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On October 18 2009 23:30 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 23:01 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Notice that Flash won both his titles and Fantasy lost both of his, when the common factor here is Jaedong. (Oh and Jaedong beat Stork while Fantasy...lost to Stork.)
Though Jaedong's kicked Flash out of 3-4 tournaments since then. It just goes to show that if you can't get a series win against Jaedong, no matter how well your overall record is, you have to get lucky to win a title. Calm and Flash pulled it off (Forgg too, I suppose). Or just some ability to take clutch wins when you aren't the favorite in individual leagues.
I'm a horrible horrible Flash fanboy but it's kind of hard to recognize Fantasy as #1 (which people have been doing for awhile, until like just this month) when he just can't seem to grasp a title. It's the same thing that happened with Stork and Bisu awhile back. Stork playing great, but Bisu had the titles and the #1 protoss slot until that fateful OSL. I agree that winning a title without beating Jaedong would be a feat of luck in the current era, which says a lot about his dominance. But I also have to say the same thing about Bisu (maybe not in this coming season due to maps, or whatever reason he had for losing to Shine like a newb). Bisu, despite lacking an OSL title or a recent MSL win (post-Bisu vs. Jangbi double finals), is generally a major stopping block for many title hopefuls. Flash hasn't won a series against Bisu in a while, and was lucky (in my opinion) that SKT1 was not in GOM, or I doubt he would have achieved the title as easily if at all. Fantasy 3-0'd Bisu in their last series. Fantasy's appearance in finals at all proves that he is able to overcome obstacles, and like I said before his losses weren't chokes like Stork has shown in the past - they were losses to players playing at the top of their game. That is an argument against Fantasy in itself, but it also gives him credit for his play; being able to get that far and come so close. Close isn't a title, but it does mean something. All I said is that they are close to even in my mind - I don't think I tried to argue that Fantasy was BETTER than Flash in every sense of the word, just that he wasn't as far behind Flash as others seem to suggest. I disagree about Stork and Bisu - Bisu's win over Stork in MSL + his wins over Stork before and after the OSL title made it clear at least to me that the OSL did not change who the #1 Toss was. Bisu's consequent double wins over Jangbi, who supposedly rapes Stork on a consistent basis (or raped back then) further cemented that fact.
Well, first thing's first, Bisu 2-0'd Fantasy last MSL. :>
As far as Bisu vs Stork, this is all conjecture but I kind of put that up to Stork being a choke artist. When Stork actually plays on top of his game, even when Bisu is playing just as good as ever, Stork can and will take him down toe to toe (with them splitting otherwise, Bisu is better in PvZ and Stork is better in PvT). I thought Stork's OSL title and complete dismemberment of SKT sent a message that Stork, when he's truly playing to his best, is the #1 protoss in 2/3 matches, and with a title under his belt for that season, he was the #1 at the time. That quickly changed, obviously, and Bisu has now claimed PvP supremacy, PvT excellence, and while his PvZ is slipping, That's still 2/3 to 3/3 better matches nowadays.
Back to the Terrans, I just really miss 2008 Flash. That guy was the best player who ever played the damn game and it's a shame that he's been struggling since GSI/Bacchus 08. (well struggling in a relative since, he's qualified for every tournament everytime and usually makes it to quaterfinals or so, but anything besides a finals appearance seems beneath his talent). Fantasy's still in that proving stage, in my mind, atleast.
Oh also when you were talking about Flash's OSL run, let's not forget how it went down. He beat Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork, the undoubted 3 best players in the world, and went 8-2 against them, beating Bisu and Stork on Katrina no less. Flash had the on paper most difficult OSL run in history (Savior still wins in actuality of course), and didn't just win, but win so easily that most people thought it was boring how good he was (with exception to a couple of the games vs Bisu). Fantasy has had similar chances in tournaments. He's had to face Jaedong twice, who he's lost to (Flash, in series, is 2-2 with Jaedong, winning both Bo3s and losing both Bo5s, which says something about their comparative talent, I think), but he's only had to play Bo5s so I'll give him the credit and say that, vs Jaedong, him and Flash are interchangeably as good (depending on which sick build Fantasy has planned). Vs Bisu, Fantasy is far better, Having won 3-0 and lost 2-0, whereas Flash won 3-1 and has lost 2-1 recently, and 3-1 in GOM season 2.
That'd leave Stork, who Flash had a poor history leading up to his triumphant stomping in Bacchus, clean off a close game in GSI. Flash's ability to jump 20 tiers in a week is pretty impressive. I'd like to see anyone in the *world* beat Stork 3 times in a row on Katrina who isn't named Flash. Fantasy, on the other hand, Lost 3-2 and 2-0, a reversal of how well Flash did.
Against top players, on any given day, I'd call them equal given their histories, Fantasy obviously coming up strong in the past 2 or 3 seasons. But I'm fairly content with that because while it may have been a year ago, Flash's best games are better than anyone in any matchup, with possible exception to Jaedong and maaaaaaaaaybe Bisu. That's what I really think cuts those three from the rest. Despite the fact that Stork will win an OSL or Calm will kick him out of an MSL, we all know that Bisu and Jaedong top their race's charts, and for good reason.
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On October 18 2009 23:39 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 23:36 Holgerius wrote:
Trolling or not, going 29-21 on PL is inexcusable if you are supposed to be the best Terran in the world. He is not as consistent as Flash, nor does he have a title (which Flash does). So, Flash is more consistent, and has a higher peak level. He's just a so much better player overall. Flash can, as you yourself said, play many different styles. Fantasy is not nearly as complete. He is, for instance, incapable of proper bio control vs Zerg. The only finals that Flash appeared in since Bacchus was GOM where neither Bisu nor Fantasy were present. Fantasy has appeared in 2 OSL finals. Just because KTF forced Flash to slave for their proleague results (to no success, btw) doesn't mean that we can ignore his lack of presence in the major individual leagues. It's a trade-off - Fantasy traded PL appearances for individual league performance, Flash did the opposite. Flash played different styles, with each style being specific to one time frame of his career.
Well Fantasy didnt trade his presence at Proleague, he played 50 games and did only ''okay'' thus suggesting he is lacking something when playing without prepared builds.
And to person who said that didnt choke in the finals as stork what do you say about Barracks-Factory spawn everything outside my base wall.
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On October 18 2009 23:50 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 23:30 fanatacist wrote:On October 18 2009 23:01 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Notice that Flash won both his titles and Fantasy lost both of his, when the common factor here is Jaedong. (Oh and Jaedong beat Stork while Fantasy...lost to Stork.)
Though Jaedong's kicked Flash out of 3-4 tournaments since then. It just goes to show that if you can't get a series win against Jaedong, no matter how well your overall record is, you have to get lucky to win a title. Calm and Flash pulled it off (Forgg too, I suppose). Or just some ability to take clutch wins when you aren't the favorite in individual leagues.
I'm a horrible horrible Flash fanboy but it's kind of hard to recognize Fantasy as #1 (which people have been doing for awhile, until like just this month) when he just can't seem to grasp a title. It's the same thing that happened with Stork and Bisu awhile back. Stork playing great, but Bisu had the titles and the #1 protoss slot until that fateful OSL. I agree that winning a title without beating Jaedong would be a feat of luck in the current era, which says a lot about his dominance. But I also have to say the same thing about Bisu (maybe not in this coming season due to maps, or whatever reason he had for losing to Shine like a newb). Bisu, despite lacking an OSL title or a recent MSL win (post-Bisu vs. Jangbi double finals), is generally a major stopping block for many title hopefuls. Flash hasn't won a series against Bisu in a while, and was lucky (in my opinion) that SKT1 was not in GOM, or I doubt he would have achieved the title as easily if at all. Fantasy 3-0'd Bisu in their last series. Fantasy's appearance in finals at all proves that he is able to overcome obstacles, and like I said before his losses weren't chokes like Stork has shown in the past - they were losses to players playing at the top of their game. That is an argument against Fantasy in itself, but it also gives him credit for his play; being able to get that far and come so close. Close isn't a title, but it does mean something. All I said is that they are close to even in my mind - I don't think I tried to argue that Fantasy was BETTER than Flash in every sense of the word, just that he wasn't as far behind Flash as others seem to suggest. I disagree about Stork and Bisu - Bisu's win over Stork in MSL + his wins over Stork before and after the OSL title made it clear at least to me that the OSL did not change who the #1 Toss was. Bisu's consequent double wins over Jangbi, who supposedly rapes Stork on a consistent basis (or raped back then) further cemented that fact. Well, first thing's first, Bisu 2-0'd Fantasy last MSL. :> As far as Bisu vs Stork, this is all conjecture but I kind of put that up to Stork being a choke artist. When Stork actually plays on top of his game, even when Bisu is playing just as good as ever, Stork can and will take him down toe to toe (with them splitting otherwise, Bisu is better in PvZ and Stork is better in PvT). I thought Stork's OSL title and complete dismemberment of SKT sent a message that Stork, when he's truly playing to his best, is the #1 protoss in 2/3 matches, and with a title under his belt for that season, he was the #1 at the time. That quickly changed, obviously, and Bisu has now claimed PvP supremacy, PvT excellence, and while his PvZ is slipping, That's still 2/3 to 3/3 better matches nowadays. Back to the Terrans, I just really miss 2008 Flash. That guy was the best player who ever played the damn game and it's a shame that he's been struggling since GSI/Bacchus 08. (well struggling in a relative since, he's qualified for every tournament everytime and usually makes it to quaterfinals or so, but anything besides a finals appearance seems beneath his talent). Fantasy's still in that proving stage, in my mind, atleast. Oh also when you were talking about Flash's OSL run, let's not forget how it went down. He beat Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork, the undoubted 3 best players in the world, and went 8-2 against them, beating Bisu and Stork on Katrina no less. Flash had the on paper most difficult OSL run in history (Savior still wins in actuality of course), and didn't just win, but win so easily that most people thought it was boring how good he was (with exception to a couple of the games vs Bisu). Fantasy has had similar chances in tournaments. He's had to face Jaedong twice, who he's lost to (Flash, in series, is 2-2 with Jaedong, winning both Bo3s and losing both Bo5s, which says something about their comparative talent, I think), but he's only had to play Bo5s so I'll give him the credit and say that, vs Jaedong, him and Flash are interchangeably as good (depending on which sick build Fantasy has planned). Vs Bisu, Fantasy is far better, Having won 3-0 and lost 2-0, whereas Flash won 3-1 and has lost 2-1 recently, and 3-1 in GOM season 2. That'd leave Stork, who Flash had a poor history leading up to his triumphant stomping in Bacchus, clean off a close game in GSI. Flash's ability to jump 20 tiers in a week is pretty impressive. I'd like to see anyone in the *world* beat Stork 3 times in a row on Katrina who isn't named Flash. Fantasy, on the other hand, Lost 3-2 and 2-0, a reversal of how well Flash did. Against top players, on any given day, I'd call them equal given their histories, Fantasy obviously coming up strong in the past 2 or 3 seasons. But I'm fairly content with that because while it may have been a year ago, Flash's best games are better than anyone in any matchup, with possible exception to Jaedong and maaaaaaaaaybe Bisu. That's what I really think cuts those three from the rest. Despite the fact that Stork will win an OSL or Calm will kick him out of an MSL, we all know that Bisu and Jaedong top their race's charts, and for good reason.
Great post. I agree with almost everything you said - the problem lies in that my argument was geared towards who is the best Terran right now. I don't deny that Flash's Bacchus OSL run was incredible - I said it was godlike. However, right now, I don't know who I'd say is more like to win vs. Jaedong or vs. Bisu, because I think it's pretty damn close. That's pretty much what you said, I think (:
Thanks for fixing that Bisu vs. Fantasy stat, I tend to forget things sometimes. Anyway, I think that Stork was the first to ride the P-favored map pool, with Bisu and Jangbi following soon after. That's why he was given his opportunity to shine (as well as the latter two). Right now, I'd say Bisu's PvP is better than Stork's, PvZ better than Stork's, and PvT worse than Stork's. By what margin is subjective. In my opinion, his PvP is not too far above but is still more advanced, PvZ is decently above but like you said, slumping (whether due to maps or ZvP trends or personal skill loss), and PvT is worse but not by as much as his PvZ is better. Like I said, it's subjective, so I don't think there is any point in arguing it at the moment - we'll see more when the new season comes hopefully (:
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On October 18 2009 23:56 Jakalo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 23:39 fanatacist wrote:On October 18 2009 23:36 Holgerius wrote:
Trolling or not, going 29-21 on PL is inexcusable if you are supposed to be the best Terran in the world. He is not as consistent as Flash, nor does he have a title (which Flash does). So, Flash is more consistent, and has a higher peak level. He's just a so much better player overall. Flash can, as you yourself said, play many different styles. Fantasy is not nearly as complete. He is, for instance, incapable of proper bio control vs Zerg. The only finals that Flash appeared in since Bacchus was GOM where neither Bisu nor Fantasy were present. Fantasy has appeared in 2 OSL finals. Just because KTF forced Flash to slave for their proleague results (to no success, btw) doesn't mean that we can ignore his lack of presence in the major individual leagues. It's a trade-off - Fantasy traded PL appearances for individual league performance, Flash did the opposite. Flash played different styles, with each style being specific to one time frame of his career. Well Fantasy didnt trade his presence at Proleague, he played 50 games and did only ''okay'' thus suggesting he is lacking something when playing without prepared builds. And to person who said that didnt choke in the finals as stork what do you say about Barracks-Factory spawn everything outside my base wall.
Okay, minor mistake on my part - traded PERFORMANCE in PL for individual SLs. Prepared builds are a HUGE aspect of this game, and being that Fantasy is a strategy-intensive player, it makes perfect sense for his strength to be in that field. That's what makes his SL runs deadly.
Don't remember that. Was this vs. Stork?
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No, there really is no excuse for ending up with such a mediocre PL record as Fantasy did if he's supposed to be the best terran player. He played a lot of games and lost to a lot of bad players. I fail to see how the No1 could have such (relatively) bad basic play. And I will absolutely never admit Fantasy as a serious candidate to being the best overall Terran player until he fixes his TvZ. Fantasy's TvZ is worse than Stork's PvZ. Seriously.
If we look at Flash's last OSL he was eliminated by losing to both the finalists (wow, I never realized that until now); he lost Bo1's against the two best ZvT'ers in the world.  The lack of Flash in recent finals hurts me so much as a Flash fanboy. It is the only reason we can still even debate whether he is the best player ever or not. Because he sure as hell has the raw skill and talent. That is why I truly hope Flash goes all the way again this season.
Anyways, Flash vs Fantasy head to head; 4-2 for Flash. Win.
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On October 19 2009 01:08 Holgerius wrote:No, there really is no excuse for ending up with such a mediocre PL record as Fantasy did if he's supposed to be the best terran player. He played a lot of games and lost to a lot of bad players. I fail to see how the No1 could have such (relatively) bad basic play. And I will absolutely never admit Fantasy as a serious candidate to being the best overall Terran player until he fixes his TvZ. Fantasy's TvZ is worse than Stork's PvZ. Seriously. If we look at Flash's last OSL he was eliminated by losing to both the finalists (wow, I never realized that until now); he lost Bo1's against the two best ZvT'ers in the world. The lack of Flash in recent finals hurts me so much as a Flash fanboy. It is the only reason we can still even debate whether he is the best player ever or not. Because he sure as hell has the raw skill and talent. That is why I truly hope Flash goes all the way again this season. Anyways, Flash vs Fantasy head to head; 4-2 for Flash. Win.
Let's say I'm a player who can read the mentality of his enemies well, who predicts the way a match will unfold on a certain map, and I can prepare the perfect build and execute it cleanly. I tailor my game to the enemy I will face, and I do this every week. Let's say you're a player who has good standard play, good gut decisions, and impeccable defense to both cheese and pressure. We're both good players, but I will have more success in SLs and you will have more in PLs. The best chess players of all time might not be as adept at speed chess as the best of that field, and vice versa. I don't know how many times I have to tell you, I am not arguing that he is the definite best Terran - I am saying that he is close, if not even with Flash. Flash had a great PL record, and what did he have to show for it? His team didn't win, he got MVP tied with Jaedong (and 1 win above Bisu), and that's it. Who will remember that 2 years from now? People will remember his monstrous 2008 Bacchus run. People will remember Fantasy's close loss to Stork's first gold in the OSL.
Stork's and Fantasy's vZ are similarly terrible, both statistically and historically. However, when you consider history, Stork has 5 years or more of revolting mediocrity. He is beyond hope, in my opinion. Fantasy might still pull something out, but I don't use hope as a pro for him.
6 TvT games over years of development for both players is hardly a valuable statistic.
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Fantasy knows who he is going to play against and on what map even in PL. Are you telling me he's just to lazy to practise and work out good strategies just because it's PL? It doesn't make sense.
I will not give up until you take away that ''if not even'' part.  Flash is better TvZ and TvT. They are roughly equal in TvP. I want you to say ''Flash is better than Fantasy''. Do it! :D
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On October 19 2009 01:31 Holgerius wrote:Fantasy knows who he is going to play against and on what map even in PL. Are you telling me he's just to lazy to practise and work out good strategies just because it's PL? It doesn't make sense. I will not give up until you take away that ''if not even'' part. Flash is better TvZ and TvT. They are roughly equal in TvP. I want you to say ''Flash is better than Fantasy''. Do it! :D
I'm telling you that
1. it takes longer
2. he values SLs over PL, except for PL finals (where it matters). Speaking of which, despite his record, didn't they finish #1 last season anyway? Guess he must have won/lost the right games.
Flash is not significantly better than Fantasy, IF AT ALL.
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You know you guys are saying oh how stork's pvz suck, while it does suck, who has a better pvz than stork besides bisu? Movie? Hes played way too less games so you can come to any conclusion yet. Kal? Maybe, but his pvz is nothing stellar either. You can say stork's pvz suck, but its one of the best pvz you're going to get so deal with it.
And jaedong's worst mu is vt. So fantasy basically lost to jaedong's worst mu in a bo5 twice. And stork is about 7 - 3 against fantasy too. 4 - 2 from stork's gold osl run, 0 - 1 from one other osl, 2 - 0 from wcg, 1 - 0 from all stars.
On October 19 2009 01:46 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 01:31 Holgerius wrote:Fantasy knows who he is going to play against and on what map even in PL. Are you telling me he's just to lazy to practise and work out good strategies just because it's PL? It doesn't make sense. I will not give up until you take away that ''if not even'' part. Flash is better TvZ and TvT. They are roughly equal in TvP. I want you to say ''Flash is better than Fantasy''. Do it! :D I'm telling you that 1. it takes longer 2. he values SLs over PL, except for PL finals (where it matters). Speaking of which, despite his record, didn't they finish #1 last season anyway? Guess he must have won/lost the right games. Flash is not significantly better than Fantasy, IF AT ALL.
Flash has more gold in sl than fantasy does. So what if fantasy has two silver? Sure he had a pretty godly second run, but nobody gave a shit about stork who had 3 silver so who gives a shit about the seconds. Flash also has a much better pl record than fantasy. Head to head record is also 4 - 2 in favor of flash. Flash is much better than Fantasy just looking at the stats. Fantasy prepares better strategy, but thats also because theres boxer and iloveoov to help him. Flash wins with better mechanics and starsense, which is why flash is just so dominant.
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If several days of preparation isn't enough for Fantasy to beat a guy like Hogil, then I don't see how he could be considered equal to Flash...
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Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
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On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote:
Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
Well good luck with that, fantasy is already out of one of the sl. So you might have to wait a bit longer than you want to. =D
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On October 19 2009 02:19 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote:
Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (: Well good luck with that, fantasy is already out of one of the sl. So you might have to wait a bit longer than you want to.
Hopefully he will step it up in PL and make it count in the other SLs (: Hopefully Flash continues to drop out of non-Gom SLs as well n_n! HOORAY!
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well, leaving statistics and results aside and focusing on the actual play shown by both, what´s the difference between flash and fantasy?
flash got the best gamesense of all progamers, his timings are spot-on and deadly. he got the superior mechanics and is more reliable at beating mediocre opposition. he needs very long to fix flaws in his game, like e.g. the moronic "turrets are for noobs"-phase which kicked him out of both starleagues last season. he is great at both macro and cheesing, but doesnt mix them sufficiently, making him quite predictable.
fantasy got maybe the greatest strategic insight of all highclass progamers and thus is absolutely deadly in boX´s. he is very unpredictable, and imho without a doubt the best bo3 player in the world. he lacks mechanics though so in a straight up game he doesnt shine like flash does. his funky builds therefore are pretty much needed for him to win against guys like jaedong. this weakness translates into a bo5 weakness which is, to me at least, the reason why he still lacks an individual title. his vulture harass style has become quite predictable and inefficient recently.
imho flash obviously is the better player and the no. 1 terran right now. fantasy is not far behind, but tbh i dont think he got the potential to catch up to flash. and keep in mind both are still young, so i wouldnt weight achievements in the form of titles too heavily when rating these players.
a side note: u should exclude games against bisu and jangbi respectively when assessing fantasy and stork. we all know that series against teammates got their own rules and often times are dominated by mindgames rather than skill.
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On October 19 2009 02:31 Black Gun wrote:
well, leaving statistics and results aside and focusing on the actual play shown by both, what´s the difference between flash and fantasy?
flash got the best gamesense of all progamers, his timings are spot-on and deadly. he got the superior mechanics and is more reliable at beating mediocre opposition. he needs very long to fix flaws in his game, like e.g. the moronic "turrets are for noobs"-phase which kicked him out of both starleagues last season. he is great at both macro and cheesing, but doesnt mix them sufficiently, making him quite predictable.
fantasy got maybe the greatest strategic insight of all highclass progamers and thus is absolutely deadly in boX´s. he is very unpredictable, and imho without a doubt the best bo3 player in the world. he lacks mechanics though so in a straight up game he doesnt shine like flash does. his funky builds therefore are pretty much needed for him to win against guys like jaedong. this weakness translates into a bo5 weakness which is, to me at least, the reason why he still lacks an individual title. his vulture harass style has become quite predictable and inefficient recently.
imho flash obviously is the better player and the no. 1 terran right now. fantasy is not far behind, but tbh i dont think he got the potential to catch up to flash. and keep in mind both are still young, so i wouldnt rate achievements in the form of titles too heavily when rating these players.
a side note: u should exclude games against bisu and jangbi respectively when assessing fantasy and stork. we all know that series against teammates got their own rules and often times are dominated by mindgames rather than skill.
Yo. Its over.
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On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote:
Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D
It has always been my dream to win a discussion on the internet. I am thrilled at having my dream turned into reality. Although there were many hardships along the way, since I never thought of giving up and since I had an enjoyable time, I was able to obtain my goal. Most people thought that I would lose and even I thought that I would have to practice very hard just to make the probability for victory a 50/50 chance. I gave it my best and thankfully it was enough!
I would like to thank all my friends who supported me and helped me achieve this victory. Also a special thank you to my family whose faith in me was a huge help. And a shoutout to all my fans out there; I would never be where I am now without you. I hope I will be able to continue on this path and win more discussions in the future.
God bless America! Peace out!
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On October 19 2009 02:32 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 02:31 Black Gun wrote:
well, leaving statistics and results aside and focusing on the actual play shown by both, what´s the difference between flash and fantasy?
flash got the best gamesense of all progamers, his timings are spot-on and deadly. he got the superior mechanics and is more reliable at beating mediocre opposition. he needs very long to fix flaws in his game, like e.g. the moronic "turrets are for noobs"-phase which kicked him out of both starleagues last season. he is great at both macro and cheesing, but doesnt mix them sufficiently, making him quite predictable.
fantasy got maybe the greatest strategic insight of all highclass progamers and thus is absolutely deadly in boX´s. he is very unpredictable, and imho without a doubt the best bo3 player in the world. he lacks mechanics though so in a straight up game he doesnt shine like flash does. his funky builds therefore are pretty much needed for him to win against guys like jaedong. this weakness translates into a bo5 weakness which is, to me at least, the reason why he still lacks an individual title. his vulture harass style has become quite predictable and inefficient recently.
imho flash obviously is the better player and the no. 1 terran right now. fantasy is not far behind, but tbh i dont think he got the potential to catch up to flash. and keep in mind both are still young, so i wouldnt rate achievements in the form of titles too heavily when rating these players.
a side note: u should exclude games against bisu and jangbi respectively when assessing fantasy and stork. we all know that series against teammates got their own rules and often times are dominated by mindgames rather than skill.
Yo. Its over.
Lol yes thank you Jesus I was worried I would be tempted to enter into more shit. It was a good post and had good points, but I think this horse is glue already.
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On October 19 2009 02:38 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote:
Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (: YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D It has always been my dream to win a discussion on the internet. I am thrilled at having my dream turned into reality. Although there were many hardships along the way, since I never thought of giving up and since I had an enjoyable time, I was able to obtain my goal. Most people thought that I would lose and even I thought that I would have to practice very hard just to make the probability for victory a 50/50 chance. I gave it my best and thankfully it was enough! I would like to thank all my friends who supported me and helped me achieve this victory. Also a special thank you to my family whose faith in me was a huge help. And a shoutout to all my fans out there; I would never be where I am now without you. I hope I will be able to continue on this path and win more discussions in the future. God bless America! Peace out!
Yo... Don't have to rub it in -_-;
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On October 19 2009 02:38 Holgerius wrote:
I would like to thank all my friends who supported me and helped me achieve this victory. Also a special thank you to my family whose faith in me was a huge help. And a shoutout to all my fans out there; I would never be where I am now without you. I hope I will be able to continue on this path and win more discussions in the future.
God bless America! Peace out!
Sounds like you just won an oscar here.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
