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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong. I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On October 18 2009 19:53 fanatacist wrote: I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal. Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated.  However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he? If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 18 2009 20:09 Holgerius wrote: Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he? If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming. No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad. Top 10 Zergs: Jaedong, Calm, Effort, Fake Yellow, Luxury, Zero, Kwanro? July?... That's 8. I'm sure that Hyuk is already in top 10, given that anything after July is a joke (815 lol?). | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On October 18 2009 20:44 fanatacist wrote: No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad. Top 10 Zergs: Jaedong, Calm, Effort, Fake Yellow, Luxury, Zero, Kwanro? July?... That's 8. I'm sure that Hyuk is already in top 10, given that anything after July is a joke (815 lol?). I wouldn't call a guy with a 5-5 record (including a very recent Bo3 win) against Jaedong himself bad at a PvZ. Stork's PvZ has always been his weakest MU, and he's not the best Protoss at it, but it's far from bad. It's... special. He lacks game sense and confidence (he really doesn't know to kill off a Zerg even when he has a massive advantage), but that has led to some really hilarious and entertaining 1 hour long games. :D Stork is awesome. He was a way cooler Silver King then the current one (that overrated Fantasy-dude) is. Both type-b and by.hero are pretty much on the same level as Hyuk. | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 18 2009 21:02 Holgerius wrote: I wouldn't call a guy with a 5-5 record (including a very recent Bo3 win) against Jaedong himself bad at a PvZ. Stork's PvZ has always been his weakest MU, and he's not the best Protoss at it, but it's far from bad. It's... special. He lacks game sense and confidence (he really doesn't know to kill off a Zerg even when he has a massive advantage), but that has led to some really hilarious and entertaining 1 hour long games. :D Stork is awesome. He was a way cooler Silver King then the current one (that overrated Fantasy-dude) is. Both type-b and by.hero are pretty much on the same level as Hyuk. Yea that's true but Jaedong's ZvP isn't his best MU either. Remember how he basically learned how to play it in his OSL vs. Stork? IIRC (and I'm too lazy to check), a few of Stork's wins came from that period (and I think his record is a lot bigger than 5-5 vs JD, something like 11-10 or something?). His lacking of game sense in the MU is the best way to describe it - although I've seen Bisu play some bad games, either by making a basic mistake (ramp vs. JD) or not incorporating the map into his play (Tears of the Protoss), Stork's consistent (?-?)a face and PvZ skill in general is just depressing to watch. Fantasy actually rapes faces. Stork's win against Fantasy was awesome in the showmatch, but Fantasy took Jaedong... TWICE... In PL FINALS. That's fucking awesome. Yea, I forgot about those two. Hero moreso than type-b, I think type-b just eeks by once in a while, making surprise appearances in lower number Ro#'s because of weak brackets or chance wins against better players. Remember when he got to the Ro4 or Ro8 of something and then got stomped by SkyHigh (iirc)? Shit was brutal. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On October 18 2009 21:47 fanatacist wrote: Yea that's true but Jaedong's ZvP isn't his best MU either. Remember how he basically learned how to play it in his OSL vs. Stork? IIRC (and I'm too lazy to check), a few of Stork's wins came from that period (and I think his record is a lot bigger than 5-5 vs JD, something like 11-10 or something?). His lacking of game sense in the MU is the best way to describe it - although I've seen Bisu play some bad games, either by making a basic mistake (ramp vs. JD) or not incorporating the map into his play (Tears of the Protoss), Stork's consistent (?-?)a face and PvZ skill in general is just depressing to watch. Fantasy actually rapes faces. Stork's win against Fantasy was awesome in the showmatch, but Fantasy took Jaedong... TWICE... In PL FINALS. That's fucking awesome. Yea, I forgot about those two. Hero moreso than type-b, I think type-b just eeks by once in a while, making surprise appearances in lower number Ro#'s because of weak brackets or chance wins against better players. Remember when he got to the Ro4 or Ro8 of something and then got stomped by SkyHigh (iirc)? Shit was brutal. Just looked in TLPD. They're actually 7-7 (I knew they were even). Stork is 4-2 against Jaedong in 2009. :D Lost the most important ones, though (OSL). Bisu, for example, is way ahead of Stork in PvZ, but I just won't accept anyone calling Stork's PvZ bad. It is, as I said, special. :D If you consider his epic 1 hour games (vs Gorush and GGplay for example) depressing, it's your loss. I love them. Fantasy is overrated. He's really good, creative and most likely the second best Terran alive, but there are people who say he is better than Flash. Hence overrated. He cheesed Jaedong in PL, yeah. That was cute. But then he got thrashed in their Bo5 in OSL. Fantasy is the Neo Silver King.  Unlike Stork, though, Fantasy will never get that gold. :D | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 18 2009 22:17 Holgerius wrote: Just looked in TLPD. They're actually 7-7 (I knew they were even). Stork is 4-2 against Jaedong in 2009. :D Lost the most important ones, though (OSL). Bisu, for example, is way ahead of Stork in PvZ, but I just won't accept anyone calling Stork's PvZ bad. It is, as I said, special. :D If you consider his epic 1 hour games (vs Gorush and GGplay for example) depressing, it's your loss. I love them. Fantasy is overrated. He's really good, creative and most likely the second best Terran alive, but there are people who say he is better than Flash. Hence overrated. He cheesed Jaedong in PL, yeah. That was cute. But then he got thrashed in their Bo5 in OSL. Fantasy is the Neo Silver King. Unlike Stork, though, Fantasy will never get that gold. :DThey're depressing when you try to view them with the idea that he is a good player in mind. They are awesome when you watch them knowing that he doesn't know how to play the MU. There is no excuse for the game vs. GGplay. Flash used to cheese A LOT. Look at Fantasy's records vs. Jaedong and Bisu and compare Flash's records to the same players, especially in 2009. Although I think they are about even, I don't think it's fair to say that he is only "most likely" the second best Terran, he is second best at least. He didn't cheese Jaedong in the first Outsider game, that's for sure. Also, Fantasy didn't just choke at finals like Stork does, he lost to straight up good play (to Stork, for example, whose PvT is admittedly monstrous from time to time). | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Though Jaedong's kicked Flash out of 3-4 tournaments since then. It just goes to show that if you can't get a series win against Jaedong, no matter how well your overall record is, you have to get lucky to win a title. Calm and Flash pulled it off (Forgg too, I suppose). Or just some ability to take clutch wins when you aren't the favorite in individual leagues. I'm a horrible horrible Flash fanboy but it's kind of hard to recognize Fantasy as #1 (which people have been doing for awhile, until like just this month) when he just can't seem to grasp a title. It's the same thing that happened with Stork and Bisu awhile back. Stork playing great, but Bisu had the titles and the #1 protoss slot until that fateful OSL. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On October 18 2009 22:27 fanatacist wrote: They're depressing when you try to view them with the idea that he is a good player in mind. They are awesome when you watch them knowing that he doesn't know how to play the MU. There is no excuse for the game vs. GGplay. Flash used to cheese A LOT. Look at Fantasy's records vs. Jaedong and Bisu and compare Flash's records to the same players, especially in 2009. Although I think they are about even, I don't think it's fair to say that he is only "most likely" the second best Terran, he is second best at least. He didn't cheese Jaedong in the first Outsider game, that's for sure. Also, Fantasy didn't just choke at finals like Stork does, he lost to straight up good play (to Stork, for example, whose PvT is admittedly monstrous from time to time). Ok, let us agree that Stork's PvZ specifically is bad, but he's a terrific player overall and that his class and the skills that he has (splendid micro etc) that are common to all MU's translates into his PvZ making him at least decent at it anyway. Or something. Stork is awesome...Ok, I'll agree that Fantasy is most definitely the second best terran (I'm a Leta fanboy, so that hurts t_t), but he's far from Flash's level. As TTT said, come back when Fantasy gets a title. I would also like to quote you: If you are good enough to beat Jaedong and Bisu you have no excuse for losing to Hogil and Sangho. Fantasy loses to Hogil, Saint, Hyvaa, Stats, Yoonjoong etc resulting in him going 29-21 in PL. There's no excuse for that. Really. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 18 2009 23:08 Holgerius wrote: Ok, let us agree that Stork's PvZ specifically is bad, but he's a terrific player overall and that his class and the skills that he has (splendid micro etc) that are common to all MU's translates into his PvZ making him at least decent at it anyway. Or something. Stork is awesome...Ok, I'll agree that Fantasy is most definitely the second best terran (I'm a Leta fanboy, so that hurts t_t), but he's far from Flash's level. As TTT said, come back when Fantasy gets a title. I would also like to quote you: Fantasy loses to Hogil, Saint, Hyvaa, Stats, Yoonjoong etc resulting in him going 29-21 in PL. There's no excuse for that. Really. Stork is good, I just don't like him. Considering that he is probably the second best Protoss overall (when JangBi and Best aren't slumping, he is 3d probably) his PvZ is bad. His PvP is good. His PvT is great. His mechanics are good. In 2009 Flash won GOM, a tournament where SKT1 wasn't even fielded. In 2008 he won Bacchus over Stork, which was impressive. Fantasy has two silvers, a 3-2 to Stork in Stork's best MU, and 3-1 (iirc) to Jaedong in his second best MU. Looking at these facts on paper, it is evident that Flash has more success than Fantasy, but that is not always a determining factor of who is the better player. Boxer vs. Yellow - their record is surprisingly even, with Yellow being one of the most dominant players at the time, but the difference in their achievements is mind-boggling. Players with similar skill levels can accomplish different things based on different situations - map, opponent, matchup, style and how it conflicts with the opponent's style... The reason why it's hard for me to say that it's clear-cut that Flash is better than Fantasy is because Flash is famous for first being the cheesiest player around, then for getting surprisingly good, then for going 14 cc every game, now for being the best turtle ever. He just doesn't seem like an intelligent player, going back and forth from one extreme to the other like a metronome, staying in each polar opposite for far too long. Does it take skill to turtle properly? Yes. Does he do other things besides that that take skill? Of course. But that is his predominant tactic as of now - not saying that it's good or bad, it's worked out well for him (except vs. a few select players like Bisu and Jaedong in the past year). Fantasy plays a harass-heavy style, and rarely seems to make strategical mistakes (his match vs. Stork being a glaring example, although I think it's 50/50 between his risky expansion and Stork's good play). You could attribute that to his being on SKT1 with Boxer and Oov, but you also have to consider that not everyone who gets taught strategy can learn it and comprehend it and know how to use it - to me, and I admit this is my opinion, he seems like an intelligent player, kind of like Savior back in the day. I also admit that recently he has been following the trend of "harass work? win. harass fail? lose," but that same concept can be said about Flash at every point in his career (replacing harass with cheese, 14cc, or turtle) except his god-mode Bacchus run. To summarize, I would be hard-pressed to put Flash head and shoulders above fantasy. I think it's very much arguable who the better player is, despite medals or ELO or whatever. EDIT: I was trolling when I said the whole Hogil whoever the fuck thing before, I thought that was obvious given Bisu's elimination thanks to Shine lol. | ||
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Sharp-eYe
Canada642 Posts
On October 18 2009 20:09 Holgerius wrote: Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he? If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming. Stork has decent PvZ. He still has a 53 % win rate for the past wat 5 years? Also, i like that fact that he doesnt always go fast expo into sair/dt every single game! | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 18 2009 23:01 TwoToneTerran wrote: Notice that Flash won both his titles and Fantasy lost both of his, when the common factor here is Jaedong. (Oh and Jaedong beat Stork while Fantasy...lost to Stork.) Though Jaedong's kicked Flash out of 3-4 tournaments since then. It just goes to show that if you can't get a series win against Jaedong, no matter how well your overall record is, you have to get lucky to win a title. Calm and Flash pulled it off (Forgg too, I suppose). Or just some ability to take clutch wins when you aren't the favorite in individual leagues. I'm a horrible horrible Flash fanboy but it's kind of hard to recognize Fantasy as #1 (which people have been doing for awhile, until like just this month) when he just can't seem to grasp a title. It's the same thing that happened with Stork and Bisu awhile back. Stork playing great, but Bisu had the titles and the #1 protoss slot until that fateful OSL. I agree that winning a title without beating Jaedong would be a feat of luck in the current era, which says a lot about his dominance. But I also have to say the same thing about Bisu (maybe not in this coming season due to maps, or whatever reason he had for losing to Shine like a newb). Bisu, despite lacking an OSL title or a recent MSL win (post-Bisu vs. Jangbi double finals), is generally a major stopping block for many title hopefuls. Flash hasn't won a series against Bisu in a while, and was lucky (in my opinion) that SKT1 was not in GOM, or I doubt he would have achieved the title as easily if at all. Fantasy 3-0'd Bisu in their last series. Fantasy's appearance in finals at all proves that he is able to overcome obstacles, and like I said before his losses weren't chokes like Stork has shown in the past - they were losses to players playing at the top of their game. That is an argument against Fantasy in itself, but it also gives him credit for his play; being able to get that far and come so close. Close isn't a title, but it does mean something. All I said is that they are close to even in my mind - I don't think I tried to argue that Fantasy was BETTER than Flash in every sense of the word, just that he wasn't as far behind Flash as others seem to suggest. I disagree about Stork and Bisu - Bisu's win over Stork in MSL + his wins over Stork before and after the OSL title made it clear at least to me that the OSL did not change who the #1 Toss was. Bisu's consequent double wins over Jangbi, who supposedly rapes Stork on a consistent basis (or raped back then) further cemented that fact. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 18 2009 23:36 Holgerius wrote: Trolling or not, going 29-21 on PL is inexcusable if you are supposed to be the best Terran in the world. He is not as consistent as Flash, nor does he have a title (which Flash does). So, Flash is more consistent, and has a higher peak level. He's just a so much better player overall. Flash can, as you yourself said, play many different styles. Fantasy is not nearly as complete. He is, for instance, incapable of proper bio control vs Zerg. The only finals that Flash appeared in since Bacchus was GOM where neither Bisu nor Fantasy were present. Fantasy has appeared in 2 OSL finals. Just because KTF forced Flash to slave for their proleague results (to no success, btw) doesn't mean that we can ignore his lack of presence in the major individual leagues. It's a trade-off - Fantasy traded PL appearances for individual league performance, Flash did the opposite. Flash played different styles, with each style being specific to one time frame of his career. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 18 2009 23:39 TwoToneTerran wrote: Hold on editing in the rest of the post, accidentally posted early. I will be sleeping so take your time. I'll respond later. | ||
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