On May 25 2019 19:02 fearthequeen wrote: Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?
One potential argument would be the issue of establishing bad habits or a reward dependency in a game that is often unrewarding and which punishes bad habits which hold you back if your opponent stabilizes after a cheese. I 100% agree that 5 pool is probably the most accessible strategy in Brood War that is viable, but by the same token I find it to be the one that is among the least representative of the game overall.
On May 25 2019 19:02 fearthequeen wrote: Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?
One potential argument would be the issue of establishing bad habits or a reward dependency in a game that is often unrewarding and which punishes bad habits which hold you back if your opponent stabilizes after a cheese. I 100% agree that 5 pool is probably the most accessible strategy in Brood War that is viable, but by the same token I find it to be the one that is among the least representative of the game overall.
Reward dependency...is that another way of saying enjoying yourself? If someone wants to play a game only insofar as they enjoy it, not sure what the issue is...
everyone is capable of navigating their own wants and desires and intentions, especially regarding something as trivial as a video game. If a cheesy new player wants to take this game really fucking seriously, he will naturally not become "reward dependent" since it isnt aligned with his goals. Its not anyone elses concern but that persons how he plays or why he plays or how far he takes it. And yet, theres a slew of people in this thread who seem to object and think that there even could be an argument against this, at all. Ridiculous!
On May 25 2019 19:02 fearthequeen wrote: Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?
One potential argument would be the issue of establishing bad habits or a reward dependency in a game that is often unrewarding and which punishes bad habits which hold you back if your opponent stabilizes after a cheese. I 100% agree that 5 pool is probably the most accessible strategy in Brood War that is viable, but by the same token I find it to be the one that is among the least representative of the game overall.
Reward dependency...is that another way of saying enjoying yourself? If someone wants to play a game only insofar as they enjoy it, not sure what the issue is...
everyone is capable of navigating their own wants and desires and intentions, especially something as trivial as a video game. If a cheesy new player wants to take this game really fucking seriously, he will naturally not become "reward dependent" since it isnt aligned with his goals. Its not anyone elses concern but that persons how he plays or why he plays or how far he takes it. And yet, theres a slew of people in this thread who seem to object and think that there even could be an argument against this, at all. Ridiculous!
What I mean is more along the lines of growing to only enjoy the game whilst winning or having won one, which you are right in saying may be one's disposition from the outset. The issue I see is that it may cultivate a dependency in those people who do not necessarily have such a predisposition, and thus would limit them from finding new ways to enjoy the game.
This is ultimately all theoretical and opinion so I wouldn't go so far as pretending there isn't an argument for learning cheese first, but let's not pretend there isn't an argument for NOT doing so. Don't become that which you argue against.
I think it's pretty interesting idea to learn the game by starting with cheese and then progressing towards macro play as you improve. I personally started by learning builds like 5 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, etc so I have no experience of whether or not learning the basics by cheesing would work well, but the idea makes a lot of sense to me. I was fortunate enough to play with people near my skill level when I started the game but the ladder is very unforgiving for new players. I think players with below 70ish apm probably should follow iopq's guide for the reasons that he's given. Anyway, whether or not iopq's idea turns out to be really useful, I still found the guide pretty helpful for teaching zerg cheese even for players who are not completely new to the game.
That said, I think Jealous has a good point. It's probable that a lot of players are tempted to cheese in order to get good winrates and they want to avoid learning to play macro either because it's less fun for them or because they don't want to keep losing at first. I've known of a few players who only cheese and they have been doing this for a very long time. This mindset sort of applies to me as well since I often have the habit of trying to close games in the midgame with strong timings because I don't want to play lategame (because I am bad at it and don't want to lose) and as a result, my lategame is really bad in almost every matchup.
This is semi off topic. But as a history major one of my professors made us read a paper called "The end of history" by Fukuyama. He argues that history has achieved its final form of governance, liberal democracy, after the collapse of the soviet union. Most of us history majors disagree with statements said, but the fact that someone said something so fervently sparks a conversation.
iopq in this case is in the same position, he has created a great discussion on how the game should be played, or the fact if there is a right way to play the game. Ultimately it comes down to the player and the goals that they have. If you plan on being a tournament player and aspire to win a defiler tournament, maybe this is not the route one should go. However, if you pop on for maybe 2 hours a week and just want to play against people, but not commit too much time this is probably a good route.
Here's a newer zergling pressure build that can transition to midgame, I first saw it done by Soma in a slower variation, but it's not good against 9 gate pressure because your zerglings are very slow, so I am following a more recent build he does
It should be used against Protosses that went gate expand, against forge expand you want to actually just drone because it won't work at this exact timing (they have a cannon up)
9 overlord cancel overlord, 9 hatchery 9 overlord 9 pool scout the Protoss and block his first zealot drone until 11, then save larva for zerglings 16 hatch at third 18 overlord
get gas when you want to get gas, you can transition to whatever you want and build as many zerglings as you want, it's very flexible
Note: if you see a fast probe, don't put the hatchery down and immediately get a pool and just play 9 overpool build order because it's forge expand which means he can just cannon rush your hatchery right away and even pros lose to this with fast hatchery
When you reach his base, don't try to run by, just kill his gateway and micro when he comes out to defend it, you can often surround and kill zealots when he's not careful - then he might have no zealots and no gateway
On June 17 2019 15:58 reps)squishy wrote: This is semi off topic. But as a history major one of my professors made us read a paper called "The end of history" by Fukuyama. He argues that history has achieved its final form of governance, liberal democracy, after the collapse of the soviet union. Most of us history majors disagree with statements said, but the fact that someone said something so fervently sparks a conversation.
iopq in this case is in the same position, he has created a great discussion on how the game should be played, or the fact if there is a right way to play the game. Ultimately it comes down to the player and the goals that they have. If you plan on being a tournament player and aspire to win a defiler tournament, maybe this is not the route one should go. However, if you pop on for maybe 2 hours a week and just want to play against people, but not commit too much time this is probably a good route.
lmao What does Fukuyama say now xd. Many countries have fallen to authoritarian regimes, even those that were the supposed divine wonders of democracies with leader that seemingly supported democracy like Turkey with their never ending President Erdogan. And by tell it is not a big surprise that Žižek likes Fukuyama that much. After all it follows the same principle of explainging history as a simplification of processes just like Marx with an end result. But many countries seem to work more like an Aristokratie anyway.
On January 17 2022 22:54 iopq wrote: Here's a newer zergling pressure build that can transition to midgame, I first saw it done by Soma in a slower variation, but it's not good against 9 gate pressure because your zerglings are very slow, so I am following a more recent build he does
It should be used against Protosses that went gate expand, against forge expand you want to actually just drone because it won't work at this exact timing (they have a cannon up)
9 overlord cancel overlord, 9 hatchery 9 overlord 9 pool scout the Protoss and block his first zealot drone until 11, then save larva for zerglings 16 hatch at third 18 overlord
get gas when you want to get gas, you can transition to whatever you want and build as many zerglings as you want, it's very flexible
Note: if you see a fast probe, don't put the hatchery down and immediately get a pool and just play 9 overpool build order because it's forge expand which means he can just cannon rush your hatchery right away and even pros lose to this with fast hatchery
When you reach his base, don't try to run by, just kill his gateway and micro when he comes out to defend it, you can often surround and kill zealots when he's not careful - then he might have no zealots and no gateway
thx xd, i wondered if 9 hatch would be good vs stupid probe block/pylon block non sense, specially since this can become a big problem in your whole build with zealots coming to get on your nerves. This reminds me about the game soma vs mini were soma went 4 hatch at 4 different mineral bases vs gate expand and somehow won.xd
The timing for the 4/5 pool is much faster than 9 pool, your gas and pool will be nowhere near done, on Eclipse I saw 4 pool lings with the second overlord at 2:23 because he went around the first overlord - my pool is only half done
The correct response when you see lings so early is to cancel your 12 hatch (and gas probably too) and build two sunkens immediately. That way you have double his drone count unless your drone pulls have been terrible
This is also how you can easily block it with 12 pool with no damage - your sunkens will be up quickly, you don't need a second hatch to win, cancel it in that case too, you are almost guaranteed not to lose anything if you just run drones around without fighting much
I am around 1800 on ladder, 65% win-rate outside it, and I still (probably) can't beat 1v3 comp, without cheating using probe to attack their building earlier on, or their AI messes up and they just stay in their base all day.
So reverse advice is needed: How do you beat many comps after succeeding on ladder?
On June 25 2022 14:10 namkraft wrote: I am around 1800 on ladder, 65% win-rate outside it, and I still (probably) can't beat 1v3 comp, without cheating using probe to attack their building earlier on, or their AI messes up and they just stay in their base all day.
So reverse advice is needed: How do you beat many comps after succeeding on ladder?
Make 9 drones then overlord. make 3 drones.send drone out at min 1:30 and make expansion. then when you reach 200 minerals make pool and then extractor. (all this without making drones) Now you gonna start droning . When the lair is done make spire instantly. Around minute 5:20 make 7-8 sunks.Then you make Mutalisk and counter attack 1 opponent and most likely kill him.But what you can do is weak him enough and then attack other opponent. In the mean time you decide if expand or go lurkers and hatchery inside your base + hive tech to defiler. I hope this helps. Sadly if there is one zerg and he does 4 pool u will be in troubles :D .
How to actually have more larva than pros while hitting the same timings in ZvT:
grab the 9th drone, hotkey it and mine 8 minerals with it, tell it to go to the natural 9 hatch 9 overlord extractor trick 11 pool + gas <- important, because you need to spawn a larva right as the lair is done so we're trying to hit a 3:00 lair start to sync up with larva production scout 16 lair 16 a pair of zerglings 18 overlord 18 hatchery 20 spend more larva at the main because you're about to get an extra lair larva 22 spire 21 gas at the natural zergling speed when you can afford it 24 ov 29 ov and stop making drones/lings and send a drone to the 3rd, make +1 upgrade, mutas, an overlord, and your third
comparison:
hatchery at usually like 1:16 and a 7 second larva block making it an effectively 1:23 hatchery and we don't get larva blocked after that 12 hatch is around 1:40 pool and gas would be similar timings to 12/12/12, but have one more larva at the cost of slightly slower 3rd hatch larva (in total still about one more)
the only downside is you have so much larva you can't afford zergling speed for a while unless you sacrifice spire timing
12 pool 11 gas (#12 drone makes gas at over 100 minerals) 10 hatch 11 send drones to gas by using the gather hotkey 11 lair at 2:34 17 overlord 17 spire at 3:37 <-- you spawned a larva, lair pops and gives you a second larva (do NOT try to click up at 2:33 as it will mean one less drone and getting drones on gas at the perfect timing actually might block you at 3 larvae) make a drone or lings at the lair because you got the extra larva 18 gas zergling speed 22 supply start saving for muta 1 overlord (usually at the natural because it has more larva)
whoaaa, i remember reading the first ones of these posts some years back when i was starting out with remastered, time truelly flies away. What a shame
On January 17 2022 22:54 iopq wrote: Here's a newer zergling pressure build that can transition to midgame, I first saw it done by Soma in a slower variation, but it's not good against 9 gate pressure because your zerglings are very slow, so I am following a more recent build he does
It should be used against Protosses that went gate expand, against forge expand you want to actually just drone because it won't work at this exact timing (they have a cannon up)
9 overlord cancel overlord, 9 hatchery 9 overlord 9 pool scout the Protoss and block his first zealot drone until 11, then save larva for zerglings 16 hatch at third 18 overlord
get gas when you want to get gas, you can transition to whatever you want and build as many zerglings as you want, it's very flexible
Note: if you see a fast probe, don't put the hatchery down and immediately get a pool and just play 9 overpool build order because it's forge expand which means he can just cannon rush your hatchery right away and even pros lose to this with fast hatchery
When you reach his base, don't try to run by, just kill his gateway and micro when he comes out to defend it, you can often surround and kill zealots when he's not careful - then he might have no zealots and no gateway
so if you get second scouted by Protoss it's more likely to be forge FE than anything else, so vs. a relatively fast scout (not first, you go overpool in that case) you would do this:
9 overlord cancel overlord, 9 hatchery 9 overlord 9 pool scout the Protoss drone until 13 third from the last drone that you made goes to make an expo 2:42 gas(lines up lair and larva perfectly) make a drone at expo (it already has two larvae) make a pair of lings in main (it already has two larvae) drone at expo (two larvae again) 16 overlord 3:30 lair
your lair is not SUPER fast, but the economy is basically as good as it gets because of the extra larva if you are short a few minerals, delay overlord to get the lair timing exactly
EPT
