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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
1) Ground Attack 2) Ground Armor 3) Palsma Shield I usually upgrade all my plasma shield first, then start upgrading attack. Sorry to sound so noobish. I am veteran warcraft3 player, and just started starcraft1 for get in preparation for Starcraft2. I must say starcraft is billion times better then warcraft3. | ||
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DragoonPK
3259 Posts
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Highways
Australia6104 Posts
1 forge: attack. 2 forge: attack + armor. 3 forge: all upgrades. | ||
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
Any other help for a beginner would be greatly appreciated. | ||
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
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Evilmonkey.
United States1628 Posts
2) Next time, remember to label the topic correctly. ( In this case, [Q]) 3) Make sure you do a thorough search through the TL database, I'm sure you could have found detailed answers to this question if you had actually looked. 4) Plasma shields should never be your first upgrade. Generally, and especially in PvZ, protoss upgrade weapons first, with ground armor being the next priority. | ||
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distant_voice
Germany2521 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7226 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
I apologize for my stupidity. 1) Posting in wrong forum section 2) Not using (Q) like stated 3) Not searching the the TL Database Will remember these tips :-) | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13241 Posts
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o3.power91
Bahrain5288 Posts
Edit: Welcome to TL btw  | ||
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AlwaysGG
Taiwan952 Posts
in protoss usually +1 atk. +2atk +3atk. ~ then armor? in T a lot of P +1 atk or dual forge +1 +1 atk/armor. pvp upgrade in mid to lategame. early game usually is goon reaver stuff like that | ||
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stet_tcl
Greece319 Posts
Its good to see people that finally see the light :p Most people almost always get +1 weapons first, then armor and if they have enough money 2nd or 3rd forge and shields. However this is not absolute, for example I've heard many people say (and I agree) that in an archon heavy PvZ, shields should come earlier, or if the Z is fast on upgrades (ie he will have carpace when you have weapons) +Armor may be best. Hope this helps a bit.. | ||
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Adeny
Norway1233 Posts
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On May 13 2009 22:15 stet_tcl wrote: Welcome Gunman Its good to see people that finally see the light :p Most people almost always get +1 weapons first, then armor and if they have enough money 2nd or 3rd forge and shields. However this is not absolute, for example I've heard many people say (and I agree) that in an archon heavy PvZ, shields should come earlier, or if the Z is fast on upgrades (ie he will have carpace when you have weapons) +Armor may be best. Hope this helps a bit.. What he said can be applied, but in very specific circumstances... At this level I suggest you to never go +1 armor first vs zerg, because 1) the carapace first 4 hatch before lair build into 36~ lings midgame is rare nowadays and 2) if you let the zerg catch up in +armor with ur attack, you will essentially give up on a big potential advantage u have throughout mid/midlate game, which is the 2 hit zealots on lings. | ||
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ultramagnetics
Poland215 Posts
Basically vs zerg going +1 attack is very important to 2-hit zerglings and once you have +3 dmg for archons you are guaranteed to 1-hit lings. However, you really have to get another forge to upgrade armor, imo, even before your +1 finishes. Zerg should always have more units then you and they all are relatively low dmg. When zerg gets its damage upgrades, they can really make a difference if you don't have armor. Pvt... get attack when you have a forge and extra/gas minerals but overall all you really need is attack and I've seen pros not upgrade at all in pvt. PvP. Upgrades are of medium importance (more import then terran), get attack over armor. | ||
Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
On May 13 2009 23:13 ultramagnetics wrote: And also ignore a lot of the advice that was given please. Some people posted senseless things like 3 forge and getting armor vs terran... Basically vs zerg going +1 attack is very important to 2-hit zerglings and once you have +3 dmg for archons you are guaranteed to 1-hit lings. However, you really have to get another forge to upgrade armor, imo, even before your +1 finishes. Zerg should always have more units then you and they all are relatively low dmg. When zerg gets its damage upgrades, they can really make a difference if you don't have armor. Pvt... get attack when you have a forge and extra/gas minerals but overall all you really need is attack and I've seen pros not upgrade at all in pvt. PvP. Upgrades are of medium importance (more import then terran), get attack over armor. Good post. Summary: PvZ (Very important) - Attack quickly, armor fairly quickly. Shields if resources available. PvP (Fairly important) - Get attack. Armor is resources available. PvT (Not important) - Get attack is resources available. | ||
jhNz
Germany2762 Posts
but attack and armor are so much more important. especially attack in early game (2-hit lings with zeals). | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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antrax
Peru191 Posts
PvZ (very important) my upgrade sequence attack,armor,shields: 1,0,0 2,0,0 (consider cost(attack3)=cost(shield1) but time(attack3)>>time(shield1) so get another forge 2,1,1 3,2,1 3,3,2 PvP (fairly important) Similar to PvZ sequence, remember that one armor or shield upgrade nullify one upgrade attack (dual hits) on their respective portion of zealot's health or shields, not so much effect on goon attack but still useful. PvT just attack upgrade is important. Also, don't underestimate so much shield upgrades, expensive as helll but remember that shield regenerates and there is a battery shield that in late game is not that expensive. At the point when an attack received affect health and shields the two upgrades act. Example: 1 zealot with upgrades 3,2,2 and 1 shield point remaining receive 7 normal attack (upgraded ling) in that moment your total armor would be 5 so you only receive 2 effective damage. Every time you have at least 1 shield point this apply. | ||
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
This sounds awkward but would anyone care to become my protoss mentor? I might have some noobish questions from time to time, and this is where you help will greatly benefit me and the TL community ( I won't be wasting peoples time on TL). Cheers. -Feroz | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On May 14 2009 02:43 Patriot.dlk wrote: Armor in PvT is not as useless as notable guys have put it out to me imo otherwise I agree Well, tanks do like 70-85 damage to Dragoons anyway, so it doesn't really matter if it's 85 damage or 82 damage. Vultures do 20-26 damage to Zealots, mines do like 125 damage or whatever. It doesn't really make a difference if it's 1 damage lower since Terran units do so much damage per hit anyway. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
---> If you know z will react to a forge asap with upgrades on his own +1 armor gives a decent edge in zeal vs ling battles. Imho it's a special case though, +1 attack is never wrong. It just won't be perfect all the time. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On May 14 2009 02:59 Shikyo wrote: Well, tanks do like 70-85 damage to Dragoons anyway, so it doesn't really matter if it's 85 damage or 82 damage. Vultures do 20-26 damage to Zealots, mines do like 125 damage or whatever. It doesn't really make a difference if it's 1 damage lower since Terran units do so much damage per hit anyway. iirc getting armor in pvt helps vs. the splash damage from tank blasts, and to a lesser extent mines. In any case you have to consider if forge + armor upgrade (250min/100gas) worth the 2 dragoon tradeoff, assuming you already have a forge for attack. | ||
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The Raurosaur
198 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
Upgrades are especially important in PvZ where a +1 zeal can 2 hit kill a 0 armor ling. The only time I might recommend going armor first is vs how Mondragon used to play ZvP where he would get an early evo and start a very early +1 armor upgrade to counter-act the protoss's +1 attack zeal rush. After attack is done I think the common route is to go for armor next but since you will likely have duo forge by the time you have +3 attack you can get both armor and shield if you have the income. | ||
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Clasic
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
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StalkerSC
Canada378 Posts
On May 13 2009 21:58 Gunman_csz wrote: What is the general rule of thumb for upgrades for protoss units against Zerg / Terran / Protoss? 1) Ground Attack 2) Ground Armor 3) Palsma Shield I usually upgrade all my plasma shield first, then start upgrading attack. Sorry to sound so noobish. I am veteran warcraft3 player, and just started starcraft1 for get in preparation for Starcraft2. I must say starcraft is billion times better then warcraft3. PvZ get attack quick vs zerg so your Zealots can 2 hit lings Makes a huge diffrence | ||
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
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Epicfailguy
Norway893 Posts
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Specterfac
United States6 Posts
TL;DR: Why is armor so much better than sheilds? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Specterfac
United States6 Posts
On May 14 2009 11:31 koreasilver wrote: Armor is much cheaper, and shields take full damage from all attacks. The sheilds take full damage regardless of if you upgrade them or not. Why would that make a difference. | ||
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Conquest101
United States1395 Posts
On May 14 2009 11:08 Specterfac wrote: Say you are playing PvZ, assume you have 2 forges. You are 0-0-0. One obviously will be getting weapons. Since in this matchup your unit composition will include mostly archons and zealots, wouldnt sheilds be better than armor? your archons are all sheilds so thats an obvious reason, but your zeals are almost half sheilds and due to regen etc about half their effective HP would be sheilds. Plus, you would have plague raping your health. PLUS, sheild upgrades makes photon cannons waaaaay better against crackling+defiler base raids TL;DR: Why is armor so much better than sheilds? There was a super long discussion about that in the past. I don't remember if it was every really resolved though. Generally though, imo, armor is >= shield in the midgame when you will likely be getting your second forge. More zealot/goon/reaver heavy, etc than archons. After you are 2/1/0 you can go to 3/1/1 or 3/2/0 and than upgrade armor and shields at the same time. Oh and armor is way cheaper too. Also, you should never be at 0/0/0 with 2 forges. Zealot's are your meat shields. Defiler/crack rapes cannons so bad anyway, +1 shields or not. | ||
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Conquest101
United States1395 Posts
On May 14 2009 11:50 Specterfac wrote: The sheilds take full damage regardless of if you upgrade them or not. Why would that make a difference. It matters because vs hydras (a super common, heavily used midgame unit) your zealots will take twice as many hits on there armor compared to their shield because of explosive damage. And heavy hydra midgame is particularly common nowadays. | ||
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Epicfailguy
Norway893 Posts
On May 14 2009 11:50 Specterfac wrote: The sheilds take full damage regardless of if you upgrade them or not. Why would that make a difference. Isnt that kinda obvious? The more damage you take, the less important armor is. 99% of protoss units have more armor than shield as well. | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
In PvT I usually do double forge (weapon and armor same time), but after this thread it made me a bit confused as to if it is necessary... Do progamers never upgrade armor in PvT? I honestly don't look well at the upgrades in VODs cause the quality is so bad. I'd like to know this. Also, in PvZ, it can be useful upgrading armor early instead of your early +1 weapon in two scenarios - to trick the zerg into early +1 armor (not that common anymore though). Also if you suspect he will be going for early hydra lurker, I'm quite sure armor helps more since your zealots will mostly be a meatwall and your storms do the main damage. These points are just some exceptions to the general upgrade rules written in this thread. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On May 13 2009 22:03 Highways wrote: I believe it is: 1 forge: attack. 2 forge: attack + armor. 3 forge: all upgrades. yep. thats how i do it too. | ||
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InDaHouse
Sweden956 Posts
I´ve seen many progamers do that. E.g Tester vs iloveoov at Shin Peaks Of Beakdue | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
I think that in mid-lategame TvP you should have enough money for those upgrades anyways. and you should get a forge anyways, to defend your expos from vult harass. So why not just get 3 forges right away and start upgrading like crazy. And like someone said, shields make the world of difference in carriers PvT. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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xhuwin
United States476 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:20 The Raurosaur wrote: +1 air attack is also useful if you are going for a sair-heavy build, or carriers. Because most people have answered regarding ground weapons, I'll comment about this. +1 air attack is very useful because 1) it's a big increase in damge for sairs (+1 from 5 to 6 is a 20% increase) and 2) it's really cheap. Works great for overlord hunting | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 14 2009 01:43 antrax wrote: Example: 1 zealot with upgrades 3,2,2 and 1 shield point remaining receive 7 normal attack (upgraded ling) in that moment your total armor would be 5 so you only receive 2 effective damage. Every time you have at least 1 shield point this apply. Hm. armor bonus is not involved in the process untill the shield are off: the above zealot will receive 5 damage before shields are off and 4 damage when shields are down | ||
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yrag89
Malaysia315 Posts
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ReCharge
Philippines505 Posts
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ExSoldier
378 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
On May 17 2009 01:53 ExSoldier wrote: what exactly does the shield upgrade do again? does it reduce the damage the shield takes or it just makes the shield recharge quicker? It reduces the damage shield take (1 for every upgrade). However, the reason upgrading shields is bad, is because although it strengthens both ground and air units, it does not strengthen them as much as an armour upgrade, and it's a lot more expensive. This is because shields take full damage from all attacks, whereas health takes either normal (full) concussive (bad against large units) or explosive (bad against small units) damage. Also, most units have more hp than they do shields, which means you're subtracting more damage. Shields are good if you have an archon heavy army, but this doesn't happen until very late in a PvZ. In general, you should be relying on "well my shields recharge, so in the long run they will absorb more benefit from the upgrade" because if you're upgrading shields, chances are your units are dying in the battle before their shields ever recharge enough times to make that true. In short, shields are more expensive and less effective. | ||
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Hiicantpk
Canada72 Posts
On May 13 2009 21:58 Gunman_csz wrote: What is the general rule of thumb for upgrades for protoss units against Zerg / Terran / Protoss? 1) Ground Attack 2) Ground Armor 3) Palsma Shield I usually upgrade all my plasma shield first, then start upgrading attack. Sorry to sound so noobish. I am veteran warcraft3 player, and just started starcraft1 for get in preparation for Starcraft2. I must say starcraft is billion times better then warcraft3. Welcome to the forums Gunman. I must admit i am not the best of protoss players, but here's my 2 cents. There is no reason you should be going for shileds first. It is possible to go attack-shields+airattack- airarmour if you are going for some kind of a scout/corsair/dragoon/archon mix (i only use this in phantom BGH but you never know), but dont take my word for it. I have not won a single game on iccup 1v1. My advice is to normally go attack to 2, armour to 1, attack to 3 and shields to 1 and from there get armour/shields back to back. Gl with future matches. | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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KwarK
United States43168 Posts
Most Protoss units already have base armour 1. Zealots are 60 shield, 100 hp as far as I remember but I could be wrong. With no upgrades that's 12 hits to kill the shield and 25 for the hp. With +1 shield that's 15 to kill the shield and 25 for the hp. With +1 armour that's 12 to kil the shield and 33 for the hp. You want to stack the upgrades for maximum effect. You already have +1, make it +2. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
pvt - 1 forge, sometimes 2. first fgorge for attack, second for armor. pvp - 1 or 2 forges. attack first, then armor, then shields. I like 1-2 shield ups late game for archons pvz - 2 or 3 forges. I add 1 or 2 forges when my +1 attack is approximately done. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On May 14 2009 14:01 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Armor is somewhat important in TvP for P simply because without it vultures become pretty cost effective vs goons. I'm just curious, why does the +1 armor make such a difference? | ||
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KwarK
United States43168 Posts
(20+2X)/4-(1+Y)/4 X=Terran Attack Upgrade Y=Dragoon Armour Upgrade So if both are unupgraded then it's 4.75 a hit A +3 Vulture is 6.25 a hit If both are +3 it's 5.5 a hit TheFoReveRwaR is wrong. The only useful instance of armour vs vultures is if he ambushes a lot of probes in the small window when you have 1 armour and he still has 0 attack. And that'd pretty much need timing so you'd need to make a plan which involves his vultures hitting your probes. | ||
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SoulMarine
United States586 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On May 18 2009 07:40 Kwark wrote: Vulture vs Dragoon armour. (20+2X)/4-(1+Y)/4 X=Terran Attack Upgrade Y=Dragoon Armour Upgrade So if both are unupgraded then it's 4.75 a hit A +3 Vulture is 5.25 a hit If both are +3 it's 5.05 a hit TheFoReveRwaR is wrong. The only useful instance of armour vs vultures is if he ambushes a lot of probes in the small window when you have 1 armour and he still has 0 attack. And that'd pretty much need timing so you'd need to make a plan which involves his vultures hitting your probes. Really? I tested this a while back, and I think I came to the conclusion that a +3 vulture kills a 0/0/0 goon in 21 hits, but it takes 27 with +3 armor and 30 with both unupgraded. (of course, this is one vulture vs one dragoon at a time). It's not entirely useless like shields probably are (with the exception of carriers and arbiters, due to goliath's x2 dmg). | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
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Conquest101
United States1395 Posts
On May 18 2009 07:40 Kwark wrote: Vulture vs Dragoon armour. (20+2X)/4-(1+Y)/4 X=Terran Attack Upgrade Y=Dragoon Armour Upgrade So if both are unupgraded then it's 4.75 a hit A +3 Vulture is 5.25 a hit If both are +3 it's 5.05 a hit TheFoReveRwaR is wrong. The only useful instance of armour vs vultures is if he ambushes a lot of probes in the small window when you have 1 armour and he still has 0 attack. And that'd pretty much need timing so you'd need to make a plan which involves his vultures hitting your probes. Wait, I thought armor is minused out BEFORE the explosive damage is factored in. So..... [(20+2X) - (1+Y)] / 4 Which yields slightly different numbers. 4.75 6.25 5.5 Somewhat more significant a difference, though it's not HUGE. In large vulture vs goon numbers though, it'd add up pretty quickly. Also, the whole probes take 1 less hit from vulture harass argument is pretty much bunk. The window in which you might have +1 armor before he has +1 attack is either too small or entirely non-existent to make going armor before weapons worthwhile imo. | ||
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KwarK
United States43168 Posts
On May 18 2009 10:22 Conquest101 wrote: Wait, I thought armor is minused out BEFORE the explosive damage is factored in. So..... [(20+2X) - (1+Y)] / 4 Which yields slightly different numbers. 4.75 6.25 5.5 Somewhat more significant a difference, though it's not HUGE. In large vulture vs goon numbers though, it'd add up pretty quickly. Also, the whole probes take 1 less hit from vulture harass argument is pretty much bunk. The window in which you might have +1 armor before he has +1 attack is either too small or entirely non-existent to make going armor before weapons worthwhile imo. (20+2X) - (1+Y)] / 4 is the same as (20+2X)/4-(1+Y)/4 lol I just didn't feel like using brackets within brackets. The reason we have different numbers is I sucked at maths and got the numbers wrong. | ||
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