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Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Day[9]
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United States7366 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 04:29:25
January 14 2009 03:27 GMT
#1
People seemed to like my last audio rant. Since it was fairly easy to do, I'm down for doing more! Your job is to give me questions to talk about.

I'll take any questions big or small (that are pertinent to strategy of course). I'll select 1-4 or so and do a recording and slam it onto the forums when I can. cheers!

[edit]

alot of you are giving some great suggestions for topics, but i'd primarily looking for good questions motivated from problems you've encountered. For instance "I can't seem to beat 1 base tech protoss as zerg. I've tried X, Y, and Z. What should I do ?"

That said, if you don't like making "long questions" as much as I do, I'm cool w/ topics 8].
Whenever I encounter some little hitch, or some of my orbs get out of orbit, nothing pleases me so much as to make the crooked straight and crush down uneven places. www.day9.tv
Folca
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
2235 Posts
January 14 2009 03:28 GMT
#2
How do you dodge 4-pool rush?
Dea : one time when he was playing vs the comps he asked me "how do I make that flying unit that makes the other stuff invisible" and I reply "ur playing terran zomg"
UmmTheHobo
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States650 Posts
January 14 2009 03:32 GMT
#3
How do I shot web?
...
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
January 14 2009 03:33 GMT
#4
Day[9]'s iteration of how to get better?

Unorthodox rushes/play in every matchup?

Embarrassing Tasteless stories.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
Zapdos_Smithh
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2620 Posts
January 14 2009 03:33 GMT
#5
This situation happens to me a lot, I am zerg btw.

My build is fine, i get my third expo up on time, but I tend to lose it more often than I want. Either a few zealots come on and take it out, or he gets good timing and takes it out w/some marines before I get lurkers.

He somehow gets an army advantage, and economic advantage. I try to go to hive tech to get fast defilers or do an all-in w/zerglings or w/e and it rarely works.

Anyway my main question, what do you recommend a zerg does if they lose their third expo? ZvT and ZvP
alphafuzard
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1610 Posts
January 14 2009 03:38 GMT
#6
Please go over some tvt strategy
Anything would be great, but some specific points I need help with

-Strengths and weaknesses of various opening builds
-Mid game tactics
-Transitioning (Tank/wraith to tank/gol, or tankvult to tank gol)
-When to make bc's
-When to contain, where to contain
-What maps encourage what unit combinations
-How to keep map control when army sizes are fairly equal
-Upgrade timings
-Ideal drop ship counts
more weight
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
January 14 2009 03:44 GMT
#7
On January 14 2009 12:38 alphafuzard wrote:
Please go over some tvt strategy

ummmm.....
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Zapdos_Smithh
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2620 Posts
January 14 2009 03:45 GMT
#8
On January 14 2009 12:38 alphafuzard wrote:
Please go over some tvt strategy
Anything would be great, but some specific points I need help with

-Strengths and weaknesses of various opening builds
-Mid game tactics
-Transitioning (Tank/wraith to tank/gol, or tankvult to tank gol)
-When to make bc's
-When to contain, where to contain
-What maps encourage what unit combinations
-How to keep map control when army sizes are fairly equal
-Upgrade timings
-Ideal drop ship counts


day[9] plays zerg.
Agavond
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
448 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 03:53:24
January 14 2009 03:47 GMT
#9
On January 14 2009 12:38 alphafuzard wrote:
Please go over some tvt strategy
Anything would be great, but some specific points I need help with

-Strengths and weaknesses of various opening builds
-Mid game tactics
-Transitioning (Tank/wraith to tank/gol, or tankvult to tank gol)
-When to make bc's
-When to contain, where to contain
-What maps encourage what unit combinations
-How to keep map control when army sizes are fairly equal
-Upgrade timings
-Ideal drop ship counts



day can still play tvt right? Also i'm a terran player learning zerg so i'm having a difficult time adjusting to some zerg play like when should I build certain buildings? for instance when i was playing zerg I tried to go hive when someone told me not to inless you have 3 expos or more.
O.oSins Since Op Cal
alphafuzard
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1610 Posts
January 14 2009 03:49 GMT
#10
On January 14 2009 12:45 Resonance wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 12:38 alphafuzard wrote:
Please go over some tvt strategy
Anything would be great, but some specific points I need help with

-Strengths and weaknesses of various opening builds
-Mid game tactics
-Transitioning (Tank/wraith to tank/gol, or tankvult to tank gol)
-When to make bc's
-When to contain, where to contain
-What maps encourage what unit combinations
-How to keep map control when army sizes are fairly equal
-Upgrade timings
-Ideal drop ship counts


day[9] plays zerg.

I assumed any questions related to strategy included matchups other than zvt, zvp, and zvz
my bad
more weight
Day[9]
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United States7366 Posts
January 14 2009 04:03 GMT
#11
i can do anything except for TvT. that's the one match i specifically chose never to learn so i can still be easily amazed. as a result, its my favorite matchup to watch (no joke).

hahaha so funny that the FIRST question someone asks i get to be like "lol i can't answer"
Whenever I encounter some little hitch, or some of my orbs get out of orbit, nothing pleases me so much as to make the crooked straight and crush down uneven places. www.day9.tv
Day[9]
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United States7366 Posts
January 14 2009 04:04 GMT
#12
your best bet is zerg vs anything and anything vs zerg. those matchups i duper <3. TvP is pretty sweet too though
Whenever I encounter some little hitch, or some of my orbs get out of orbit, nothing pleases me so much as to make the crooked straight and crush down uneven places. www.day9.tv
Day[9]
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United States7366 Posts
January 14 2009 04:06 GMT
#13
for other matchups though, if you provide me a VOD, i can easily explain why something is good or bad. For PvP, TvT (and to a lesser extent TvP), i have trouble pulling ideas out of thin air, but i'm great at pointing out strengths/weaknesses of play as i see it
Whenever I encounter some little hitch, or some of my orbs get out of orbit, nothing pleases me so much as to make the crooked straight and crush down uneven places. www.day9.tv
CDRdude
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States5625 Posts
January 14 2009 04:10 GMT
#14
ZvZ is my worst matchup by far. How should I play it out? What builds should I start with, and how do I read the flow of the game and react to what I see? How do I know what build he's doing from my scout, and how should I react? How many mutas/scourge should I make, where should I place my sunks, what do I do if it gets to lategame? Any information would help really, I'm useless at zvz.
Force staff is the best item in the game.
candlejackisgonn
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States159 Posts
January 14 2009 04:19 GMT
#15
On January 14 2009 12:33 thunk wrote:
Day[9]'s iteration of how to get better?

Unorthodox rushes/play in every matchup?

Embarrassing Tasteless stories.

Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
January 14 2009 04:25 GMT
#16
how to react to common ZvZ BOs
and
ZvX timing windows
and
drone saturation/larva management
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
January 14 2009 04:34 GMT
#17
In TvZ, It is extremely difficult for me to get rid of their 3rd and 4th gas once they have nydus canals and defliers. I keep pounding away at them with seige tanks and reducing their numbers with irradiate, but they always seem to replace everything that is lost. Is there any way to get around this with dropship usage? I cannot get around the scourge that patrol their outskirts, and i cannot land anywhere to do damage because they have lurks and sunks posted everywhere. This always happens to me if my first push failed.
On that note, What are some ways to make the first Terran push more sucessful besides scouting, timing and keeping your vessel alive?
im deaf
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 04:41:28
January 14 2009 04:40 GMT
#18
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.
arsenic
Profile Joined January 2009
United States163 Posts
January 14 2009 04:47 GMT
#19
ZvP - game opens pretty standard with Protoss FE'ing and myself taking a 3rd gas. I open with Lair -> Den and have Hydras out to defend against Corsair harass as well as Scourge shortly after Corsairs are out. Toss then goes Zealot Speed with an Archon or two and usually try to take my 3rd gas. By this time, I have Hydras and a few Lurkers which usually stops this push. My problem is this, Lurkers are usually only enough to stall them or contain them until they get Observers at which point lots of Storm and several control groups of Zealots destroy all my units. Assuming I know he's going mass Zealot + Storm, what's the correct counter?
gk_ender
Profile Joined October 2008
United States717 Posts
January 14 2009 05:08 GMT
#20
How do you stop the moder PvZ 4 gate 2 Archon build that everyone's haveing trouble with
Taek Bang
Llamaz
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Australia90 Posts
January 14 2009 05:13 GMT
#21
Topic: ZvT - 2 Hatch Lurkers (Julyzerg style into mutalisks, usually). Pro's, con's, gameplay.
Rayzorblade
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States1172 Posts
January 14 2009 06:08 GMT
#22
How do you deal with Terran FE --> 4 rax? It seems that this build totally nullifies my muta harass while denying my 3rd and then really getting to scary M&M proportions to come break my nat (or keep me afraid of this possibility). This build seems to really delay my 3rd by a lot if not outright kill me with the sunk break.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
January 14 2009 06:44 GMT
#23
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote:
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.


against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky.

try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Day[9]
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United States7366 Posts
January 14 2009 07:20 GMT
#24
wow nony, i thought i was the only player who played in single player haha

i swear i spend more time in single player than i do vs other people
Whenever I encounter some little hitch, or some of my orbs get out of orbit, nothing pleases me so much as to make the crooked straight and crush down uneven places. www.day9.tv
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 07:30:41
January 14 2009 07:29 GMT
#25
singleplayer owns, how else am i supposed to know the exact placement of my turrets on every map and that all timings work the way i want;)
It also allows me to get a proper warmup, know building placements for macromode, everything basically.

nice thread by the way.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Seraphim
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States4467 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 07:33:11
January 14 2009 07:31 GMT
#26
On January 14 2009 15:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote:
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.


against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky.

try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are.


NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong?

My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)?

I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction.
Hermes | Bisu[Shield] Fighting~!
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 07:43:25
January 14 2009 07:37 GMT
#27
On January 14 2009 16:31 Seraphim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 15:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote:
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.


against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky.

try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are.


NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong?

My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)?

I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction.


I'm not the expert Pvz but i think that if you are able to scout his tech then you dont need to cut probes to get sair so soon. Its the same for all matchups, if u're able to scout his tech you dont need to be extra safe...

This is IF you're able to scout his tech properly, if not, do as nony sais.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
January 14 2009 07:40 GMT
#28
On January 14 2009 16:31 Seraphim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 15:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote:
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.


against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky.

try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are.


NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong?

My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)?

I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction.


A good player with 9pool speed won't let you get a probe in whatever happens
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Seraphim
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States4467 Posts
January 14 2009 07:44 GMT
#29
On January 14 2009 16:40 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 16:31 Seraphim wrote:
On January 14 2009 15:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote:
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.


against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky.

try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are.


NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong?

My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)?

I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction.


A good player with 9pool speed won't let you get a probe in whatever happens


Perhaps. It's probably because most of the zergs I face don't expect the toss to sneak a probe out extra early.
Hermes | Bisu[Shield] Fighting~!
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10697 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 07:46:29
January 14 2009 07:45 GMT
#30
How to Zerg vs Bio-Terran whiteout Muta-Harrass...


My Ping on Iccup is to bad for it.... I then just tryed my best (but can't do much) and save the mutas for rather quick guardians... But that Muta harras would be needed to stop the Terrans first M&M ball? How should i play it else?

My Ping is not *really* bad... i do not really notice it until i try to do stuff like Muta or Vulture micro.. But then its a pain...
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 08:09:45
January 14 2009 07:46 GMT
#31
On January 14 2009 16:44 Seraphim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 16:40 Zoler wrote:
On January 14 2009 16:31 Seraphim wrote:
On January 14 2009 15:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote:
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.


against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky.

try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are.


NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong?

My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)?

I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction.


A good player with 9pool speed won't let you get a probe in whatever happens


Perhaps. It's probably because most of the zergs I face don't expect the toss to sneak a probe out extra early.


well i guess usually the zerg will threaten you natural first by running towards it, then if he cannot enter he will start sweeping the map with the ling to find any proxy or probe cannons or whatever, sometimes u'll be able to scout atleast if he keeps drones on gas or gathering minerals for a third hatchery, anyway this is not really my area (zerg and protoss) so i'll let day and nony answer from here on, i was just bored.

Velr, watch jaedong vs fantasy. Fantasy does the most standard TvZ strat (timing blob move out at 9.00~9.30) and jaedong counters it perfectly without mutas. Map is Chupung...
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
WhenHellfreezes
Profile Joined November 2008
United States81 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 07:50:03
January 14 2009 07:47 GMT
#32
On January 14 2009 14:13 Llamaz wrote:
Topic: ZvT - 2 Hatch Lurkers (Julyzerg style into mutalisks, usually). Pro's, con's, gameplay.


Yeah I would like advice on a 2 hatch lurker build.
Doom!
Seraphim
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States4467 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 07:56:53
January 14 2009 07:51 GMT
#33
On January 14 2009 16:46 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 16:44 Seraphim wrote:
On January 14 2009 16:40 Zoler wrote:
On January 14 2009 16:31 Seraphim wrote:
On January 14 2009 15:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote:
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.


against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky.

try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are.


NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong?

My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)?

I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction.


A good player with 9pool speed won't let you get a probe in whatever happens


Perhaps. It's probably because most of the zergs I face don't expect the toss to sneak a probe out extra early.


well i guess usually the zerg will threaten you natural first by running towards it, then if he cannot enter he will start sweeping the map with the ling to find any proxy or probe cannons or whatever, sometimes u'll be able to scout atleast if he keeps drones on gas or gathering minerals for a third hatchery, anyway this is not really my are (zerg and protoss) so i'll let day and nony answer from here on, i was just bored.

Velr, watch jaedong vs fantasy. Fantasy does the most standard TvZ strat (timing blob move out at 9.00~9.30) and jaedong counters it perfectly without mutas. Map is Chupung...


Just when his lings arrive at my choke, I send my probe from no-man's land and scout the zerg. That stray ling to scout around the map will serve no useful purpose at that time. And you're right: that probe's job is scout if he's going 2 gas, or 3 hatch, etc. Your answer has some valid points, but just like you, I'd like to hear NonY's and Day's answer as well
Hermes | Bisu[Shield] Fighting~!
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
January 14 2009 08:13 GMT
#34
I have tvz question: where to attack (M&M, not mech)

After the mutalisk harassing part, usually I have like 20 marines, some medics and 2 tanks. Vessel is in the making.. I move out, my first vessels joins to my army. And now the case... the zerg gets hive in a very very short time. The zerg has a sizeable, dangerous army, and also has a gas expo in a very far corner of the map.
And now I don't have any idea where to attack.

Attacking the main/natural? This is the main source of units/defilers, the zerg will flank from behind + from the front if I do this.
Attacking the far expo: my units will be cut from reinforcements and probably die, and also the zerg can just counter my natural.
If I wait, dark swarm will kill me.
I am totally clueless where/when to be aggressive.
Also drops don't seem to be effective for me, my dropship usually just dies to scourge/muta, or if I can land that 8 person infantry there is a sunken + 1 lurk defending.
And all is illuminated.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 08:21:57
January 14 2009 08:19 GMT
#35
On January 14 2009 17:13 freelander wrote:
I have tvz question: where to attack (M&M, not mech)

After the mutalisk harassing part, usually I have like 20 marines, some medics and 2 tanks. Vessel is in the making.. I move out, my first vessels joins to my army. And now the case... the zerg gets hive in a very very short time. The zerg has a sizeable, dangerous army, and also has a gas expo in a very far corner of the map.
And now I don't have any idea where to attack.

Attacking the main/natural? This is the main source of units/defilers, the zerg will flank from behind + from the front if I do this.
Attacking the far expo: my units will be cut from reinforcements and probably die, and also the zerg can just counter my natural.
If I wait, dark swarm will kill me.
I am totally clueless where/when to be aggressive.
Also drops don't seem to be effective for me, my dropship usually just dies to scourge/muta, or if I can land that 8 person infantry there is a sunken + 1 lurk defending.


This is my area TvZ! You shall attack his main.

The strat you're talking about is the defiler timing terran strategy. You should move out at around 9:00~10:00 depending on wether you use 3rax for the tech or 2rax for the tech. If 9:00 2 tanks for the push if 10:00 3-4 tanks.

Move towards his natural and prepare for his flank. Spread units and the better player will win that fight. Be sure to bring reinforcement constantly as you are macroing from your base. I like to make a dropship right after the first vessel, load it and drop at the same time as he flank. Now either D-matrix a tank, marine, or the dropship. The gvessel will have 100 energy as the dropship passes it, if u decide to drop his main.

If done properly the dropship will enter his base at the same time as he is about to flank your army.


According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Hypnosis
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States2061 Posts
January 14 2009 08:34 GMT
#36
TvZ after initial 3 tank 24 mm 1 vessel push (tvz standard midgame trans into lategame) when do you expand, how many dropships, when to decide SK or 2 fac?
Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 08:45:16
January 14 2009 08:44 GMT
#37
On January 14 2009 17:34 Hypnosis wrote:
TvZ after initial 3 tank 24 mm 1 vessel push (tvz standard midgame trans into lategame) when do you expand, how many dropships, when to decide SK or 2 fac?


You need to keep the preassure on the zerg if he plays standard zvt defiler strat. The key is never to let him get to your base.
Constant macro out of 6 rax 1 fac and 1 port. Add 1 port when you have enough cash (if he goes defiler).
Just keep macroing and microing, when you get extra minerals, expand. It's as easy as that. Trust me, you will get 400 minerals at some point sooner or later if you are fighting defilers with 2port terran.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
January 14 2009 09:04 GMT
#38
using a hidden 2nd probe to scout can work but it's not guaranteed. if the zerg player leaves only 1 ling outside your base, and the rest outside of his base, then you have no chance of scouting. it's true you can have a pretty good success rate with the 2nd probe just because it's relatively rare and zergs don't expect it. it can be something good to try, but it's not something that can be relied on.

your idea of not playing low-econ, and then spending the extra money on cannons, just doesn't add up. like you said, it'll be weak to mutas. zerg can go mutas, hydras, lurker/ling, or macro. with a fast corsair, you can see what's up and survive all-ins or you can enter the midgame against a macro zerg without being too far behind. if you cannon up a bunch to survive zerg's low-econ builds, and it turns out the zerg was macroing (the most common choice), then you have almost no chance.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
TaP.Nuada
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States428 Posts
January 14 2009 09:45 GMT
#39
1.
pvz when late game hits, and I switch to ultra/ling. I always get dominated when the toss hides that he's building up sair in a corner or something, then comes out with 10-12 sair and 6-8+ dt's. He instantly gets total map control and I can't seem to fight back.

I've tried mass hydra, but the toss follows up his initial use of sair/dt with mass speedzeals+storm, so he's ready for me when I come out with enough hydras mixed in. I don't know, it's just really hard for me to deal with.

2.
pvz Reavers. What works well against reaver combinations mid-late game. Goon/zeal/reaver/a few ht.

I do pretty OK with the reaver harrassment, it's matching up to his army that I have a hard time with.

I've tried with and without mixing in lurkers. Pure hydra, hydra/lurker, ling/lurker, ultra/ling. Nothing seems to do exceptionally well.

http://binarybeast.com/ Free Tournament Hosting!
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
January 14 2009 11:00 GMT
#40
On January 14 2009 16:46 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 16:44 Seraphim wrote:
On January 14 2009 16:40 Zoler wrote:
On January 14 2009 16:31 Seraphim wrote:
On January 14 2009 15:44 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On January 14 2009 13:40 Jonoman92 wrote:
My PvZ is probably my best matchup but my biggest problem is vs. 9 pool speed/overpool speed where they deny scouting completely despite my best efforts to use the zeal to engage the lings while I send 2 probes out in different direction etc. Then when my sair scouts them I see whats up but by that time although my archives is started storm is still a long ways off and although I throw up some cannons they can already be at my choke ready to rip down my 2-3 cannons and 3-4 zealots.

I dunno why Z doesn't do it more often. It's pretty difficult to stop especially since tosses will invest in a sair for scouting but by the time it seems they are about to attack.


against a speedling opening, you have to play low econ until your sair gets out. rush to that sair. gateway, core, stargate, corsair all should be built as fast as reasonably possible against a zerg with speedlings denying your scouting. if you play greedy by making a lot of probes from both nexuses and taking your time with tech, then you should know that you're being very risky.

try a few diff FE builds in single player, imagining that he's gone speedling (send a few probes to block up your choke at the right timing, etc) and see the different times at which you can get a corsair out, depending on how greedy you are.


NonY, I know you are a much better player than me, but could you tell me why my method of dealing with speedlings is wrong?

My strategy contrasts strongly with yours, but it seems to work fine for me. When I scout that my opponent is going for the 9pool speedling strategy, I take a probe off my min line (not my original scout) and move it somewhere random on the map. When his lings are at my choke, I send that stray probe to his base and scout even more. Meanwhile, I constantly produce probes, making my economy stronger than the zerg's. If I simply cannot scout him, I make 1-2 extra cannons, as well as a few extra zealots to guard my nat. Though I'll be wasting money by making those cannons if he doesn't rush, shouldn't I still be a little ahead since he'll be sacrificing his eco at the beginning, while my eco is strong in comparison (because of the constant probe production)?

I could see how this strategy could fail to a 2 hatchery muta rush, but I strongly believe that my scouting probe or my 2nd stray scouting probe can give me enough intel to make that prediction.


A good player with 9pool speed won't let you get a probe in whatever happens


Perhaps. It's probably because most of the zergs I face don't expect the toss to sneak a probe out extra early.


well i guess usually the zerg will threaten you natural first by running towards it, then if he cannot enter he will start sweeping the map with the ling to find any proxy or probe cannons or whatever, sometimes u'll be able to scout atleast if he keeps drones on gas or gathering minerals for a third hatchery, anyway this is not really my area (zerg and protoss) so i'll let day and nony answer from here on, i was just bored.

Velr, watch jaedong vs fantasy. Fantasy does the most standard TvZ strat (timing blob move out at 9.00~9.30) and jaedong counters it perfectly without mutas. Map is Chupung...

I've gotta disagree with that. That was a sick game by jaedong, but so much of his success in that game has to do with how thoroughly tricked fantasy was by jaedong's fake muta tech. He hid his 3rd hatch in a very odd spot, and even saved up 9 larvae when the spire finished to sell the fake even more.

JD was able to get away with so few lurkers and a very early 3rd expo for a lurker opening. Fantasy wasted money on at least 5 turrets, and more importantly had his mnm army all the way back at his choke. That would have been a very different game if fantasy was wise to the lurker opening.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
howdid
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada12 Posts
January 14 2009 11:17 GMT
#41
My question is about the timing of the second expansion / third base for a protoss when going up against a Terran Player

Im having difficulties about that and I often lose due to the wrong timing to get the second expansion

when ever i expand early the terran pushes and i lose
but when ever i expand late the terran takes his expansion as well and there is nothing i can do expect to expand again
but if i double expand terran pushes and toss loses...
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
January 14 2009 12:03 GMT
#42
How would you react if you did overpool speed expecting a FE and then after making 10-12lings realize the toss is going 1gate-> sair\dt -> quick expo?

When you have taken expos outside your natural in ZvT do you ever make units from the expos or stick to strictly drones?

God Hates a Coward
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
January 14 2009 12:05 GMT
#43
Damn I was going to ask about TvT...

Then talk about TvP! Everything you know people have problems with! (I have problems with TvP )
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 12:21:03
January 14 2009 12:20 GMT
#44
On January 14 2009 21:03 Oystein wrote:
How would you react if you did overpool speed expecting a FE and then after making 10-12lings realize the toss is going 1gate-> sair\dt -> quick expo?

When you have taken expos outside your natural in ZvT do you ever make units from the expos or stick to strictly drones?


um, just make the 6 lings (don't get the gas or speed) and expand and make 3rd hatch in base. Lurker/hydra/ling expand again.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Pyro]v[aniac
Profile Joined October 2008
United States147 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 12:30:54
January 14 2009 12:29 GMT
#45
can you please give some tips on how to improve mechanics for people who are short on time (ie less than 4 hours to play)
i've been playing since 2001 and my mechanics are still utterly shit.

edit: man.. there's a lot of useless threads in here... even some players asking about non-zerg help o_O...
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
January 14 2009 13:19 GMT
#46
Maybe it OT but i want to hear your thoughts on SC2, how it will affect the foreign scene and the korean scene respectively, are you willing to make that switch or not and why.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
January 14 2009 13:26 GMT
#47
On January 14 2009 21:20 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 21:03 Oystein wrote:
How would you react if you did overpool speed expecting a FE and then after making 10-12lings realize the toss is going 1gate-> sair\dt -> quick expo?

When you have taken expos outside your natural in ZvT do you ever make units from the expos or stick to strictly drones?


um, just make the 6 lings (don't get the gas or speed) and expand and make 3rd hatch in base. Lurker/hydra/ling expand again.

Did u even read the question?
God Hates a Coward
CFDragon
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States304 Posts
January 14 2009 15:27 GMT
#48
On January 14 2009 22:26 Oystein wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 21:20 CharlieMurphy wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:03 Oystein wrote:
How would you react if you did overpool speed expecting a FE and then after making 10-12lings realize the toss is going 1gate-> sair\dt -> quick expo?

When you have taken expos outside your natural in ZvT do you ever make units from the expos or stick to strictly drones?


um, just make the 6 lings (don't get the gas or speed) and expand and make 3rd hatch in base. Lurker/hydra/ling expand again.

Did u even read the question?

Well, that sounds more like a scouting problem. I'd try scouting a bit faster or something. If I don't get an overlord to scout them, I'll usually send a drone. Most of the time I've scouted what they're doing before I have 10-12 lings. Although I'm pretty paranoid about my scouting.
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
January 14 2009 17:21 GMT
#49
On January 15 2009 00:27 CFDragon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 22:26 Oystein wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:20 CharlieMurphy wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:03 Oystein wrote:
How would you react if you did overpool speed expecting a FE and then after making 10-12lings realize the toss is going 1gate-> sair\dt -> quick expo?

When you have taken expos outside your natural in ZvT do you ever make units from the expos or stick to strictly drones?


um, just make the 6 lings (don't get the gas or speed) and expand and make 3rd hatch in base. Lurker/hydra/ling expand again.

Did u even read the question?

Well, that sounds more like a scouting problem. I'd try scouting a bit faster or something. If I don't get an overlord to scout them, I'll usually send a drone. Most of the time I've scouted what they're doing before I have 10-12 lings. Although I'm pretty paranoid about my scouting.

Drone scouting with overpool speed isn't a great idea.

I'm interested in the answer to this question as well. It's the reason i stopped going overpool speed on ramped maps. I always felt like the 10ish lings with speed put me too far behind against 1gate tech and just ended up drone drilling half the time.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
gm.tOSS
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany898 Posts
January 14 2009 17:28 GMT
#50
Awesome stuff, thanks in advance!
HuK HuK HuK | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | There is death in the hane.
Vivid.Angel
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States85 Posts
January 14 2009 17:43 GMT
#51
How to defend against a 8rax bunker rush as Zerg without becoming too economically behind?

ZvT - use of Queens in current gameplay (Jaedong Style) and it's effectiveness at an amateur level?
Never cherish a friendship too much for it will eventually betray you.
Luddite
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2315 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 18:19:26
January 14 2009 18:17 GMT
#52
I'm always interested in seeing funny, cheese strats that zerg can do. I don't care if they're really "good" strategies, but they should be at least somewhat viable. Any ideas for things like this? For example: 1 hatch lurkers, burrowing lings at their expo, anything with queens.
Can't believe I'm still here playing this same game
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
January 14 2009 18:25 GMT
#53
On January 15 2009 03:17 Luddite wrote:
I'm always interested in seeing funny, cheese strats that zerg can do. I don't care if they're really "good" strategies, but they should be at least somewhat viable. Any ideas for things like this? For example: 1 hatch lurkers, burrowing lings at their expo, anything with queens.


1hatch lurk speedlings burrow lings @ his comsat^^
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Luddite
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2315 Posts
January 14 2009 18:29 GMT
#54
On January 15 2009 03:25 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2009 03:17 Luddite wrote:
I'm always interested in seeing funny, cheese strats that zerg can do. I don't care if they're really "good" strategies, but they should be at least somewhat viable. Any ideas for things like this? For example: 1 hatch lurkers, burrowing lings at their expo, anything with queens.


1hatch lurk speedlings burrow lings @ his comsat^^

lulz... that sounds fun. Do you have reps of this?
Can't believe I'm still here playing this same game
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8093 Posts
January 14 2009 18:45 GMT
#55
On January 15 2009 03:25 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2009 03:17 Luddite wrote:
I'm always interested in seeing funny, cheese strats that zerg can do. I don't care if they're really "good" strategies, but they should be at least somewhat viable. Any ideas for things like this? For example: 1 hatch lurkers, burrowing lings at their expo, anything with queens.


1hatch lurk speedlings burrow lings @ his comsat^^



I'm pretty sure a comsat will still build even if a ling in the way :\
Free Palestine
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
January 14 2009 18:46 GMT
#56
And the ling just dies? Nah, don't think that happens ^_^
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 20:49:56
January 14 2009 19:30 GMT
#57
On January 15 2009 03:45 Ideas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2009 03:25 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
On January 15 2009 03:17 Luddite wrote:
I'm always interested in seeing funny, cheese strats that zerg can do. I don't care if they're really "good" strategies, but they should be at least somewhat viable. Any ideas for things like this? For example: 1 hatch lurkers, burrowing lings at their expo, anything with queens.


1hatch lurk speedlings burrow lings @ his comsat^^



I'm pretty sure a comsat will still build even if a ling in the way :\


Try it. You can't build addons if there is an immovable object in the way, its the same with constructing buildings and landing terran buildings.

Edit: apparently you cannot stop addons from building by using burrowed units, my mistake
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6635 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 19:42:35
January 14 2009 19:41 GMT
#58
On January 15 2009 04:30 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2009 03:45 Ideas wrote:
On January 15 2009 03:25 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
On January 15 2009 03:17 Luddite wrote:
I'm always interested in seeing funny, cheese strats that zerg can do. I don't care if they're really "good" strategies, but they should be at least somewhat viable. Any ideas for things like this? For example: 1 hatch lurkers, burrowing lings at their expo, anything with queens.


1hatch lurk speedlings burrow lings @ his comsat^^



I'm pretty sure a comsat will still build even if a ling in the way :\


Try it. You can't build addons if there is an immovable object in the way, its the same with constructing buildings and landing terran buildings.

Yes you can, try it....
Edit:well you can't if there's like a building in the way, but a unit, even burrowed, will NOT stop the comsat from making
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
January 14 2009 20:07 GMT
#59
On January 15 2009 00:27 CFDragon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2009 22:26 Oystein wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:20 CharlieMurphy wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:03 Oystein wrote:
How would you react if you did overpool speed expecting a FE and then after making 10-12lings realize the toss is going 1gate-> sair\dt -> quick expo?

When you have taken expos outside your natural in ZvT do you ever make units from the expos or stick to strictly drones?


um, just make the 6 lings (don't get the gas or speed) and expand and make 3rd hatch in base. Lurker/hydra/ling expand again.

Did u even read the question?

Well, that sounds more like a scouting problem. I'd try scouting a bit faster or something. If I don't get an overlord to scout them, I'll usually send a drone. Most of the time I've scouted what they're doing before I have 10-12 lings. Although I'm pretty paranoid about my scouting.


God whats up with people??? I asked a question for a specific situation that occurs sometimes, im not asking what to do just vs 1gate. What you are saying would be like responding to someone asking how to defend 12hatch vs 8rax and you would answer 9pool. The only thing I wanted to know was Day`s thoughts on the specific subject because its a hard and interesting spot.
God Hates a Coward
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
January 14 2009 20:17 GMT
#60
On January 15 2009 04:30 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2009 03:45 Ideas wrote:
On January 15 2009 03:25 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
On January 15 2009 03:17 Luddite wrote:
I'm always interested in seeing funny, cheese strats that zerg can do. I don't care if they're really "good" strategies, but they should be at least somewhat viable. Any ideas for things like this? For example: 1 hatch lurkers, burrowing lings at their expo, anything with queens.


1hatch lurk speedlings burrow lings @ his comsat^^



I'm pretty sure a comsat will still build even if a ling in the way :\


Try it. You can't build addons if there is an immovable object in the way, its the same with constructing buildings and landing terran buildings.


Apparently you havent tried it. Burrowed units wont stop a comsat
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
January 14 2009 20:49 GMT
#61
On January 15 2009 05:17 Divinek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2009 04:30 Zoler wrote:
On January 15 2009 03:45 Ideas wrote:
On January 15 2009 03:25 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
On January 15 2009 03:17 Luddite wrote:
I'm always interested in seeing funny, cheese strats that zerg can do. I don't care if they're really "good" strategies, but they should be at least somewhat viable. Any ideas for things like this? For example: 1 hatch lurkers, burrowing lings at their expo, anything with queens.


1hatch lurk speedlings burrow lings @ his comsat^^



I'm pretty sure a comsat will still build even if a ling in the way :\


Try it. You can't build addons if there is an immovable object in the way, its the same with constructing buildings and landing terran buildings.


Apparently you havent tried it. Burrowed units wont stop a comsat


Oh, I guess I remembered wrong then. Gotta try again, brb!
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
TaG]SiG
Profile Joined October 2007
United Kingdom53 Posts
January 14 2009 20:50 GMT
#62
Some questions on training, sry if this isnt what your thread is about but i have many questions ^^
What bo's would you recommend while training?
for example in zvz, is it worth varying your bo's to gain advantages early (luck involved) or playing safe bo's and possibly playing at a disadvantage?
in various mu's what player map (size) would you recommend for training overall game play?
would you recommend playing general maps where skills can be easily transfered (python) or specific maps where certain game styles and bo's are more effective? (e.g. bluestorm with small choke and easy dropping zones).
Do you train one mu at a time or generally? (talking about improving skill not trying to stay in shape)
how effective would you say gas steal is in zvt and zvz on 2player maps?
/end questions
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
January 14 2009 20:55 GMT
#63
Thanks a lot for your reply NonY. I've been playing essentially the same against all Z BO's and now that I think about it that really doesn't make sense. I'll try this probe/natural gas delay vs 9 pool speed from now on.
Zerum
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden348 Posts
January 14 2009 21:04 GMT
#64
On January 15 2009 05:50 TaG]SiG wrote:
Some questions on training, sry if this isnt what your thread is about but i have many questions ^^
What bo's would you recommend while training?
for example in zvz, is it worth varying your bo's to gain advantages early (luck involved) or playing safe bo's and possibly playing at a disadvantage?
in various mu's what player map (size) would you recommend for training overall game play?
would you recommend playing general maps where skills can be easily transfered (python) or specific maps where certain game styles and bo's are more effective? (e.g. bluestorm with small choke and easy dropping zones).
Do you train one mu at a time or generally? (talking about improving skill not trying to stay in shape)
how effective would you say gas steal is in zvt and zvz on 2player maps?
/end questions


I think thes are some realy good questions. I would love if you did a audio on the most basic standard, safe builds for each MU(the P and T MUs to) for practis on low level of play to get macro/micro going.
Clasic
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
January 14 2009 21:22 GMT
#65
I agree, how do you stop the 4 Archon build.
No no no no its not mine!
RinoZerg
Profile Joined May 2008
Australia130 Posts
January 14 2009 21:26 GMT
#66
I'd also like to hear about the ins and outs of two hatch lurkers. Muta harass every game vs Terran MnM gets a little tiring after a while.

Not to mention, Lurkers are just cool.

I'd also like to hear your thoughts on Zerg drop play. In what matchups, with what units and at what time should a Zerg be looking to drop?
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-14 22:10:34
January 14 2009 22:06 GMT
#67
On January 15 2009 05:07 Oystein wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2009 00:27 CFDragon wrote:
On January 14 2009 22:26 Oystein wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:20 CharlieMurphy wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:03 Oystein wrote:
How would you react if you did overpool speed expecting a FE and then after making 10-12lings realize the toss is going 1gate-> sair\dt -> quick expo?

When you have taken expos outside your natural in ZvT do you ever make units from the expos or stick to strictly drones?


um, just make the 6 lings (don't get the gas or speed) and expand and make 3rd hatch in base. Lurker/hydra/ling expand again.

Did u even read the question?

Well, that sounds more like a scouting problem. I'd try scouting a bit faster or something. If I don't get an overlord to scout them, I'll usually send a drone. Most of the time I've scouted what they're doing before I have 10-12 lings. Although I'm pretty paranoid about my scouting.


God whats up with people??? I asked a question for a specific situation that occurs sometimes, im not asking what to do just vs 1gate. What you are saying would be like responding to someone asking how to defend 12hatch vs 8rax and you would answer 9pool. The only thing I wanted to know was Day`s thoughts on the specific subject because its a hard and interesting spot.



The reason why I missed the 10-12 lings part is because its just so obvious that you didn't scout. If you had scouted you wouldn't make so many lings or get the tech and therfor wouldn't have the dillema. And yes you need to drone scout especially with a pool first build.
Day or anyone else will probably say the same thing. Now in the event that you didn't scout and just continued the build anyways, you are basically way behind. You can try and drone drill or mass lings and hope to crush him when he comes out. The sair often comes first though so get at least a hydra or 2.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
foppa
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada451 Posts
January 14 2009 22:54 GMT
#68
PvZ - following up the 4 gate 2 archon build, after taking your 3rd, what is the proper time to stop pumping pure zealot and start making hts/goons?

PvZ - when 2 gating what is the # of zealots you attack with against 9 pool / overpool / overpool speed / 12 hatch / any other weird crap zerg can open?

PvZ - when reacting to overpool speed, the correct response is obviously to get quicker corsair which can be done by cutting probes. when is the proper time to cut probes? at what population do you put down your nexus/gateway/gas/core?

PvT - following a 1 gate expand, is it better to get your robotics or add 2 gates first? following that up, is it better to get your citadel before or after your 3? after you get your 3 how many gateways should you add in addition to arbiter tech?

Me v some random zerg newbie on iccup - once you cripple your opponent, is it funny or cruel to take the entire map and canon him in then go take a shower and come back 15 minutes later with 10k minerals laughing at the guy and transition into 10 stargate scout?

on a general note: why is C- so much harder then D+?
and why do 92% (and did you know 82% of all stats are made up) of zergs on iccup go for all in strategies?

<3 Plott Family
i can take you
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
January 15 2009 00:50 GMT
#69
I'd have a question.

If you scout them going for a fast gas, and thus open with the 3 hatch hydra build with fast hydra speed, but can't scout their 2 port wraith until their first wraiths kill your first overlord above their nat... how do you react? I tried to get a few spores while teching to mutas, but I didn't get nearly enough gas and even if 10 mutas > 10 wraiths, I need to have like 10 overlords with me or he will just kill them all and then kill my mutas while his units can't be seen... I just now thought of going Ensnare, but that's pretty Bizarre...
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
sprawlers
Profile Joined June 2007
Norway439 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-15 00:57:59
January 15 2009 00:56 GMT
#70
foppa:
Hopping up to a new color/letter in rank means you lose a higher amount of points per loss. this occurs from D+ to C-, C+ to B- etc... thus its harder to hold that new rank, in addition there is an immense difference between every rank, you just don't feel it amongst those worse than yourself because compared to you they all suck.

Edit: And cannonwhoring is not funny, not ever.
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
January 15 2009 02:07 GMT
#71
On January 15 2009 07:06 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2009 05:07 Oystein wrote:
On January 15 2009 00:27 CFDragon wrote:
On January 14 2009 22:26 Oystein wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:20 CharlieMurphy wrote:
On January 14 2009 21:03 Oystein wrote:
How would you react if you did overpool speed expecting a FE and then after making 10-12lings realize the toss is going 1gate-> sair\dt -> quick expo?

When you have taken expos outside your natural in ZvT do you ever make units from the expos or stick to strictly drones?


um, just make the 6 lings (don't get the gas or speed) and expand and make 3rd hatch in base. Lurker/hydra/ling expand again.

Did u even read the question?

Well, that sounds more like a scouting problem. I'd try scouting a bit faster or something. If I don't get an overlord to scout them, I'll usually send a drone. Most of the time I've scouted what they're doing before I have 10-12 lings. Although I'm pretty paranoid about my scouting.


God whats up with people??? I asked a question for a specific situation that occurs sometimes, im not asking what to do just vs 1gate. What you are saying would be like responding to someone asking how to defend 12hatch vs 8rax and you would answer 9pool. The only thing I wanted to know was Day`s thoughts on the specific subject because its a hard and interesting spot.



The reason why I missed the 10-12 lings part is because its just so obvious that you didn't scout. If you had scouted you wouldn't make so many lings or get the tech and therfor wouldn't have the dillema. And yes you need to drone scout especially with a pool first build.
Day or anyone else will probably say the same thing. Now in the event that you didn't scout and just continued the build anyways, you are basically way behind. You can try and drone drill or mass lings and hope to crush him when he comes out. The sair often comes first though so get at least a hydra or 2.

I give up....

If I wanted a trash answer as that I would have made a post on the battle.net forums.
NO you do not HAVE to scout with a drone when you do pool first, you can but it fucks up your eco so taking a chance with not scouting can easily be justified especially when sometimes you play vs someone who WILL fe 90% of the games and you take an educated guess that he will do it again and do a blind overpool speed build and get unlucky with overlord scouting, its a chance to take and I wanted answers for when you are at that given situation, how hard is this to comprehend?

Dronedrill? You realize you will have a late second hatch and way late 3rd hatch if you do this build your not breaking any ramp anytime soon before his DTs are out while he stalls with probes, that is if you are even lucky enough to find a mineral patch and drill to since by the time your overlord arrive at his base at the last place his goon just might be out.
Mass lings vs a techer?? You think a toss is gonna move out with his units before he have scouted with his sair what you are up to vs a speedling opening? I got no clue what level you play at but anyone half competent wont do that.

To repeat what I wrote in my last post : The only thing I wanted to know was Day`s thoughts on the specific subject because its a hard and interesting spot.
Because I wanted input from someone good about the subject.
God Hates a Coward
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
January 15 2009 02:39 GMT
#72
On January 14 2009 16:20 Day[9] wrote:
wow nony, i thought i was the only player who played in single player haha

i swear i spend more time in single player than i do vs other people


If you watch his second TL attack, he said he played a lot more single player than mulitiplayer b/c foreigners can't get muta out fast enough or what not.

I can't think of any good situational questions right now (especially Zv anything).
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
KP_CollectoR
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States744 Posts
January 15 2009 02:54 GMT
#73
Can you start working on the "how to craft your own build order" guide PLEASE?
English Brood War Commentaries - Please Subscribe! youtube.com/dimecollectorsc... Winner of The "LeBron" Award for Best Rookie (FPL 5)
YianKutKu
Profile Joined January 2009
United States142 Posts
January 15 2009 04:16 GMT
#74
Is there a specific build order for the fantasy build? If so can you tell me what it is? Also, can you include what to do in each situation (ex. 2 hatch muta, 3 hatch muta, 2 hatch hydra etc.) when this build is being used. Also information on when to push and when to expand would help~
hwighting!
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
January 15 2009 08:53 GMT
#75
Day explain the problems with 4 hat 3 gas lategame lurker/defiler/ling against sk terran and the zerg defensive and offensive objectives, timings if you know them and unit ratio and drone ratio for specfic goals, like 4 hat into 5 hat ultra/ling/defiler/scourge or into 5 hat lurker/ling/defiler/plague. Any non intuitive advice would be savage!


All the zergs outside of korea suck at this although alot don't admit it or realize it because they play against equally bad terran.
Lord_of_Chaos
Profile Joined June 2007
Sweden372 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-15 12:42:15
January 15 2009 12:40 GMT
#76
ZvT: How to play vs a mechanically superiour Terran? Especially Terrans going few/no tanks. And still your lurkers just melt in every situation you slam them at his army, and trying to hold a static defense is useless due to irradiate and upped rines own sunks.

Basicly, how to avoid getting in to a micro contest that you know you will lose?

Focusing on the mid game right after your lurker pops up until you get your first hive tech units of choice out.

So how to adapt your style to this if you
1. Don't know before the game his mechanics are superiour.
2. You do know before the game his mechanics are superiour.
Vex
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Ireland454 Posts
January 15 2009 12:54 GMT
#77
Hey, I'm currently B at iccup 2x2 (210+ apm), although ive beaten all the great's in previous seasons, even the A+'s
the problem + question is.. WHY DO I SUCK AT 1x1 SO MUCH!!
gimmie help plz!
my micro rocks, and my early game is great, but anything over this is horrible, as most 2x2 games are pritty standard for the zerg of the team. I wanna know tips as to how to adjust strategies in mid game, do you re-hotkey stuff? ive seen replays and shit, just my macro sucks so bad.. how do u know when its safe 2 xpo, how do u know when to drone and when to army! and what the FUC do u do vs a terran or protoss that just SITS in fukken base and masses an army like a +1 attack zeal/archon T.T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and 1 more thing, if u dont scout your enemy quick enough, how do u know what bo to use..
do u pre-meditate this?

T.T! i unhappy
"Bonjwa" is the most retarded word ever. Wtf does it even sound like.
starcraft[abg]
Profile Joined January 2009
4 Posts
January 15 2009 13:21 GMT
#78
how do you stop the Protoss bulldog

sprawlers
Profile Joined June 2007
Norway439 Posts
January 15 2009 21:21 GMT
#79
What is a good zvz build order for 4-playermaps that gives you a winning chance against a better BO, if you could explain how to play vs a counter BO if you get unlucky that would be nice as well. also how long are you supposed to play blind? Do you always send one of your first lings to scout?

I'm generally just stuck at a level where, "ok now I do that and pray he doesn't do that...." for example I do gas after OL for 6 quick mutas of 1 base and pray he doesnt 5pool or 12hatch at expo.
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
January 15 2009 23:41 GMT
#80
On January 15 2009 21:54 Vex wrote:
Hey, I'm currently B at iccup 2x2 (210+ apm), although ive beaten all the great's in previous seasons, even the A+'s
the problem + question is.. WHY DO I SUCK AT 1x1 SO MUCH!!
gimmie help plz!
my micro rocks, and my early game is great, but anything over this is horrible, as most 2x2 games are pritty standard for the zerg of the team. I wanna know tips as to how to adjust strategies in mid game, do you re-hotkey stuff? ive seen replays and shit, just my macro sucks so bad.. how do u know when its safe 2 xpo, how do u know when to drone and when to army! and what the FUC do u do vs a terran or protoss that just SITS in fukken base and masses an army like a +1 attack zeal/archon T.T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and 1 more thing, if u dont scout your enemy quick enough, how do u know what bo to use..
do u pre-meditate this?

T.T! i unhappy

you could try playing 1v1?...<_<
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
Vex
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Ireland454 Posts
January 16 2009 11:42 GMT
#81
................................
heav...
how would i know i suck at 1x1 if i didnt "try" playing it.
im c-
but i cant defeat better players, thats why i asked. thats why pritty much everyone asked.
jeez what an ignorant answer
"Bonjwa" is the most retarded word ever. Wtf does it even sound like.
sprawlers
Profile Joined June 2007
Norway439 Posts
January 16 2009 12:18 GMT
#82
Beeing B at 2v2 doesn't mean you "should" reach around B(or C) at 1v1. I have heard of B- 2v2 players not able to break out of D+. It's just two different skillsets altogether.

The problem with your question is that it makes no sense for him to answer it, as you just complain about losing at a lower level than you would like, we all do that. Unless you expect him to cover common mistakes among 2v2players trying to play 1v1 I don't see what he has to rant about.

Your post, if you formatted it better and included and a replay, would fit better in the stratergy section, as the point with this thread was to discuss stratergy instead of "why do I lose"?
Vex
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Ireland454 Posts
January 16 2009 13:30 GMT
#83
On January 15 2009 21:54 Vex wrote:
Hey, I'm currently B at iccup 2x2 (210+ apm), although ive beaten all the great's in previous seasons, even the A+'s
the problem + question is.. WHY DO I SUCK AT 1x1 SO MUCH!!
gimmie help plz!
my micro rocks, and my early game is great, but anything over this is horrible, as most 2x2 games are pritty standard for the zerg of the team. I wanna know tips as to how to adjust strategies in mid game, do you re-hotkey stuff? ive seen replays and shit, just my macro sucks so bad.. how do u know when its safe 2 xpo, how do u know when to drone and when to army! and what the FUC do u do vs a terran or protoss that just SITS in fukken base and masses an army like a +1 attack zeal/archon T.T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and 1 more thing, if u dont scout your enemy quick enough, how do u know what bo to use..
do u pre-meditate this?


T.T! i unhappy


these arent questions that can be answered huh?
kk. wrong thread i guess.
"Bonjwa" is the most retarded word ever. Wtf does it even sound like.
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9947 Posts
January 16 2009 13:45 GMT
#84
I would like to hear your thoughts on the evolution that did not happen in TvZ. When SKTerran first popped up, everyone thought it would completely replace mnm/tank/vessel TvZ as everyone's mechanics got better. Nowadays, the opposite seems true, less and less people are going for SKTerran with the resurgence of UltraLing late game TvZ as opposed to defilerlurkling. Even people renowned for their SKTerran style seem to have switched back to mnm/tank/vessel. Hell, even old 2fact tank builds have come back into play.

What do you, with a huge amount of viewed progames, think caused this? Where did it go wrong for SKTerran?
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
justiceknight
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Singapore5741 Posts
January 16 2009 13:53 GMT
#85
have a Q on PVZ

i'm zerg and always use lurkling in macro wars,so i have placed the lurkers well and have ovy speed scourges and ling,he has HTs speelots and observer.When he attack me ,what is the proper procedure i should do to win this battle?
Burre
Profile Joined September 2008
Sweden154 Posts
January 16 2009 13:56 GMT
#86
On January 16 2009 22:45 RaGe wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on the evolution that did not happen in TvZ. When SKTerran first popped up, everyone thought it would completely replace mnm/tank/vessel TvZ as everyone's mechanics got better. Nowadays, the opposite seems true, less and less people are going for SKTerran with the resurgence of UltraLing late game TvZ as opposed to defilerlurkling. Even people renowned for their SKTerran style seem to have switched back to mnm/tank/vessel. Hell, even old 2fact tank builds have come back into play.

What do you, with a huge amount of viewed progames, think caused this? Where did it go wrong for SKTerran?


I would love to hear a rant on this.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
January 16 2009 14:10 GMT
#87
On January 16 2009 06:21 Supah wrote:
What is a good zvz build order for 4-playermaps that gives you a winning chance against a better BO, if you could explain how to play vs a counter BO if you get unlucky that would be nice as well. also how long are you supposed to play blind? Do you always send one of your first lings to scout?

I'm generally just stuck at a level where, "ok now I do that and pray he doesn't do that...." for example I do gas after OL for 6 quick mutas of 1 base and pray he doesnt 5pool or 12hatch at expo.


Starcraft is not about counters. You must know how to use every build in the right way against every other build. Every build in ZvZ (almost every one) can win against all builds.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
sprawlers
Profile Joined June 2007
Norway439 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-16 15:23:43
January 16 2009 15:20 GMT
#88
If you scout eatch other somewhat early yes, you are right

The problem is that when you for instance play blind rampdefense2000 and scout him last to find out he did something like 12hatch at nat you are royally fucked. Less so if you scout him right away but you are not going to win unless he fucks up. If you did a 9/over pool into lings and he 12 pooled with gas after overlord no speed and positions aren't close enough you are also dead as he has faster gas faster second hatch and more drones. I know you can win even with an inferior BO, what I was interested in is a build that doesn't give you autolosses and still doesn't suck all that bad if you end up behind.

I know i can't do the same build every game if i was to play a BoX. Not that all top foreigneers do that either. From the gosucup for instance, dimaga did the same build 4 of his 5 games in the final against not4u, while not4u 12 hatched 4(maybe just 3) of the games. Point is, whenever they scouted eachother last they just sat there building drones and praying their opponent didn't build enough zerglings to kill them.
I don't want to gamble like that, but if I don't gamble enough I will lose to those who gambled a little bit more than me. skipping lings for drones blindly, 12hatching blindly etc. All i want is a zvz build for a 4player-map that minimizes the luck factor when you scout each other second or last.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
January 16 2009 15:29 GMT
#89
On January 16 2009 22:45 RaGe wrote:
I would like to hear your thoughts on the evolution that did not happen in TvZ. When SKTerran first popped up, everyone thought it would completely replace mnm/tank/vessel TvZ as everyone's mechanics got better. Nowadays, the opposite seems true, less and less people are going for SKTerran with the resurgence of UltraLing late game TvZ as opposed to defilerlurkling. Even people renowned for their SKTerran style seem to have switched back to mnm/tank/vessel. Hell, even old 2fact tank builds have come back into play.

What do you, with a huge amount of viewed progames, think caused this? Where did it go wrong for SKTerran?


I think because Lurker/hydra was proven to be too effective vs SKTerran.
When a zerg counters by going hydra lurker, they will be very powerful without having to micro as much as the terran. This means they can keep better macro and still fight as good as terran in the battles.

According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17726 Posts
January 16 2009 15:43 GMT
#90
Well wouldnt terrans start using sk terran again than because no zergs go hydra lurk anymore? If hydra lurk is the reason why sk got unpopular and heavy tank is the reason why hydra lurk got unpopular shouldnt we see sk back again now that hydra lurk isnt used?

Rage i still see sk used a lot. Terrans dont go full sk in the sense from the start to finish no tanks but the majority of terrans go 1 fact 1 port tank vessel than after the first push add another starport get some mines and switch to sk and get some map control. The only time i see full sk from start to end lately is when terran scouts zerg going crazy zerg/ultra rush. Are you asking why terrans stopped going full sk from the start to the end no tanks?
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
Hyperionnn
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Turkey4968 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-16 15:49:31
January 16 2009 15:45 GMT
#91
On January 15 2009 22:21 starcraft[abg] wrote:
how do you stop the Protoss bulldog



Well, you need turrets around your tanks to minimize the effect of shuttle, the zealots are key in bulldog, pull a lot of scvs to take goon fire/prevent them nearing your tanks, if you win the first fight, you will most likely win the game
Hyperionnn
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Turkey4968 Posts
January 16 2009 15:55 GMT
#92
Isn't tank heavy pushes really effective against crazy zerg (see jd vs forgg game 1 @ colloseum), i remember that even with swarm, ultras just melted with heavy tank fire (forgg had A LOT SHIT in that game) i think it looked really effective against 4 gas ultra-ling
anderoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1876 Posts
January 16 2009 16:10 GMT
#93
an embarrassing tasteless story should definitely be included as a bonus

and any kind of drone/unit balancing tips are always good
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
January 16 2009 16:47 GMT
#94
On January 17 2009 00:43 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Well wouldnt terrans start using sk terran again than because no zergs go hydra lurk anymore? If hydra lurk is the reason why sk got unpopular and heavy tank is the reason why hydra lurk got unpopular shouldnt we see sk back again now that hydra lurk isnt used?

Rage i still see sk used a lot. Terrans dont go full sk in the sense from the start to finish no tanks but the majority of terrans go 1 fact 1 port tank vessel than after the first push add another starport get some mines and switch to sk and get some map control. The only time i see full sk from start to end lately is when terran scouts zerg going crazy zerg/ultra rush. Are you asking why terrans stopped going full sk from the start to the end no tanks?


simply because hydralurk has proven to be too good of a counter for the skterran build. Thats why its not used that much anymore.

Zergs usually doesn't play hydralurk today only because terran usually don't go for a pure SK build. If they were however, the zerg would probably counter it with hydralurk, thats why terrans wont do it;)
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
ffswowsucks
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Greece2294 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-16 18:27:10
January 16 2009 18:24 GMT
#95
Someone stated he has problems with ZvZ , can you please tell us some about this MU? I usually play with a friend on Destination and would like some ideas. I though of muta then pop some devourers with em or just make 2-3 defilers and plague his muta. Other than that I also tried mass hydra with fast upgrades popping out from 5 hatch but didnt work well cause I forgot to make 4-5 lurks for his lings
Terran in particular is a notoriously strong race for a no brain skillhand bot style.
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-17 02:51:04
January 17 2009 02:45 GMT
#96
Now regarding my reply... I hadn't known you were C-
so i just told you what i thought logically- play more
all you were typing was bragging about how you're that 2x2 rank in iccup and you beat "xyz"

Anyways,

On January 16 2009 20:42 Vex wrote:
................................
heav...
how would i know i suck at 1x1 if i didnt "try" playing it.
im c-
but i cant defeat better players, thats why i asked. thats why pritty much everyone asked.
jeez what an ignorant answer

there's no real "shortcut"
i told you to try playing games... which you need to do if you're just c-
c- means you are lacking in basic things and all that can be solved... with essentially more games
it's when you get C+/B- you start fishing around for replays/analyzing
And trust me , there's a considerable skill gap between C- and C+

these arent questions that can be answered huh?
kk. wrong thread i guess.

just get more game experience...


and 1 more thing, if u dont scout your enemy quick enough, how do u know what bo to use..
do u pre-meditate this?

I would play safe... if you don't know a "safe bo" then you need to play more

Seeing a pattern here?
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
fishyjoes
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Germany644 Posts
January 17 2009 11:48 GMT
#97
Some Questions:

- When is the best time to tech to hive in ZvT?
- How do I decide what I am getting when I reach hive? Defilers, Ultras?
- When would you recommend to go for Guardians?

- When the Protoss rolls out with his huge ball I am having trouble dealing with it on maps like Python with largen open areas. What's the best way dealing with it depending on your situation?
infinite fun: http://dagobah.biz/flash/loituma.swf
Vex
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Ireland454 Posts
January 21 2009 11:25 GMT
#98
On January 17 2009 11:45 HeavOnEarth wrote:
Now regarding my reply... I hadn't known you were C-
so i just told you what i thought logically- play more
all you were typing was bragging about how you're that 2x2 rank in iccup and you beat "xyz"

Anyways,

Show nested quote +
On January 16 2009 20:42 Vex wrote:
................................
heav...
how would i know i suck at 1x1 if i didnt "try" playing it.
im c-
but i cant defeat better players, thats why i asked. thats why pritty much everyone asked.
jeez what an ignorant answer

there's no real "shortcut"
i told you to try playing games... which you need to do if you're just c-
c- means you are lacking in basic things and all that can be solved... with essentially more games
it's when you get C+/B- you start fishing around for replays/analyzing
And trust me , there's a considerable skill gap between C- and C+
Show nested quote +

these arent questions that can be answered huh?
kk. wrong thread i guess.

just get more game experience...

Show nested quote +

and 1 more thing, if u dont scout your enemy quick enough, how do u know what bo to use..
do u pre-meditate this?

I would play safe... if you don't know a "safe bo" then you need to play more

Seeing a pattern here?


was hoping to see a "what you know from 2x2 can help with xyz" but w/e
thanks for the input.
"Bonjwa" is the most retarded word ever. Wtf does it even sound like.
Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
January 21 2009 11:58 GMT
#99
You should rant about something very serious for zerg. I think it should be about the most important unit every zerg needs to know how to use. If you think I'm hinting mutalisk then WRONG ANSWER.

Talk about ZERGLINGS!
ZvZ usage
ZvT usage
ZvP usage
CHOGOLINGS? speedlings? details on upgrade - when, why
CRACKLINGS? details on upgrade - when, why, timing and such

My own question that I'm wondering is if it is ever a good idea to get a hive just for adrenal glands?
(hive upgrade + glands upgrade cost = cracklings)
Should fast cracklings ever be used?
What if you're on 2 gases which is not enough to support hive tech i.e. defilers/ultras/guards, should you still get hive just for cracklings even if you won't be getting any hive tech units.
Beyond the Game
Azrael1111
Profile Joined July 2008
United States550 Posts
January 21 2009 12:00 GMT
#100
On January 21 2009 20:25 Vex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2009 11:45 HeavOnEarth wrote:
Now regarding my reply... I hadn't known you were C-
so i just told you what i thought logically- play more
all you were typing was bragging about how you're that 2x2 rank in iccup and you beat "xyz"

Anyways,

On January 16 2009 20:42 Vex wrote:
................................
heav...
how would i know i suck at 1x1 if i didnt "try" playing it.
im c-
but i cant defeat better players, thats why i asked. thats why pritty much everyone asked.
jeez what an ignorant answer

there's no real "shortcut"
i told you to try playing games... which you need to do if you're just c-
c- means you are lacking in basic things and all that can be solved... with essentially more games
it's when you get C+/B- you start fishing around for replays/analyzing
And trust me , there's a considerable skill gap between C- and C+

these arent questions that can be answered huh?
kk. wrong thread i guess.

just get more game experience...


and 1 more thing, if u dont scout your enemy quick enough, how do u know what bo to use..
do u pre-meditate this?

I would play safe... if you don't know a "safe bo" then you need to play more

Seeing a pattern here?


was hoping to see a "what you know from 2x2 can help with xyz" but w/e
thanks for the input.


It should be noted that 2x2 is super easy to rank up in for some reason. It is really normal for someone to have a 2x2 rank a full letter grade above their 1x1.
Normal
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