EPT[Q] Optic Flare in TvP? - Page 4
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RaDiX
Finland67 Posts
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
Pros: Cheaper than optical flair + medics. Moving faster than medics. Tech neccessary in middle/late game. Scouting unit. Cons: none Sorry, edited several times because of grammar. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On November 21 2007 00:10 Chill wrote: Damn right I predict that. You heard it here first!! I'll beat you at prediction as I predict them used is specifically in ZvP and specifically to kill those annoying corsair fleets. Crazy predictions aside, flare can indeed be very effective vs reaver harass (you don't need to flare the reaver, just flare the shuttle, he HAS to see where he unloads to), but the problem is that there's exactly zero point in building an academy in that single case you know he is going reavers. Better get a tank or two turrets, or a tank and two turrets considering you also have to research flare and build a medic. Also take the sheer possibility that he unloads at a wrong time and manually kills the medic with his first scarab. Gameplan broken? It was shaky in the first place. | ||
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
On November 21 2007 01:01 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Optic Flare is always, no matter what, a waste of time and money. Simple as that. QFT. Now lets analyze this. Optical Flare Medics: Research from: Academy. Requires: Medic Casting Cost: 75m Effectiveness: Only To Detectors / Small unit groups. Range: 8 Length of Cast: Permanant. Mineral Cost: 150 Vespene Cost: 150 Research Time: 166 (seconds) Amount of Medics on Average Required: 4 - 6. 4-6 Medics: 200 / 100 (Minerals/Gas) ; 300 / 150 (Minerals/Gas) Ok, now lets take this into consideration. Since 2 Medics is equivlent to 1 Tank, that mean that you will need a faster second refinary to compensate for the gas. Which means that you must also Sacrifice 3+ Workers to mine the gas. In addition, the 150/150 Is basically a factory, whereas the 166 time limit is 3x a factory building time. The 4-6 Medics = 1 Factory or 1 fact + 1 tank OR 2Tanks. Or 2 scanners + 4 vultures. Medics will require a hotkey for themselves for cloning so now this means 1:Tanks(for me, other players use vultures?) 2:Vultures 3:Vultures 4:Vultures 5:Medics 67: Factories 8: Scanner / Factory / Scv? 90: Scanner. Due to this, lets see what would happen on certain maps that require timing pushes / timing push players.: 4 Factories(maximum! Since the 4-6 medics + 150/150 Upgrade + Faster Academy). Less Tank (due to gas consumption) Less Gas overall. Less Vulture Power reinforcement (due to factory cut). Advantages: -Blinded observers(The observer is 1+ Supply, and 25/75.) -Blinded Shuttles(early on-effective). -Constant Recharge since its a spell. -Medics last long. -Provides On-Field presence / Heals scvs In a timing push. Disadvantages: -Cut in gas -4-6 Supply is being Taken up. -Will generally only be used in a timing push. For those saying "IT WILL HELP VS REAVER DROP!!!" You obviously need to understand YOU CANT WASTE minerals that early in the game, you will need your tanks/factories. -Loss of minerals -Cut in factory amount -Cut in tanks -Cut in vulture reinforcement/production -FORCES early academy -Takes up a hotkey -Requires mana(can run out) -1 Medic is worse than 1 Turret in a timing push. -3 Medics is worse than 1 Turret in a timing push. -Completly a waste late game. -Hard to control optical flare shots -Teching to Science Vessle would be better / same amount of gas/minerals being used + Sci.V is actually a unit to counter-act the Protoss Arbiter / High Templar. Also, allows you to see Observers and kill them. -Slow units, bad by themselves. Clearly the disadvantges heavily outweigh the advantanges. Now people can sit there and say "you purposely looked for all the disadvantages, blah blah blah. Here are the advantages!". Truth is, 1 little mistake in progaming / ANY GAME with an equal player will cost you, equal players MUST spend time investing into actual units / factories. If they don't it will only cost them. This is obviously a theorycraft, and nothing more. The idea of it is "cute" and generally will only be used to embarass a player, not in actual scenraios. Even if a unit is "blind" if a unit around it has vision, then the "blind" unit can shoot and act as if it' snot blind. The only good thing, is a blinded observer, and only because it takes up supply, but ultimately it can still see, just not detect mines. It's a waste of teching cost and a waste of money overall. You need too much early game nowadays, and early / midgame transition is becoming the BIGGEST of all the gameplays(thank god). Also if you want to actual use a 'theorycraft', well its not really a theory craft, you can do the 4factory + Vessle timing push. For replays of the 4factory + Vessle timing push, I'm sure It's in Odin[fOu]'s replay pack, for he is the one that taught me it. Now THIS is an actual thing to be scared of, making all goons 1 shot kills for tanks is VERY scary. and it provides on-field prescene with detection / goliath to clear out observers / shuttles. Verdict: Medic's suck. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
upmagic used it TvP on monty hall once, alongside with scan as a delaying action against observer/goon. | ||
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
On November 23 2007 02:49 BluzMan wrote: Since when tanks deal 101 damage? Tank does 30% Splash damage to goons. 75 Dmg (+1 atk) + 23 = about 98, thats if 2 tanks shoot. 8Tanks = ? | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
4 fac push + EMP is unrealistic. Can turn out to be gamelosing because of the high gas-cost so early in the game. | ||
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
On November 23 2007 04:31 Waxangel wrote: thx for referencehas some limited use, but situations are pretty rare upmagic used it TvP on monty hall once, alongside with scan as a delaying action against observer/goon. edit: optic flare use starting at 17:45 | ||
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
On November 23 2007 02:35 lastshadow wrote: Now lets analyze this. Optic flare costs 100/100 to research, and takes 1.5 times as long as building a factory, not 3 times. | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
Before anyone rams a cock down my throat, Wow... ANYWAY: I don't doubt the usefulness of medics, even if they're not the most optimal unit, because against players who are not extremely good, players will be unused to the play style. Plus, you'll end up with some really fun replays, which is worth so much more than 50 standard PvTs. Personally, I've even gone so far to develop a weird style that I'll use Ghosts and Science Vessels in TvP occasionally (lockdown for reavers/shuttle, EMP for High Templar, and DT detection). It's really fun, and I think in the end that's the goal anyway. Who cares about winning when there's always going to be someone who could beat you 10-0 standard? I say use it to your hearts content. I've tried using it against Zerg Overlords so I could go mines (supplemental to a small m'm army) and enjoyed moderate success. And whoever said detection is still the same if you're blind... not in my experience  | ||
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MooNDog.
United States81 Posts
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xBTx
Canada542 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On November 23 2007 05:06 Funchucks wrote: Optic flare costs 100/100 to research, and takes 1.5 times as long as building a factory, not 3 times. Not on the maps he plays. Sorry couldn't resist. | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On November 29 2007 09:17 MooNDog. wrote: dont forget that boxer used medics in that game where he went medic wraith and took out a lot of carreirs but still lost It wasn't due to lack of effectiveness of the medics. That move took out like 6 carriers. Boxer had pretty much lost the game already, for other reasons (the 20 or so carriers in the game alone should give that away  ) | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On November 20 2007 22:36 Brutalisk wrote: - T normally doesn't get infantry in TvP, so no medics too. If you do, you'll just waste money on them which you need for factory units - All micro-intensive spells which are just "nice in some situations" instead of "essential" simply aren't used because they require too much attention. Players normally only use strong, area effect spells like storm, plague, swarm, stasis, maelstrom. Anything that requires manual clicking on a single unit is usually not worth the hassle, the game is simply too fast for that, i.e. your macro will suffer too much while using these spells. The only two exceptions are Irradiate and Yamato. (That's also why repair is only rarely used) Feedback has a lot of potential, and Mind Control shows up sometimes Personally, I think parasite will come into occasional use vs P sometime soon. | ||
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
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No0n
United States355 Posts
Two notable games: And another one: | ||
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Bwenjarin Raffrack
United States322 Posts
 Really's games on Match Point. In fact, Day[9] did a Daily on one of them which is probably the best place to start. Light as well tried a sort of flare + timing attack against Pure around the same time. In a winner's interview, Really said he was trying to find a way to generalize the strategy to work on other maps, but I can't remember any other games of his where it was used off the top of my head. Light later on also did his own specific anti-obs build where he gets a fast vessel and wraith and goes hunting: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36466_Light_vs_Violet/vod http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36487_Light_vs_Pure/vod I can't remember any notable optic flare games between then and now, so I may have missed a few. | ||
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