EPTdoing it in clanwar is fine as a protoss myself i double 4pooled a korean semipro to win as well but in ladder its not worth it .... u get wins but u learn nothing means u play now vs BETTER opponents but still be bad
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player - Page 5
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
doing it in clanwar is fine as a protoss myself i double 4pooled a korean semipro to win as well but in ladder its not worth it .... u get wins but u learn nothing means u play now vs BETTER opponents but still be bad | ||
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iopq
United States903 Posts
1. You learn how to do a build order. People who can already play the game don't appreciate this. Only certain obsessive people are going to sit there and practice the same build against the computer until they get it down to pro level. I literally use save games to load from the middle of the build to practice scouting and macro at the same time against the computer. The average person just wants to play the game. 2. You learn how to deny scouting. Even when attempting this I would be often foiled by not finding a stupid probe on the map and instantly losing. If you deny scouting well while doing a macro build your opponent may have to prepare for everything. 3. You learn the current map pool. Since maps frequently change, beginners probably won't know them well and won't take the time to look at them in the map editor. They certainly won't try walling in four different locations trying to find ling tight configurations. On FS, I know factory + barracks light tight walls and two depot + barracks ling tight wall. It's not because I know how to wall, it's because Terrans have used those walls against me. Similarly, I know how many gaps Protoss walls have in each position. 4. You learn how to control units. So many times I see even good players just attack move workers with zerglings and get absolutely smashed by a drill. 6 zerglings can't take 12 scvs! If you ran by a cannon, using remaining 3 zerglings to just kill 3 probes is not worth it. You have to micro to actually make your opening work for you. 5. You learn how to macro/multitask. When you have zerglings in your opponent's base and they're doing work, but he's not dead yet, you still need to make drones back at home and take expos. While you're making his workers chase your zerglings around. Happens a lot when you run by a single cannon or the Terran couldn't block your lings from entering his base. It just happens to be that intermediate players know how to do all of those things already pretty well, so they don't learn as much. This is why cheesy players at the higher levels have a bad reputation. But for a beginner there's no reason to lose to a 2 gate or bunker rush when you could have been opening 9 pool every game to actually be safe. His opponent doesn't have builds that are tight enough for the small difference to matter, but the extra safety will keep him sane during laddering. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1538 Posts
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iopq
United States903 Posts
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ordeal11
Czech Republic52 Posts
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On April 11 2019 02:16 iopq wrote: You learn nothing from doing an all-in? That's wrong. 1. You learn how to do a build order. No, you don't. You get an idea what a real build order might be like. 2. You learn how to deny scouting. One of the very few good points of your argumentation. 3. You learn the current map pool. No, you don't. You don't learn how map features influence larger clumps of units, ramp and cliff mechanics, not to mention dozends of crucial special map featuers such as stacked neutral buildings, blocked expos, island expos and such. You really don't. 4. You learn how to control units. No, you don't. You get a very basic feeling about few units. What you are telling about defense is better taught in 2n2, which is - with a friendly ally - also a lot more rewarding and helps you to socialize. Good luck finding friends by doing all-ins all the time. 5. You learn how to macro/multitask. You got to be shitting me here. It just happens to be that intermediate players know how to do all of those things already pretty well, so they don't learn as much. This is why cheesy players at the higher levels have a bad reputation. But for a beginner there's no reason to lose to a 2 gate or bunker rush when you could have been opening 9 pool every game to actually be safe. His opponent doesn't have builds that are tight enough for the small difference to matter, but the extra safety will keep him sane during laddering. On point again, but you got to be careful to highlight what you mean when you post "guides". Else newcomers will read that as if 9 Pool is a magical solution and the best variation of any Zerg opening when it clearly isn't. | ||
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castleeMg
Canada759 Posts
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Jealous
10113 Posts
On April 12 2019 23:35 castleeMg wrote: I think the guides are good but it’s all relative to what your goals are Which is, imaginably, reflective of the person who wrote the guide as a person - or at the very least, what THEIR approach to the game is, what they value, etc. I think one of iopq's major reasons is that "losing sucks, noobs lose a lot, when you lose a lot you want to quit." This is definitely true for some, but not for all. I think it's about being self-aware (which is sometimes lacking in new players, hell, all of us) and deciding which guide or advice actually applies to you as a player. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1593 Posts
On April 13 2019 05:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing. Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw. Well said! Playing standard can quickly become stale and boring for some. Playing different styles, especially aggressive all-ins is simply fun. | ||
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Jealous
10113 Posts
On April 13 2019 05:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing. Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw. I mean, you say that, but I'm pretty sure Cadenzie makes balloon money. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On April 13 2019 06:27 EndingLife wrote: Mhm. Theres an odd over competitiveness in the community, where playing the game is referred to as 'practice' and people self stylize as coaches, fixation on getting your ladder score higher, blah blah. Certain portion of the community must be related to OCD personality shit because they seem obsessive.Well said! Playing standard can quickly become stale and boring for some. Playing different styles, especially aggressive all-ins is simply fun. | ||
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Highgamer
1401 Posts
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iopq
United States903 Posts
On April 13 2019 00:40 Jealous wrote: Which is, imaginably, reflective of the person who wrote the guide as a person - or at the very least, what THEIR approach to the game is, what they value, etc. I think one of iopq's major reasons is that "losing sucks, noobs lose a lot, when you lose a lot you want to quit." Not at all. It's more like "if you do a standard build order as a new player you won't get a quick feedback cycle" You're going to go wrong maybe in a dozen different points trying to do a standard build. Basically anyone watching the replay would say "you're doing everything wrong" I want to get past this part quickly, and bang out some games where you can say "I got hard countered, I did nothing wrong but he went 2 gate and stomped my 5 pool" That's when you try to do something like 3 hatch hydra and learn to actually stop the 2 gate before you get to your OWN build. The key point is you didn't need to learn to defend your first few games. It limits the scope of what you needed to learn. In fact, the most OPTIMAL way to learn the game is to pick a build, get an opponent that does another standard build, do them until you get them down perfectly, save the game, and just keep resuming and playing from that point forward. But what build is that? Playing vs. 2 gate, 9 pool, bunker rush every game but playing like you don't know it's coming. Until you stop losing to it, just keep grinding it out. After you do that, you play vs. other stupid stuff like 1 gate tech, 2 port wraith, etc. But of course, that requires a practice partner. This is specifically a guide to how to practice every tournament viable build by yourself. If you want to play in a tournament, you're going to eventually need to practice all-in builds for longer series to keep your opponent guessing. Every single pro player knows how to do them. Why are people averse to learning them? Everyone who's good has spent some time actually polishing their 5 pool. | ||
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Jealous
10113 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1538 Posts
On April 12 2019 07:54 iopq wrote: Really? Because at pro level 9 pool is competitive with 12 pool. Like 50% win rate on FS. When do you get bored of getting smashed? Lol Ho really? Then let's play and go always 9pool see how your 50% goes. | ||
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iopq
United States903 Posts
On May 17 2019 19:35 iFU.pauline wrote: Ho really? Then let's play and go always 9pool see how your 50% goes. If we played and your 9 pool beat my 12 pool 100% of the time, what would it prove? It would only prove we're mismatched as players but look at actual pro games, 9 pool often beats 12 pool on FS and other small maps | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States786 Posts
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