On May 25 2019 19:02 fearthequeen wrote:
Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?

One potential argument would be the issue of establishing bad habits or a reward dependency in a game that is often unrewarding and which punishes bad habits which hold you back if your opponent stabilizes after a cheese. I 100% agree that 5 pool is probably the most accessible strategy in Brood War that is viable, but by the same token I find it to be the one that is among the least representative of the game overall.

Dazed.

Canada3301 Posts

May 25 2019 15:35 GMT

#102

On May 26 2019 00:11 Jealous wrote:

Show nested quote +

Reward dependency...is that another way of saying enjoying yourself? If someone wants to play a game only insofar as they enjoy it, not sure what the issue is...

everyone is capable of navigating their own wants and desires and intentions, especially regarding something as trivial as a video game. If a cheesy new player wants to take this game really fucking seriously, he will naturally not become "reward dependent" since it isnt aligned with his goals. Its not anyone elses concern but that persons how he plays or why he plays or how far he takes it. And yet, theres a slew of people in this thread who seem to object and think that there even could be an argument against this, at all. Ridiculous!

Jealous

8061 Posts

May 25 2019 15:39 GMT

#103

On May 26 2019 00:35 Dazed. wrote:

Show nested quote +

Reward dependency...is that another way of saying enjoying yourself? If someone wants to play a game only insofar as they enjoy it, not sure what the issue is...

everyone is capable of navigating their own wants and desires and intentions, especially something as trivial as a video game. If a cheesy new player wants to take this game really fucking seriously, he will naturally not become "reward dependent" since it isnt aligned with his goals. Its not anyone elses concern but that persons how he plays or why he plays or how far he takes it. And yet, theres a slew of people in this thread who seem to object and think that there even could be an argument against this, at all. Ridiculous!

What I mean is more along the lines of growing to only enjoy the game whilst winning or having won one, which you are right in saying may be one's disposition from the outset. The issue I see is that it may cultivate a dependency in those people who do not necessarily have such a predisposition, and thus would limit them from finding new ways to enjoy the game.

This is ultimately all theoretical and opinion so I wouldn't go so far as pretending there isn't an argument for learning cheese first, but let's not pretend there isn't an argument for NOT doing so. Don't become that which you argue against.

Anc13nt

1187 Posts

May 28 2019 00:27 GMT

#104

I think it's pretty interesting idea to learn the game by starting with cheese and then progressing towards macro play as you improve. I personally started by learning builds like 5 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, etc so I have no experience of whether or not learning the basics by cheesing would work well, but the idea makes a lot of sense to me. I was fortunate enough to play with people near my skill level when I started the game but the ladder is very unforgiving for new players. I think players with below 70ish apm probably should follow iopq's guide for the reasons that he's given. Anyway, whether or not iopq's idea turns out to be really useful, I still found the guide pretty helpful for teaching zerg cheese even for players who are not completely new to the game.

That said, I think Jealous has a good point. It's probable that a lot of players are tempted to cheese in order to get good winrates and they want to avoid learning to play macro either because it's less fun for them or because they don't want to keep losing at first. I've known of a few players who only cheese and they have been doing this for a very long time. This mindset sort of applies to me as well since I often have the habit of trying to close games in the midgame with strong timings because I don't want to play lategame (because I am bad at it and don't want to lose) and as a result, my lategame is really bad in almost every matchup.

reps)squishy

United States716 Posts

June 17 2019 06:58 GMT

#105

This is semi off topic. But as a history major one of my professors made us read a paper called "The end of history" by Fukuyama. He argues that history has achieved its final form of governance, liberal democracy, after the collapse of the soviet union. Most of us history majors disagree with statements said, but the fact that someone said something so fervently sparks a conversation.

iopq in this case is in the same position, he has created a great discussion on how the game should be played, or the fact if there is a right way to play the game. Ultimately it comes down to the player and the goals that they have. If you plan on being a tournament player and aspire to win a defiler tournament, maybe this is not the route one should go. However, if you pop on for maybe 2 hours a week and just want to play against people, but not commit too much time this is probably a good route.