EPTGimme questions - Page 2
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Llamaz
Australia90 Posts
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Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote: My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots. I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack. against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky. try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
i swear i spend more time in single player than i do vs other people | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
It also allows me to get a proper warmup, know building placements for macromode, everything basically. nice thread by the way. | ||
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
On January 14 2009 15:44 Liquid`NonY wrote: against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky. try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are. NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong? My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)? I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 14 2009 16:31 Seraphim wrote: NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong? My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)? I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction. I'm not the expert Pvz but i think that if you are able to scout his tech then you dont need to cut probes to get sair so soon. Its the same for all matchups, if u're able to scout his tech you dont need to be extra safe... This is IF you're able to scout his tech properly, if not, do as nony sais. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On January 14 2009 16:31 Seraphim wrote: NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong? My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)? I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction. A good player with 9pool speed won't let you get a probe in whatever happens | ||
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
On January 14 2009 16:40 Zoler wrote: A good player with 9pool speed won't let you get a probe in whatever happens Perhaps. It's probably because most of the zergs I face don't expect the toss to sneak a probe out extra early. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10565 Posts
My Ping on Iccup is to bad for it.... I then just tryed my best (but can't do much) and save the mutas for rather quick guardians... But that Muta harras would be needed to stop the Terrans first M&M ball? How should i play it else? My Ping is not *really* bad... i do not really notice it until i try to do stuff like Muta or Vulture micro.. But then its a pain... | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 14 2009 16:44 Seraphim wrote: Perhaps. It's probably because most of the zergs I face don't expect the toss to sneak a probe out extra early. well i guess usually the zerg will threaten you natural first by running towards it, then if he cannot enter he will start sweeping the map with the ling to find any proxy or probe cannons or whatever, sometimes u'll be able to scout atleast if he keeps drones on gas or gathering minerals for a third hatchery, anyway this is not really my area (zerg and protoss) so i'll let day and nony answer from here on, i was just bored. Velr, watch jaedong vs fantasy. Fantasy does the most standard TvZ strat (timing blob move out at 9.00~9.30) and jaedong counters it perfectly without mutas. Map is Chupung... | ||
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WhenHellfreezes
United States81 Posts
On January 14 2009 14:13 Llamaz wrote: Topic: ZvT - 2 Hatch Lurkers (Julyzerg style into mutalisks, usually). Pro's, con's, gameplay. Yeah I would like advice on a 2 hatch lurker build. | ||
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
On January 14 2009 16:46 AnOth3rDAy wrote: well i guess usually the zerg will threaten you natural first by running towards it, then if he cannot enter he will start sweeping the map with the ling to find any proxy or probe cannons or whatever, sometimes u'll be able to scout atleast if he keeps drones on gas or gathering minerals for a third hatchery, anyway this is not really my are (zerg and protoss) so i'll let day and nony answer from here on, i was just bored. Velr, watch jaedong vs fantasy. Fantasy does the most standard TvZ strat (timing blob move out at 9.00~9.30) and jaedong counters it perfectly without mutas. Map is Chupung... Just when his lings arrive at my choke, I send my probe from no-man's land and scout the zerg. That stray ling to scout around the map will serve no useful purpose at that time. And you're right: that probe's job is scout if he's going 2 gas, or 3 hatch, etc. Your answer has some valid points, but just like you, I'd like to hear NonY's and Day's answer as well  | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
After the mutalisk harassing part, usually I have like 20 marines, some medics and 2 tanks. Vessel is in the making.. I move out, my first vessels joins to my army. And now the case... the zerg gets hive in a very very short time. The zerg has a sizeable, dangerous army, and also has a gas expo in a very far corner of the map. And now I don't have any idea where to attack. Attacking the main/natural? This is the main source of units/defilers, the zerg will flank from behind + from the front if I do this. Attacking the far expo: my units will be cut from reinforcements and probably die, and also the zerg can just counter my natural. If I wait, dark swarm will kill me. I am totally clueless where/when to be aggressive. Also drops don't seem to be effective for me, my dropship usually just dies to scourge/muta, or if I can land that 8 person infantry there is a sunken + 1 lurk defending. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 14 2009 17:13 freelander wrote: I have tvz question: where to attack (M&M, not mech) After the mutalisk harassing part, usually I have like 20 marines, some medics and 2 tanks. Vessel is in the making.. I move out, my first vessels joins to my army. And now the case... the zerg gets hive in a very very short time. The zerg has a sizeable, dangerous army, and also has a gas expo in a very far corner of the map. And now I don't have any idea where to attack. Attacking the main/natural? This is the main source of units/defilers, the zerg will flank from behind + from the front if I do this. Attacking the far expo: my units will be cut from reinforcements and probably die, and also the zerg can just counter my natural. If I wait, dark swarm will kill me. I am totally clueless where/when to be aggressive. Also drops don't seem to be effective for me, my dropship usually just dies to scourge/muta, or if I can land that 8 person infantry there is a sunken + 1 lurk defending. This is my area TvZ! You shall attack his main. The strat you're talking about is the defiler timing terran strategy. You should move out at around 9:00~10:00 depending on wether you use 3rax for the tech or 2rax for the tech. If 9:00 2 tanks for the push if 10:00 3-4 tanks. Move towards his natural and prepare for his flank. Spread units and the better player will win that fight. Be sure to bring reinforcement constantly as you are macroing from your base. I like to make a dropship right after the first vessel, load it and drop at the same time as he flank. Now either D-matrix a tank, marine, or the dropship. The gvessel will have 100 energy as the dropship passes it, if u decide to drop his main. If done properly the dropship will enter his base at the same time as he is about to flank your army. | ||
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Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 14 2009 17:34 Hypnosis wrote: TvZ after initial 3 tank 24 mm 1 vessel push (tvz standard midgame trans into lategame) when do you expand, how many dropships, when to decide SK or 2 fac? You need to keep the preassure on the zerg if he plays standard zvt defiler strat. The key is never to let him get to your base. Constant macro out of 6 rax 1 fac and 1 port. Add 1 port when you have enough cash (if he goes defiler). Just keep macroing and microing, when you get extra minerals, expand. It's as easy as that. Trust me, you will get 400 minerals at some point sooner or later if you are fighting defilers with 2port terran. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
your idea of not playing low-econ, and then spending the extra money on cannons, just doesn't add up. like you said, it'll be weak to mutas. zerg can go mutas, hydras, lurker/ling, or macro. with a fast corsair, you can see what's up and survive all-ins or you can enter the midgame against a macro zerg without being too far behind. if you cannon up a bunch to survive zerg's low-econ builds, and it turns out the zerg was macroing (the most common choice), then you have almost no chance. | ||
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TaP.Nuada
United States428 Posts
pvz when late game hits, and I switch to ultra/ling. I always get dominated when the toss hides that he's building up sair in a corner or something, then comes out with 10-12 sair and 6-8+ dt's. He instantly gets total map control and I can't seem to fight back. I've tried mass hydra, but the toss follows up his initial use of sair/dt with mass speedzeals+storm, so he's ready for me when I come out with enough hydras mixed in. I don't know, it's just really hard for me to deal with. 2. pvz Reavers. What works well against reaver combinations mid-late game. Goon/zeal/reaver/a few ht. I do pretty OK with the reaver harrassment, it's matching up to his army that I have a hard time with. I've tried with and without mixing in lurkers. Pure hydra, hydra/lurker, ling/lurker, ultra/ling. Nothing seems to do exceptionally well. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 14 2009 16:46 AnOth3rDAy wrote: well i guess usually the zerg will threaten you natural first by running towards it, then if he cannot enter he will start sweeping the map with the ling to find any proxy or probe cannons or whatever, sometimes u'll be able to scout atleast if he keeps drones on gas or gathering minerals for a third hatchery, anyway this is not really my area (zerg and protoss) so i'll let day and nony answer from here on, i was just bored. Velr, watch jaedong vs fantasy. Fantasy does the most standard TvZ strat (timing blob move out at 9.00~9.30) and jaedong counters it perfectly without mutas. Map is Chupung... I've gotta disagree with that. That was a sick game by jaedong, but so much of his success in that game has to do with how thoroughly tricked fantasy was by jaedong's fake muta tech. He hid his 3rd hatch in a very odd spot, and even saved up 9 larvae when the spire finished to sell the fake even more. JD was able to get away with so few lurkers and a very early 3rd expo for a lurker opening. Fantasy wasted money on at least 5 turrets, and more importantly had his mnm army all the way back at his choke. That would have been a very different game if fantasy was wise to the lurker opening. | ||
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