Both SKT and KHAN had a slow start last week, why do you think that happened?
OneOther: Let's face it: KHAN is not the hottest team right now. With JangBi and FBH slumping, combined with unfavorable Protoss maps, KHAN does not have the same force it boasted in previous seasons. But that's why I will keep rooting for them. Just when you think they will continue to decline, they come back and surprise us. Nobody expected KHAN to beat STX in playoffs last year or to come within a game of taking down CJ. See the thing is, KHAN likes to try only when they are playing versus a decent team. SKT qualifies as one I suppose.SKT losing to eStro doesn't mean much. Every player and team has off-days. SKT isn't quite as bad as they seemed then.
riptide:Well, SKT actually got off to a flying start by 3-0ing Stars. The loss to eSTRO was performed in the name of science. Winning too much early on can really mess up statistical analysis, and SKT knows and cares about the nerds who crunch numbers. Having said that, I dont really know why KHAN got off to aslow start. I'm surprised they actually got off to a start at all. I'm still laughing about how they played FireBatHero in their opener. I mean, did they want to lose? LOL. Lets look at SKT vs KHAN right now, and specifically the lineups. Which game will be the key of winning the match.
OneOther:: KHAN needs to win the second match - Miracle vs Fantasy. Thankfully Fantasy has the habit of failing when it matters.As awesome as Great is, I hope KHAN wins it in three so he doesn't have to face Bisu. I expect Stork to stomp Hyuk (I realize Hyuk has been playing well lately but fuck it, he's still a SKT Zerg). I also think Chavi will get the big W just because BeSt's PvZ is pretty hilarious.
riptide: Actually, this week's opener is kinda the warmup for SKT. The fixture vs HERO is what everyone is really practicing for. Fantasy/Miracle, Best/Chavi(LOL) and Bisu/great - are you kidding me? The only game KHAN stands a chance in is Hyuk/Stork and even there, well, you don't need to be a Broodwar analyst to know that he's been at top form lately. This will be the closest, and thereby the most important match, but hey, I'm not going to mince my words - Stork is going down.
Ace match between Bisu and Stork seems like a possibilty as well, having in mind the map is Fighting Spirit. What do you think will be the outcome of this clash of the titans?
OneOther:: Stork. He's a different player when facing other powerhouses, i.e. Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash.Biased, blind fanboys such as you know who *cough cough* might say that Bisu will be the clear victor. Too bad they're wrong every time. Maybe they learned their lesson, I don't know.
riptide: Well GOMTV MSL S2 is gonna happen. WCG Korea 2009 is gonna happen. Years go by, seasons change, but to Bisu, PvP is still the definition of ez mode. He's 9-1 in his last ten games and sits at 68% in the matchup. Do I really need to say more? Besides, the only PvP Stork is good at is not Broodwar related.
SKT and KHAN are the two protoss heaviest teams in Proleague, but the maps seem bad for toss yet again. How do you think both squads will do in Round 1?
OneOther:: I expect both SKT and KHAN to do well in Round 1. Yes, the maps are bad for Protoss but both teams are too stacked and well-coached. I hope the two teams face each other in playoffs. There's nothing sweeter than my KHAN boys beating down SKT.
riptide: Well, for one, I wouldn't dump SKT and KHAN together. Their playing and coaching styles are different, and while KHAN is heavily dependent on the Stork/Jangbi duo, SKT has Bisu/Fantasy/Best to choose from in terms of aces. Admittedly, Best has been sliding out of that equation for a while with some less than stellar play, but he's still miles above the KHAN fail machine that used to complete their PPT trio. While Bisu will no doubt find it difficult on anti-Protoss maps, he is also the guy to find a way around the imbalances. I mean, let's not forget that it's him who downed Savior and brought in an era of FE darksair. The SKT frontman changed history, and some map imbalances aren't going to stop him from bagging an embarrassing amount of Proleague wins, just like last season.
Any last words?
OneOther:: I better see all of you with KHAN flags in the live report thread. We have to prove that KHAN in fact has the best fanbase.
riptide: I'm not a big fan of beatdowns. I think that the strong should play the strong, not the weak. Sadly, today, the reigning Proleague champions are being forced to play a team that barely made it into the playoffs last season, and being the gentlemen they are, will do so in style. KHAN isn't going to get any mercy from the Masters of the Universe, and rightly so. Yet we, as SKT fans should go easy on our counterparts in this thread. See, sometimes it's cool to root for the underdog, even when you know the underdog is going to be pounded into the ground. Thus, in conclusion, we applaud our compatriots in blue for their unwavering loyalty to their team and wish them all the very best as they step up to face the dynasty that forged Starcraft as we know it. Good luck KHAN fans, you guys are going to need it.
Poll: Who are you rooting for? (Vote): SKT (Vote): KHAN
Poll: Who is going to win? (Vote): SKT (Vote): KHAN
Alright, in all seriousness: Game 1: Hyuk has been doing well recently, though Stork is no ordinary Protoss. He's not the best PvZer out there, but he's still Stork. It all depends on how much WoW Stork was playing during KHAN's pratice hours to predict the winner of this match. I do hope Hyuk will do well, but it's likely that KHAN will get a win here (still, HYUK I BELIEVE). Game 2: It's 50-50, depending on whether Myung Hoon will be fantasy or failtasy. He's been on a WLWL streak so hopefully it will end up with a win. Game 3: Best has been sucking and is currently on the edge of being B-team'd. I'm not sure if Match Point favors zergs, but anyway Best's PvZ is mediocre. Chavi should have this. Game 4: Bisu lost a PvZ not long ago, but it was OSL, so it's excusable (//fanboyism_ON). He should still be the favorite here.
So after the first four games, it should be a 2-2 or 1-3 (with KHAN winning). If it comes down to ACE, I would expect a Bisu vs Jangbi or Bisu vs Stork. And it's PvP so Bisu ftw!
Yeah, I can't see SKT1 dropping this. No matter how bad he's been lately, there's no way Fantasy will lose to Miracle. Then as long as both BeSt and Bisu don't lose, it goes to Ace, SKT1 sends Bisu, SKT1 wins.
winner of Hyuk vs Stork is gonna make their team win. i would give bisu a 56% chance to beat stork but how hes been playing and stork returning to form im slightly favoring stork. plz no ace match :\
One thing's for sure. We get to see how PvZ balance work out for the first time, since amazingly there are THREE of them after a week of mirrors. And all PvZs feature a superior toss vs inferior zerg(relatively speaking).
Go Khan! But kind of scared given how badly they did last week.
Yes, I know that KHAN hasn't been doing that well lately, and yes, I know that SKT won the last year's proleague, and yes, I know that this season's maps are not Protoss-favored, and yes, I know that Samsung lost their first match of the year to a statistically weaker team than SKT...but you know what?
I think Samsung can do this. If they've shown anything over the past season, it's the ability to pull victories in totally unexpected places--remember last year's playoffs? And most Samsung players also seem to do better against strong players and often lose random games to weaker ones--and the same applies to the team itself. Plus, add in that Stork has been playing great lately, and that no doubt the team's been practicing extra hard for this...and you know what? I think they can do it.
Hopefully SKT T1 loses and fantasy cries. Nothing would make me happier... the worst terran player in the world in tears. Sadly, I really don't like Khan either, but I guess Chavi and Great will win their matches since they're playing ZvP, and then Miracle should make Fantasy cry with some bm command centers. 3-1 Khan. .
Boo on riptide and his trash talking. I'm surprised that riptide added best to their ace line up. Hes failing like fbh is. SKT's ace choices are also down to just two people, fantasy and bisu. What are you smoking?
On October 17 2009 10:17 JWD wrote: I just traded ZerO for Hyuk so….
don't let me down Hyuk 'ol boy!!
Did the same thing =]
it seemed like an obvious move…Hyuk plays against Stork and Sea who are both good, but ZerO only has one game this week and it's against JD. Since I have Jaedong on my team, that matchup was especially bad news.
Let's hope Z>X map balance can carry Hyuk to two wins!!
On October 17 2009 11:02 Sunyveil wrote: I really don't like KHAN, but I think it would be great to see bisu lose twice in one night, so I'm hoping a 3-2 KHAN victory here
normally, i would go "psh, skt duh.." but after Bisu slumping hard and losing to Shine with fantasy being eliminated as well, i'm not so sure.............
On October 17 2009 11:02 Sunyveil wrote: I really don't like KHAN, but I think it would be great to see bisu lose twice in one night, so I'm hoping a 3-2 KHAN victory here
As happy as I would be to see fantasy humiliated again, there's no way he can possibly lose to Miracle. Fantasy is the 2nd or 3rd best TvTer in Starcraft, who the fuck is Miracle?
3-0 for Khan, You heard this here First (I dont know if im the first lol) But I hope for a ACE game betwen Stork and Bisu or Stork vs Fantasy. Maybe Jangbi is prepared for the Ace game just like the game against STX (Jangbi > Calm)
This looks like a difficult match to call. I'm guessing that Stork will beat Hyuk, and BeSt will beat Chavi, but the rest seems pretty uncertain to me. Hoping that SKT wins!
On October 17 2009 13:19 NO MY LIQUIBET wrote: is there a point to hyuk expanding there instead of his nat first? To trick stork into thinking he didn't expo yet?
So he won't have to put up with probe harass/delay.
Stork actually played fantastic against Hyuk. He saved a few HTs and stormed Hydras like a class Toss would do. BUT he just need to macro up a bit more with more Gateways. He need to get the 3rd expo. A player with 2 base would never beat another with 4 bases running. Gj to Hyuk but Stork had a good effort.
its amazing how stork connected with alot of his storms and yet still got rolled... he kept the high templars alive but they did little to stop rallying hydras...
On October 17 2009 13:36 jello24 wrote: its amazing how stork connected with alot of his storms and yet still got rolled... he kept the high templars alive but they did little to stop rallying hydras...
i feel bad for protoss.
Unfortunately most of his storms were on hydras that were moving and not stationary and clumped.
On October 17 2009 13:37 jalstar wrote: if toss is so bad why is skt sending out Bisu AND Best?
Bisu is good enough that he's still the favorite against any zerg Khan could field. Best sucks now, but Match Point is fairly Protoss favored in PvZ, and the only Terran they might realistically field is utter trash at TvP.
On October 17 2009 14:31 Holgerius wrote: Not a lot of LR'ing going on here. Too bad, I can't watch both streams at the same time (super bad computer).
best is pretty monstrous right now macromode and multitask-wise. honestly im impressed chavi has yet to be steamrolled, he seems to be at the very least keeping up with best.
moment of truth, big engagement @ 11:30.
best seems to get the upper hand but chavi is doom dropping his main (or is that his nat, i cant tell lol). best clears that out as chavi fends off bests main forces. still pretty even considering that whole thing.
another confrontation,. best again the agressor and again chavi fends him off EXCEPT STORMS WOW wow storms win the battle for best and now hes just going to march in to chavis main
EDIT: chavi ggs. i was actually pretty impressed with his play, especially considering best was really rolling there.
On October 17 2009 14:46 Jonvvv wrote: Damn, no Bisu Have to wait one week to see him play
Damn i was about to point out that there would be a SKT vs MBC on the 20th but then i looked up the calender and realized that Bisu wouldn't be sent out for the first 4 games ... and i highly doubt that MBC can make it to Ace so ya ... one week =(
On October 17 2009 14:46 Jonvvv wrote: Damn, no Bisu Have to wait one week to see him play
Damn i was about to point out that there would be a SKT vs MBC on the 20th but then i looked up the calender and realized that Bisu wouldn't be sent out for the first 4 games ... and i highly doubt that MBC can make it to Ace so ya ... one week =(
Best wins 1 game against a random zerg on a team down 0-2, with bonjwa next to come on his super sayian pvz matchup, meaning 100% loss anyway for the team, so no point even palying as itll jsut delay the team from getting on the team bus to go home to sleep and rest
On October 17 2009 15:34 fearus wrote: Best wins 1 game against a random zerg on a team down 0-2, with bonjwa next to come on his super sayian pvz matchup, meaning 100% loss anyway for the team, so no point even palying as itll jsut delay the team from getting on the team bus to go home to sleep and rest
and his out of his slump?
Best of his slump? Not when he loses to a no name terran in first round of prelims!
Wow, Hyuk really is on fire. I feel sorry for Khan. They haven´t been able to in-breed anything good lately, and if they stick to their no buying policy, they are bound to become the mediocre team they once were.
On October 17 2009 23:54 synapse wrote: Stork might have won if he played against a good player, yes?
he has no motivation against players like hyuk...
It seriously seems like that sometimes. I remember last season when he beat Flash, Jaedong and Bisu, just to lose to Hogil, Shine and Sangho within the same timeframe. Stork is weird.
On October 17 2009 23:54 synapse wrote: Stork might have won if he played against a good player, yes?
he has no motivation against players like hyuk...
It seriously seems like that sometimes. I remember last season when he beat Flash, Jaedong and Bisu, just to lose to Hogil, Shine and Sangho within the same timeframe. Stork is weird.
I think that's called a fluke player, not a skilled but unmotivated player. If you are good enough to beat Jaedong and Bisu you have no excuse for losing to Hogil and Sangho.
On October 18 2009 04:11 fanatacist wrote: I think that's called a fluke player, not a skilled but unmotivated player. If you are good enough to beat Jaedong and Bisu you have no excuse for losing to Hogil and Sangho.
So Bisu is a fluke player too for losing to Shine? :O
On October 17 2009 23:54 synapse wrote: Stork might have won if he played against a good player, yes?
he has no motivation against players like hyuk...
It seriously seems like that sometimes. I remember last season when he beat Flash, Jaedong and Bisu, just to lose to Hogil, Shine and Sangho within the same timeframe. Stork is weird.
I think that's called a fluke player, not a skilled but unmotivated player. If you are good enough to beat Jaedong and Bisu you have no excuse for losing to Hogil and Sangho.
Yeah, beating the best player of each race is clearly just a fluke. Stork sucks.
And as Yiruru said, if Stork is a fluke player, what does that make Bisu? XD
On October 17 2009 23:54 synapse wrote: Stork might have won if he played against a good player, yes?
he has no motivation against players like hyuk...
It seriously seems like that sometimes. I remember last season when he beat Flash, Jaedong and Bisu, just to lose to Hogil, Shine and Sangho within the same timeframe. Stork is weird.
I think that's called a fluke player, not a skilled but unmotivated player. If you are good enough to beat Jaedong and Bisu you have no excuse for losing to Hogil and Sangho.
Hm... Does jaedong, flash, bisu, who loses to stork the fluke player, count as fluke players? I mean come on, this fluke player named stork has equal or better win loss record than those three. What a bunch of fluke players.
On October 18 2009 06:45 Sharp-eYe wrote: did anyone record the games? the VODS dont take this long to come out...
Just wait. You usually have to wait a day before vods come out.
On October 17 2009 23:54 synapse wrote: Stork might have won if he played against a good player, yes?
he has no motivation against players like hyuk...
It seriously seems like that sometimes. I remember last season when he beat Flash, Jaedong and Bisu, just to lose to Hogil, Shine and Sangho within the same timeframe. Stork is weird.
I think that's called a fluke player, not a skilled but unmotivated player. If you are good enough to beat Jaedong and Bisu you have no excuse for losing to Hogil and Sangho.
Hm... Does jaedong, flash, bisu, who loses to stork the fluke player, count as fluke players? I mean come on, this fluke player named stork has equal or better win loss record than those three. What a bunch of fluke players.
On October 18 2009 06:45 Sharp-eYe wrote: did anyone record the games? the VODS dont take this long to come out...
Just wait. You usually have to wait a day before vods come out.
Last season there were many times when VOD's were uploaded only hours after the games were played. I feel that the time has increased recently (not complaining though, just saying).
i know you guys don't have bad intentions when you ask for vods, but remember that it is all completely volunteer work. not that suggestions aren't welcome, it is just unrealistic and very poor form to demand more from a free system that uploads vods one day after they are played. do you realize how amazing that is? please have some patience =]
On October 18 2009 08:14 intrigue wrote: i know you guys don't have bad intentions when you ask for vods, but remember that it is all completely volunteer work. not that suggestions aren't welcome, it is just unrealistic and very poor form to demand more from a free system that uploads vods one day after they are played. do you realize how amazing that is? please have some patience =]
QFT although the people who have recently asked/commented on this did their best to not come off as insulting or demanding.
On October 18 2009 08:14 intrigue wrote: i know you guys don't have bad intentions when you ask for vods, but remember that it is all completely volunteer work. not that suggestions aren't welcome, it is just unrealistic and very poor form to demand more from a free system that uploads vods one day after they are played. do you realize how amazing that is? please have some patience =]
eah i know, but last season they were generally out within 3 hours.. i was just surprised thats all
Hyuk did not lose badly, he was in the lead and threw away the game probably because he made a silly mistake, if you actually watch the game..he did kill Hwasin in the STX cup final in his all kill...so you can't count him out.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad.
That's 8. I'm sure that Hyuk is already in top 10, given that anything after July is a joke (815 lol?).
I wouldn't call a guy with a 5-5 record (including a very recent Bo3 win) against Jaedong himself bad at a PvZ. Stork's PvZ has always been his weakest MU, and he's not the best Protoss at it, but it's far from bad. It's... special. He lacks game sense and confidence (he really doesn't know to kill off a Zerg even when he has a massive advantage), but that has led to some really hilarious and entertaining 1 hour long games. :D Stork is awesome. He was a way cooler Silver King then the current one (that overrated Fantasy-dude) is.
Both type-b and by.hero are pretty much on the same level as Hyuk.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad.
That's 8. I'm sure that Hyuk is already in top 10, given that anything after July is a joke (815 lol?).
I wouldn't call a guy with a 5-5 record (including a very recent Bo3 win) against Jaedong himself bad at a PvZ. Stork's PvZ has always been his weakest MU, and he's not the best Protoss at it, but it's far from bad. It's... special. He lacks game sense and confidence (he really doesn't know to kill off a Zerg even when he has a massive advantage), but that has led to some really hilarious and entertaining 1 hour long games. :D Stork is awesome. He was a way cooler Silver King then the current one (that overrated Fantasy-dude) is.
Both type-b and by.hero are pretty much on the same level as Hyuk.
Yea that's true but Jaedong's ZvP isn't his best MU either. Remember how he basically learned how to play it in his OSL vs. Stork? IIRC (and I'm too lazy to check), a few of Stork's wins came from that period (and I think his record is a lot bigger than 5-5 vs JD, something like 11-10 or something?). His lacking of game sense in the MU is the best way to describe it - although I've seen Bisu play some bad games, either by making a basic mistake (ramp vs. JD) or not incorporating the map into his play (Tears of the Protoss), Stork's consistent (?-?)a face and PvZ skill in general is just depressing to watch.
Fantasy actually rapes faces. Stork's win against Fantasy was awesome in the showmatch, but Fantasy took Jaedong... TWICE... In PL FINALS. That's fucking awesome.
Yea, I forgot about those two. Hero moreso than type-b, I think type-b just eeks by once in a while, making surprise appearances in lower number Ro#'s because of weak brackets or chance wins against better players. Remember when he got to the Ro4 or Ro8 of something and then got stomped by SkyHigh (iirc)? Shit was brutal.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad.
That's 8. I'm sure that Hyuk is already in top 10, given that anything after July is a joke (815 lol?).
I wouldn't call a guy with a 5-5 record (including a very recent Bo3 win) against Jaedong himself bad at a PvZ. Stork's PvZ has always been his weakest MU, and he's not the best Protoss at it, but it's far from bad. It's... special. He lacks game sense and confidence (he really doesn't know to kill off a Zerg even when he has a massive advantage), but that has led to some really hilarious and entertaining 1 hour long games. :D Stork is awesome. He was a way cooler Silver King then the current one (that overrated Fantasy-dude) is.
Both type-b and by.hero are pretty much on the same level as Hyuk.
Yea that's true but Jaedong's ZvP isn't his best MU either. Remember how he basically learned how to play it in his OSL vs. Stork? IIRC (and I'm too lazy to check), a few of Stork's wins came from that period (and I think his record is a lot bigger than 5-5 vs JD, something like 11-10 or something?). His lacking of game sense in the MU is the best way to describe it - although I've seen Bisu play some bad games, either by making a basic mistake (ramp vs. JD) or not incorporating the map into his play (Tears of the Protoss), Stork's consistent (?-?)a face and PvZ skill in general is just depressing to watch.
Fantasy actually rapes faces. Stork's win against Fantasy was awesome in the showmatch, but Fantasy took Jaedong... TWICE... In PL FINALS. That's fucking awesome.
Yea, I forgot about those two. Hero moreso than type-b, I think type-b just eeks by once in a while, making surprise appearances in lower number Ro#'s because of weak brackets or chance wins against better players. Remember when he got to the Ro4 or Ro8 of something and then got stomped by SkyHigh (iirc)? Shit was brutal.
Just looked in TLPD. They're actually 7-7 (I knew they were even). Stork is 4-2 against Jaedong in 2009. :D Lost the most important ones, though (OSL). Bisu, for example, is way ahead of Stork in PvZ, but I just won't accept anyone calling Stork's PvZ bad. It is, as I said, special. :D If you consider his epic 1 hour games (vs Gorush and GGplay for example) depressing, it's your loss. I love them.
Fantasy is overrated. He's really good, creative and most likely the second best Terran alive, but there are people who say he is better than Flash. Hence overrated. He cheesed Jaedong in PL, yeah. That was cute. But then he got thrashed in their Bo5 in OSL. Fantasy is the Neo Silver King. Unlike Stork, though, Fantasy will never get that gold. :D
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad.
That's 8. I'm sure that Hyuk is already in top 10, given that anything after July is a joke (815 lol?).
I wouldn't call a guy with a 5-5 record (including a very recent Bo3 win) against Jaedong himself bad at a PvZ. Stork's PvZ has always been his weakest MU, and he's not the best Protoss at it, but it's far from bad. It's... special. He lacks game sense and confidence (he really doesn't know to kill off a Zerg even when he has a massive advantage), but that has led to some really hilarious and entertaining 1 hour long games. :D Stork is awesome. He was a way cooler Silver King then the current one (that overrated Fantasy-dude) is.
Both type-b and by.hero are pretty much on the same level as Hyuk.
Yea that's true but Jaedong's ZvP isn't his best MU either. Remember how he basically learned how to play it in his OSL vs. Stork? IIRC (and I'm too lazy to check), a few of Stork's wins came from that period (and I think his record is a lot bigger than 5-5 vs JD, something like 11-10 or something?). His lacking of game sense in the MU is the best way to describe it - although I've seen Bisu play some bad games, either by making a basic mistake (ramp vs. JD) or not incorporating the map into his play (Tears of the Protoss), Stork's consistent (?-?)a face and PvZ skill in general is just depressing to watch.
Fantasy actually rapes faces. Stork's win against Fantasy was awesome in the showmatch, but Fantasy took Jaedong... TWICE... In PL FINALS. That's fucking awesome.
Yea, I forgot about those two. Hero moreso than type-b, I think type-b just eeks by once in a while, making surprise appearances in lower number Ro#'s because of weak brackets or chance wins against better players. Remember when he got to the Ro4 or Ro8 of something and then got stomped by SkyHigh (iirc)? Shit was brutal.
Just looked in TLPD. They're actually 7-7 (I knew they were even). Stork is 4-2 against Jaedong in 2009. :D Lost the most important ones, though (OSL). Bisu, for example, is way ahead of Stork in PvZ, but I just won't accept anyone calling Stork's PvZ bad. It is, as I said, special. :D If you consider his epic 1 hour games (vs Gorush and GGplay for example) depressing, it's your loss. I love them.
Fantasy is overrated. He's really good, creative and most likely the second best Terran alive, but there are people who say he is better than Flash. Hence overrated. He cheesed Jaedong in PL, yeah. That was cute. But then he got thrashed in their Bo5 in OSL. Fantasy is the Neo Silver King. Unlike Stork, though, Fantasy will never get that gold. :D
They're depressing when you try to view them with the idea that he is a good player in mind. They are awesome when you watch them knowing that he doesn't know how to play the MU. There is no excuse for the game vs. GGplay.
Flash used to cheese A LOT. Look at Fantasy's records vs. Jaedong and Bisu and compare Flash's records to the same players, especially in 2009. Although I think they are about even, I don't think it's fair to say that he is only "most likely" the second best Terran, he is second best at least. He didn't cheese Jaedong in the first Outsider game, that's for sure. Also, Fantasy didn't just choke at finals like Stork does, he lost to straight up good play (to Stork, for example, whose PvT is admittedly monstrous from time to time).
Yea, one in 2008 during his Bacchus OSL run and one for Gom three days later, leaving him with an impressive overall record of 5-11 vs. Jaedong, as opposed to 6-7 for Fantasy.
Notice that Flash won both his titles and Fantasy lost both of his, when the common factor here is Jaedong. (Oh and Jaedong beat Stork while Fantasy...lost to Stork.)
Though Jaedong's kicked Flash out of 3-4 tournaments since then. It just goes to show that if you can't get a series win against Jaedong, no matter how well your overall record is, you have to get lucky to win a title. Calm and Flash pulled it off (Forgg too, I suppose). Or just some ability to take clutch wins when you aren't the favorite in individual leagues.
I'm a horrible horrible Flash fanboy but it's kind of hard to recognize Fantasy as #1 (which people have been doing for awhile, until like just this month) when he just can't seem to grasp a title. It's the same thing that happened with Stork and Bisu awhile back. Stork playing great, but Bisu had the titles and the #1 protoss slot until that fateful OSL.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad.
That's 8. I'm sure that Hyuk is already in top 10, given that anything after July is a joke (815 lol?).
I wouldn't call a guy with a 5-5 record (including a very recent Bo3 win) against Jaedong himself bad at a PvZ. Stork's PvZ has always been his weakest MU, and he's not the best Protoss at it, but it's far from bad. It's... special. He lacks game sense and confidence (he really doesn't know to kill off a Zerg even when he has a massive advantage), but that has led to some really hilarious and entertaining 1 hour long games. :D Stork is awesome. He was a way cooler Silver King then the current one (that overrated Fantasy-dude) is.
Both type-b and by.hero are pretty much on the same level as Hyuk.
Yea that's true but Jaedong's ZvP isn't his best MU either. Remember how he basically learned how to play it in his OSL vs. Stork? IIRC (and I'm too lazy to check), a few of Stork's wins came from that period (and I think his record is a lot bigger than 5-5 vs JD, something like 11-10 or something?). His lacking of game sense in the MU is the best way to describe it - although I've seen Bisu play some bad games, either by making a basic mistake (ramp vs. JD) or not incorporating the map into his play (Tears of the Protoss), Stork's consistent (?-?)a face and PvZ skill in general is just depressing to watch.
Fantasy actually rapes faces. Stork's win against Fantasy was awesome in the showmatch, but Fantasy took Jaedong... TWICE... In PL FINALS. That's fucking awesome.
Yea, I forgot about those two. Hero moreso than type-b, I think type-b just eeks by once in a while, making surprise appearances in lower number Ro#'s because of weak brackets or chance wins against better players. Remember when he got to the Ro4 or Ro8 of something and then got stomped by SkyHigh (iirc)? Shit was brutal.
Just looked in TLPD. They're actually 7-7 (I knew they were even). Stork is 4-2 against Jaedong in 2009. :D Lost the most important ones, though (OSL). Bisu, for example, is way ahead of Stork in PvZ, but I just won't accept anyone calling Stork's PvZ bad. It is, as I said, special. :D If you consider his epic 1 hour games (vs Gorush and GGplay for example) depressing, it's your loss. I love them.
Fantasy is overrated. He's really good, creative and most likely the second best Terran alive, but there are people who say he is better than Flash. Hence overrated. He cheesed Jaedong in PL, yeah. That was cute. But then he got thrashed in their Bo5 in OSL. Fantasy is the Neo Silver King. Unlike Stork, though, Fantasy will never get that gold. :D
They're depressing when you try to view them with the idea that he is a good player in mind. They are awesome when you watch them knowing that he doesn't know how to play the MU. There is no excuse for the game vs. GGplay.
Flash used to cheese A LOT. Look at Fantasy's records vs. Jaedong and Bisu and compare Flash's records to the same players, especially in 2009. Although I think they are about even, I don't think it's fair to say that he is only "most likely" the second best Terran, he is second best at least. He didn't cheese Jaedong in the first Outsider game, that's for sure. Also, Fantasy didn't just choke at finals like Stork does, he lost to straight up good play (to Stork, for example, whose PvT is admittedly monstrous from time to time).
Ok, let us agree that Stork's PvZ specifically is bad, but he's a terrific player overall and that his class and the skills that he has (splendid micro etc) that are common to all MU's translates into his PvZ making him at least decent at it anyway. Or something. Stork is awesome...
Ok, I'll agree that Fantasy is most definitely the second best terran (I'm a Leta fanboy, so that hurts t_t), but he's far from Flash's level. As TTT said, come back when Fantasy gets a title. I would also like to quote you:
If you are good enough to beat Jaedong and Bisu you have no excuse for losing to Hogil and Sangho.
Fantasy loses to Hogil, Saint, Hyvaa, Stats, Yoonjoong etc resulting in him going 29-21 in PL. There's no excuse for that. Really.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
No, Stork is pretty bad at PvZ. The maps are imba as well. But Stork is still pretty bad.
That's 8. I'm sure that Hyuk is already in top 10, given that anything after July is a joke (815 lol?).
I wouldn't call a guy with a 5-5 record (including a very recent Bo3 win) against Jaedong himself bad at a PvZ. Stork's PvZ has always been his weakest MU, and he's not the best Protoss at it, but it's far from bad. It's... special. He lacks game sense and confidence (he really doesn't know to kill off a Zerg even when he has a massive advantage), but that has led to some really hilarious and entertaining 1 hour long games. :D Stork is awesome. He was a way cooler Silver King then the current one (that overrated Fantasy-dude) is.
Both type-b and by.hero are pretty much on the same level as Hyuk.
Yea that's true but Jaedong's ZvP isn't his best MU either. Remember how he basically learned how to play it in his OSL vs. Stork? IIRC (and I'm too lazy to check), a few of Stork's wins came from that period (and I think his record is a lot bigger than 5-5 vs JD, something like 11-10 or something?). His lacking of game sense in the MU is the best way to describe it - although I've seen Bisu play some bad games, either by making a basic mistake (ramp vs. JD) or not incorporating the map into his play (Tears of the Protoss), Stork's consistent (?-?)a face and PvZ skill in general is just depressing to watch.
Fantasy actually rapes faces. Stork's win against Fantasy was awesome in the showmatch, but Fantasy took Jaedong... TWICE... In PL FINALS. That's fucking awesome.
Yea, I forgot about those two. Hero moreso than type-b, I think type-b just eeks by once in a while, making surprise appearances in lower number Ro#'s because of weak brackets or chance wins against better players. Remember when he got to the Ro4 or Ro8 of something and then got stomped by SkyHigh (iirc)? Shit was brutal.
Just looked in TLPD. They're actually 7-7 (I knew they were even). Stork is 4-2 against Jaedong in 2009. :D Lost the most important ones, though (OSL). Bisu, for example, is way ahead of Stork in PvZ, but I just won't accept anyone calling Stork's PvZ bad. It is, as I said, special. :D If you consider his epic 1 hour games (vs Gorush and GGplay for example) depressing, it's your loss. I love them.
Fantasy is overrated. He's really good, creative and most likely the second best Terran alive, but there are people who say he is better than Flash. Hence overrated. He cheesed Jaedong in PL, yeah. That was cute. But then he got thrashed in their Bo5 in OSL. Fantasy is the Neo Silver King. Unlike Stork, though, Fantasy will never get that gold. :D
They're depressing when you try to view them with the idea that he is a good player in mind. They are awesome when you watch them knowing that he doesn't know how to play the MU. There is no excuse for the game vs. GGplay.
Flash used to cheese A LOT. Look at Fantasy's records vs. Jaedong and Bisu and compare Flash's records to the same players, especially in 2009. Although I think they are about even, I don't think it's fair to say that he is only "most likely" the second best Terran, he is second best at least. He didn't cheese Jaedong in the first Outsider game, that's for sure. Also, Fantasy didn't just choke at finals like Stork does, he lost to straight up good play (to Stork, for example, whose PvT is admittedly monstrous from time to time).
Ok, let us agree that Stork's PvZ specifically is bad, but he's a terrific player overall and that his class and the skills that he has (splendid micro etc) that are common to all MU's translates into his PvZ making him at least decent at it anyway. Or something. Stork is awesome...
Ok, I'll agree that Fantasy is most definitely the second best terran (I'm a Leta fanboy, so that hurts t_t), but he's far from Flash's level. As TTT said, come back when Fantasy gets a title. I would also like to quote you:
If you are good enough to beat Jaedong and Bisu you have no excuse for losing to Hogil and Sangho.
Fantasy loses to Hogil, Saint, Hyvaa, Stats, Yoonjoong etc resulting in him going 29-21 in PL. There's no excuse for that. Really.
Stork is good, I just don't like him. Considering that he is probably the second best Protoss overall (when JangBi and Best aren't slumping, he is 3d probably) his PvZ is bad. His PvP is good. His PvT is great. His mechanics are good.
In 2009 Flash won GOM, a tournament where SKT1 wasn't even fielded. In 2008 he won Bacchus over Stork, which was impressive. Fantasy has two silvers, a 3-2 to Stork in Stork's best MU, and 3-1 (iirc) to Jaedong in his second best MU. Looking at these facts on paper, it is evident that Flash has more success than Fantasy, but that is not always a determining factor of who is the better player. Boxer vs. Yellow - their record is surprisingly even, with Yellow being one of the most dominant players at the time, but the difference in their achievements is mind-boggling. Players with similar skill levels can accomplish different things based on different situations - map, opponent, matchup, style and how it conflicts with the opponent's style... The reason why it's hard for me to say that it's clear-cut that Flash is better than Fantasy is because Flash is famous for first being the cheesiest player around, then for getting surprisingly good, then for going 14 cc every game, now for being the best turtle ever. He just doesn't seem like an intelligent player, going back and forth from one extreme to the other like a metronome, staying in each polar opposite for far too long. Does it take skill to turtle properly? Yes. Does he do other things besides that that take skill? Of course. But that is his predominant tactic as of now - not saying that it's good or bad, it's worked out well for him (except vs. a few select players like Bisu and Jaedong in the past year). Fantasy plays a harass-heavy style, and rarely seems to make strategical mistakes (his match vs. Stork being a glaring example, although I think it's 50/50 between his risky expansion and Stork's good play). You could attribute that to his being on SKT1 with Boxer and Oov, but you also have to consider that not everyone who gets taught strategy can learn it and comprehend it and know how to use it - to me, and I admit this is my opinion, he seems like an intelligent player, kind of like Savior back in the day. I also admit that recently he has been following the trend of "harass work? win. harass fail? lose," but that same concept can be said about Flash at every point in his career (replacing harass with cheese, 14cc, or turtle) except his god-mode Bacchus run.
To summarize, I would be hard-pressed to put Flash head and shoulders above fantasy. I think it's very much arguable who the better player is, despite medals or ELO or whatever.
EDIT: I was trolling when I said the whole Hogil whoever the fuck thing before, I thought that was obvious given Bisu's elimination thanks to Shine lol.
On October 18 2009 15:38 Holgerius wrote: Hyuk has no doubt upped his game and is on his way to becoming the decent Zerg that SKT desperately needs, but to call him a monster etc is wrong.
I agree, beating Stork ZvP is not that big of a deal.
Hey, Stork's PvZ is underrated. However, no, it really isn't a big deal. But not because Stork is bad. Zergs in general have a massive advantage over Protoss right now, and HBR didn't exaclty make it easier for Stork. Shine isn't bonjwa because he knocked Bisu out of OSL, is he?
If Hyuk keeps it up he might soon be one of the 10 best Zergs in progaming.
Stork has decent PvZ. He still has a 53 % win rate for the past wat 5 years? Also, i like that fact that he doesnt always go fast expo into sair/dt every single game!
On October 18 2009 23:01 TwoToneTerran wrote: Notice that Flash won both his titles and Fantasy lost both of his, when the common factor here is Jaedong. (Oh and Jaedong beat Stork while Fantasy...lost to Stork.)
Though Jaedong's kicked Flash out of 3-4 tournaments since then. It just goes to show that if you can't get a series win against Jaedong, no matter how well your overall record is, you have to get lucky to win a title. Calm and Flash pulled it off (Forgg too, I suppose). Or just some ability to take clutch wins when you aren't the favorite in individual leagues.
I'm a horrible horrible Flash fanboy but it's kind of hard to recognize Fantasy as #1 (which people have been doing for awhile, until like just this month) when he just can't seem to grasp a title. It's the same thing that happened with Stork and Bisu awhile back. Stork playing great, but Bisu had the titles and the #1 protoss slot until that fateful OSL.
I agree that winning a title without beating Jaedong would be a feat of luck in the current era, which says a lot about his dominance. But I also have to say the same thing about Bisu (maybe not in this coming season due to maps, or whatever reason he had for losing to Shine like a newb). Bisu, despite lacking an OSL title or a recent MSL win (post-Bisu vs. Jangbi double finals), is generally a major stopping block for many title hopefuls. Flash hasn't won a series against Bisu in a while, and was lucky (in my opinion) that SKT1 was not in GOM, or I doubt he would have achieved the title as easily if at all. Fantasy 3-0'd Bisu in their last series. Fantasy's appearance in finals at all proves that he is able to overcome obstacles, and like I said before his losses weren't chokes like Stork has shown in the past - they were losses to players playing at the top of their game. That is an argument against Fantasy in itself, but it also gives him credit for his play; being able to get that far and come so close. Close isn't a title, but it does mean something.
All I said is that they are close to even in my mind - I don't think I tried to argue that Fantasy was BETTER than Flash in every sense of the word, just that he wasn't as far behind Flash as others seem to suggest. I disagree about Stork and Bisu - Bisu's win over Stork in MSL + his wins over Stork before and after the OSL title made it clear at least to me that the OSL did not change who the #1 Toss was. Bisu's consequent double wins over Jangbi, who supposedly rapes Stork on a consistent basis (or raped back then) further cemented that fact.
Trolling or not, going 29-21 on PL is inexcusable if you are supposed to be the best Terran in the world. He is not as consistent as Flash, nor does he have a title (which Flash does). So, Flash is more consistent, and has a higher peak level. He's just a so much better player overall. Flash can, as you yourself said, play many different styles. Fantasy is not nearly as complete. He is, for instance, incapable of proper bio control vs Zerg.
On October 18 2009 23:36 Holgerius wrote: Trolling or not, going 29-21 on PL is inexcusable if you are supposed to be the best Terran in the world. He is not as consistent as Flash, nor does he have a title (which Flash does). So, Flash is more consistent, and has a higher peak level. He's just a so much better player overall. Flash can, as you yourself said, play many different styles. Fantasy is not nearly as complete. He is, for instance, incapable of proper bio control vs Zerg.
The only finals that Flash appeared in since Bacchus was GOM where neither Bisu nor Fantasy were present. Fantasy has appeared in 2 OSL finals. Just because KTF forced Flash to slave for their proleague results (to no success, btw) doesn't mean that we can ignore his lack of presence in the major individual leagues. It's a trade-off - Fantasy traded PL appearances for individual league performance, Flash did the opposite. Flash played different styles, with each style being specific to one time frame of his career.
On October 18 2009 23:01 TwoToneTerran wrote: Notice that Flash won both his titles and Fantasy lost both of his, when the common factor here is Jaedong. (Oh and Jaedong beat Stork while Fantasy...lost to Stork.)
Though Jaedong's kicked Flash out of 3-4 tournaments since then. It just goes to show that if you can't get a series win against Jaedong, no matter how well your overall record is, you have to get lucky to win a title. Calm and Flash pulled it off (Forgg too, I suppose). Or just some ability to take clutch wins when you aren't the favorite in individual leagues.
I'm a horrible horrible Flash fanboy but it's kind of hard to recognize Fantasy as #1 (which people have been doing for awhile, until like just this month) when he just can't seem to grasp a title. It's the same thing that happened with Stork and Bisu awhile back. Stork playing great, but Bisu had the titles and the #1 protoss slot until that fateful OSL.
I agree that winning a title without beating Jaedong would be a feat of luck in the current era, which says a lot about his dominance. But I also have to say the same thing about Bisu (maybe not in this coming season due to maps, or whatever reason he had for losing to Shine like a newb). Bisu, despite lacking an OSL title or a recent MSL win (post-Bisu vs. Jangbi double finals), is generally a major stopping block for many title hopefuls. Flash hasn't won a series against Bisu in a while, and was lucky (in my opinion) that SKT1 was not in GOM, or I doubt he would have achieved the title as easily if at all. Fantasy 3-0'd Bisu in their last series. Fantasy's appearance in finals at all proves that he is able to overcome obstacles, and like I said before his losses weren't chokes like Stork has shown in the past - they were losses to players playing at the top of their game. That is an argument against Fantasy in itself, but it also gives him credit for his play; being able to get that far and come so close. Close isn't a title, but it does mean something.
All I said is that they are close to even in my mind - I don't think I tried to argue that Fantasy was BETTER than Flash in every sense of the word, just that he wasn't as far behind Flash as others seem to suggest. I disagree about Stork and Bisu - Bisu's win over Stork in MSL + his wins over Stork before and after the OSL title made it clear at least to me that the OSL did not change who the #1 Toss was. Bisu's consequent double wins over Jangbi, who supposedly rapes Stork on a consistent basis (or raped back then) further cemented that fact.
Well, first thing's first, Bisu 2-0'd Fantasy last MSL. :>
As far as Bisu vs Stork, this is all conjecture but I kind of put that up to Stork being a choke artist. When Stork actually plays on top of his game, even when Bisu is playing just as good as ever, Stork can and will take him down toe to toe (with them splitting otherwise, Bisu is better in PvZ and Stork is better in PvT). I thought Stork's OSL title and complete dismemberment of SKT sent a message that Stork, when he's truly playing to his best, is the #1 protoss in 2/3 matches, and with a title under his belt for that season, he was the #1 at the time. That quickly changed, obviously, and Bisu has now claimed PvP supremacy, PvT excellence, and while his PvZ is slipping, That's still 2/3 to 3/3 better matches nowadays.
Back to the Terrans, I just really miss 2008 Flash. That guy was the best player who ever played the damn game and it's a shame that he's been struggling since GSI/Bacchus 08. (well struggling in a relative since, he's qualified for every tournament everytime and usually makes it to quaterfinals or so, but anything besides a finals appearance seems beneath his talent). Fantasy's still in that proving stage, in my mind, atleast.
Oh also when you were talking about Flash's OSL run, let's not forget how it went down. He beat Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork, the undoubted 3 best players in the world, and went 8-2 against them, beating Bisu and Stork on Katrina no less. Flash had the on paper most difficult OSL run in history (Savior still wins in actuality of course), and didn't just win, but win so easily that most people thought it was boring how good he was (with exception to a couple of the games vs Bisu). Fantasy has had similar chances in tournaments. He's had to face Jaedong twice, who he's lost to (Flash, in series, is 2-2 with Jaedong, winning both Bo3s and losing both Bo5s, which says something about their comparative talent, I think), but he's only had to play Bo5s so I'll give him the credit and say that, vs Jaedong, him and Flash are interchangeably as good (depending on which sick build Fantasy has planned). Vs Bisu, Fantasy is far better, Having won 3-0 and lost 2-0, whereas Flash won 3-1 and has lost 2-1 recently, and 3-1 in GOM season 2.
That'd leave Stork, who Flash had a poor history leading up to his triumphant stomping in Bacchus, clean off a close game in GSI. Flash's ability to jump 20 tiers in a week is pretty impressive. I'd like to see anyone in the *world* beat Stork 3 times in a row on Katrina who isn't named Flash. Fantasy, on the other hand, Lost 3-2 and 2-0, a reversal of how well Flash did.
Against top players, on any given day, I'd call them equal given their histories, Fantasy obviously coming up strong in the past 2 or 3 seasons. But I'm fairly content with that because while it may have been a year ago, Flash's best games are better than anyone in any matchup, with possible exception to Jaedong and maaaaaaaaaybe Bisu. That's what I really think cuts those three from the rest. Despite the fact that Stork will win an OSL or Calm will kick him out of an MSL, we all know that Bisu and Jaedong top their race's charts, and for good reason.
On October 18 2009 23:36 Holgerius wrote: Trolling or not, going 29-21 on PL is inexcusable if you are supposed to be the best Terran in the world. He is not as consistent as Flash, nor does he have a title (which Flash does). So, Flash is more consistent, and has a higher peak level. He's just a so much better player overall. Flash can, as you yourself said, play many different styles. Fantasy is not nearly as complete. He is, for instance, incapable of proper bio control vs Zerg.
The only finals that Flash appeared in since Bacchus was GOM where neither Bisu nor Fantasy were present. Fantasy has appeared in 2 OSL finals. Just because KTF forced Flash to slave for their proleague results (to no success, btw) doesn't mean that we can ignore his lack of presence in the major individual leagues. It's a trade-off - Fantasy traded PL appearances for individual league performance, Flash did the opposite. Flash played different styles, with each style being specific to one time frame of his career.
Well Fantasy didnt trade his presence at Proleague, he played 50 games and did only ''okay'' thus suggesting he is lacking something when playing without prepared builds.
And to person who said that didnt choke in the finals as stork what do you say about Barracks-Factory spawn everything outside my base wall.
On October 18 2009 23:01 TwoToneTerran wrote: Notice that Flash won both his titles and Fantasy lost both of his, when the common factor here is Jaedong. (Oh and Jaedong beat Stork while Fantasy...lost to Stork.)
Though Jaedong's kicked Flash out of 3-4 tournaments since then. It just goes to show that if you can't get a series win against Jaedong, no matter how well your overall record is, you have to get lucky to win a title. Calm and Flash pulled it off (Forgg too, I suppose). Or just some ability to take clutch wins when you aren't the favorite in individual leagues.
I'm a horrible horrible Flash fanboy but it's kind of hard to recognize Fantasy as #1 (which people have been doing for awhile, until like just this month) when he just can't seem to grasp a title. It's the same thing that happened with Stork and Bisu awhile back. Stork playing great, but Bisu had the titles and the #1 protoss slot until that fateful OSL.
I agree that winning a title without beating Jaedong would be a feat of luck in the current era, which says a lot about his dominance. But I also have to say the same thing about Bisu (maybe not in this coming season due to maps, or whatever reason he had for losing to Shine like a newb). Bisu, despite lacking an OSL title or a recent MSL win (post-Bisu vs. Jangbi double finals), is generally a major stopping block for many title hopefuls. Flash hasn't won a series against Bisu in a while, and was lucky (in my opinion) that SKT1 was not in GOM, or I doubt he would have achieved the title as easily if at all. Fantasy 3-0'd Bisu in their last series. Fantasy's appearance in finals at all proves that he is able to overcome obstacles, and like I said before his losses weren't chokes like Stork has shown in the past - they were losses to players playing at the top of their game. That is an argument against Fantasy in itself, but it also gives him credit for his play; being able to get that far and come so close. Close isn't a title, but it does mean something.
All I said is that they are close to even in my mind - I don't think I tried to argue that Fantasy was BETTER than Flash in every sense of the word, just that he wasn't as far behind Flash as others seem to suggest. I disagree about Stork and Bisu - Bisu's win over Stork in MSL + his wins over Stork before and after the OSL title made it clear at least to me that the OSL did not change who the #1 Toss was. Bisu's consequent double wins over Jangbi, who supposedly rapes Stork on a consistent basis (or raped back then) further cemented that fact.
Well, first thing's first, Bisu 2-0'd Fantasy last MSL. :>
As far as Bisu vs Stork, this is all conjecture but I kind of put that up to Stork being a choke artist. When Stork actually plays on top of his game, even when Bisu is playing just as good as ever, Stork can and will take him down toe to toe (with them splitting otherwise, Bisu is better in PvZ and Stork is better in PvT). I thought Stork's OSL title and complete dismemberment of SKT sent a message that Stork, when he's truly playing to his best, is the #1 protoss in 2/3 matches, and with a title under his belt for that season, he was the #1 at the time. That quickly changed, obviously, and Bisu has now claimed PvP supremacy, PvT excellence, and while his PvZ is slipping, That's still 2/3 to 3/3 better matches nowadays.
Back to the Terrans, I just really miss 2008 Flash. That guy was the best player who ever played the damn game and it's a shame that he's been struggling since GSI/Bacchus 08. (well struggling in a relative since, he's qualified for every tournament everytime and usually makes it to quaterfinals or so, but anything besides a finals appearance seems beneath his talent). Fantasy's still in that proving stage, in my mind, atleast.
Oh also when you were talking about Flash's OSL run, let's not forget how it went down. He beat Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork, the undoubted 3 best players in the world, and went 8-2 against them, beating Bisu and Stork on Katrina no less. Flash had the on paper most difficult OSL run in history (Savior still wins in actuality of course), and didn't just win, but win so easily that most people thought it was boring how good he was (with exception to a couple of the games vs Bisu). Fantasy has had similar chances in tournaments. He's had to face Jaedong twice, who he's lost to (Flash, in series, is 2-2 with Jaedong, winning both Bo3s and losing both Bo5s, which says something about their comparative talent, I think), but he's only had to play Bo5s so I'll give him the credit and say that, vs Jaedong, him and Flash are interchangeably as good (depending on which sick build Fantasy has planned). Vs Bisu, Fantasy is far better, Having won 3-0 and lost 2-0, whereas Flash won 3-1 and has lost 2-1 recently, and 3-1 in GOM season 2.
That'd leave Stork, who Flash had a poor history leading up to his triumphant stomping in Bacchus, clean off a close game in GSI. Flash's ability to jump 20 tiers in a week is pretty impressive. I'd like to see anyone in the *world* beat Stork 3 times in a row on Katrina who isn't named Flash. Fantasy, on the other hand, Lost 3-2 and 2-0, a reversal of how well Flash did.
Against top players, on any given day, I'd call them equal given their histories, Fantasy obviously coming up strong in the past 2 or 3 seasons. But I'm fairly content with that because while it may have been a year ago, Flash's best games are better than anyone in any matchup, with possible exception to Jaedong and maaaaaaaaaybe Bisu. That's what I really think cuts those three from the rest. Despite the fact that Stork will win an OSL or Calm will kick him out of an MSL, we all know that Bisu and Jaedong top their race's charts, and for good reason.
Great post. I agree with almost everything you said - the problem lies in that my argument was geared towards who is the best Terran right now. I don't deny that Flash's Bacchus OSL run was incredible - I said it was godlike. However, right now, I don't know who I'd say is more like to win vs. Jaedong or vs. Bisu, because I think it's pretty damn close. That's pretty much what you said, I think (:
Thanks for fixing that Bisu vs. Fantasy stat, I tend to forget things sometimes. Anyway, I think that Stork was the first to ride the P-favored map pool, with Bisu and Jangbi following soon after. That's why he was given his opportunity to shine (as well as the latter two). Right now, I'd say Bisu's PvP is better than Stork's, PvZ better than Stork's, and PvT worse than Stork's. By what margin is subjective. In my opinion, his PvP is not too far above but is still more advanced, PvZ is decently above but like you said, slumping (whether due to maps or ZvP trends or personal skill loss), and PvT is worse but not by as much as his PvZ is better. Like I said, it's subjective, so I don't think there is any point in arguing it at the moment - we'll see more when the new season comes hopefully (:
On October 18 2009 23:36 Holgerius wrote: Trolling or not, going 29-21 on PL is inexcusable if you are supposed to be the best Terran in the world. He is not as consistent as Flash, nor does he have a title (which Flash does). So, Flash is more consistent, and has a higher peak level. He's just a so much better player overall. Flash can, as you yourself said, play many different styles. Fantasy is not nearly as complete. He is, for instance, incapable of proper bio control vs Zerg.
The only finals that Flash appeared in since Bacchus was GOM where neither Bisu nor Fantasy were present. Fantasy has appeared in 2 OSL finals. Just because KTF forced Flash to slave for their proleague results (to no success, btw) doesn't mean that we can ignore his lack of presence in the major individual leagues. It's a trade-off - Fantasy traded PL appearances for individual league performance, Flash did the opposite. Flash played different styles, with each style being specific to one time frame of his career.
Well Fantasy didnt trade his presence at Proleague, he played 50 games and did only ''okay'' thus suggesting he is lacking something when playing without prepared builds.
And to person who said that didnt choke in the finals as stork what do you say about Barracks-Factory spawn everything outside my base wall.
Okay, minor mistake on my part - traded PERFORMANCE in PL for individual SLs. Prepared builds are a HUGE aspect of this game, and being that Fantasy is a strategy-intensive player, it makes perfect sense for his strength to be in that field. That's what makes his SL runs deadly.
No, there really is no excuse for ending up with such a mediocre PL record as Fantasy did if he's supposed to be the best terran player. He played a lot of games and lost to a lot of bad players. I fail to see how the No1 could have such (relatively) bad basic play. And I will absolutely never admit Fantasy as a serious candidate to being the best overall Terran player until he fixes his TvZ. Fantasy's TvZ is worse than Stork's PvZ. Seriously.
If we look at Flash's last OSL he was eliminated by losing to both the finalists (wow, I never realized that until now); he lost Bo1's against the two best ZvT'ers in the world. The lack of Flash in recent finals hurts me so much as a Flash fanboy. It is the only reason we can still even debate whether he is the best player ever or not. Because he sure as hell has the raw skill and talent. That is why I truly hope Flash goes all the way again this season.
Anyways, Flash vs Fantasy head to head; 4-2 for Flash. Win.
On October 19 2009 01:08 Holgerius wrote: No, there really is no excuse for ending up with such a mediocre PL record as Fantasy did if he's supposed to be the best terran player. He played a lot of games and lost to a lot of bad players. I fail to see how the No1 could have such (relatively) bad basic play. And I will absolutely never admit Fantasy as a serious candidate to being the best overall Terran player until he fixes his TvZ. Fantasy's TvZ is worse than Stork's PvZ. Seriously.
If we look at Flash's last OSL he was eliminated by losing to both the finalists (wow, I never realized that until now); he lost Bo1's against the two best ZvT'ers in the world. The lack of Flash in recent finals hurts me so much as a Flash fanboy. It is the only reason we can still even debate whether he is the best player ever or not. Because he sure as hell has the raw skill and talent. That is why I truly hope Flash goes all the way again this season.
Anyways, Flash vs Fantasy head to head; 4-2 for Flash. Win.
Let's say I'm a player who can read the mentality of his enemies well, who predicts the way a match will unfold on a certain map, and I can prepare the perfect build and execute it cleanly. I tailor my game to the enemy I will face, and I do this every week. Let's say you're a player who has good standard play, good gut decisions, and impeccable defense to both cheese and pressure. We're both good players, but I will have more success in SLs and you will have more in PLs. The best chess players of all time might not be as adept at speed chess as the best of that field, and vice versa. I don't know how many times I have to tell you, I am not arguing that he is the definite best Terran - I am saying that he is close, if not even with Flash. Flash had a great PL record, and what did he have to show for it? His team didn't win, he got MVP tied with Jaedong (and 1 win above Bisu), and that's it. Who will remember that 2 years from now? People will remember his monstrous 2008 Bacchus run. People will remember Fantasy's close loss to Stork's first gold in the OSL.
Stork's and Fantasy's vZ are similarly terrible, both statistically and historically. However, when you consider history, Stork has 5 years or more of revolting mediocrity. He is beyond hope, in my opinion. Fantasy might still pull something out, but I don't use hope as a pro for him.
6 TvT games over years of development for both players is hardly a valuable statistic.
Fantasy knows who he is going to play against and on what map even in PL. Are you telling me he's just to lazy to practise and work out good strategies just because it's PL? It doesn't make sense.
I will not give up until you take away that ''if not even'' part. Flash is better TvZ and TvT. They are roughly equal in TvP. I want you to say ''Flash is better than Fantasy''. Do it! :D
On October 19 2009 01:31 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy knows who he is going to play against and on what map even in PL. Are you telling me he's just to lazy to practise and work out good strategies just because it's PL? It doesn't make sense.
I will not give up until you take away that ''if not even'' part. Flash is better TvZ and TvT. They are roughly equal in TvP. I want you to say ''Flash is better than Fantasy''. Do it! :D
I'm telling you that
1. it takes longer 2. he values SLs over PL, except for PL finals (where it matters). Speaking of which, despite his record, didn't they finish #1 last season anyway? Guess he must have won/lost the right games.
Flash is not significantly better than Fantasy, IF AT ALL.
You know you guys are saying oh how stork's pvz suck, while it does suck, who has a better pvz than stork besides bisu? Movie? Hes played way too less games so you can come to any conclusion yet. Kal? Maybe, but his pvz is nothing stellar either. You can say stork's pvz suck, but its one of the best pvz you're going to get so deal with it.
And jaedong's worst mu is vt. So fantasy basically lost to jaedong's worst mu in a bo5 twice. And stork is about 7 - 3 against fantasy too. 4 - 2 from stork's gold osl run, 0 - 1 from one other osl, 2 - 0 from wcg, 1 - 0 from all stars.
On October 19 2009 01:31 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy knows who he is going to play against and on what map even in PL. Are you telling me he's just to lazy to practise and work out good strategies just because it's PL? It doesn't make sense.
I will not give up until you take away that ''if not even'' part. Flash is better TvZ and TvT. They are roughly equal in TvP. I want you to say ''Flash is better than Fantasy''. Do it! :D
I'm telling you that
1. it takes longer 2. he values SLs over PL, except for PL finals (where it matters). Speaking of which, despite his record, didn't they finish #1 last season anyway? Guess he must have won/lost the right games.
Flash is not significantly better than Fantasy, IF AT ALL.
Flash has more gold in sl than fantasy does. So what if fantasy has two silver? Sure he had a pretty godly second run, but nobody gave a shit about stork who had 3 silver so who gives a shit about the seconds. Flash also has a much better pl record than fantasy. Head to head record is also 4 - 2 in favor of flash. Flash is much better than Fantasy just looking at the stats. Fantasy prepares better strategy, but thats also because theres boxer and iloveoov to help him. Flash wins with better mechanics and starsense, which is why flash is just so dominant.
Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
Well good luck with that, fantasy is already out of one of the sl. So you might have to wait a bit longer than you want to. =D
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
Well good luck with that, fantasy is already out of one of the sl. So you might have to wait a bit longer than you want to.
Hopefully he will step it up in PL and make it count in the other SLs (: Hopefully Flash continues to drop out of non-Gom SLs as well n_n! HOORAY!
well, leaving statistics and results aside and focusing on the actual play shown by both, what´s the difference between flash and fantasy?
flash got the best gamesense of all progamers, his timings are spot-on and deadly. he got the superior mechanics and is more reliable at beating mediocre opposition. he needs very long to fix flaws in his game, like e.g. the moronic "turrets are for noobs"-phase which kicked him out of both starleagues last season. he is great at both macro and cheesing, but doesnt mix them sufficiently, making him quite predictable.
fantasy got maybe the greatest strategic insight of all highclass progamers and thus is absolutely deadly in boX´s. he is very unpredictable, and imho without a doubt the best bo3 player in the world. he lacks mechanics though so in a straight up game he doesnt shine like flash does. his funky builds therefore are pretty much needed for him to win against guys like jaedong. this weakness translates into a bo5 weakness which is, to me at least, the reason why he still lacks an individual title. his vulture harass style has become quite predictable and inefficient recently.
imho flash obviously is the better player and the no. 1 terran right now. fantasy is not far behind, but tbh i dont think he got the potential to catch up to flash. and keep in mind both are still young, so i wouldnt weight achievements in the form of titles too heavily when rating these players.
a side note: u should exclude games against bisu and jangbi respectively when assessing fantasy and stork. we all know that series against teammates got their own rules and often times are dominated by mindgames rather than skill.
On October 19 2009 02:31 Black Gun wrote: well, leaving statistics and results aside and focusing on the actual play shown by both, what´s the difference between flash and fantasy?
flash got the best gamesense of all progamers, his timings are spot-on and deadly. he got the superior mechanics and is more reliable at beating mediocre opposition. he needs very long to fix flaws in his game, like e.g. the moronic "turrets are for noobs"-phase which kicked him out of both starleagues last season. he is great at both macro and cheesing, but doesnt mix them sufficiently, making him quite predictable.
fantasy got maybe the greatest strategic insight of all highclass progamers and thus is absolutely deadly in boX´s. he is very unpredictable, and imho without a doubt the best bo3 player in the world. he lacks mechanics though so in a straight up game he doesnt shine like flash does. his funky builds therefore are pretty much needed for him to win against guys like jaedong. this weakness translates into a bo5 weakness which is, to me at least, the reason why he still lacks an individual title. his vulture harass style has become quite predictable and inefficient recently.
imho flash obviously is the better player and the no. 1 terran right now. fantasy is not far behind, but tbh i dont think he got the potential to catch up to flash. and keep in mind both are still young, so i wouldnt rate achievements in the form of titles too heavily when rating these players.
a side note: u should exclude games against bisu and jangbi respectively when assessing fantasy and stork. we all know that series against teammates got their own rules and often times are dominated by mindgames rather than skill.
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D
It has always been my dream to win a discussion on the internet. I am thrilled at having my dream turned into reality. Although there were many hardships along the way, since I never thought of giving up and since I had an enjoyable time, I was able to obtain my goal. Most people thought that I would lose and even I thought that I would have to practice very hard just to make the probability for victory a 50/50 chance. I gave it my best and thankfully it was enough!
I would like to thank all my friends who supported me and helped me achieve this victory. Also a special thank you to my family whose faith in me was a huge help. And a shoutout to all my fans out there; I would never be where I am now without you. I hope I will be able to continue on this path and win more discussions in the future.
On October 19 2009 02:31 Black Gun wrote: well, leaving statistics and results aside and focusing on the actual play shown by both, what´s the difference between flash and fantasy?
flash got the best gamesense of all progamers, his timings are spot-on and deadly. he got the superior mechanics and is more reliable at beating mediocre opposition. he needs very long to fix flaws in his game, like e.g. the moronic "turrets are for noobs"-phase which kicked him out of both starleagues last season. he is great at both macro and cheesing, but doesnt mix them sufficiently, making him quite predictable.
fantasy got maybe the greatest strategic insight of all highclass progamers and thus is absolutely deadly in boX´s. he is very unpredictable, and imho without a doubt the best bo3 player in the world. he lacks mechanics though so in a straight up game he doesnt shine like flash does. his funky builds therefore are pretty much needed for him to win against guys like jaedong. this weakness translates into a bo5 weakness which is, to me at least, the reason why he still lacks an individual title. his vulture harass style has become quite predictable and inefficient recently.
imho flash obviously is the better player and the no. 1 terran right now. fantasy is not far behind, but tbh i dont think he got the potential to catch up to flash. and keep in mind both are still young, so i wouldnt rate achievements in the form of titles too heavily when rating these players.
a side note: u should exclude games against bisu and jangbi respectively when assessing fantasy and stork. we all know that series against teammates got their own rules and often times are dominated by mindgames rather than skill.
Yo. Its over.
Lol yes thank you Jesus I was worried I would be tempted to enter into more shit. It was a good post and had good points, but I think this horse is glue already.
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D
It has always been my dream to win a discussion on the internet. I am thrilled at having my dream turned into reality. Although there were many hardships along the way, since I never thought of giving up and since I had an enjoyable time, I was able to obtain my goal. Most people thought that I would lose and even I thought that I would have to practice very hard just to make the probability for victory a 50/50 chance. I gave it my best and thankfully it was enough!
I would like to thank all my friends who supported me and helped me achieve this victory. Also a special thank you to my family whose faith in me was a huge help. And a shoutout to all my fans out there; I would never be where I am now without you. I hope I will be able to continue on this path and win more discussions in the future.
On October 19 2009 02:38 Holgerius wrote: I would like to thank all my friends who supported me and helped me achieve this victory. Also a special thank you to my family whose faith in me was a huge help. And a shoutout to all my fans out there; I would never be where I am now without you. I hope I will be able to continue on this path and win more discussions in the future.
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D
It has always been my dream to win a discussion on the internet. I am thrilled at having my dream turned into reality. Although there were many hardships along the way, since I never thought of giving up and since I had an enjoyable time, I was able to obtain my goal. Most people thought that I would lose and even I thought that I would have to practice very hard just to make the probability for victory a 50/50 chance. I gave it my best and thankfully it was enough!
I would like to thank all my friends who supported me and helped me achieve this victory. Also a special thank you to my family whose faith in me was a huge help. And a shoutout to all my fans out there; I would never be where I am now without you. I hope I will be able to continue on this path and win more discussions in the future.
God bless America! Peace out!
Yo... Don't have to rub it in -_-;
Sorry about that. I had such an adrenaline rush when you typed in your ''gg'' that I just couldn't help myself. I was about one post away from giving up myself. And this is much bigger than winning a fucking oscar.
Seriously though, let's pick this up where we ended it at the end of the season.
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D
It has always been my dream to win a discussion on the internet. I am thrilled at having my dream turned into reality. Although there were many hardships along the way, since I never thought of giving up and since I had an enjoyable time, I was able to obtain my goal. Most people thought that I would lose and even I thought that I would have to practice very hard just to make the probability for victory a 50/50 chance. I gave it my best and thankfully it was enough!
I would like to thank all my friends who supported me and helped me achieve this victory. Also a special thank you to my family whose faith in me was a huge help. And a shoutout to all my fans out there; I would never be where I am now without you. I hope I will be able to continue on this path and win more discussions in the future.
God bless America! Peace out!
Yo... Don't have to rub it in -_-;
Sorry about that. I had such an adrenaline rush when you typed in your ''gg'' that I just couldn't help myself. I was about one post away from giving up myself. And this is much bigger than winning a fucking oscar.
Seriously though, let's pick this up where we ended it at the end of the season.
Not to burst your bubble, but despite there being clear-cut facts on both sides of the argument, I think this was a very subjective argument in general and thus the person who is most stubborn would be the one who "wins." It's not that you convinced me to 100% accept Flash's superiority, it's more like you presented enough good points for me to see that further argument is futile. Adrenaline rush? I wish I had that feeling lol, welcome to the internet.
On October 19 2009 03:09 Holgerius wrote: I really, really, really do hope that you didn't take my last two posts in this thread seriously (except for the last sentence). :D
Okay good, with Swedish people you can never be too sure lol.
On October 19 2009 03:09 Holgerius wrote: I really, really, really do hope that you didn't take my last two posts in this thread seriously (except for the last sentence). :D
Okay good, with Swedish people you can never be too sure lol.
LOL, you actually thought I made a serious thank you speech after ''winning'' a discussion on the internet? XD
Anyway, pretty epic derailment of this LR thread. Time to let it rest in peace.
Looking forward to picking up the discussion later! GG!
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D
It has always been my dream to win a.....Yo Holgerius. I'm really happy for you. I'ma let you finish, but JWD had one of the best power rank of all time!!
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D
It has always been my dream to win a.....Yo Holgerius. I'm really happy for you. I'ma let you finish, but JWD had one of the best power rank of all time!!
On October 19 2009 02:18 fanatacist wrote: Okay yo I am sick of arguing, you win. Fantasy fucked up too much in PL last season. Flash has golds. Hopefully this coming season we will see more of each player's skill, and we can discuss anew then (:
YES! I WIN! :D:D:D:D:D:D
It has always been my dream to win a.....Yo Holgerius. I'm really happy for you. I'ma let you finish, but JWD had one of the best power rank of all time!!
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/mainskkhan2copy.jpg)
Hyuk < Heartbreak Ridge > 
Stork
fantasy < Tornado > ![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/presktkhan4copy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/sktkhanrescopy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/RECsktkhancopy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/sktkhanresbottom2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss98/dissuey/ROOint.jpg)
Unlike Stork, though, Fantasy will never get that gold. :D![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
