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[Q] Protoss Forge Upgrades - Page 3

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
May 14 2009 03:47 GMT
#41
On May 13 2009 22:03 Highways wrote:
I believe it is:

1 forge: attack.
2 forge: attack + armor.
3 forge: all upgrades.

yep. thats how i do it too.
InDaHouse
Profile Joined May 2008
Sweden956 Posts
May 14 2009 03:57 GMT
#42
Upgrading shields early will also make difference when you are going fast Carriers since they have so high HP. They will take more hits from Gollies.

I´ve seen many progamers do that. E.g Tester vs iloveoov at Shin Peaks Of Beakdue
Stork protoss legend
MuR)Ernu
Profile Joined September 2008
Finland768 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-14 04:54:55
May 14 2009 04:54 GMT
#43
i think shields and armor actually do make a difference even in PvT. Especially if you get them both. Sometimes vultures hit dragoons too. And the tank splash damage, and the mines to an extent.

I think that in mid-lategame TvP you should have enough money for those upgrades anyways. and you should get a forge anyways, to defend your expos from vult harass. So why not just get 3 forges right away and start upgrading like crazy.

And like someone said, shields make the world of difference in carriers PvT.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
May 14 2009 05:01 GMT
#44
Armor is somewhat important in TvP for P simply because without it vultures become pretty cost effective vs goons.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
xhuwin
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States476 Posts
May 16 2009 07:37 GMT
#45
On May 14 2009 06:20 The Raurosaur wrote:
+1 air attack is also useful if you are going for a sair-heavy build, or carriers.


Because most people have answered regarding ground weapons, I'll comment about this.
+1 air attack is very useful because 1) it's a big increase in damge for sairs (+1 from 5 to 6 is a 20% increase) and 2) it's really cheap. Works great for overlord hunting
xyn
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
May 16 2009 09:47 GMT
#46
On May 14 2009 01:43 antrax wrote:

Example:
1 zealot with upgrades 3,2,2 and 1 shield point remaining receive 7 normal attack (upgraded ling) in that moment your total armor would be 5 so you only receive 2 effective damage. Every time you have at least 1 shield point this apply.

Hm. armor bonus is not involved in the process untill the shield are off:
the above zealot will receive 5 damage before shields are off and 4 damage when shields are down
yrag89
Profile Joined July 2008
Malaysia315 Posts
May 16 2009 10:18 GMT
#47
I saw the games of jaystar where he go 3 forge vs zerg. He upgrade armor and shield first then when reach 0,1,1 a timing attack with zeals and archons. The last forge is attack upgrade. Quite effective vs hydras, but I don't think good vs lings.
secondly morrow is a korean pro who plays terran what the hell did you expect lol - charlie420247
ReCharge
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Philippines505 Posts
May 16 2009 12:04 GMT
#48
Anyway, here is my experience, I just played a PvP match, I beat 42( I watched rep and it really was 42) un upgraded goons with 12 zeals and 18 goons with +1W and +1A, I was left with 12 goons, so upgrades in PvP makes a lot of dif. I also tested it a long time ago, I beat 6 un upgraded goon with 4 +3w +3a +3s, without much micro. So upgrade is a must when you have extra cash ^^
David Kim for Bonjwa!
ExSoldier
Profile Joined April 2008
378 Posts
May 16 2009 16:53 GMT
#49
what exactly does the shield upgrade do again? does it reduce the damage the shield takes or it just makes the shield recharge quicker?
Reason
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United Kingdom2770 Posts
May 16 2009 17:00 GMT
#50
It works like armour but for shields.
Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end of speech is not ostentation, but to be understood.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
May 16 2009 17:15 GMT
#51
On May 17 2009 01:53 ExSoldier wrote:
what exactly does the shield upgrade do again? does it reduce the damage the shield takes or it just makes the shield recharge quicker?

It reduces the damage shield take (1 for every upgrade). However, the reason upgrading shields is bad, is because although it strengthens both ground and air units, it does not strengthen them as much as an armour upgrade, and it's a lot more expensive. This is because shields take full damage from all attacks, whereas health takes either normal (full) concussive (bad against large units) or explosive (bad against small units) damage. Also, most units have more hp than they do shields, which means you're subtracting more damage. Shields are good if you have an archon heavy army, but this doesn't happen until very late in a PvZ. In general, you should be relying on "well my shields recharge, so in the long run they will absorb more benefit from the upgrade" because if you're upgrading shields, chances are your units are dying in the battle before their shields ever recharge enough times to make that true.

In short, shields are more expensive and less effective.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Hiicantpk
Profile Joined March 2009
Canada72 Posts
May 17 2009 16:44 GMT
#52
On May 13 2009 21:58 Gunman_csz wrote:
What is the general rule of thumb for upgrades for protoss units against Zerg / Terran / Protoss?

1) Ground Attack
2) Ground Armor
3) Palsma Shield

I usually upgrade all my plasma shield first, then start upgrading attack.

Sorry to sound so noobish. I am veteran warcraft3 player, and just started starcraft1 for get in preparation for Starcraft2. I must say starcraft is billion times better then warcraft3.


Welcome to the forums Gunman.

I must admit i am not the best of protoss players, but here's my 2 cents.

There is no reason you should be going for shileds first.
It is possible to go attack-shields+airattack- airarmour if you are going for some kind of a scout/corsair/dragoon/archon mix (i only use this in phantom BGH but you never know), but dont take my word for it. I have not won a single game on iccup 1v1.

My advice is to normally go attack to 2, armour to 1, attack to 3 and shields to 1 and from there get armour/shields back to back.

Gl with future matches.
Defence bound and Shit like that
MiniRoman
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Canada3953 Posts
May 17 2009 21:35 GMT
#53
In PvT +1 armor is soooo good vs vulture harass. I'm pretty certain that even having +3 wont let a goon take a tank/vulture down in less than the 8/6 shots it currently takes. However, if they are upgrading you HAVE to match or else it takes MORE to kill them. 3 shots for vulture to kill probe is really a huge deal when they manage to slip in and start blasting. +Armor first PvT.
Nak Allstar.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43168 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-17 22:17:07
May 17 2009 22:09 GMT
#54
For PvZ, assuming zealots vs zerglings.

Most Protoss units already have base armour 1.
Zealots are 60 shield, 100 hp as far as I remember but I could be wrong.
With no upgrades that's 12 hits to kill the shield and 25 for the hp.
With +1 shield that's 15 to kill the shield and 25 for the hp.
With +1 armour that's 12 to kil the shield and 33 for the hp.

You want to stack the upgrades for maximum effect. You already have +1, make it +2.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mastermind
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada7096 Posts
May 17 2009 22:22 GMT
#55
shield upgrades are important for late game pvz and pvp when you have lots of archons because they are pure shield. Always get +1 attack first except in the rare circumstances mentioned earlier in the thread.
pvt - 1 forge, sometimes 2. first fgorge for attack, second for armor.
pvp - 1 or 2 forges. attack first, then armor, then shields. I like 1-2 shield ups late game for archons
pvz - 2 or 3 forges. I add 1 or 2 forges when my +1 attack is approximately done.
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
May 17 2009 22:32 GMT
#56
On May 14 2009 14:01 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Armor is somewhat important in TvP for P simply because without it vultures become pretty cost effective vs goons.


I'm just curious, why does the +1 armor make such a difference?
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43168 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-18 21:13:34
May 17 2009 22:40 GMT
#57
Vulture vs Dragoon armour.
(20+2X)/4-(1+Y)/4

X=Terran Attack Upgrade
Y=Dragoon Armour Upgrade

So if both are unupgraded then it's 4.75 a hit
A +3 Vulture is 6.25 a hit
If both are +3 it's 5.5 a hit


TheFoReveRwaR is wrong.

The only useful instance of armour vs vultures is if he ambushes a lot of probes in the small window when you have 1 armour and he still has 0 attack. And that'd pretty much need timing so you'd need to make a plan which involves his vultures hitting your probes.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
SoulMarine
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States586 Posts
May 17 2009 23:18 GMT
#58
attack. dont go for shields until late game.

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Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
May 17 2009 23:19 GMT
#59
On May 18 2009 07:40 Kwark wrote:
Vulture vs Dragoon armour.
(20+2X)/4-(1+Y)/4

X=Terran Attack Upgrade
Y=Dragoon Armour Upgrade

So if both are unupgraded then it's 4.75 a hit
A +3 Vulture is 5.25 a hit
If both are +3 it's 5.05 a hit


TheFoReveRwaR is wrong.

The only useful instance of armour vs vultures is if he ambushes a lot of probes in the small window when you have 1 armour and he still has 0 attack. And that'd pretty much need timing so you'd need to make a plan which involves his vultures hitting your probes.

Really? I tested this a while back, and I think I came to the conclusion that a +3 vulture kills a 0/0/0 goon in 21 hits, but it takes 27 with +3 armor and 30 with both unupgraded. (of course, this is one vulture vs one dragoon at a time). It's not entirely useless like shields probably are (with the exception of carriers and arbiters, due to goliath's x2 dmg).
Racenilatr
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2756 Posts
May 18 2009 00:45 GMT
#60
I get +1 weapons, +2 with first forge and put down a second, and start getting +1 armor between +2 and +3 weapons. I like generally having +3 pretty fast so my army deals alot of damage
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