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[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player - Page 5

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
April 10 2019 10:57 GMT
#81
but u LEARN nothing so doing it on ladder will not make u better ...
doing it in clanwar is fine as a protoss myself i double 4pooled a korean semipro to win as well but in ladder its not worth it .... u get wins but u learn nothing means u play now vs BETTER opponents but still be bad
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States903 Posts
April 10 2019 17:16 GMT
#82
You learn nothing from doing an all-in? That's wrong.

1. You learn how to do a build order. People who can already play the game don't appreciate this. Only certain obsessive people are going to sit there and practice the same build against the computer until they get it down to pro level. I literally use save games to load from the middle of the build to practice scouting and macro at the same time against the computer. The average person just wants to play the game.

2. You learn how to deny scouting. Even when attempting this I would be often foiled by not finding a stupid probe on the map and instantly losing. If you deny scouting well while doing a macro build your opponent may have to prepare for everything.

3. You learn the current map pool. Since maps frequently change, beginners probably won't know them well and won't take the time to look at them in the map editor. They certainly won't try walling in four different locations trying to find ling tight configurations. On FS, I know factory + barracks light tight walls and two depot + barracks ling tight wall. It's not because I know how to wall, it's because Terrans have used those walls against me. Similarly, I know how many gaps Protoss walls have in each position.

4. You learn how to control units. So many times I see even good players just attack move workers with zerglings and get absolutely smashed by a drill. 6 zerglings can't take 12 scvs! If you ran by a cannon, using remaining 3 zerglings to just kill 3 probes is not worth it. You have to micro to actually make your opening work for you.

5. You learn how to macro/multitask. When you have zerglings in your opponent's base and they're doing work, but he's not dead yet, you still need to make drones back at home and take expos. While you're making his workers chase your zerglings around. Happens a lot when you run by a single cannon or the Terran couldn't block your lings from entering his base.

It just happens to be that intermediate players know how to do all of those things already pretty well, so they don't learn as much. This is why cheesy players at the higher levels have a bad reputation. But for a beginner there's no reason to lose to a 2 gate or bunker rush when you could have been opening 9 pool every game to actually be safe. His opponent doesn't have builds that are tight enough for the small difference to matter, but the extra safety will keep him sane during laddering.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1538 Posts
April 10 2019 18:18 GMT
#83
allins are such a weak way of playing when you are starting, it gives no special satisfaction aside of the fact that you caught your opponent off guard while being much worse than him most of the time and you are completely naked if that doesn't work and will lose miserably. Playing like that will make you an unsecure bitch with low self esteem. On the other hand you could watch some recommended replays, try a bit everything and focus on a build order that is of your liking. Disregard difficulty when learning, the most important is the fun you get. But to give a direction, I would start with pool9 for zvz until you get bored to get smashed by pool12. For z v t any lurker opening bo.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States903 Posts
April 11 2019 22:54 GMT
#84
Really? Because at pro level 9 pool is competitive with 12 pool. Like 50% win rate on FS. When do you get bored of getting smashed? Lol
ordeal11
Profile Joined August 2018
Czech Republic52 Posts
April 12 2019 02:12 GMT
#85
Well I'm thinking about getting into bw, already bought it but didn't have time to play yet, heck I don't even know which race I'm gonna pick, but if someone would teach me 4 pool as first build I would be pretty upset.
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany2016 Posts
April 12 2019 05:35 GMT
#86
On April 11 2019 02:16 iopq wrote:
You learn nothing from doing an all-in? That's wrong.

1. You learn how to do a build order.


No, you don't. You get an idea what a real build order might be like.


2. You learn how to deny scouting.


One of the very few good points of your argumentation.


3. You learn the current map pool.


No, you don't. You don't learn how map features influence larger clumps of units, ramp and cliff mechanics, not to mention dozends of crucial special map featuers such as stacked neutral buildings, blocked expos, island expos and such. You really don't.


4. You learn how to control units.


No, you don't. You get a very basic feeling about few units. What you are telling about defense is better taught in 2n2, which is - with a friendly ally - also a lot more rewarding and helps you to socialize. Good luck finding friends by doing all-ins all the time.


5. You learn how to macro/multitask.


You got to be shitting me here.


It just happens to be that intermediate players know how to do all of those things already pretty well, so they don't learn as much. This is why cheesy players at the higher levels have a bad reputation. But for a beginner there's no reason to lose to a 2 gate or bunker rush when you could have been opening 9 pool every game to actually be safe. His opponent doesn't have builds that are tight enough for the small difference to matter, but the extra safety will keep him sane during laddering.


On point again, but you got to be careful to highlight what you mean when you post "guides". Else newcomers will read that as if 9 Pool is a magical solution and the best variation of any Zerg opening when it clearly isn't.
castleeMg
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Canada759 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-12 14:35:52
April 12 2019 14:35 GMT
#87
I think I can see the argument on both sides. Iopq is suggesting all in build orders for new players to get into ladder immediately with more success than they would of if they played “standard.” I think it depends on how new you are and what your goals are, if you don’t know anything about Starcraft and just want to fuck around and see how much damage you can do with all ins then this is a great guide. But if you want long term success in Broodwar you have to learn mid-late game at some point. Iopq has a good point though in which many pro Zerg players implement very aggressive all ins based on map and scouting information. I think the guides are good but it’s all relative to what your goals are
AKA: castle[eMg]@USEast/ iCCup
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10113 Posts
April 12 2019 15:40 GMT
#88
On April 12 2019 23:35 castleeMg wrote:
I think the guides are good but it’s all relative to what your goals are

Which is, imaginably, reflective of the person who wrote the guide as a person - or at the very least, what THEIR approach to the game is, what they value, etc. I think one of iopq's major reasons is that "losing sucks, noobs lose a lot, when you lose a lot you want to quit." This is definitely true for some, but not for all. I think it's about being self-aware (which is sometimes lacking in new players, hell, all of us) and deciding which guide or advice actually applies to you as a player.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
April 12 2019 20:35 GMT
#89
You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing.

Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw.
EndingLife
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States1593 Posts
April 12 2019 21:27 GMT
#90
On April 13 2019 05:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing.

Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw.

Well said! Playing standard can quickly become stale and boring for some. Playing different styles, especially aggressive all-ins is simply fun.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10113 Posts
April 12 2019 21:39 GMT
#91
On April 13 2019 05:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing.

Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw.

I mean, you say that, but I'm pretty sure Cadenzie makes balloon money.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
April 13 2019 06:44 GMT
#92
On April 13 2019 06:27 EndingLife wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2019 05:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing.

Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw.

Well said! Playing standard can quickly become stale and boring for some. Playing different styles, especially aggressive all-ins is simply fun.
Mhm. Theres an odd over competitiveness in the community, where playing the game is referred to as 'practice' and people self stylize as coaches, fixation on getting your ladder score higher, blah blah. Certain portion of the community must be related to OCD personality shit because they seem obsessive.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1401 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-13 15:41:39
April 13 2019 06:52 GMT
#93
edit: back to work in progress xD
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States903 Posts
May 15 2019 04:59 GMT
#94
On April 13 2019 00:40 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2019 23:35 castleeMg wrote:
I think the guides are good but it’s all relative to what your goals are

Which is, imaginably, reflective of the person who wrote the guide as a person - or at the very least, what THEIR approach to the game is, what they value, etc. I think one of iopq's major reasons is that "losing sucks, noobs lose a lot, when you lose a lot you want to quit."

Not at all. It's more like "if you do a standard build order as a new player you won't get a quick feedback cycle"

You're going to go wrong maybe in a dozen different points trying to do a standard build. Basically anyone watching the replay would say "you're doing everything wrong"

I want to get past this part quickly, and bang out some games where you can say "I got hard countered, I did nothing wrong but he went 2 gate and stomped my 5 pool"

That's when you try to do something like 3 hatch hydra and learn to actually stop the 2 gate before you get to your OWN build. The key point is you didn't need to learn to defend your first few games. It limits the scope of what you needed to learn.

In fact, the most OPTIMAL way to learn the game is to pick a build, get an opponent that does another standard build, do them until you get them down perfectly, save the game, and just keep resuming and playing from that point forward.

But what build is that? Playing vs. 2 gate, 9 pool, bunker rush every game but playing like you don't know it's coming. Until you stop losing to it, just keep grinding it out. After you do that, you play vs. other stupid stuff like 1 gate tech, 2 port wraith, etc.

But of course, that requires a practice partner. This is specifically a guide to how to practice every tournament viable build by yourself. If you want to play in a tournament, you're going to eventually need to practice all-in builds for longer series to keep your opponent guessing. Every single pro player knows how to do them.

Why are people averse to learning them? Everyone who's good has spent some time actually polishing their 5 pool.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10113 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-15 15:47:24
May 15 2019 15:46 GMT
#95
EDIT: Nvm.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
May 15 2019 17:23 GMT
#96
The scene is also full of enough cookie cutter bitches who copy every-single-action including basic decision making from progamers, or other players who have done the same. At least starting out with aggression a given player has the potential to develop into a more creative and self affirming style.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1538 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-17 10:35:24
May 17 2019 10:35 GMT
#97
On April 12 2019 07:54 iopq wrote:
Really? Because at pro level 9 pool is competitive with 12 pool. Like 50% win rate on FS. When do you get bored of getting smashed? Lol


Ho really? Then let's play and go always 9pool see how your 50% goes.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States903 Posts
May 22 2019 01:05 GMT
#98
On May 17 2019 19:35 iFU.pauline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2019 07:54 iopq wrote:
Really? Because at pro level 9 pool is competitive with 12 pool. Like 50% win rate on FS. When do you get bored of getting smashed? Lol


Ho really? Then let's play and go always 9pool see how your 50% goes.

If we played and your 9 pool beat my 12 pool 100% of the time, what would it prove? It would only prove we're mismatched as players

but look at actual pro games, 9 pool often beats 12 pool on FS and other small maps
Ty2
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1434 Posts
May 22 2019 03:57 GMT
#99
--- Nuked ---
Writer
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States786 Posts
May 25 2019 10:02 GMT
#100
Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?
NAKR`flying
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