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United States948 Posts
That's the thing, you can't run before you know how to walk. Everyone who is already decent at the game is saying how good it is to play macro games. But it's good when you're already comfortable with the basics.
It's like people who have spent a few years learning a language that would recommend practice talking to a person as the best thing you can do to learn. But if you don't know a word, you can't learn from it since you don't understand it.
If you don't understand the game, you won't know why you are losing except "I should have macroed/microed better" which is useless to know. You can always macro or micro better. The way to learn this is you constantly put yourself under pressure. When you do all in builds you see yourself losing or winning based on a split second. It's a cannon finishing just in time, it's a zealot popping out before you kill the pylon. It's a probe getting into your base to see the hydra den. Each moment, each mistake is evident.
The next step after doing all in builds is getting a friend to all in you over and over again until you can beat it. Same concept, you will never leave your hatchery without an overlord over it if you just got bunker rushed one hundred times in a row. You WILL hotkey a mineral location to F3 and you WILL drill to it after seeing how drones cannot go through SCVs ten times in a row. Playing short games like that will give you immediate feedback.
Once you get two gated you will literally just throw down three sunken colonies in your natural. Because you've seen some shit. They will cancel two of them, maybe, but one will get up and you'll hold. The next step is seeing that the Protoss is going a slower two gate build from his natural and you only need one sunken. You need to adapt correctly, but you can't do it if you don't see the most all in variation first. If you just okay ladder and see two gate from inside the base with a light pressure, you'll underestimate two gate builds.
Bottom line: you first need to figure out the most all in crazy builds before you can see why Zerg plays overpool in ZvP, but 12 hatch in ZvT. You need to test 12 nex vs. overpool, 5 pool vs. 12 pool, etc.
I realized I didn't know how 12 pool did vs. 5 pool. But after practice, I figured out that the only way to lose is to lose your spawning pool. I no longer seal my base off with my spawning pool, I always leave a space for a drone drill between the pool and gas. Then I cancel my hatchery and make two sunkens in my base. I don't care that I only have like 8 drones left, I know the exact timing for a 5 pool so I can just win with one hatchery.
Once you know how those extreme situations play out, you can just play it safe. Before that, you just don't have any idea how to defend this crap. Macro games are a waste of time if you just lose right away. Even if you learn something, you'll get frustrated with the game. So you first must have a fire lit under your ass to tech or make defences right on time. Because you must know the consequences of being late. I don't even have a high apm. Some people probably harass with mutas while macroing. But what am I doing? I'm really just sending my mutas away while making sure I'm making that queen's nest in the exact second I have 100 gas. I will hold the three tank push while the 300 apm player will get his defiler irradiated a few seconds before consume is done.
I will probably get rank S with around 150 APM based on just crisp timing and tight builds. That's the point I'm trying to make.
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On September 19 2018 19:42 QuadroX wrote:
I'm glad I discovered lots of CPL streams. I advice all the new players to watch them where all the juicy stuff happens, especially at lower "tiers". This might get you thinking and reconsider your priorities. I seriously think it's possible to practice a solid Korean build for many years and get nowhere. Is it better for you in the long run? Would you grow faster? I'm not sure. Still doubting this theory.
I think that 20 years of SC history is evidence enough.
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United States948 Posts
It only works if you don't quit because you're no longer motivated. There is a survivorship bias in looking at what good people do, because they are the most motivated.
If you took a few casual players, the best way to get them all good at the game is to start with fun custom games. The last thing you want is to force a newer player to drill builds in single player over and over. Not only will they dislike it, they won't understand how to respond to aggression or greedy opponents.
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On September 20 2018 07:36 iopq wrote:
It only works if you don't quit because you're no longer motivated. There is a survivorship bias in looking at what good people do, because they are the most motivated.
If you took a few casual players, the best way to get them all good at the game is to start with fun custom games. The last thing you want is to force a newer player to drill builds in single player over and over. Not only will they dislike it, they won't understand how to respond to aggression or greedy opponents.
Definitely agree with the first half. Not so much the second.
I think if a person wants to "git gud" then it is important to actually put in the effort and learn BOs, grind them over and over to learn the interactions, etc. Then, when you get bored or plateau and get frustrated, that's when you can switch to goofing around in 3v3 Hunters or take a break from the game. I just think it's nonsense to say that the "theory" of learning build orders and grinding them for years doesn't make people better. Of course, there is more to it than that, such as analyzing replays and watching progamers, but I would argue that playing through the BO hundreds of times is the most key aspect of improvement. If you don't want to do that, then don't - but don't expect to improve much either at standard 1v1 IMO (edit: past a certain point ofc).
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An effective way to learn instincts and micro of the game is thru cheesing and being cheesed.
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wrong topic title ... should be "ALL IN LADDER STRATS FOR BAD Z".
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i got good without really learning / grinding BOs, experiment is key
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United States948 Posts
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/315317525 (laggy because I tethered to a phone)
so here I try to go over 3 hatch all-in builds, they're honestly pretty self-explanatory
start with a normal build, but then cut drones and go all-in - I think I go with about 22 drones for 3 hatch hydra so I can throw down a fourth hatchery earlier and transition to a macro game (or just kill the opponent anyway)
I do 11 hatch 10 pool scout 10 gas in ZvZ and then throw down a sunken and get lair before speed if my opponent is going 9 pool, and 3 hatch ling all-in if they don't do this
I start with 3 hatch muta and I can still attack with this if my opponent doesn't have a lot of units instead of taking a third
The hardest part is not dying before you get to the point where you can actually pull off the build - I'm going 12 hatch vs. Terran and overpool vs. Protoss which can still die to aggressive builds
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United States948 Posts
How to do 5 hatch hydra pressure build in ZvP
This assumes you scout forge FE, scout corsair first (standard build, nothing weird)
9 overlord
9 pool
scout after pool
hide drone behind minerals so if you're scouted second you can let the probe in your base and make a hatchery unharassed
11 hatchery
1 pair of lings if you see his probe at a normal timing
14 gas but don't get it right away, use a new drone popping out at around 150 minerals to make the gas
14 hatchery
16 lair
18 speed
start slowly trickling out zerglings at a certain point, Protoss will start to send out zealots to harass
25 spire
24 overlord
27 hatchery
32 hatchery
32 overlord
35 evo, den, gas
2 pairs of scourge
overlord speed
40something supply make hydra (6 on gas + 1 drone per mineral + whatever other units you have)
at 9:00 you can have +1, overlord speed, hydra speed and range
more than 85 supply of hydra/ling if neither players lost any units
see 5hh guide for more broad details
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United States948 Posts
I made a build order practice map for Fighting Spirit
https://mega.nz/#!hYoAHITD!UFR37_c4Vo1lwkvYEybJIH0RwuAIH-fUrXn300-bBGQ
it features a computer that does nothing - you still get to practice scouting it, but it won't attack you to interrupt your build
since you can play this in single player you can also practice splitting with this by constantly restarting the game
I guess you save at 9 supply and load from that point, it will save you time
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United States948 Posts
Here is the build order for when you don't see a fast scout and you don't scout them fast - you need to build 3 pairs of lings just in case. Or the opposite, the Protoss scouts you first, puts a pylon in your nat and doesn't cancel.
it either means they scouted you first or they went gate first build (gate expo or two gate)
follow this build if they in fact scouted you last and went forge expand
9 pool
overlord
scout after pool
11 hatch
10 three pairs of lings and run straight to the Protoss base to make him block his extrance (or run by if he doesn't, don't kill the cannon unless you have more lings on the way)
15 gas (at 150 minerals)
14 hatch
16 lair
16 overlord
18 speed
24 spire
24 overlord
trickle out lings now, Protoss can move out with zealots
27 hatch
32 hatch (if you can afford it without floating larva, push it back if you need to spend larva)
32 overlord
two pairs of scourge
35 den evo gas
this build slows your spire timing down, slows your further hatcheries down, making your total supply lower at the same 9 minute mark
but if you can get 3-4 lings into the Protoss base and force him to pull probes to chase your lings, you will win that exchange unless you don't macro while moving your lings
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This is such a lol thread. Starts out as a guide for beginner zergs and then is just a bunch of videos of 4 and 5 pooling. Any noob can do a 4 pool but it takes more intelligence to learn the macro mid games and other fundamentals of Starcraft. I doubt the strategy’s you’re “teaching” are ones anybody doesn’t know. U should do videos teachings 3 hatch muta / lurker/ hive play not to mention all of zvp.
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On October 12 2018 11:23 Yanokabo wrote:
This is such a lol thread. Starts out as a guide for beginner zergs and then is just a bunch of videos of 4 and 5 pooling. Any noob can do a 4 pool but it takes more intelligence to learn the macro mid games and other fundamentals of Starcraft. I doubt the strategy’s you’re “teaching” are ones anybody doesn’t know. U should do videos teachings 3 hatch muta / lurker/ hive play not to mention all of zvp.
You're probably reading the wrong thread cause there's a lot of info for intermediate players here. Literally the post above yours talks about ZvP mid-game lmao.
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People dont want the samething .
I would prefer to get help on harder stuff than on * how to 4pool * but any help us welcome imo.
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United States948 Posts
On October 12 2018 12:57 TheBrochette wrote:
People dont want the samething .
I would prefer to get help on harder stuff than on * how to 4pool * but any help us welcome imo.
Action used the 1 hatch muta build that I also show in this thread. These builds are viable at the pro level.
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United States948 Posts
How to do 3 hatch muta into lurker egg block (vs. 1 rax expand into bio builds) on CB and other slightly bigger maps
9 overlord
12 hatch
scout
13 pool
13 hatch
12 gas
100% pool one pair of lings
16 overlord
18 lair
100 gas speed and second extractor at close to the same time
trickle out a few lings or make a sunken
24 overlord
100% lair spire
33 supply overlordx3
hotkey 9 larva before spire is done to your muta hotkey and rally all hatcheries forward to save time
11 muta, overlord
creep colonies (morph when you need them)
50 gas lurker den hotkey so you can research lurker aspect while controlling muta
100 gas queen's nest
third base
when hydra den is done, lurker aspect and 3 hydras, run 3 hydras directly to the third before lurker aspect is done
when queen's nest is done, hive (you should have 100 gas)
more hydras for lurkers to protect the main
a bit of scourge to protect from drops/science vessels
100% hive nydus in natural to link with third, defiler den, crackling upgrade
2x evolution chambers and research +1 melee/+1 carapace once done
100% defiler den consume first
68% consume at least 2 defilers
100% consume plague upgrade
hatchery spam since now you're getting a decent mineral income
eat zerglings and push out to take your fourth base
ultralisk den when you can afford it, usually around the time 1/1 gets done so you can get 2/2 started and ultra upgrades at the same time to push out with 4/2
whether you use drops, queens, or transition back to hydra/lurker/defiler depends on the situation
if you want to use drops early, you can start overlord speed after 1/1 is started since that's the point where you can spare some gas if Terran is transitioning to mech
these timings of course assume Terran didn't do heavy damage to you or force you to spam a lot of units
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Nice, detailed build-order, great work iopq.
Just one thing: Maybe you could elaborate a bit about droning, from the 33 supply overlords/11 mutas onward. Just some benchmark numbers at different points of your build-order.
Or do Zergs not drone any more after 33?
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funny that you posted 1 hatch lurker drop vs protoss but not 1 hatch lurker variations against terran? vastly more effective to go 1 hatch against a terran than a protoss.
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United States948 Posts
On October 30 2018 17:16 Highgamer wrote:Nice, detailed build-order, great work iopq. Just one thing: Maybe you could elaborate a bit about droning, from the 33 supply overlords/11 mutas onward. Just some benchmark numbers at different points of your build-order. Or do Zergs not drone any more after 33?
it depends on what your opponent is doing and how you decide to counter it and even map/spawns
let's say your opponent went HARD 5 rax pressure and he's close spawns to you in FS - you may need a ton of zerglings to actually get your third up
if they have 3 rax factory you should drone hard and get +1 carapace before hive and mass lurkers
so the amount of zerglings and drones is variable
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EPT
