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Chill pretty much said it, but in my opinion:
PvZ (very important) my upgrade sequence attack,armor,shields:
1,0,0
2,0,0 (consider cost(attack3)=cost(shield1) but time(attack3)>>time(shield1) so get another forge
2,1,1
3,2,1
3,3,2
PvP (fairly important)
Similar to PvZ sequence, remember that one armor or shield upgrade nullify one upgrade attack (dual hits) on their respective portion of zealot's health or shields, not so much effect on goon attack but still useful.
PvT just attack upgrade is important.
Also, don't underestimate so much shield upgrades, expensive as helll but remember that shield regenerates and there is a battery shield that in late game is not that expensive.
At the point when an attack received affect health and shields the two upgrades act.
Example:
1 zealot with upgrades 3,2,2 and 1 shield point remaining receive 7 normal attack (upgraded ling) in that moment your total armor would be 5 so you only receive 2 effective damage. Every time you have at least 1 shield point this apply.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
Thanks a bunch guys, really appreciate everyone's replies.
This sounds awkward but would anyone care to become my protoss mentor?
I might have some noobish questions from time to time, and this is where you help will greatly benefit me and the TL community ( I won't be wasting peoples time on TL).
Cheers.
-Feroz
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Armor in PvT is not as useless as notable guys have put it out to me imo otherwise I agree
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On May 14 2009 02:43 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Armor in PvT is not as useless as notable guys have put it out to me imo otherwise I agree
Well, tanks do like 70-85 damage to Dragoons anyway, so it doesn't really matter if it's 85 damage or 82 damage. Vultures do 20-26 damage to Zealots, mines do like 125 damage or whatever. It doesn't really make a difference if it's 1 damage lower since Terran units do so much damage per hit anyway.
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With current zvp trends, and if youre sure your opponent is going hydras, +1 armor is slightly better than attack but make sure you upgrade attack soon after.
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While I agree for ZvP that attack is USUALLY the best thing, keep in mind that some of the older "tricks" (I remember Nal_rA doing it from time to time) +1 armor instead of attack can get a quite interesting timewindow. Z usually counters a P forge with +1 armor asap which would nullify the advantage of +1 attack.
---> If you know z will react to a forge asap with upgrades on his own +1 armor gives a decent edge in zeal vs ling battles. Imho it's a special case though, +1 attack is never wrong. It just won't be perfect all the time.
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On May 14 2009 02:59 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 02:43 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Armor in PvT is not as useless as notable guys have put it out to me imo otherwise I agree Well, tanks do like 70-85 damage to Dragoons anyway, so it doesn't really matter if it's 85 damage or 82 damage. Vultures do 20-26 damage to Zealots, mines do like 125 damage or whatever. It doesn't really make a difference if it's 1 damage lower since Terran units do so much damage per hit anyway.
iirc getting armor in pvt helps vs. the splash damage from tank blasts, and to a lesser extent mines. In any case you have to consider if forge + armor upgrade (250min/100gas) worth the 2 dragoon tradeoff, assuming you already have a forge for attack.
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+1 air attack is also useful if you are going for a sair-heavy build, or carriers.
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You pretty much always want to get attack first. Since attack gives you a greater increase in damage output than armor gives you in lessening damage received. (Since zeals/goons get +2 in attack increase for attack but only +1 in damage decreased.)
Upgrades are especially important in PvZ where a +1 zeal can 2 hit kill a 0 armor ling. The only time I might recommend going armor first is vs how Mondragon used to play ZvP where he would get an early evo and start a very early +1 armor upgrade to counter-act the protoss's +1 attack zeal rush.
After attack is done I think the common route is to go for armor next but since you will likely have duo forge by the time you have +3 attack you can get both armor and shield if you have the income.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
The thing you first upgrade is suppose to be last.
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On May 13 2009 21:58 Gunman_csz wrote:
What is the general rule of thumb for upgrades for protoss units against Zerg / Terran / Protoss?
1) Ground Attack
2) Ground Armor
3) Palsma Shield
I usually upgrade all my plasma shield first, then start upgrading attack.
Sorry to sound so noobish. I am veteran warcraft3 player, and just started starcraft1 for get in preparation for Starcraft2. I must say starcraft is billion times better then warcraft3.
PvZ get attack quick vs zerg so your Zealots can 2 hit lings
Makes a huge diffrence
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
Usually weapon because most units get +2 damage for 1 upgrade, while +1 armor/shield for each armor/shield upgrade. Numbers speak for themselves.
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Isnt it good to sometimes get +1 armor first in pvz, if zerg goes for a lot of hydras?
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Say you are playing PvZ, assume you have 2 forges. You are 0-0-0. One obviously will be getting weapons. Since in this matchup your unit composition will include mostly archons and zealots, wouldnt sheilds be better than armor? your archons are all sheilds so thats an obvious reason, but your zeals are almost half sheilds and due to regen etc about half their effective HP would be sheilds. Plus, you would have plague raping your health. PLUS, sheild upgrades makes photon cannons waaaaay better against crackling+defiler base raids
TL;DR: Why is armor so much better than sheilds?
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Armor is much cheaper, and shields take full damage from all attacks.
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On May 14 2009 11:31 koreasilver wrote:
Armor is much cheaper, and shields take full damage from all attacks.
The sheilds take full damage regardless of if you upgrade them or not. Why would that make a difference.
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On May 14 2009 11:08 Specterfac wrote:
Say you are playing PvZ, assume you have 2 forges. You are 0-0-0. One obviously will be getting weapons. Since in this matchup your unit composition will include mostly archons and zealots, wouldnt sheilds be better than armor? your archons are all sheilds so thats an obvious reason, but your zeals are almost half sheilds and due to regen etc about half their effective HP would be sheilds. Plus, you would have plague raping your health. PLUS, sheild upgrades makes photon cannons waaaaay better against crackling+defiler base raids
TL;DR: Why is armor so much better than sheilds?
There was a super long discussion about that in the past. I don't remember if it was every really resolved though.
Generally though, imo, armor is >= shield in the midgame when you will likely be getting your second forge. More zealot/goon/reaver heavy, etc than archons. After you are 2/1/0 you can go to 3/1/1 or 3/2/0 and than upgrade armor and shields at the same time. Oh and armor is way cheaper too.
Also, you should never be at 0/0/0 with 2 forges. Zealot's are your meat shields. Defiler/crack rapes cannons so bad anyway, +1 shields or not.
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On May 14 2009 11:50 Specterfac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 11:31 koreasilver wrote:
Armor is much cheaper, and shields take full damage from all attacks. The sheilds take full damage regardless of if you upgrade them or not. Why would that make a difference.
It matters because vs hydras (a super common, heavily used midgame unit) your zealots will take twice as many hits on there armor compared to their shield because of explosive damage. And heavy hydra midgame is particularly common nowadays.
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On May 14 2009 11:50 Specterfac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 11:31 koreasilver wrote:
Armor is much cheaper, and shields take full damage from all attacks. The sheilds take full damage regardless of if you upgrade them or not. Why would that make a difference.
Isnt that kinda obvious?
The more damage you take, the less important armor is.
99% of protoss units have more armor than shield as well.
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Shields can be quite good in all matchups if you are using cannons a lot. I think upgrades in PvP is a lot preference. I've seen a lot of good players get 2, sometimes even 3 very early forge in PvP and upgrade everything. If you survive the midgame, your army will be extremely strong in lategame. Also, shields are extremely good in PvP because late game is often mass archon. The one who upgrades shields usually win...
In PvT I usually do double forge (weapon and armor same time), but after this thread it made me a bit confused as to if it is necessary... Do progamers never upgrade armor in PvT? I honestly don't look well at the upgrades in VODs cause the quality is so bad. I'd like to know this.
Also, in PvZ, it can be useful upgrading armor early instead of your early +1 weapon in two scenarios - to trick the zerg into early +1 armor (not that common anymore though). Also if you suspect he will be going for early hydra lurker, I'm quite sure armor helps more since your zealots will mostly be a meatwall and your storms do the main damage.
These points are just some exceptions to the general upgrade rules written in this thread.
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EPT
