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
I am not saying it isn't possible, but there can't be any doubt coming from anyone (other than obvious trolls) for it to be true.
Bonjwa is a retrospective term. We'll look back after Flash starts suckingn and go "yup, he was a bonjwa 100%" or go "no, he was pretty inconsistent"
This is where we take a moment to admire the feat that is JvZ.
The important thing to note about this bonjwa silliness is that proleague results don't really matter -- it's all about the starleagues. So this "yes he's bonjwa", "no he's not" after every proleague game is kinda ridiculous, and has been since the Winners League.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
With all due respect, losing 5 ace games in a row in fact is a big deal.
and I am watching the savior vs Yooi game. Yooi opened with some weird 1 base dropship -> wraith play + the map is freaking 815
I get what you're trying to say about how the previous bonjwas weren't perfect, but nowadays the standards have become higher as Jaedong and Bisu dominated for periods of time without being close to being called Bonjwa
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
If he does get B'ed I call writing a uh... TLFE on it! GREEK STYLE
On June 13 2010 15:31 okum wrote: Flash was bonjwa before this month
On a different note... ugh, it's been like ten sets now that KT couldn't end before ace despite Flash winning his game. How can they be so bad? I'm sure it doesn't help Flash when he has to play the ace match every single time.
KT are just back to their former self. I dont know what they ate in R1 and first half of R2, but it wasnt the normal Violet/KT zergs.
Last few games were I think only Stats and Flash winning their games. KT actually has to be really happy at Stats otherwise they'd lose 1-3 most of the time like last year.
Of course you cant win a PL final with Stats and Flash only.
I actually think Lux was a big part of KT. Even when he doesnt keep winning there is always the fear of him all-ining his way to victory. Which is why i freaking hate Lux to death right now.
Shouldnt you hate KT zergs' coach more? Lux was just a stinkin' cheat.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Agreed. Winning OSL and MSL simultaneously would be a statement as powerful as they can get.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
The reason Flash isn't bonjwa yet is that he's only been dominant for two seasons. All the bonjwas were indisputably the best player for at least 3 straight seasons. Flash was the best player in the NATE/EVER season and the KA1/Hana Daetoo season, but before that Jaedong was pretty much universally agreed to be better than him. If he remains the indisputable best player for the KA2/bigfile season he should be bonjwa.
Ouch, three ace matches this round is probably going to cost us first spot, hopefully flash can come back and do some incredible shit in the next few matches
On June 13 2010 16:04 Scaramanga wrote: Ouch, three ace matches this round is probably going to cost us first spot, hopefully flash can come back and do some incredible shit in the next few matches
flash needs to be super dominant pretty much from here out to be considered bonjwa anytime soon. otherwise he needs a lot more time. To me the larger margin you are winning by the earlier you are bonjwa. If he is just the winningest but not by a lot he needs to be the winningest for a long time like 4 years.
On June 13 2010 16:03 Spyfire242 wrote: Except everyone should agree at the time.
"Everyone" is stretching it, given that there will be rabid fanboys who disagree for the sake of disagreeing (but we're not there yet).
I think the main point is that you can't say that "Flash didn't do X" or "Flash lost X game, and that invalidates him." He can't be invalidated for something where the only criterion is consensus.
On June 13 2010 16:06 yomi wrote: flash needs to be super dominant pretty much from here out to be considered bonjwa anytime soon. otherwise he needs a lot more time. To me the larger margin you are winning by the earlier you are bonjwa. If he is just the winningest but not by a lot he needs to be the winningest for a long time like 4 years.
Only one Bonjwa had a period of success anywhere close to that long. And he was also absurdly dominant during that time too.
God decided that flash was not worth the enlightenment and gave it to baby instead.
Nah, i guess its just that flash keeps on cutting corners in his build so that he can gain that solid midgame advantage to help solidify his lategame advantage
Really miss his dropship play last year winter, i remember a pl game between him and fantasy where he completely manhandled fantasy with his superior game sense + dropship play even though i dont really like him
Why must every thread that Flash/KT plays end with 5-6 pages of bonjwa discussion. He isn't one until he is, and everyone will know when is that; so why the stupid rehashed arguments?
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash.
Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash.
You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it.
On June 13 2010 16:10 POWEROUTAGE wrote: Why must every thread that Flash/KT plays end with 5-6 pages of bonjwa discussion. He isn't one until he is, and everyone will know when is that; so why the stupid rehashed arguments?
DON'T FIGHT IT, you will only be disappointed next time KT plays.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
Except everyone should agree at the time.
That will never be good enough for people in love with nostalgia. People that keep thinking Flash should be able to emulate boxer or nada all the time.
On June 13 2010 16:10 POWEROUTAGE wrote: Why must every thread that Flash/KT plays end with 5-6 pages of bonjwa discussion. He isn't one until he is, and everyone will know when is that; so why the stupid rehashed arguments?
On June 13 2010 16:13 ZlaSHeR wrote: Flash: 0-3 in Aces last 3 weeks...killing me man...absolutely killing me...
KT has locked in a playoff spot, so it's not that big a deal... unless he fails in a playoff super-ace.
Being seeded directly to the PL grand finals is a pretty big deal, IMO. What could've been a shoe-in will instead be a neck-and-neck race from here on.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash.
Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash.
You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it.
Completely disagree. Firstly, I'm not claiming Flash is a bonjwa and that blog i wrote was complete garbage as you can see from my fantasy team and the latest PR. More importantly, no one called savior a "bonjwa" during his prime - they simply called him the best. Even the biggest Flash anti-fan would be foolish to call Flash not the best player in the world right now. I would argue that this has been the case since December at the very least.
Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses). You can't look back on Jaedong, Bisu, July, Nal_ra etc and say that they were a bonjwa since you can't say throughout their career that they were the undisputed best for an extended period of time. And you won't be able to make those claims about Flash for a while yet.
On June 13 2010 16:13 ZlaSHeR wrote: Flash: 0-3 in Aces last 3 weeks...killing me man...absolutely killing me...
KT has locked in a playoff spot, so it's not that big a deal... unless he fails in a playoff super-ace.
There are no more super aces, its three Bo7s
Ah okay. Well then the other teams better really hope CJ doesn't make it then because this format helps us so much rofl.
I REALLY want to see SKT vs CJ in this format. 3x Bo7 seems to emphasize good lineup selection, and seeing two of the best lineup-producing coaches try to snipe one another could create some interesting results.
On June 13 2010 16:13 ZlaSHeR wrote: Flash: 0-3 in Aces last 3 weeks...killing me man...absolutely killing me...
KT has locked in a playoff spot, so it's not that big a deal... unless he fails in a playoff super-ace.
There are no more super aces, its three Bo7s
Ah okay. Well then the other teams better really hope CJ doesn't make it then because this format helps us so much rofl.
I REALLY want to see SKT vs CJ in this format. 3x Bo7 seems to emphasize good lineup selection, and seeing two of the best lineup-producing coaches try to snipe one another could create some interesting results.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash.
Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash.
You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it.
Completely disagree. Firstly, I'm not claiming Flash is a bonjwa and that blog i wrote was complete garbage as you can see from my fantasy team and the latest PR. More importantly, no one called savior a "bonjwa" during his prime - they simply called him the best. Even the biggest Flash anti-fan would be foolish to call Flash not the best player in the world right now. I would argue that this has been the case since December at the very least.
Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses). You can't look back on Jaedong, Bisu, July, Nal_ra etc and say that they were a bonjwa since you can't say throughout their career that they were the undisputed best for an extended period of time. And you won't be able to make those claims about Flash for a while yet.
You said he's "walking that path" and that means he's not bonjwa :/ Nobody is saying he can never be bonjwa, they're saying he isn't one now, no matter how many Flash fans want to believe otherwise.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash.
Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash.
You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it.
Completely disagree. Firstly, I'm not claiming Flash is a bonjwa and that blog i wrote was complete garbage as you can see from my fantasy team and the latest PR. More importantly, no one called savior a "bonjwa" during his prime - they simply called him the best. Even the biggest Flash anti-fan would be foolish to call Flash not the best player in the world right now. I would argue that this has been the case since December at the very least.
Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses). You can't look back on Jaedong, Bisu, July, Nal_ra etc and say that they were a bonjwa since you can't say throughout their career that they were the undisputed best for an extended period of time. And you won't be able to make those claims about Flash for a while yet.
From what I see nobody is saying Flash is a bonjwa, at least not seriously. Just flamebaiters preemptively saying "lololol how can Flash be bonjaw he lost again roflnub" and "lololol see plexa is wrong" and thereby starting the huge discussion. As usual, I suppose.
On June 13 2010 16:20 Plexa wrote: You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses).
Are you sure this is a matter of consensus and not spurious e-hype? As much as I think Flash is a great player, I don't think we are talking about controversy so much as extreme asspain. There was nothing controversial about any of his recent losses really. It's just that people expected him to win and then he lost and it is all magnified by stupid forum comments.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash.
Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash.
You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it.
Completely disagree. Firstly, I'm not claiming Flash is a bonjwa and that blog i wrote was complete garbage as you can see from my fantasy team and the latest PR. More importantly, no one called savior a "bonjwa" during his prime - they simply called him the best. Even the biggest Flash anti-fan would be foolish to call Flash not the best player in the world right now. I would argue that this has been the case since December at the very least.
Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses). You can't look back on Jaedong, Bisu, July, Nal_ra etc and say that they were a bonjwa since you can't say throughout their career that they were the undisputed best for an extended period of time. And you won't be able to make those claims about Flash for a while yet.
Well, that's how it's been so far. Since bonjwa wasn't an established term during previous periods of dominance, it's had to be used retrospectively. Since it's an accepted term now, its use may vary- the very fact that we're even having discussions of whether Flash / Bisu / Jaedong / whoever is bonjwa or not hints at this.
If Flash were to win both of the upcoming Starleagues, I wouldn't be surprised to see the korean scene declare him bonjwa there and then.
Flash lost, big deal. Being a bonjwa is more about winning and losing one game, it is how a player plays over an extended period of time. No player is going to have a 100% winrate, and Flash's losses are invariably to players to high caliber (not players like Yooi and Sync for instance ). The Bonjwa debate can't be settled until this season is over, at the very least.
As long as its a debate I don't think it will ever be settled.
If Flash dual finals again, I don't think there is much debate to be had but if Flash goes 0-3 in both leagues then equally there isn't much to debate.
if flash dual finals again and wins both then sure
but until then, he loses just as much as he wins in pressure situations
Sure, as long as we can agree that Boxer, iloveoov and Savior are no longer bonjwas.
Bonjwa isn't a fixed category. It's a title that was created for one player, Savior, and then awarded retroactively to three other players. There are no clear-cut requirements to become a bonjwa, and no specific metrics to measure one, so pointing to an older player and saying "he got away with only one OSL, unfair!" isn't going to make any difference.
Exactly. It isn't a fixed category, which is why saying Flash must meet a certain criteria to become one is false.
Well the easiest way to tell if someone is bonjwa is whether people agree that he's bonjwa. since so many people disagree about Flash, he's not bonjwa. The title is meaningless when only your fans think you are bonjwa. During those previous guys' careers, even their most hated anti-fans grudgingly accepted them as bonjwas. Its a title that is made legitimate by the non-Flash fans recognition of Flash.
Sure, this might be unfair now, and there may never be a bonjwa again. Nobody said the title or criteria for the title is fair. Flash is just unlucky that JD is around. But that doesn't mean they're both somehow bonwjas. If you notice, all the users calling Flash bonjwa (including Plexa, see his blog about Effort's OSL win) are hugely biased for Flash.
You need consensus to get the mantle, and Flash doesn't have it.
Completely disagree. Firstly, I'm not claiming Flash is a bonjwa and that blog i wrote was complete garbage as you can see from my fantasy team and the latest PR. More importantly, no one called savior a "bonjwa" during his prime - they simply called him the best. Even the biggest Flash anti-fan would be foolish to call Flash not the best player in the world right now. I would argue that this has been the case since December at the very least.
Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses). You can't look back on Jaedong, Bisu, July, Nal_ra etc and say that they were a bonjwa since you can't say throughout their career that they were the undisputed best for an extended period of time. And you won't be able to make those claims about Flash for a while yet.
If Flash is the undisputed best, explain to me why Jaedong was the slight favorite to win the MSL (even among progamers)? Yes, Flash ended up playing superbly and winning the finals convincingly but why wasn't he the clear favorite in the first place despite the fact that Flash easily has the best TvZ and Jaedong's ZvT is by far his weakest MU? Even for the NATE MSL finals, Flash was the favorite there, but not by a huge margin.
Isn't that what being a bonjwa is all about? The expectations? I realize that there will always be upsets and random losses even with the greatest players, that's not the reason why Flash isn't bonjwa. Flash isn't bonjwa because there always seems to be this doubt about his ability to perform in high pressure situations...a doubt that is continuously enforced by Flash (NATE MSL finals, Korean Air OSL finals, last 5 PL Ace games). A player can have the the best win percentage ever in all MUs, but when there's so much worry about him "choking", it's pretty obvious that he has a long way to go before he attains bonjwa status.
Hell, even Jaedong inspires more confidence than Flash when it comes to performing in a finals or an Ace match (atleast he does for me, can't speak for others).
On June 13 2010 16:56 DarkMatter_ wrote: If Flash is the undisputed best, explain to me why Jaedong was the slight favorite to win the MSL (even among progamers)? Yes, Flash ended up playing superbly and winning the finals convincingly but why wasn't he the clear favorite in the first place despite the fact that Flash easily has the best TvZ and Jaedong's ZvT is by far his weakest MU? Even for the NATE MSL finals, Flash was the favorite there, but not by a huge margin.
Jaedong was the favorite because of their Bo5 history, because Flash had up to that point never won a Bo5 against Jaedong. All but one of those Bo5s was played before Flash's period of dominance, and should not be relevant to any sensible analysis of favorites (how good Flash and Jaedong were 2 years ago shouldn't be relevant when discussing how good they are now).
On June 13 2010 16:56 DarkMatter_ wrote: Isn't that what being a bonjwa is all about? The expectations? I realize that there will always be upsets and random losses even with the greatest players, that's not the reason why Flash isn't bonjwa. Flash isn't bonjwa because there always seems to be this doubt about his ability to perform in high pressure situations...a doubt that is continuously enforced by Flash [b/(NATE MSL finals, Korean Air OSL finals, last 5 PL Ace games). A player can have the the best win percentage ever in all MUs, but when there's so much worry about him "choking", it's pretty obvious that he has a long way to go before he attains bonjwa status.
[/b] I think this is where a lot of the debate stems from. Flash has created for himself a schedule that's more demanding than any other player in the history of Starcraft. He's played more ace matches probably than any other player, with Jaedong being the only one who could probably contend that. And consecutive double finals just shows he plays more individual league games than any other player. The question is whether that should be factored into an analysis of his dominance: is a player that can't qualify for one starleague and is mediocre in proleague, but unbeatable in the other (i.e. Savior) a more dominant player than someone who has to ace match every proleague match and makes the finals in both leagues, but drops one of them?
Also, the whole "if Flash isn't bonjwa (or close to it), there wouldn't be controversy about him losing" argument is not a very accurate explanation regarding why there's controversy about him losing. The controversy is the result of the numerous fanboys proclaiming Flash as the ultimate God/bonjwa of SC. People make a big deal out of him losing because of the Flash fanboys, not because we believe that Flash losing to Baby or Hiya is the most unbelievable and impossible result ever. If people stopped calling him the God of SC, people wouldn't make such a big deal out of him losing.
Besides, it's not like there was no controversy about JD losing to the likes of Baby and Ruby. Does that mean he's walking the path of the bonjwa too?
If Flash is the undisputed best, explain to me why Jaedong was the slight favorite to win the MSL (even among progamers)? Yes, Flash ended up playing superbly and winning the finals convincingly but why wasn't he the clear favorite in the first place despite the fact that Flash easily has the best TvZ and Jaedong's ZvT is by far his weakest MU? Even for the NATE MSL finals, Flash was the favorite there, but not by a huge margin.
Isn't that what being a bonjwa is all about? The expectations? I realize that there will always be upsets and random losses even with the greatest players, that's not the reason why Flash isn't bonjwa. Flash isn't bonjwa because there always seems to be this doubt about his ability to perform in high pressure situations...a doubt that is continuously enforced by Flash (NATE MSL finals, Korean Air OSL finals, last 5 PL Ace games). A player can have the the best win percentage ever in all MUs, but when there's so much worry about him "choking", it's pretty obvious that he has a long way to go before he attains bonjwa status.
Hell, even Jaedong inspires more confidence than Flash when it comes to performing in a finals or an Ace match (atleast he does for me, can't speak for others).
Because Flash lost in the NATE MSL and lost to Effort in the OSL a very short period of time before the MSL finals (re: why jaedong was slight favourite).
The idea that Flash "chokes" is misguided. Flash is 3 in 5 in Finals, and that is a good record. He lost 1 in controversial circumstances and perhaps only the other can be considered a "choke". And it is because of the latter alone that Flash may be perceived as a choker by people, but that notion should be extinguished when Flash beat jaedong in such a dominating fashion, but is perpetuated by anti-fans([?] hesitant to use this term but I can't think of other labels) who find joy in playing Devil's Advocate to the general consensus that Flash is the best player right now. Seriously, of what significance is the 5 ace match losses? They only matter IF STX catches up(and they haven't). KT is practically confirmed a finals place either way, so this is hardly important at all.
On June 13 2010 17:12 DarkMatter_ wrote: Also, the whole "if Flash isn't bonjwa (or close to it), there wouldn't be controversy about him losing" argument is not a very accurate explanation regarding why there's controversy about him losing. The controversy is the result of the numerous fanboys proclaiming Flash as the ultimate God/bonjwa of SC. People make a big deal out of him losing because of the Flash fanboys, not because we believe that Flash losing to Baby or Hiya is the most unbelievable and impossible result ever. If people stopped calling him the God of SC, people wouldn't make such a big deal out of him losing.
Besides, it's not like there was no controversy about JD losing to the likes of Baby and Ruby. Does that mean he's walking the path of the bonjwa too?
I don't mean to sound condescending, but obviously fanboys will be fanboys and them proclaiming things like that shouldn't be taken seriously(though I admit it is very annoying). It's hard not to be indulgent in gushing when a player you support is dominating. Also I don't get what you're trying to say here. Obviously when a dominating player loses it creates controversy. In fact, your JD example proves that.
Going to break away from the Flash bonjwa debate, and say, "FUCK YEAH WEMADE!"
Wemade's finally breaking out. A win against KT is also good, seeing as right now, there's a clusterfuck of teams jockeying for playoff eligibility. The more wins the better.
Jaedong was the favorite because of their Bo5 history, because Flash had up to that point never won a Bo5 against Jaedong. All but one of those Bo5s was played before Flash's period of dominance, and should not be relevant to any sensible analysis of favorites (how good Flash and Jaedong were 2 years ago shouldn't be relevant when discussing how good they are now).
If Flash is the undisputed best player, then why were so many people (including many progamers) influenced by those factors when picking a favorite?
I think this is where a lot of the debate stems from. Flash has created for himself a schedule that's more demanding than any other player in the history of Starcraft. He's played more ace matches probably than any other player, with Jaedong being the only one who could probably contend that. And consecutive double finals just shows he plays more individual league games than any other player. The question is whether that should be factored into an analysis of his dominance: is a player that can't qualify for one starleague and is mediocre in proleague, but unbeatable in the other (i.e. Savior) a more dominant player than someone who has to ace match every proleague match and makes the finals in both leagues, but drops one of them?
Schedule is irrelevant to my point. This is about expectations. Schedule can have a significant impact on results, but not on expectations.
Because Flash lost in the NATE MSL and lost to Effort in the OSL a very short period of time before the MSL finals (re: why jaedong was slight favourite).
You're all missing my point. I'm aware about why there was doubt. It was more of a rhetorical question. My point is that if he's an undisputed best player or a bonjwa, then it means that he's so fucking good that he is almost unanimously viewed as the clear favorite regardless of past results. That has never been the case with Flash against Jaedong. And now I don't feel that way about him even against the likes of Baby.
On June 13 2010 17:15 POWEROUTAGE wrote: The idea that Flash "chokes" is misguided. Flash is 3 in 5 in Finals, and that is a good record. He lost 1 in controversial circumstances and perhaps only the other can be considered a "choke". And it is because of the latter alone that Flash may be perceived as a choker by people, but that notion should be extinguished when Flash beat jaedong in such a dominating fashion, but is perpetuated by anti-fans([?] hesitant to use this term but I can't think of other labels) who find joy in playing Devil's Advocate to the general consensus that Flash is the best player right now. Seriously, of what significance is the 5 ace match losses? They only matter IF STX catches up(and they haven't). KT is practically confirmed a finals place either way, so this is hardly important at all.
Not being a constant choker and being the best player isn't really equivalent to being dominant though, is it? I mean, if there is one thing we know about Starcraft, it's that the best player doesn't always win. And it's hard to say that someone is dominant when there is another guy people will point to and call the best.
On June 13 2010 17:23 cokencheese wrote: I love how the arguments people are using against Flash bonjwa nowadays are exactly the same as the ones used against Jaedong a year ago.
Are you saying that Jaedong is a bonjwa then? Because it's been a year and I don't think anyone is really saying that now. I suspect that it will be the same for Flash if he doesn't perform in the near future.
Maybe they just need a new term for rivals who struggle against each other for a period of time without there being a clear winner.
Plexa's bigotry towards Zerg is so stupid. I could go on about this, but it's pretty clear from the bias he has against Jaedong he is clueless... He even wrote articles about how he is just a dumb robotic player back in the day when he was creating the new ZvP blueprint, or ZvT blueprint, or everything else Zerg for that matter. God, I remember raging so hard at the ignorance.
On June 13 2010 17:15 POWEROUTAGE wrote: The idea that Flash "chokes" is misguided. Flash is 3 in 5 in Finals, and that is a good record. He lost 1 in controversial circumstances and perhaps only the other can be considered a "choke". And it is because of the latter alone that Flash may be perceived as a choker by people, but that notion should be extinguished when Flash beat jaedong in such a dominating fashion, but is perpetuated by anti-fans([?] hesitant to use this term but I can't think of other labels) who find joy in playing Devil's Advocate to the general consensus that Flash is the best player right now. Seriously, of what significance is the 5 ace match losses? They only matter IF STX catches up(and they haven't). KT is practically confirmed a finals place either way, so this is hardly important at all.
Not being a constant choker and being the best player isn't really equivalent to being dominant though, is it? I mean, if there is one thing we know about Starcraft, it's that the best player doesn't always win. And it's hard to say that someone is dominant when there is another guy people will point to and call the best.
On June 13 2010 17:23 cokencheese wrote: I love how the arguments people are using against Flash bonjwa nowadays are exactly the same as the ones used against Jaedong a year ago.
Are you saying that Jaedong is a bonjwa then? Because it's been a year and I don't think anyone is really saying that now. I suspect that it will be the same for Flash if he doesn't perform in the near future.
Maybe they just need a new term for rivals who struggle against each other for a period of time without there being a clear winner.
I think we can worry about people performing in the MSL and OSLs.....
Because Flash lost in the NATE MSL and lost to Effort in the OSL a very short period of time before the MSL finals (re: why jaedong was slight favourite).
You're all missing my point. I'm aware about why there was doubt. It was more of a rhetorical question. My point is that if he's an undisputed bonjwa, then it means that he's so fucking good that he is almost unanimously viewed as the clear favorite regardless of past results. That has never been the case with Flash against Jaedong. And now I don't feel that way about him even against the likes of Baby.
Well if that's your point, it's flawed. No one will be ever good enough such that he is the clear favourite in spite/regardless of form. Form directly causes the expectations on a player, if a player is in bad form why would you declare him a favourite over someone who's in a purple patch? Same thing for Flash vs. JD.
On June 13 2010 17:15 POWEROUTAGE wrote: The idea that Flash "chokes" is misguided. Flash is 3 in 5 in Finals, and that is a good record. He lost 1 in controversial circumstances and perhaps only the other can be considered a "choke". And it is because of the latter alone that Flash may be perceived as a choker by people, but that notion should be extinguished when Flash beat jaedong in such a dominating fashion, but is perpetuated by anti-fans([?] hesitant to use this term but I can't think of other labels) who find joy in playing Devil's Advocate to the general consensus that Flash is the best player right now. Seriously, of what significance is the 5 ace match losses? They only matter IF STX catches up(and they haven't). KT is practically confirmed a finals place either way, so this is hardly important at all.
Not being a constant choker and being the best player isn't really equivalent to being dominant though, is it? I mean, if there is one thing we know about Starcraft, it's that the best player doesn't always win. And it's hard to say that someone is dominant when there is another guy people will point to and call the best.
On June 13 2010 17:23 cokencheese wrote: I love how the arguments people are using against Flash bonjwa nowadays are exactly the same as the ones used against Jaedong a year ago.
Are you saying that Jaedong is a bonjwa then? Because it's been a year and I don't think anyone is really saying that now. I suspect that it will be the same for Flash if he doesn't perform in the near future.
Maybe they just need a new term for rivals who struggle against each other for a period of time without there being a clear winner.
The final era of Broodwar: Clash of Two Kings. Hmm, actually, that sounds kinda bad, but the general gist of it is there, lol.
It's not that bloody complicated, Flash demolished/es everyone for a period of time, he'd even be put as favorite over Jaedong. During this period and even now sure you can call him the best, but undisputed? No, not in my opinion. If that holds true though, then Jaedong was bonjwa/the best for like two years.. Tell me one player that would be held as favorite over him in any boX series since he won his first OSL?
On June 13 2010 17:43 Plexa wrote: Bonjwa is a retrospective term. You look back on a player's career and can say with confidence that they were a bonjwa - and Flash is certainly walking that path at the moment (if he weren't, there wouldn't be this much controversy when he loses)
I dont get this, this is pretty much exactly what has been the case with Jaedong for a Very long time. Same type of controversy when he was loosing games that were expected to win (which is like all of them).
Meh, I think Flash is amazing and he surely has what it takes to maybe be called "bonjwa" one day, but I dont think that will be the case aslong as both he and Jaedong is around together.
--
Wicked play by baby btw, this kid has surreal potential, grats Wemade
On June 13 2010 17:43 Gtks wrote: I didn't see the games any link ? I ussed to avoid seeing baby, nothing special about him anyaway.
He's #4 on the power rank right now. I wouldn't say that there is nothing special about him. There were a lot of good mine-related moments in the game today. It was pretty fun, in my opinion.
If it weren't for a few unfortunate ace losses leading up to this, no one would make a stink about this loss. Do you think any other T in the world would have beat Baby the way he was playing tonight? I don't. He played a great game, and he is a player with a lot of promise. I honestly think were making this way too much about Flash and not enough about Baby.
On June 13 2010 18:06 D3lta wrote: If it weren't for a few unfortunate ace losses leading up to this, no one would make a stink about this loss. Do you think any other T in the world would have beat Baby the way he was playing tonight? I don't. He played a great game, and he is a player with a lot of promise. I honestly think were making this way too much about Flash and not enough about Baby.
sKyHigh is 4-0 over BaBy, so yes I do think another Terran could've won tonight.
On June 13 2010 18:06 D3lta wrote: If it weren't for a few unfortunate ace losses leading up to this, no one would make a stink about this loss. Do you think any other T in the world would have beat Baby the way he was playing tonight? I don't. He played a great game, and he is a player with a lot of promise. I honestly think were making this way too much about Flash and not enough about Baby.
sKyHigh is 4-0 over BaBy, so yes I do think another Terran could've won tonight.
On June 13 2010 18:06 D3lta wrote: If it weren't for a few unfortunate ace losses leading up to this, no one would make a stink about this loss. Do you think any other T in the world would have beat Baby the way he was playing tonight? I don't. He played a great game, and he is a player with a lot of promise. I honestly think were making this way too much about Flash and not enough about Baby.
sKyHigh is 4-0 over BaBy, so yes I do think another Terran could've won tonight.
Baby was 0-3 against Flash until now.
so? just shows you that everyone can beat everyone
Oh, now that's an interesting result. Fuel to the "SLUMP!" fire.
But it's not a slump if you're losing occasional games to players like BaBy. Alright, to flash fans it is, but to any other reasonable person, this is a run of bad luck, but not an indication of some deep decline.
And also, BaBy is indisputably the #2 terran right now. He's getting some heat from fantasy, but he's playing so well right now.
On June 13 2010 18:06 D3lta wrote: If it weren't for a few unfortunate ace losses leading up to this, no one would make a stink about this loss. Do you think any other T in the world would have beat Baby the way he was playing tonight? I don't. He played a great game, and he is a player with a lot of promise. I honestly think were making this way too much about Flash and not enough about Baby.
sKyHigh is 4-0 over BaBy, so yes I do think another Terran could've won tonight.
Baby was 0-3 against Flash until now.
so? just shows you that everyone can beat everyone
He was talking about the way Baby was playing tonight, not the way Baby was playing yesterday or the day before.
On June 13 2010 17:17 Apex wrote: Going to break away from the Flash bonjwa debate, and say, "FUCK YEAH WEMADE!"
Wemade's finally breaking out. A win against KT is also good, seeing as right now, there's a clusterfuck of teams jockeying for playoff eligibility. The more wins the better.
Interestingly enough, I believe you are the first and only poster in this thread with a WeMade fan symbol...
Edit: I lied, but there is still a distressingly low number of WeMade fans.
results, I want to see RESULTS not more retarded + Show Spoiler +
spoilers
This is so true. Bugs me alot. .
So does KT losing ace matches consistently :/. And trading away ForGG the day before he wins
Well I apologize profusely to both of you. It takes an extra what, half a second to click on the damn "Overall" tab. There are people that like looking at results match to match, so this is my attempt to compromise. If you don't like it, don't click
On June 13 2010 17:17 Apex wrote: Going to break away from the Flash bonjwa debate, and say, "FUCK YEAH WEMADE!"
Wemade's finally breaking out. A win against KT is also good, seeing as right now, there's a clusterfuck of teams jockeying for playoff eligibility. The more wins the better.
Interestingly enough, I believe you are the first and only poster in this thread with a WeMade fan symbol...
Edit: I lied, but there is still a distressingly low number of WeMade fans.
results, I want to see RESULTS not more retarded + Show Spoiler +
spoilers
This is so true. Bugs me alot. .
So does KT losing ace matches consistently :/. And trading away ForGG the day before he wins
Well I apologize profusely to both of you. It takes an extra what, half a second to click on the damn "Overall" tab. There are people that like looking at results match to match, so this is my attempt to compromise. If you don't like it, don't click
WeMade Fox was probably the first team I liked. Maybe because of their name or something, I dunno. But I was happy to see them do well.
Anyway, I appreciate that you are trying to prepare the results both ways. Was it really necessary to put a spoiler tag around a set of spoiler tags though? It wouldn't have really detracted from the original post if the six tags had been there instead of one, in my opinion.
On June 13 2010 16:56 DarkMatter_ wrote: Hell, even Jaedong inspires more confidence than Flash when it comes to performing in a finals or an Ace match (atleast he does for me, can't speak for others).
Interestingly enough, Jaedong is an absolute garbage player when it comes to teamleague finals. His showing in last year Winners league finals was great, until he choked agains Skyhigh, but his perfomance in normal Prolegue finals is abysmal. He wasn't able to win a single game as far as I remember. He lost to Frozean (lol) in Oz vs Khan couple of years back and went 0:3 against SKT last season.
If you want my personal oppinion Snow will crush Jaedong and then may have some fun with baby.
Ps: if you don't agree that Flash is the Best player imagine i hade to switch race to Proross get some wins from him i play terran. Cya in the next Flash/Snows game.
On June 13 2010 17:17 Apex wrote: Going to break away from the Flash bonjwa debate, and say, "FUCK YEAH WEMADE!"
Wemade's finally breaking out. A win against KT is also good, seeing as right now, there's a clusterfuck of teams jockeying for playoff eligibility. The more wins the better.
Interestingly enough, I believe you are the first and only poster in this thread with a WeMade fan symbol...
Edit: I lied, but there is still a distressingly low number of WeMade fans.
Yeah, there aren't a huge amount of Wemade fans, I was reading through the first ten pages or so, and I'm like, "Hmm, there aren't any Wemade fans, what gives?"
On June 14 2010 03:59 Gtks wrote: If you want my personal oppinion Snow will crush Jaedong and then may have some fun with baby.
Ps: if you don't agree that Flash is the Best player imagine i hade to switch race to Proross get some wins from him i play terran. Cya in the next Flash/Snows game.
On June 13 2010 16:56 DarkMatter_ wrote: Hell, even Jaedong inspires more confidence than Flash when it comes to performing in a finals or an Ace match (atleast he does for me, can't speak for others).
Interestingly enough, Jaedong is an absolute garbage player when it comes to teamleague finals. His showing in last year Winners league finals was great, until he choked agains Skyhigh, but his perfomance in normal Prolegue finals is abysmal. He wasn't able to win a single game as far as I remember. He lost to Frozean (lol) in Oz vs Khan couple of years back and went 0:3 against SKT last season.
His play in WL wasnt garbage at all. His teammates were garbage at the time. He 3 killed for ffs, then he went for a 5pool and said fuck it, they would probably take him down, no way he will all kill. + Rush hour is a pretty imbalanced TvZ map, so playing straight up is probably not a good idea.
To be fair, he only choked vs Fantasy who was the best terran in the world at the time in an epic game, the final set, there wasnt much JD could do vs that insane bo after he went 2hat gas before pool. His loss vs Hyuk was a bo loss. His game vs Frozean was a snipe though, plain and simple, standard sunk break with tons of raging fans within the hilarity. The record is pretty bad, but it's not like he played bad in those 2 finals. His opponent's builds were simply better.
On June 13 2010 18:06 D3lta wrote: If it weren't for a few unfortunate ace losses leading up to this, no one would make a stink about this loss. Do you think any other T in the world would have beat Baby the way he was playing tonight? I don't. He played a great game, and he is a player with a lot of promise. I honestly think were making this way too much about Flash and not enough about Baby.
sKyHigh is 4-0 over BaBy, so yes I do think another Terran could've won tonight.
Baby was 0-3 against Flash until now.
so? just shows you that everyone can beat everyone
It shows you that Baby was clearly playing better than normal. Some people apparently have a real tough time with the concept of playing an individual game better than a player's overall average. When a player has is much skill as the PL players, this means they can play a game that no one -on average- could beat them on the scene.
On June 13 2010 17:17 Apex wrote: Going to break away from the Flash bonjwa debate, and say, "FUCK YEAH WEMADE!"
Wemade's finally breaking out. A win against KT is also good, seeing as right now, there's a clusterfuck of teams jockeying for playoff eligibility. The more wins the better.
Interestingly enough, I believe you are the first and only poster in this thread with a WeMade fan symbol...
Edit: I lied, but there is still a distressingly low number of WeMade fans.
results, I want to see RESULTS not more retarded + Show Spoiler +
spoilers
This is so true. Bugs me alot. .
So does KT losing ace matches consistently :/. And trading away ForGG the day before he wins
Well I apologize profusely to both of you. It takes an extra what, half a second to click on the damn "Overall" tab. There are people that like looking at results match to match, so this is my attempt to compromise. If you don't like it, don't click
WeMade Fox was probably the first team I liked. Maybe because of their name or something, I dunno. But I was happy to see them do well.
Anyway, I appreciate that you are trying to prepare the results both ways. Was it really necessary to put a spoiler tag around a set of spoiler tags though? It wouldn't have really detracted from the original post if the six tags had been there instead of one, in my opinion.
To be honest, the outer set it just to appease my OCDness of having a line break, predictions/lineup/results/recommended games and then directly under it "show spoiler."
BTW did you notice on Nal_rA's Old Boy show, that WeMade FOX has the most luxurious practice house/floor/studio (whatever you call it)...Even Nal_rA says "Is this America?" After that , KT Rolster has a luxurious one (comparing to other teams' )
One of the teams on those episodes, had a practice saloon that looked like a bottom-quality internet cafe.
Just attracted my attention... I don't know if it affects getting little talented players on the team easier than the others.
wow Babys multitasking is good! if you look at the FPVOD clip in part of the game, his macro instincts will godly, high apm factory macro, as well as instant reactions to unit engagements
BaBy vs Flash was one of the best TvT's ever, but mostly because that kind of multitask was somewhat unexpected. Seemed a bit one sided (in BaBy's favor) after he initially lost those units...
On June 13 2010 17:17 Apex wrote: Going to break away from the Flash bonjwa debate, and say, "FUCK YEAH WEMADE!"
Wemade's finally breaking out. A win against KT is also good, seeing as right now, there's a clusterfuck of teams jockeying for playoff eligibility. The more wins the better.
Interestingly enough, I believe you are the first and only poster in this thread with a WeMade fan symbol...
Edit: I lied, but there is still a distressingly low number of WeMade fans.
Yeah, there aren't a huge amount of Wemade fans, I was reading through the first ten pages or so, and I'm like, "Hmm, there aren't any Wemade fans, what gives?"
Oh, well. Maybe they're hiding.
For some reason I don't post very often in LR threads. I prefer to banter on IRC / Vent
EPT
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BaBy, they have 
Shine, they have 
Violet, though I find him a sucky player, is statistically best against Terran, and he was the one to take out 
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/userpoll/cache/6f8d912ba840afab727f1e16d99c3d46f70f3dc9.png)
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