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iopq
United States930 Posts
https://repmastered.icza.net/game/uCrmM1WXJy69i5botDKKaUjv2DoiHjSbYQQDsGbcC9w while the hatchery is faster, I lose like 30 minerals by delaying the drone so much which would not be paid back by the faster hatchery since we'd also delay the third hatchery eventually so in this case, the standard build is still the best, since we can't make the pool fast enough to get 3 pairs of lings at the same time without a larva block, and neither does it make sense to delay the drone for a long time | ||
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iopq
United States930 Posts
https://repmastered.icza.net/game/XGGD7ftdO9B08PR3MQpgBEAtqUoRUbIXMzzPJmr-tEU I compared it to a replay of Soulkey, he has a slightly faster Lair, but he gets the free larva a few seconds away from spawning the next one so it's optimized for perfect economy I should shave about 4 more seconds off the lair timing and it would be perfect | ||
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puppykiller
United States3128 Posts
If I was starting from scratch and wanted to get to the level I ended up in the past in a smoother, less agonizing way, I would first play through the campaign (to learn what the units do and how they move etc), then practice in offline environments for a rather long time (fighting computer opponents and playing micro maps), then eventually try fastest or BGH, and then seek low level 1v1 opponents using discord servers or so. Then at some point when I wanted a challenge I would finally set out on ladder to see what rank I could get after 100 games or so while trying to manage my expectations as best as possible. During all of this I would watch vods and test out unit compositions and strategies I saw in them (likely with a very loose degree of accuracy to what was actually being done). I would also dedicate as much time as I cared to spend to practicing the physical required mechanics of the game in offline environments. These would be things such as rapid macro cycles, pulling workers to mine, hotkeying units quickly and efficiently, the various types of micro needed (if I could find micro maps to practice on), and pushing 1a2a3a really fast etc. I think building this sort of muscle memory in an offline controlled environment is a lot easier than trying to develop it vs real human opponents. Around the time I started finally playing 1v1 against low level human opponent practice partners, I would probably start watching vods a little more closely while taking note of when and how players scouted each other. and what each player did based on the information they gained from scouting. I would also try to pay more attention to tactical manuevers players used to position their armies, or bait reactions from their opponents. It would also be at this point that I might try to teach myself some basic openings, and practice them until I could do the first few minutes of them with a high degree of accuracy. After this it would be a long phase of continuing to play games with my low level practice partner friends, while watching pro vods and spending as much time as I could in offline environments figuring out how I could train my hands to habitually perform various tasks with a great degree of rapidity. All this offline practice would make real matches feel mechanically less overwelming, which would help me clear my head to think about strategy. Things like, what I know about my opponent from the information I have gotten up to this point from scouting, and what sort of tactical manuevers could put me in a strong position. Also if I had a particularily difficult micro issue holding me back (i.e. muta micro) I would try to find an opponent who would be willing to save the game state just before that micro portion, so that I could practice it with them over and over again. I don't know exactly when I would try ladder, it would probably be based on whether I still felt like the rate that I was improving from my practice partners was meaningful or not. However as I shifted to ladder, I would reduce the amount of time I was doing offline mechanical practice by a degree, and replace it with a lot of replay study (of my own replays) in order to build greater insight on the variety of playstyles that I was coming up against, and a better awareness of the factors that were determing my losses. I would also try to make friends with people who have a similar style of analysis to me, and play the game in a way that I am interested in, and see if I could get them to watch my replays with me to give me some insight. I would probably prepare one opening for each matchup (as well as a vague midgame plan) to practice on ladder, and it probably wouldn't be a 4 pool to start. If someone realllly likes 4 pool and wants to start with that, I don't think it's a bad thing at all. However, if your doing it ONLY to feel good about wins, I do believe that it is a slippery slope too become too reliant on strategies that are weak against opponents who can easily hard counter you if they know how you play. You're better off getting your fix killing ai opponents or low level practice partners. | ||
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
To each his/her own of course, but I'm not sure about the need for practice against "lower level human opponents" (xD) or starting with Fastest/BGH. Some people really dread getting stomped but I would rather start laddering earlier and not worry too much about losing. Better get a feel for the real competition early if you want to get good. (That said: Not before you have decent mechanics, aka after at least a few hundred offline-games practicing those specifically. If you want to skip that and just play, go ahead, but weeding out those bad mechanics later will be a real drag) (0. Play the campaign if you want) 1. Learn all the shortcuts of your race AND what F2-F4 and the shift/ctrl/alt-keys do and how they're used (they're essential), and copy a pro's hotkey-setup 1.1 Henceforth always prioritize sticking to those hotkeys and mechanics over anything else, never ever use box-select/screen-scroll or use your mouse in any way if you don't have to. ("Become one with the keyboard") 2. Look up one good beginner build per matchup and practice the hell out of it offline (starting with a good worker split). This should include some kind of timing-push or attack that you want to end the game with (not just an opening). 3. When your replays don't look too bad anymore (workers/units standing still, build-order errors, resource-floating, missed timings), go ladder 4. Meanwhile keep watching progamers playing and compare what they do to what you do, and change your do-dos to how they do-do After that it's game-by-game learning from your mistakes, asking for advice or returning to offline-practice for specific things, taking breaks if you hit a wall, keep having fun | ||
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iopq
United States930 Posts
not everyone can do offline practice and find it exciting | ||
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IsraelWilliams
15 Posts
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iopq
United States930 Posts
9 hatch (1:12) 9 overlord 9 pool (1:49) 9 gas (1:59) it's blocking the larvae 14 seconds, so compared to 11 hatch (1:31) it's still better by 5 seconds and the larvae line up better for mutalisks so you get 7 mutas out a few seconds faster you can get zergling speed and everything you want at the same timing as 11 hatch, and the pool is ~8 seconds faster so you're safer against bunker rushes below I tested some other builds that are not as optimal, this is the only one that lines the larvae up optimally while offering some benefits over 11 hatch | ||
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iopq
United States930 Posts
9 gas, make a drone, cancel for 10/9 10 hatch (1:18) 9 overlord (1:27 still not larva blocked) larva block (1:41-1:52) 9 pool (1:47) 9 gas (1:57) we no longer have faster larva despite being blocked significantly less (because of how much gas trick delays your hatchery in the first place) we're getting extra seconds on the gas and pool that we don't need to line things up if we do everything one drone later everything is a bit late because if we 1:47 gas (without mining for a while, just to free up one drone) then our pool goes down at 2:00 which is 3 seconds too late | ||
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iopq
United States930 Posts
9 overlord (0:51) 9 hatch (1:21) 9th drone at 1:27 so not blocked 10 pool (1:51) 1:56 larva block 9 gas (1:57) 2:02 drone unblock 6 seconds blocked matches the 9 hatch, so maybe a bit more economical (the 9th drone mines a few minerals before going to make the hatchery so you have 9 drone saturation for a few seconds longer) But the 6 second blocks desyncs the larva timer so the click up is no longer optimized at 2:48 | ||
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iopq
United States930 Posts
gas trick 10 pool 9 gas 9 overlord drone when second hatch finishes this build is clever in that you can get a faster than 2:43 Lair and still get an extra larva (you delay yourself by like 20 seconds after 9 hatch so it roughly matches 11 hatch), but in my testing you can't get speed since you just don't have the minerals for it | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1765 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
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KameZerg
Sweden1765 Posts
On April 17 2025 07:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: I really like the idea that one should start with the most aggressive builds and move progressively towards macro builds. I think trying to get into huge macro games when you can’t keep up playing from one base is not the best way to learn. It sounds like you are speaking about total beginners, i'd recommend the campaign in this case and getting used to using hotkeys and grouping units. not stupid cheese builds otherwise low level ladder is a pretty friendly place for macro oriented players. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On April 26 2025 04:29 KameZerg wrote: It sounds like you are speaking about total beginners, i'd recommend the campaign in this case and getting used to using hotkeys and grouping units. not stupid cheese builds otherwise low level ladder is a pretty friendly place for macro oriented players. I don’t know about that. A lot of players start their journey copying build from the pros. The problem is that you need to have amazing mechanics and know the game very well to navigate a huge macro game where you sk terran from 8 barracks. You end up with people totally overwhelmed by their builds and totally unable to learn the things that really matter; aggression, timing, game sense. I believe that starting with simple and aggressive builds is much better. If you can’t macro from one base, you can’t macro from four. If i were to coach a terran starting TvP, i would start with varieties of 2 factory pushes, and early marines / bunker aggression. I have to say that this observation is also something in have seen in chess, where it’s much better to learn with very aggressive openings that are not totally sound and move towards positional play as you get better. You also notice the trajectory of many champions in both games, such as Magnus Carlsen or Flash, who start their journey as extremely aggressive or cheesy and mature into positional / macro oriented types. | ||
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iopq
United States930 Posts
On April 26 2025 04:29 KameZerg wrote: It sounds like you are speaking about total beginners, i'd recommend the campaign in this case and getting used to using hotkeys and grouping units. not stupid cheese builds otherwise low level ladder is a pretty friendly place for macro oriented players. it depends on whether you like it or not it doesn't matter what the most effective way to improve is, what you enjoy will make you improve faster since you will just put more time into it Almost everyone here started playing the campaign, very few people just went online and started grinding in 1998. But it's by far not the only way to improve In fact the most effective way to improve is to grind individual skills like mouse accuracy, builds, multi-tasking, etc. But if that discourages you from putting the time in, then it's not going to work. A person who puts in 100 hours playing however they like will improve more than a person doing 10 hours of the most effective practice | ||
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gamvipbiz
1 Post
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On April 30 2025 01:45 iopq wrote: it depends on whether you like it or not it doesn't matter what the most effective way to improve is, what you enjoy will make you improve faster since you will just put more time into it Almost everyone here started playing the campaign, very few people just went online and started grinding in 1998. But it's by far not the only way to improve In fact the most effective way to improve is to grind individual skills like mouse accuracy, builds, multi-tasking, etc. But if that discourages you from putting the time in, then it's not going to work. A person who puts in 100 hours playing however they like will improve more than a person doing 10 hours of the most effective practice I’m actually not sure about that. Again to take the chess analogy, i used to really practice mindful, read books, analyze my games. It made me reach 1800 elonin a couple of years. That was 10 years ago. Then i started to play a lot but not really studying at all, and I’ve played over 20000 blitz games. I’m still 1800 elo. I would argue that 10 hours of constrictive and conscious practice will do much, much more for you than 100 hours just playing without thought and method into it. All you will achieve is to reinforce bad habits. Them you have to do what brings you the most. I like playing chess and don’t care one bit about getting better, so playing mindlessly is perfect for me. | ||
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iopq
United States930 Posts
On May 03 2025 19:13 Biff The Understudy wrote: I’m actually not sure about that. Again to take the chess analogy, i used to really practice mindful, read books, analyze my games. It made me reach 1800 elonin a couple of years. That was 10 years ago. Then i started to play a lot but not really studying at all, and I’ve played over 20000 blitz games. I’m still 1800 elo. I would argue that 10 hours of constrictive and conscious practice will do much, much more for you than 100 hours just playing without thought and method into it. All you will achieve is to reinforce bad habits. Them you have to do what brings you the most. I like playing chess and don’t care one bit about getting better, so playing mindlessly is perfect for me. Pure strategy games like chess and go are different. When I first started playing go I played vs. a guy with 5000+ games and 1000 elo rating (this was on yahoo games). I beat him, even though it was like my tenth game. This led me on a grinding puzzles bend that increased my rating quickly (~4 kyu in a few months). I started beating the guy who was bragging about "understanding the game" because I just beat him in every fight we had on the board. In StarCraft, there's something to be said about just grinding the same build on ladder for thousands of games. Doing nothing to improve my speed I increased my APM from ~140 to ~200 (and I don't spam at the start of the game). This is impossible without just practicing getting into the habit of multitasking. You need to be good at ordering drones and making them mine while running zerglings around the Protoss base. You need to be good at ordering more mutalisks while picking off SCVs and marines. Of course, you can just NOT attempt to multitask and just play slowly every game. So of course, you need to practice in a productive way and attempt to do the correct thing, get absolutely wrecked by harass and do it better the next game until you run into a guy who does it even better. | ||
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Ze'ev
44 Posts
12 hatch 11 gas 10 pool just power workers for a bit and get lair sunken/few lings to chase off scv research lurker aspect, make 4-5 hydra when lurker aspect is finished get drop make lurkers, push out onto the map try to sneak a slow drop into the main, use other lurkers to watch terran natural expand, lurkers, overlord speed, hydra upgrades focus on hydra/lurker drops and shutting down terran expos edit: I learned broodwar from aggressive builds and just slowly added in more macro as I felt more confident in each build. For a while all I did was ling busts and things like that. ^ Even this build took me a while to do because its more complicated and can lead to longer games. Everyone learns differently, personally I found the aggression exciting and it taught me a lot of timings/tricks and forced me to learn how to adapt my gameplan. Since each game is fast I had a huge sample size to draw on which allowed me to create a mental map of how the game was played but also how I personally wanted to navigate the meta, and I found my own thing. I think trying new strategies and figuring them out is important for a lot of new players, so I commend this thread. Its not for everyone. | ||
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