Generally the majority of the recent pro maps will take into account (or accidentally prevented) the gas issue (Reverse Temple, Longinus II, Tau Cross, Fantasy, Hitchhiker, Rush Hour III, Python, Monty Hall, Geometry, Chariots of Fire, etc.), at least for the main bases (which is the main place where it matters). A few do not (Sin Peaks of Baekdu foremost among them, but the difference in mining efficiency between right and left is much less pronounced than difference between up and down).

The majority of earlier (preceding late 2005 or so) pro maps don't have the gas issue in mind, but some have it right (e.g. LT, Ride of Valkyries [the gases are on the bottom, but for both main bases], Neo Requiem, and strangely enough, Alchemist).

alffla

Hong Kong20321 Posts

July 12 2007 21:02 GMT

#23

so if e.g in luna bottom ..right the gas is below and i build a spawning pool with the right edge matching the right edge of the vespene geyser does that help to align the drones?

Selector

Germany243 Posts

July 12 2007 21:25 GMT

#24

it wasnt ICCUP who created PA 2.0
it was a german mapmaker after Mondragon and I complained about Paranoid Android being unfair cause of the mining speed (you see it in ZvZ - overlord comes 20%-50% earlier at 12).
plus the gas issue etc...

so a german mapmaker rebuild PA (3 o clock) and Mondragon and I tested it (specially in TvT - if tanks can shoot to the other side).
It's really balanced now.

The funny part is - or why I write it...

Like 1 week after this map and the announcement that this map will be used at WCG Germany was released, the german WCG Admin got response from ... THE MAPMAKER OF PARANOID ANDROID HIMSELF!

And... what he wrote... that this map is IMBALANCED AND UNFAIR (rofl... look at his crappy version) - because of (guess what) AIR ATTACKS

lol...

nothing more to say.
just wanted to share this story cause I thought "must be a funny guy with little brain".

CharlieMurphy

United States22895 Posts

July 14 2007 08:45 GMT

#25

Sometimes its hard to balance the gas without imbalancing the "distance" or defendability around the area of the geyser itself. I always have this problem when making a map, it usually ends in the defeat of my map.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

July 14 2007 09:10 GMT

#26

thanks man

epidion

United States316 Posts

July 14 2007 09:33 GMT

#27

On July 13 2007 06:02 alffla wrote:
so if e.g in luna bottom ..right the gas is below and i build a spawning pool with the right edge matching the right edge of the vespene geyser does that help to align the drones?

No, the issue is that workers actually decelerate when approaching a geyser on the bottom and they don't do it when they geyser is on the top. In fact, placing a building in order to "align" your gas workers messes it up more ofen than not.

Equinox_kr

United States7395 Posts

July 14 2007 11:43 GMT

#28

How come the people at Mapdori haven't figured this out already? I would've thought that they would be one the of the first, being as they make professional maps :O

Nightmarjoo

United States3360 Posts

July 14 2007 12:00 GMT

#29

I have a little more insight on the gas issue in pro maps. I heard this from NastyMarine, who heard it from korean mapper Mapghost, aka m#. Basicly, all korean mappers know about the gas issue. If they have the gas issue, they don't care about it, or it's for better placement (sometimes placement > gas issue balance, but usually if that's the case then the mineral formation position needs redone in order to balance gas issue). The older maps have actually been copyrighted in a sense. Now this is illegal and breaks the staredit agreement, that no person can own anything they make in staredit, but somehow the koreans bypass this, or blizzard, knowing korea gives them their largest profit from sc, let's them do it anyway.

With the gas issue, directly left and center above are the fastest. 3 should under normal conditions (ie no retardedly placed buildings) mine optimally. I believe top mines slightly faster than left. A geyser directly right of the building is 3rd fastest, and it's not that far off of the other two, but adding a fourth worker helps. After that, every other one is horribly slower with only 3.

"Blue means best mining speed, red is worst.

The positions are numbered like this: The position where the geysir is diagonally to the top left is labeled as position 1. Position 2 is one tile to the right. Position 8 is directly above the main building; position 33 directly below.

To include a position into the blue coloured ones, I accepted a difference of at most 5% in mining speed; those 4 position where all 3 races have that speed are to be preferred.

Of course these are just rough values, though the test run over 15 minutes (approximately 10:05 real minutes) evened out a lot. Reasons for differences in a real game can be: buildings (I didn't use any comsats or whatever), terrain, some random stuff like from where your units came to the geysir. The biggest effect would certainly come from buildings and terrain, though" - spinesheath

These images were made by spinesheath, a bwm, staredit.net, and now I think maplantis.org mapper. The testing is his work, he's amazing

Nightmarjoo

United States3360 Posts

July 14 2007 12:02 GMT

#30

luna's pretty bad with the gas issue, basicly none of the positions mine very well =/

Jonoman92

United States9104 Posts

July 14 2007 13:28 GMT

#31

On July 14 2007 21:02 Nightmarjoo wrote:
luna's pretty bad with the gas issue, basicly none of the positions mine very well =/

Haha, you kinda contradict yourself. If none of them mine well then it's balanced as long as they are equally slow.

skyglow1

New Zealand3962 Posts

July 14 2007 13:53 GMT

#32

On July 14 2007 21:02 Nightmarjoo wrote:
luna's pretty bad with the gas issue, basicly none of the positions mine very well =/

The one at 7 position is pretty good, although not perfect. Sure beats the other 3 positions.

MyLostTemple

United States2921 Posts

July 14 2007 14:05 GMT

#33

you didn't notice this? :o

don't forget to use pylons to help curve your workers in a more efficient manner

micronesia

United States24746 Posts

July 14 2007 14:44 GMT

#34

On July 14 2007 22:28 Jonoman92 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Haha, you kinda contradict yourself. If none of them mine well then it's balanced as long as they are equally slow.

That's definitely true for mirror match ups. I think it's interesting that that may not be true for non-mirror match ups. If gas comes in slower (and requires more potential minerals be lost to the fourth worker's gas routine) that could make some strategies more/less effective in pvt, pvz, or tvz (in favor of one race). Of course I'm going on the assumption that 3 worker, optimal mining speed, is actually balanced which we know it at least mostly is on most maps. This is all highly theoretical and negligible either way haha.

Nightmarjoo

United States3360 Posts

July 14 2007 15:53 GMT

#35

On July 14 2007 22:28 Jonoman92 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Haha, you kinda contradict yourself. If none of them mine well then it's balanced as long as they are equally slow.

What you said makes me think you didn't read the articles :O
They're not equally bad, that's why it's the gas issue

Now 4 will optimally mine them, but for the thousands of gamers who aren't aware of the gas issue, or don't care about it, or who can't afford a 4th miner, or forgot to place a 4th, they are messed up by the 3 miner thing, but not equally so as another player.
I think NW main in luna mines the fastest, SW next, and the other two are just pretty bad.

Nightmarjoo

United States3360 Posts

July 14 2007 15:55 GMT

#36

Placing geysers to purposely need 4 miners hurts zerg a little, since that one fewer drone mining minerals is a big deal since zerg can't pump drones like terran can scvs or protoss probes, since their larva are busy being made something else. I think that was part of chameleon's balance, the nat had that weirdly placed geyser if I remember correctly so you needed like 5 workers to mine it, which makes a big deal for zerg.

Nightmarjoo

United States3360 Posts

July 14 2007 15:57 GMT

#37

Also note that the three races mine gas differently based on position. I believe in general protoss mines slowest for some reason. I don't know statistics on minerals mining.

Aux1

United States780 Posts

July 14 2007 16:35 GMT

#38

6 o clock gas works fine, just use depot pylon spawn pool etc there is never a need for 4 workers@gas. unless its on some odd map where the gas is extended.

Nightmarjoo

United States3360 Posts

July 14 2007 16:41 GMT

#39

lol says you. Most of the time adding a building actually slows the gas mining. It either does nothing or hurts you, never helps lol.

5HITCOMBO

Japan2239 Posts

July 14 2007 18:16 GMT

#40

Doesn't it help at 1 and 5 on Luna if you put a depot or pool lined up on the right side of the gas? Or does it just make the workers take a less wide path?