Very new players shouldn't try to learn complicated builds, but instead they should have fun. Here I will present the simplest builds that even new players can execute.
4 pool
Good against Protoss and Terran
Pool at 4 supply (without making a drone). You can cancel a drone if you already made one, you won't need that larva
4/9 scout exactly at 128 minerals (when you have 120 minerals and the drone is bringing 8 more)
zerglings after that
make an extractor at 9/9 and 100 minerals, make a pair of lings and cancel the extractor (called extractor trick)
10/9 overlord
This build is viable even at the highest level. It's a hard counter to proxy 8 barracks. Sometimes you'll need to play a macro game after this, especially if the Protoss knows to abandon the forge and pylon and cannon inside the base.
5 pool
Can be good against every race
5/9 pool
6/9 scout with the last drone you make
zerglings from now on 9/9 extractor and a pair of zerglings, cancel extractor (this is called extractor trick)
10/9 overlord
if the opponent is Zerg, make a sunken in his base, but don't make it too obvious or too early
More economy oriented build, the only hard counter to 12 hatch in base. If you do it against Protoss with the intention to macro behind it, you can make a drone instead of a 4th pair of lings.
With these two builds, I was able to get around 1800 MMR, mostly losing to Zerg 9 pools. Of course, a new player wouldn't be able to macro out of a failed 4 pool, so a new player would have a lower MMR doing this build. But a new player still gains a lot by doing these builds - learning how to scout, micro, multi-task, follow a build. I will follow up with a more interesting build for the second part of the guide.
Im not sure, is the point of ladder to win few games and never win again? Or is to understand your current level and slowly build your skill? Playing 4/5 pools is a quick way to get bored of a game..
This 9 pool speedling build is the most common ZvZ build. It can be used to deny scouting to do weird all-ins vs. Terran and Protoss. Even while playing I kept running into the issue that I'm not that good at catching scouting workers! By playing this build I learned how to properly fan out my zerglings and catch scouting workers. It's very important they don't see the timing of your expansion, or your strategy is basically toast.
Can be effective vs. Terran and Protoss. Starts off with the same basic 9 pool speedling build to deny scouting. This is key, do not rush into the Protoss's perfectly timed cannons with your first 6 zerglings. Kill the probe and then pretend you're doing a run-by to force probes to block holes.
9/9 pool
9/9 gas
8/9 overlord
scout with drone if it's a 4 player map
9/9 save larva and money for zerlings
100 gas speed take one larva off gas
100 gas lair
put larva back on gas quickly, you need more gas than the muta build since you're not getting a second hatchery
drone to 16/17
hydralisk den (doesn't have to complete at lair)
overlord
ventral sacs (overlord drop upgrade)
lurker aspect
5 hydralisks
make 4 lurkers, leave one hydralisk to defend against a corsair
continue droning, you are only trying to do economic damage with your slow drop
Both the 1 hatch lurker and 1 hatch muta builds are countered by cannons in the back, but the Protoss cannot know it's coming instead of a zergling or hydra all-in. If you can kill one nexus, you can transition to macro and fan zerglings out to find ninja expansions.
With these two builds I was able to achieve around 1900 MMR. The better success rate of these builds is due to the fact that I was playing a more standard ZvZ instead of instantly losing to 9 pool builds.
On May 10 2018 19:23 kogeT wrote: Im not sure, is the point of ladder to win few games and never win again? Or is to understand your current level and slowly build your skill? Playing 4/5 pools is a quick way to get bored of a game..
of course, it would be boring to just do 4/5 pools
so that's why I started another account to do other 1 hatch all-ins - I didn't do speedling all-in, that's a bit too boring
I will cover 2 hatch play later - but to get started with the game, doing 1 hatch builds is enough, I think.
YES ladder IS a terrible place for a new player. POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT IS A MUST If you have all ins in your bag of builds you WILL WIN a few of them. Nobody should expect a new player to start with macro intensive builds.
Learn the easy then the hard. Not try to learn the hard and give up like so many before you!
AND EVEN if you lose with your 4 pool against a Probe ALL IN for example then you STILL learn a valuable lesson. Which is EXECUTION is always king.
5 pool is a good build that builds a lot of elementary skills. Things like scouting mattering a lot, controlling units, doing a build order properly, and even macro/multitask on a minimal scale are all tested. It's also good to test a player's improvisational skill in how they followup.
I don't think this is very good advice. I do think players should have fun, and not grind their face against a cheese grater trying to immediately ladder. I don't think they should 4pool every game.
I think new players should watch a lot of streams and VODs, play a bunch of different stuff like 1v1, 2v2, BGH, fastest map possible, zero clutter, hunters, bloodbath, etc., and play all three races for awhile. Like, play a whole bunch of games as Protoss, then play a bunch of games as Zerg, then play a bunch of games as Terran.
Also, 3v5 comp stomps. Or, if they're feeling bold, 2v6. All of these things will provide variety while teaching new players various things about the game, such as:
- Your teammates are cruel when you're new - Your teammates hate you even if you're good - How to mute your teammates - Find rare "nice" teammates - Make friends on StarCraft - Max out one's army on Fastest quickly by making a lot of production buildings and controlling them - How to win on Bloodbath without ever leaving your base - That computers are bulli - That competitive games are taken way too seriously
but most importantly:
- How to play the game and find out what they like. Maybe they'll like custom games best. Maybe they'll go "Hey, I like playing Terran" but then change their mind and go "I think I like Zerg best". Stuff like that.
On May 10 2018 22:02 ninazerg wrote: I don't think this is very good advice. I do think players should have fun, and not grind their face against a cheese grater trying to immediately ladder. I don't think they should 4pool every game.
No, sometimes they should 5 pool.
But to be serious, I think you should learn one race at a time. There's too much to learn at once.
One race, one build, one map, one opponent. This is probably the ideal practice scenario.
People who ladder would probably have a little bit of practice from the campaign or against the computer first, obviously. But that's why I'm giving 9 pool speed variants that work against every race (including random).
I wouldn't recommend anyone to pick up SC now. The game is too frustrating to play, too hard to learn enough to be able to find equal opponents on ladder.
I love the time I've spent with it, but..... life is easier than SC.
Better pick up pickup and bang chicks instead of being pwned by nerds.
On May 11 2018 08:41 niteReloaded wrote: I wouldn't recommend anyone to pick up SC now. The game is too frustrating to play, too hard to learn enough to be able to find equal opponents on ladder.
I love the time I've spent with it, but..... life is easier than SC.
Better pick up pickup and bang chicks instead of being pwned by nerds.
Yea or maybe you can always bang chicks and own nerds.
On May 11 2018 08:41 niteReloaded wrote: I wouldn't recommend anyone to pick up SC now. The game is too frustrating to play, too hard to learn enough to be able to find equal opponents on ladder.
I love the time I've spent with it, but..... life is easier than SC.
Better pick up pickup and bang chicks instead of being pwned by nerds.
There's 24 hours in the day, what are you going to do with the other 22-23 hours?
I will test out more aggressive builds on ladder - if my rating is higher being aggressive, then I will transition to turtle Zerg style and learn how to macro defending all game until I get a high rating with that too, but that's like step 10
On May 11 2018 08:41 niteReloaded wrote: I wouldn't recommend anyone to pick up SC now. The game is too frustrating to play, too hard to learn enough to be able to find equal opponents on ladder.
I love the time I've spent with it, but..... life is easier than SC.
Better pick up pickup and bang chicks instead of being pwned by nerds.
Come on. The game isn't that frustrating. You learn a build. Practice it alone on a macro map. Eventually get it right. Practice it in multi, realise things are so much harder against a person. Lose lots of games. Watch lots of replays. Learn and get better.
Then, when you get those wins they feel amazing. And you earnt every bit of that.
In terms of finding equal opponents. Be social. Join a clan or make friends and get as much advice and practice as you can. You will learn and get better whoever you play against and it's a lot more fun than random people on ladder.
New players please don't be discouraged. I'm on day 18 of really trying to get into bw. I have improved and actually won a few games now. You just need to have the right mindset to take the losses and learn from your mistakes. I can't see myself giving up anytime soon
Honestly I think iopq is on the right track. The game is too fast and complex for a lower end (D+ and lower) player to be trying to learn macro intensive builds for laddering.
Granted, it all depends on how you find fun. I came from SC2 first and I didn't care for all-ins or cheese so I went straight to macro builds, but I also had to sit down and grind out 300 PvT's in a row to learn how to make gateway units halfway decently. 90% of people aren't going to do that.
I think one thing to take away is that people should not downplay the viability of all-ins or cheese. They're a great way to learn certain fundamentals and everyone should be able to do a cheese or an all-in on command. They can especially help someone learn when to go for a kill.
On May 11 2018 08:41 niteReloaded wrote: I wouldn't recommend anyone to pick up SC now. The game is too frustrating to play, too hard to learn enough to be able to find equal opponents on ladder.
I love the time I've spent with it, but..... life is easier than SC.
Better pick up pickup and bang chicks instead of being pwned by nerds.
Yea or maybe you can always bang chicks and own nerds.
One would have to play a lottt to own nerds if he/she picks up BW now, wouldn't you say?
I know what you're saying, but it comes down to whether the person has the passion for BW. If they do, by all means, play.
I think the fact that RTSs are being made less and less (and easier mechanically) shows that BW wasn't ideal when it comes to catering to gamers' needs.
Games are supposed to be fun. And winning is fun. And the fastest way to winning in BW is grinding out mechanics, which only a small percentage of people will actually find fun imo. Somehow now the MMA analogy comes to my mind.. it's fun to watch UFC fights, but I don't wanna go in the streets asking people for 1v1 as I didn't practice my kicks a thousand times this week, and my jiu jitsu sucks.
heh. I realize I don't have a concise point.. maybe I should keep my opinion to myself if it's in a place like this where SC lovers gather.
Just do whatever you find fun. I think ladder is not the best way to start, as opposed to custom games or even 2v2 (3v3, 4v4 FFA, w/e floats your boat) Finding friends to play with is good when you begin because it ll motivate you to keep playing.
But if you do want to ladder right off the bat, then this thread is a good summary of some of the strategies you can do. Learn the maps first by playing vs the computer on each of them once at least (so you know where the bases are). May be 5 pool the computer too and see how it goes.
As long as you re having fun everything is fine, but ladder is a competitive place (duh!) so may be not the best to meet ppl.
On May 12 2018 01:00 ruypture wrote: Honestly I think iopq is on the right track. The game is too fast and complex for a lower end (D+ and lower) player to be trying to learn macro intensive builds for laddering.
Granted, it all depends on how you find fun. I came from SC2 first and I didn't care for all-ins or cheese so I went straight to macro builds, but I also had to sit down and grind out 300 PvT's in a row to learn how to make gateway units halfway decently. 90% of people aren't going to do that.
I think one thing to take away is that people should not downplay the viability of all-ins or cheese. They're a great way to learn certain fundamentals and everyone should be able to do a cheese or an all-in on command. They can especially help someone learn when to go for a kill.
You learn through practice, and if you don't practice something, you can't learn it.
Hmm. Thinking a long way back, for me it was... 1)campaign 2)playing against computer doing whatever until I could 1v3 them 3)noob pub games 4)finally ladder, mostly 2 base production focus though, rather than 1 base builds
So I'd rather recommend 3 hatch hydra plays and so on for beginners, than 5pool. Not worrying about specific builds much, simply working on mechanics and trying to have a lot of stuff. Hell, I was doing a lot of 3 hatch lair -> hydra/queens(for broodling on HTs) when I first started playing on PGT, and it was obviously a horrible build, but it still got plenty wins to progress. Eventually hitting a wall that could not be overcome with execution, learning proper builds, etc.
Just remember to have fun. Order of importance is pretty much: having fun -> mechanics -> builds and adjustments -> tactics.
I like this. Personally I learned the koget / ninazerg way, but let's not forget that people are different. This might work for some people. I suspect this is how eonzerg learned to play. He got pretty decent
And ffs, that 1 hatch lurker drop still kills me every time.
The "new player" syndrome is (surprise surprise) not only in broodwar!
So... considering what I learned in broodwar over the years and my recent learning experience in Heros of the storm and overwatch as a new player:
-Step 1. Play the game at the least competitive option first. This is to get a feel for what the game is, how it moves, what can happen in it (much longer in BW than in mosta games).
-Step 2. Play a few games in ladder and get owned. This is a step that tells you the brutal truth: You want to win, you gonna have to work because everyone has a head start over you. They already did steps 1 to 5.
-Step 3. Get online, read guides, practice offline builds, watch replays, play 3v5 crazy comps, etc. This is your accelerated course. This is what you need to "catch up" a bit to those that played the game longer than you.
-Step 4. Start to actually learn and enjoy the rewards of each thing you learn, while learning it painfully. Around 20% of the games become rewarding, 80% are still painful loses. You still have a lot to learn but you start to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
-Step 4a. This step is where most people stay forever. There is always something else to learn.
-Step 5. At this point, you know you win games because you learned enough, you lose games because you ignore things you know, and the game becomes enjoyable even if you lose. Because most of your games are good regardless of who wins. This is by far the most addictive part of this game, and the main reason I dont play it anymore. Its the only game where a loss can feel this good.
On May 11 2018 08:41 niteReloaded wrote: I wouldn't recommend anyone to pick up SC now. The game is too frustrating to play, too hard to learn enough to be able to find equal opponents on ladder.
I love the time I've spent with it, but..... life is easier than SC.
Better pick up pickup and bang chicks instead of being pwned by nerds.
Being bopped around on ladder should be a thing of the past with automatchmaking. You should drop down pretty quickly to 1000, 800, 500, or whatever skill a relatively new player is going to have.
This also isn't how I would get started. I guess it's how I would get started if I had to ladder, though I would probably consider an aggressive 2 hatch build since that at least forces a modicum of macro.
That said, you don't have to get started in ladder. Just practice doing 3 hatch muta into 4 base play against the PC. Step 1 is to hit your build order. Step 2 is to get to 200/200 without going over 1k minerals. Step 3 is to get to 200/200 while move a scout/army around the map consistently.
At worse, this can be accomplished in 2 or 3 weeks, probably faster. I'm guessing for most people this would take 10-30 hours depending on how quick they pick it up. At this point, you can hop on ladder and be at least a 1k player, more than enough to find reasonable games. You'll still have a hell of a lot to learn, but you'll have decent fundamentals that just need to be filled in by knowledge and developing comfort with game flow and unique situations.
There's a HUGE HUGE problem with doing that. It's the part where you have to play several thousand games to see all the all-ins you have to know how to beat.
You jump into a game and you get immediately bunker rushed. You don't know how to stack drones. You don't know how many to pull so you can make lings back at home when the pool is done. You end up losing your hatchery and leaving.
Next game you get two gate proxied and even though you went overpool he outmicroes you anyway because you engaged too early.
Next game he goes 9 pool speed and still kills your hatchery even though you "countered" it with 12 pool.
You didn't even get a chance to practice your build vs. a real opponent. That's why I suggest beginners start with something like 9p speed when they first start out. You easily crush people trying to all-in you quickly and have more satisfying games where you practice your own all-in.
When I have time, I will record some 2 hatch play starting with 12 pool or the like. Stay tuned.
On June 05 2018 17:05 iopq wrote: There's a HUGE HUGE problem with doing that. It's the part where you have to play several thousand games to see all the all-ins you have to know how to beat.
You jump into a game and you get immediately bunker rushed. You don't know how to stack drones. You don't know how many to pull so you can make lings back at home when the pool is done. You end up losing your hatchery and leaving.
Next game you get two gate proxied and even though you went overpool he outmicroes you anyway because you engaged too early.
Next game he goes 9 pool speed and still kills your hatchery even though you "countered" it with 12 pool.
You didn't even get a chance to practice your build vs. a real opponent. That's why I suggest beginners start with something like 9p speed when they first start out. You easily crush people trying to all-in you quickly and have more satisfying games where you practice your own all-in.
When I have time, I will record some 2 hatch play starting with 12 pool or the like. Stay tuned.
Those are all very real risks and it happens a lot so I think that s why several people recommended to start with team games/ums so you get to meet people and play in a more relaxed environment (or not, sometimes ppl get really serious in those modes too). At any any case if somebody here recently went through the experience with sc:r it d be great to get some sort of feedback!
On June 05 2018 17:05 iopq wrote: There's a HUGE HUGE problem with doing that. It's the part where you have to play several thousand games to see all the all-ins you have to know how to beat.
You jump into a game and you get immediately bunker rushed. You don't know how to stack drones. You don't know how many to pull so you can make lings back at home when the pool is done. You end up losing your hatchery and leaving.
Next game you get two gate proxied and even though you went overpool he outmicroes you anyway because you engaged too early.
Next game he goes 9 pool speed and still kills your hatchery even though you "countered" it with 12 pool.
You didn't even get a chance to practice your build vs. a real opponent. That's why I suggest beginners start with something like 9p speed when they first start out. You easily crush people trying to all-in you quickly and have more satisfying games where you practice your own all-in.
When I have time, I will record some 2 hatch play starting with 12 pool or the like. Stay tuned.
You're going to have to do this at some point anyway.
I wouldn't necessarily argue against doing some allins when you first start on ladder to develop a little actual micro against other people...but I would still play the standard build orders against PC first until you can do what I was talking about. Then move to allins. You'll actually be able to macro while doing things and have competent mechanics, which makes the game vastly more satisfying regardless of what build you're doing.
I would say people learn best at what they like, and for some players they are going to enjoy doing these kind of rushes, and, will have to branch off at the times they fail to kill, or become repetive. i.e player grows when and to what degree they want, and in what way they want. Its helpful if people find these simple concepts enjoyable, which I imagine there is a demographic for it...I learned the game through cheeses, not cookie cutter macro.
I mean, I started out with campaign, then computer stomps and then custom games etc. but that never taught me how to properly 1v1 in a ladder, it's just different.
SC has sooooo many variables happening all at once, learning an easy build is a good way to understand how the game is played. comp stomps don't have the same psychological effect either, where you know the CPU is set in it's ways and is predictable, humans aren't. There's also such thing as ladder anxiety, many players avoid ladder because they dont have something easy to try and lose focus, get nervous, etc.
On July 01 2018 12:04 GGzerG wrote: No one is going to learn anything or improve with guides like this lol
yes you will, it will teach you how to execute a basic build order and how to master it through repetition and will boost your confidence at executing harder builds. It's a stepping stone.
On July 03 2018 13:02 funnybananaman wrote: If you want good advice you shouldn’t listen to iopq or any of his friends. He is a trash player doesn’t even know the basics of zerg
User was temp banned for this post.
If that was true he would have never made it anywhere in this game, which I know he has made great strides since I first saw him play.
The advice is very much flawed, but not entirely bad. Mixing and knowing these aggressive builds helps better manage vs players who go with the extreme greedy styles of play.
I glanced over the guide and it's not bad. IMO, someone new to the game shouldn't jump into ladder. Find someone else who's new and learn the game together. 1v1 etc... will all help you learn greatly since you are playing the game against someone of your own skill level. Ideally, it's in a matchup that you enjoy so that you can keep spamming games together.
For me, what I find helped greatly was the above and maintaining awareness during the game. In my better macro games, I've kept a close watch on my supply count, resources as well as unit production despite trying to do a lot of other things. Granted, I don't expect a newbie to be able to do all that off the bat, but the game is extremely rewarded once you just get a small grasp of what is possible.
You may never be able to macro like Flash, but so long as the opponent on the other end is someone of a similar skill set, you'll have a blast and improve over time!
On July 10 2018 01:12 BigFan wrote: I glanced over the guide and it's not bad.
what guide? There are random build orders, no context and the sentence "I reached X MMR with it". I could also post "I reached 1800 MMR after an eight year break without remembering any builds", would neither be a lie nor would it be good advice. Doing random strats in order to boost your rating isn't helping anyone if you actually want to learn. This has no structure and no structure means chaos.
On July 10 2018 01:12 BigFan wrote: I glanced over the guide and it's not bad.
what guide? There are random build orders, no context and the sentence "I reached X MMR with it". I could also post "I reached 1800 MMR after an eight year break without remembering any builds", would neither be a lie nor would it be good advice. Doing random strats in order to boost your rating isn't helping anyone if you actually want to learn. This has no structure and no structure means chaos.
I'm firmly in the camp of you need to focus on actually playing the game as you see fit. Your mechanics will improve as you play if you're having fun and simpler builds are easier to pull off. Keep in mind that nowhere did I say these are good builds, but at least they are basic enough.
On July 10 2018 01:12 BigFan wrote: I glanced over the guide and it's not bad.
what guide? There are random build orders, no context and the sentence "I reached X MMR with it". I could also post "I reached 1800 MMR after an eight year break without remembering any builds", would neither be a lie nor would it be good advice. Doing random strats in order to boost your rating isn't helping anyone if you actually want to learn. This has no structure and no structure means chaos.
I'm firmly in the camp of you need to focus on actually playing the game as you see fit. Your mechanics will improve as you play if you're having fun and simpler builds are easier to pull off. Keep in mind that nowhere did I say these are good builds, but at least they are basic enough.
Therefore my main criticism would be "no context". If you read this as beginner and don't know much, it seems as if these builds only would allow you to really progress in the game, while I seriously doubt that. Granted, mixing in some of the builds does a lot of good, more than just brainless repetition of macro oriented strategies. Yet, if you're only focussing on builds that end the game within 15 minutes, there's more than a real danger to end up becoming a one trick pony with no skill at all.
There's two different kind of players that struggle with what's caused by the same problem, but has two seperate manifestation:
1) The one trick pony, that only knows how to end games early and loses to any solid player. Usually that happened once you reached C- shortly before or after the SCII Beta on ICC, sometimes even before. After this point, no more progression whatsoever, or only slow, cause half of that population has to learn the very core of the game from square one. And that is frustrating as hell. Some outliers achieved higher ranks by some alternation of the method (using more subtle all-ins), but usually no further than a low C+ at best.
2) The mechanic monster, that only progresses slowly at first, then a bit faster until they get stuck. Usually the kind of player that only praises 'Korean' strategies (whatever those might be), but that never learned to look at strategies from different angles.
To not become either one of those types it really helps to do be as versatile as possible. However, the OP never supplied any information as to why or what he thinks about the builds. As is, this "Guide" (it's not a guide, just build orders) seems to say: Cheese and that's better than whatever else might be possible. And that's objectively speaking a horrifying suggestion.
The thing is, ZvZ is usually one or two hatch builds. You need to know how to do a 9 pool, 12 pool, or 12 hatch if you want to play ladder.
So even if what you're doing in other match-ups is not viable at high levels (but two hatch muta is actually viable at the highest levels), you still learn how to do those ZvZ builds.
I'm simplifying it on purpose. To do three hatch muta you actually have exact timings for lurkers, hive, defiler den, nydus, evolution chambers. That's preset timings well into 70 supply, where if you don't get everything out in time you instantly lose your third or natural.
Five hatch hydra is preset for the first nine minutes, where you get up to 80 supply or so.
Of course it branches if your opponent is not playing standard, but on ladder you'll have enough games where your opponent does the exact standard timings for everything so you need to learn the exact build or you just lose. What's that? Your hydras are not on the ramp when lurker upgrade is done? Say goodbye to your third.
I could give you the exact supply by supply build, but it's already on liquipedia with some details omitted. But it's also not necessary for beginners. You will play much more efficiently with a low econ build. If I told beginners how to play far third Zerg style in ZvP, they would need to learn about a thousand Protoss all-ins before getting a single win from it. But it wouldn't feel that great either because when the MMR drops that much you get people who go one base carrier or something - basically you don't get to practice vs. standard builds.
By getting people up above 1500 we actually get games where people can defend with some skill, so we work on build execution, scouting, micro, macro. It still takes some multitasking skills to make more mutas when going 2 hatch muta. Those skills from microing two hatch muta carry over to three hatch muta. You just need to learn new build. Starting with three hatch muta will just get you killed as a beginner.
This is very good topic. It's something I'm struggling with as well.
On one hand as Day9 puts it there's no bad strategies or cheese strategies. If something works for you go for it. At the same time he's saying that playing long macro games is way better for you than playing all-ins. You learn so much more after each macro game than you do with all-in build. So why bother with all-ins to get wins if you cripple yourself in the long run?
This is really hard and I could not find a simple answer for that. I try to do solid builds and they rarely work coz I'm very bad and not sure how many years it might take for me to hit all those timings, even against PC. That's from the point of 1300 MMR player and below. Sometimes I just say fuck it and do a bunch of 9 pool speeds or 4 pools or 3 hatch ling all-ins and they work way better at my level, but I feel like that's an unfair thing to do. There's something wrong and unstable about it. It's a hard thing to accept that if you get scouted you lose to a decent player.
Oh here's a nice example. Yesterday on CPL stream I saw two tier 3 players playing ZvP. Zerg was doing solid builds, had APM above 200 all the time and was able to beat 70 APM protoss 1 base tech no problem. Better control, better macro. You would think Z takes 2:0 no problem. Next game that Protoss player places two proxy gates in the middle of the map. No economy behind, two gate zealot rush. Zerg could not defend it. I see the struggle, I see the frustration and I see gg from zerg eventually. This makes it 1:1. Third game, Protoss does the exact same thing - two gate zealots, zerg scouts and knows it's the same thing, and guess what? Still dies and could not defend it. I felt sorry for him/her. It's a strange feeling, like you trying to fight your opponent straight but get hit between the balls instead, or your opp just shoots you dead.
It was clear to me that at low level it's way harder to defend proxy two gates as a zerg player than to go for proxy gates as a protoss player.
Earlier I asked my teammate to go two gates vs me each game for like 5 times in a row (in-base two gate, not even proxy) and I died to that every single time knowing that it's gonna be two gate. So yeah, clearly some builds are easier than the others.
We see only high level EU and Korean scene mostly, those builds are always ridiculed and made fun of, but if you go lower than that - there's where those builds prevail. I bet any low-level protoss player know how hard is to go forge expand and not die to lings or hydras. You don't see a proper defense very often coz in Korea they defend most of this shit with PURE MICRO. You see three zealots come across the map you think - how stupid the protoss player is? Zerg can easily defend that with just drones and smidge of lings. Zerg defends no problem. When those same 3 zealots come to your base on ladder you die instantly. All your lings die, all your drones, die. You don't see a sunken response to that from Korean player, you don't see a lot of lings being made coz they defend with JUST ENOUGH units and no more than that. If you only watch pro streams and ASL you will be frustrated of why you die to all kinds of shit and why you can't do a single build they are doing well. It's not on the surface, it's not obvious and you don't see any real examples.
I'm glad I discovered lots of CPL streams. I advice all the new players to watch them where all the juicy stuff happens, especially at lower "tiers". This might get you thinking and reconsider your priorities. I seriously think it's possible to practice a solid Korean build for many years and get nowhere. Is it better for you in the long run? Would you grow faster? I'm not sure. Still doubting this theory.
That's the thing, you can't run before you know how to walk. Everyone who is already decent at the game is saying how good it is to play macro games. But it's good when you're already comfortable with the basics.
It's like people who have spent a few years learning a language that would recommend practice talking to a person as the best thing you can do to learn. But if you don't know a word, you can't learn from it since you don't understand it.
If you don't understand the game, you won't know why you are losing except "I should have macroed/microed better" which is useless to know. You can always macro or micro better. The way to learn this is you constantly put yourself under pressure. When you do all in builds you see yourself losing or winning based on a split second. It's a cannon finishing just in time, it's a zealot popping out before you kill the pylon. It's a probe getting into your base to see the hydra den. Each moment, each mistake is evident.
The next step after doing all in builds is getting a friend to all in you over and over again until you can beat it. Same concept, you will never leave your hatchery without an overlord over it if you just got bunker rushed one hundred times in a row. You WILL hotkey a mineral location to F3 and you WILL drill to it after seeing how drones cannot go through SCVs ten times in a row. Playing short games like that will give you immediate feedback.
Once you get two gated you will literally just throw down three sunken colonies in your natural. Because you've seen some shit. They will cancel two of them, maybe, but one will get up and you'll hold. The next step is seeing that the Protoss is going a slower two gate build from his natural and you only need one sunken. You need to adapt correctly, but you can't do it if you don't see the most all in variation first. If you just okay ladder and see two gate from inside the base with a light pressure, you'll underestimate two gate builds.
Bottom line: you first need to figure out the most all in crazy builds before you can see why Zerg plays overpool in ZvP, but 12 hatch in ZvT. You need to test 12 nex vs. overpool, 5 pool vs. 12 pool, etc.
I realized I didn't know how 12 pool did vs. 5 pool. But after practice, I figured out that the only way to lose is to lose your spawning pool. I no longer seal my base off with my spawning pool, I always leave a space for a drone drill between the pool and gas. Then I cancel my hatchery and make two sunkens in my base. I don't care that I only have like 8 drones left, I know the exact timing for a 5 pool so I can just win with one hatchery.
Once you know how those extreme situations play out, you can just play it safe. Before that, you just don't have any idea how to defend this crap. Macro games are a waste of time if you just lose right away. Even if you learn something, you'll get frustrated with the game. So you first must have a fire lit under your ass to tech or make defences right on time. Because you must know the consequences of being late. I don't even have a high apm. Some people probably harass with mutas while macroing. But what am I doing? I'm really just sending my mutas away while making sure I'm making that queen's nest in the exact second I have 100 gas. I will hold the three tank push while the 300 apm player will get his defiler irradiated a few seconds before consume is done.
I will probably get rank S with around 150 APM based on just crisp timing and tight builds. That's the point I'm trying to make.
On September 19 2018 19:42 QuadroX wrote: I'm glad I discovered lots of CPL streams. I advice all the new players to watch them where all the juicy stuff happens, especially at lower "tiers". This might get you thinking and reconsider your priorities. I seriously think it's possible to practice a solid Korean build for many years and get nowhere. Is it better for you in the long run? Would you grow faster? I'm not sure. Still doubting this theory.
I think that 20 years of SC history is evidence enough.
It only works if you don't quit because you're no longer motivated. There is a survivorship bias in looking at what good people do, because they are the most motivated.
If you took a few casual players, the best way to get them all good at the game is to start with fun custom games. The last thing you want is to force a newer player to drill builds in single player over and over. Not only will they dislike it, they won't understand how to respond to aggression or greedy opponents.
On September 20 2018 07:36 iopq wrote: It only works if you don't quit because you're no longer motivated. There is a survivorship bias in looking at what good people do, because they are the most motivated.
If you took a few casual players, the best way to get them all good at the game is to start with fun custom games. The last thing you want is to force a newer player to drill builds in single player over and over. Not only will they dislike it, they won't understand how to respond to aggression or greedy opponents.
Definitely agree with the first half. Not so much the second.
I think if a person wants to "git gud" then it is important to actually put in the effort and learn BOs, grind them over and over to learn the interactions, etc. Then, when you get bored or plateau and get frustrated, that's when you can switch to goofing around in 3v3 Hunters or take a break from the game. I just think it's nonsense to say that the "theory" of learning build orders and grinding them for years doesn't make people better. Of course, there is more to it than that, such as analyzing replays and watching progamers, but I would argue that playing through the BO hundreds of times is the most key aspect of improvement. If you don't want to do that, then don't - but don't expect to improve much either at standard 1v1 IMO (edit: past a certain point ofc).
so here I try to go over 3 hatch all-in builds, they're honestly pretty self-explanatory
start with a normal build, but then cut drones and go all-in - I think I go with about 22 drones for 3 hatch hydra so I can throw down a fourth hatchery earlier and transition to a macro game (or just kill the opponent anyway)
I do 11 hatch 10 pool scout 10 gas in ZvZ and then throw down a sunken and get lair before speed if my opponent is going 9 pool, and 3 hatch ling all-in if they don't do this
I start with 3 hatch muta and I can still attack with this if my opponent doesn't have a lot of units instead of taking a third
The hardest part is not dying before you get to the point where you can actually pull off the build - I'm going 12 hatch vs. Terran and overpool vs. Protoss which can still die to aggressive builds
This assumes you scout forge FE, scout corsair first (standard build, nothing weird)
9 overlord 9 pool scout after pool hide drone behind minerals so if you're scouted second you can let the probe in your base and make a hatchery unharassed 11 hatchery 1 pair of lings if you see his probe at a normal timing 14 gas but don't get it right away, use a new drone popping out at around 150 minerals to make the gas 14 hatchery 16 lair 18 speed start slowly trickling out zerglings at a certain point, Protoss will start to send out zealots to harass 25 spire 24 overlord 27 hatchery 32 hatchery 32 overlord 35 evo, den, gas 2 pairs of scourge overlord speed 40something supply make hydra (6 on gas + 1 drone per mineral + whatever other units you have)
at 9:00 you can have +1, overlord speed, hydra speed and range more than 85 supply of hydra/ling if neither players lost any units
it features a computer that does nothing - you still get to practice scouting it, but it won't attack you to interrupt your build since you can play this in single player you can also practice splitting with this by constantly restarting the game
I guess you save at 9 supply and load from that point, it will save you time
Here is the build order for when you don't see a fast scout and you don't scout them fast - you need to build 3 pairs of lings just in case. Or the opposite, the Protoss scouts you first, puts a pylon in your nat and doesn't cancel.
it either means they scouted you first or they went gate first build (gate expo or two gate) follow this build if they in fact scouted you last and went forge expand
9 pool overlord scout after pool 11 hatch 10 three pairs of lings and run straight to the Protoss base to make him block his extrance (or run by if he doesn't, don't kill the cannon unless you have more lings on the way) 15 gas (at 150 minerals) 14 hatch 16 lair 16 overlord 18 speed 24 spire 24 overlord trickle out lings now, Protoss can move out with zealots 27 hatch 32 hatch (if you can afford it without floating larva, push it back if you need to spend larva) 32 overlord two pairs of scourge 35 den evo gas
this build slows your spire timing down, slows your further hatcheries down, making your total supply lower at the same 9 minute mark
but if you can get 3-4 lings into the Protoss base and force him to pull probes to chase your lings, you will win that exchange unless you don't macro while moving your lings
This is such a lol thread. Starts out as a guide for beginner zergs and then is just a bunch of videos of 4 and 5 pooling. Any noob can do a 4 pool but it takes more intelligence to learn the macro mid games and other fundamentals of Starcraft. I doubt the strategy’s you’re “teaching” are ones anybody doesn’t know. U should do videos teachings 3 hatch muta / lurker/ hive play not to mention all of zvp.
On October 12 2018 11:23 Yanokabo wrote: This is such a lol thread. Starts out as a guide for beginner zergs and then is just a bunch of videos of 4 and 5 pooling. Any noob can do a 4 pool but it takes more intelligence to learn the macro mid games and other fundamentals of Starcraft. I doubt the strategy’s you’re “teaching” are ones anybody doesn’t know. U should do videos teachings 3 hatch muta / lurker/ hive play not to mention all of zvp.
You're probably reading the wrong thread cause there's a lot of info for intermediate players here. Literally the post above yours talks about ZvP mid-game lmao.
How to do 3 hatch muta into lurker egg block (vs. 1 rax expand into bio builds) on CB and other slightly bigger maps
9 overlord 12 hatch scout 13 pool 13 hatch 12 gas 100% pool one pair of lings 16 overlord 18 lair 100 gas speed and second extractor at close to the same time trickle out a few lings or make a sunken 24 overlord 100% lair spire 33 supply overlordx3 hotkey 9 larva before spire is done to your muta hotkey and rally all hatcheries forward to save time 11 muta, overlord creep colonies (morph when you need them) 50 gas lurker den hotkey so you can research lurker aspect while controlling muta 100 gas queen's nest third base when hydra den is done, lurker aspect and 3 hydras, run 3 hydras directly to the third before lurker aspect is done when queen's nest is done, hive (you should have 100 gas) more hydras for lurkers to protect the main a bit of scourge to protect from drops/science vessels 100% hive nydus in natural to link with third, defiler den, crackling upgrade 2x evolution chambers and research +1 melee/+1 carapace once done 100% defiler den consume first 68% consume at least 2 defilers 100% consume plague upgrade hatchery spam since now you're getting a decent mineral income eat zerglings and push out to take your fourth base ultralisk den when you can afford it, usually around the time 1/1 gets done so you can get 2/2 started and ultra upgrades at the same time to push out with 4/2
whether you use drops, queens, or transition back to hydra/lurker/defiler depends on the situation if you want to use drops early, you can start overlord speed after 1/1 is started since that's the point where you can spare some gas if Terran is transitioning to mech
these timings of course assume Terran didn't do heavy damage to you or force you to spam a lot of units
Just one thing: Maybe you could elaborate a bit about droning, from the 33 supply overlords/11 mutas onward. Just some benchmark numbers at different points of your build-order.
funny that you posted 1 hatch lurker drop vs protoss but not 1 hatch lurker variations against terran? vastly more effective to go 1 hatch against a terran than a protoss.
On October 30 2018 17:16 Highgamer wrote: Nice, detailed build-order, great work iopq.
Just one thing: Maybe you could elaborate a bit about droning, from the 33 supply overlords/11 mutas onward. Just some benchmark numbers at different points of your build-order.
Or do Zergs not drone any more after 33?
it depends on what your opponent is doing and how you decide to counter it and even map/spawns
let's say your opponent went HARD 5 rax pressure and he's close spawns to you in FS - you may need a ton of zerglings to actually get your third up
if they have 3 rax factory you should drone hard and get +1 carapace before hive and mass lurkers
you really don't know if they're going 2 rax most of the time, you just see the CC going up and you know they went 1 rax expand
you literally just have to make infinity sunkens while they're running to your base and hope your lings can delay (make them ball up while walking instead of just stim running inside your naked base)
There's actually no way to know they're doing 2 rax until you have to already spam sunkens since it's really hard to get a scout in and they can avoid making a scanner in the natural if you have an overlord watching it
Once they scan you, stim and start running towards your naked base it's actually somewhat hard to hold if you're being greedy so I always trickle out lings to give myself a chance to put up sunkens in time
if I'm going to be greedy then I'd have one sunken up and just a pair of lings and then a second colony building at like 4:20 but in any case you need 3-4 if you don't have lings so the exact build won't be followed
Almost nobody goes 2 rax. It’s either 1-1-1 or rax fe it factory fe and 2 rax is only good for defending a allin or a 5 pool. Flash took a game off effort because effort was allining very extremely with 2 hatch muta and 9 pool. If effort had scouted what flash was doing it wouldn’t have worked.
Yanokabo, I think with "2 rax" he meant 1rax FE into 2nd rax academy to make a small pre-muta-push - which indeed, like Cryoc hinted, can win many games outright if Zerg doesn't build earlier sunkens + lings in time.
See this line:
On October 31 2018 09:32 iopq wrote: you really don't know if they're going 2 rax most of the time, you just see the CC going up and you know they went 1 rax expand
I thought he meant: You don't know if they build a 2nd rax after the CC (for pre-muta-push) or an ebay (for +1 and 5rax), you just see the CC going up and know that they started with 1rax expo (which could lead to both things).
This 2 (or 3)rax push is also very flexible, you can move out sooner or later, with 8/10/12 marines and 1-3 medic, maybe a firebat, depending on how many lings you see.
That's exactly right, when you don't see a second CC going up you know they are doing SOMETHING like tech or two rax no expand.
I'm talking about normal timing CC into second barracks before refinery. Sometimes you get a huge 24 marine 4 medic push right before mutas are out (4 barracks before academy) that aims to just win even if there are 4 sunkens (you literally need 5 or more to be safe against it)
but in any case you just can't know when they hit you with something, so you can't adjust your build until OMG OMG OMG build sunkens
You can always scout the marine count once you get speed, if they went 2 rax you will see more marines before medics are out. Terrans might try to hide marine count but this should be rare, especially on ladder.
Also, zergs will get an evo in front of the sunkens when the stim timing arrives which buys some precious seconds until the sunkens are finished.
I don't think 4 and 5 pool is the answer to getting started. I would start with learning a couple standard openings, and go from there. (12 hatch -> 3 hatch muta or lurker vs T, Overpool -> 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra vs. P etc.)
You can have a very long very philosophical discussion about how you should approach and play SC BW in 2018, especially as a beginner. The big question is 'why do we even play'? I would say that if you are in college, don't play video games but enjoy social life. If you are pre-college and if it would be 2008, yeah maybe consider trying to become the best player you can. But if you are post-college in 2018, you should play purely for fun.
I used to have this very self-improvement approach to playing SC and I tried to do long macro game builds and strategies every game, playing T. I only had very few games that were actually close where I felt I played well and won. Most games I would lose either because they were much better or because of stupid shenanigans where I failed to stop which I should reasonably be able to stop. And most games I won were just a walkover.
I think playing some cheese build over and over really narrows down the type of game you play. It gives you control over what happens. I think playing cheese 1vs1 should be better than playing 3vs3 BGH. BHG are such a clusterfuck, I don't really know why that would be fun (except if you play with friends or something). Playing the campaign? Come on? You don't need to play the campaign to learn the units or the tech tree.
If you don't need to have fun and if you want to become the best player in the shortest amount of time, yeah you can do multitask ums over and over. Learn builds. Do micro specific ums maps. And then play vs specific practice partners. But who really wants to do that?
If you do 12 hatch muta vs T then you already have a strategy with so many angles. Why are you doing it in the first place? To secure a third gas and get defiler tech. So you actually know why you are doing it and how to counter several things the T can try to do. Yeah, you can blindly copy that high level play build, and take it from there. But why? Strategically it makes no sense. You aren't realistically getting to a point where a proper 3 hatch play actually is needed for your play. And if it is either playing the campaign or copying a standard long game macro build from high level play, why are we comparing two vastly different things?
I don't know about 4/5 pool, but playing the game in a way that rediscovers the way top players play today kind of makes sense. Start with a 9 pool with speed. When you can execute it properly but it stops working, then ask yourself why and come up with an alternative. For example 2 hatch lurkers with drop.
I think that makes a lot more sense and actually learns you about logical strategies than just copying some standard pro player build and not really understanding what is happening because your actual games look completely different from pro games with the same build.
Well i switched factions to protoss but I won a lot of games by:
ZvZ go 12 pool no gas and make four sunkens in your expo and 3-4 spores in your bases and attack him with about the 2000 gas you have saved up as mutas sounds weird but it works at this rank
ZvP go 12 pool with gas and pump nothing but lings after you got your basic drones then rally 12 speedlings (you take your drones off gass at 100) to the outside of his base and make a proxy hatch at a base near his like hidden i mean and rally back to this point which you hotkey on f4, then runby with 12 lings however you can, if you can't you lose, but it usually gets about 5-6 lings in then just run those lings around harrassing a bit, then you take your reinforcing 24 lings outside his base while his zealot fruitlessly chases your in base lings then attack with those inbase lings and your 24 outside zerglings and pounces on his cannons and kill his whole expo this is a rush build don't feel like getting into july style but you can watch my tutorial it's called july's zvp or something on youtube
ZvT Go 10 hatch for avoiding rushes and just go mass muta and work on your muta micro and don't get owned by 1/1/1 sorry i'm not actually that good but I got to B rank with this kind of stuff
On November 02 2018 23:30 ortseam wrote: You can always scout the marine count once you get speed, if they went 2 rax you will see more marines before medics are out. Terrans might try to hide marine count but this should be rare, especially on ladder.
Also, zergs will get an evo in front of the sunkens when the stim timing arrives which buys some precious seconds until the sunkens are finished.
once you see the medics they're running to your base already, it doesn't help
I don't actually know the correct marine counts at every point in the game either, but maybe I should check out some replays and count
then Terran starts to make medics with the fast +1 build, but medics take a few seconds longer so if you see more than 9-10 marines or medics before 5 minutes, it's not +1 5 rax
assuming normal CC timing a second barracks shouldn't be ready before 4:15, so there shouldn't be a difference in the count until 4:30
Also note that these are standard 2 rax timings, Terran can cut SCVs and hit even faster. Example VOD: Sharp vs Soulkey 18 rax/20 gas, 2nd rax finished at 3:50, academy finished at 4:30
On November 08 2018 04:39 ortseam wrote: Also note that these are standard 2 rax timings, Terran can cut SCVs and hit even faster. Example VOD: Sharp vs Soulkey 18 rax/20 gas, 2nd rax finished at 3:50, academy finished at 4:30
That's right, so it's even more obvious that it's expand 2 rax, since in expand 2 rax you can cut SCVs to make more marines faster
Also note CC timing, it should be between 2:30 and 2:45 depending on how fast the Terran scouts you. If he scouts you last and ends up making a marine and the CC at 17, it should be later than if he scouts you first and decides to skip the marine for a 16 CC
if you see it later than 3:00 something is up for sure
But look in that VOD, extra marines are being hidden because there are a few in the front pushing lings away, there's no way to count the two rax pressure until he already starts running out right before the 6 minute mark
I totally disagree with OP and would never attempt to do 4-5 pools as a beginner. Will not be enjoyable and will not build any foundation on how the game works.
I think i’d go like 11 pool no gas into expand. Safe and wont lose straight up to most rushes
On December 26 2018 03:55 crbox wrote: I totally disagree with OP and would never attempt to do 4-5 pools as a beginner. Will not be enjoyable and will not build any foundation on how the game works.
I think i’d go like 11 pool no gas into expand. Safe and wont lose straight up to most rushes
Maybe from a beginner that has played other RTS or Dota
not from the standpoint of someone who may not have even good mouse accuracy skills, much less the ability follow a build order at fastest speed (yes, there are people who can't even get to 9 overlord without fail splitting, having idle drones, etc.)
if you can do 5 pool and make zerglings WHILE you micro them inside of someone's base that part of the guide is not for you, it's for absolute beginners, move on to the 2/3 hatch builds
korean amateur ZeLoT literally 4pools every matchup to 2000mmr every season before he do his "normal" strats (he peaks 2600+mmr). so yeah its legit. familiarising yourself with cheese also gives you better understanding of how to counter it when you face one yourself.
I agree with a lot of what Nina said at the beginning of the thread. I have been a new Z climbing out of F rank and hovering ever close to D. I don't get a lot of time to play on ladder anymore because of work, so I usually dedicate a few hours on the weekend to solid laddering and practice when I can on weekdays.
One thing that has definitely has merit is the idea of rushing to get wins on ladder. It can feel like prison when you're getting rolled by 2 gate or 5 rax as a new Zerg, and the temptation to simply give up is strong. I would recommend whipping out a 4 pool when you are bored or just want to wreck a Terran's day. To practice Zerg rushing more effectively I would recommend you learn a 9 pool speed all-in build and get the timings down perfectly. Control your first six lings in two groups of three and use the fourth pair to kill the scout. For ZvP I think you are better off practicing overpool or 12 hatch.
What I would strongly suggest if you want to have fun is to practice a few builds at a time, but focus on one per day per race when you are putting in practice. I typically practice a rush-oriented build against one race and macro-oriented towards the others. For example, I will straight up 9 pool speed every Terran for a week at times while. Some weeks I practice Crazy Zerg quick 3 hatch against Terran (look this up, it's a great way to have fun and beat Terran without miserably flailing your mutas into death) but always 9 pool ZvZ. It is true that this hurts my consistency when I come back from days off, but I have fun on the ladder and that's what being a new player should be about.
You chose Zerg for a reason. Have fun with it. Rush defilers. Learn to stack mutas. Eat your opponent's army with ultralisks at the 12:00 mark. Drop lurkers. Go Queens vs SKT. It's a blast of a race to play. Don't worry if you are losing some games. Get in there and learn what the race is truly capable of and you will figure out what styles you want to perfect.
On March 15 2019 23:03 SC_ar wrote: I agree with a lot of what Nina said at the beginning of the thread. I have been a new Z climbing out of F rank and hovering ever close to D. I don't get a lot of time to play on ladder anymore because of work, so I usually dedicate a few hours on the weekend to solid laddering and practice when I can on weekdays.
One thing that has definitely has merit is the idea of rushing to get wins on ladder. It can feel like prison when you're getting rolled by 2 gate or 5 rax as a new Zerg, and the temptation to simply give up is strong. I would recommend whipping out a 4 pool when you are bored or just want to wreck a Terran's day. To practice Zerg rushing more effectively I would recommend you learn a 9 pool speed all-in build and get the timings down perfectly. Control your first six lings in two groups of three and use the fourth pair to kill the scout. For ZvP I think you are better off practicing overpool or 12 hatch.
What I would strongly suggest if you want to have fun is to practice a few builds at a time, but focus on one per day per race when you are putting in practice. I typically practice a rush-oriented build against one race and macro-oriented towards the others. For example, I will straight up 9 pool speed every Terran for a week at times while. Some weeks I practice Crazy Zerg quick 3 hatch against Terran (look this up, it's a great way to have fun and beat Terran without miserably flailing your mutas into death) but always 9 pool ZvZ. It is true that this hurts my consistency when I come back from days off, but I have fun on the ladder and that's what being a new player should be about.
You chose Zerg for a reason. Have fun with it. Rush defilers. Learn to stack mutas. Eat your opponent's army with ultralisks at the 12:00 mark. Drop lurkers. Go Queens vs SKT. It's a blast of a race to play. Don't worry if you are losing some games. Get in there and learn what the race is truly capable of and you will figure out what styles you want to perfect.
This is good. It's not a bad idea to learn a simple build to perfection first, before moving on to more complex ones. It's just like learning simple music first. Then, when your simple 9 pool speed or what ever stops working despite perfect execution and decision making, it's time to move on to a strategy that's slightly more complex, and when that build, despite perfect execution, loses to some things, then either move on to a more generalistic build, or, in game, deviate from your build when you scout that he's doing what it loses to (if it has hard counters, you can't do this).
I tried 9 pool speed all-ins and they just don't work. Even a bad player can usually see you had gone 9 pool speed and didn't get an expansion.
12 hatch/Overpool into speedling all in is much stronger, especially if your opponent sees you got a third base or started Lair. They think you're doing a standard build and only prepare the most meager defenses
9 pool speed into making only lings is the standard in zvz anyway, so it's not even all-in, it's required to be able to get mutas out vs. 12 pool
but u LEARN nothing so doing it on ladder will not make u better ... doing it in clanwar is fine as a protoss myself i double 4pooled a korean semipro to win as well but in ladder its not worth it .... u get wins but u learn nothing means u play now vs BETTER opponents but still be bad
You learn nothing from doing an all-in? That's wrong.
1. You learn how to do a build order. People who can already play the game don't appreciate this. Only certain obsessive people are going to sit there and practice the same build against the computer until they get it down to pro level. I literally use save games to load from the middle of the build to practice scouting and macro at the same time against the computer. The average person just wants to play the game.
2. You learn how to deny scouting. Even when attempting this I would be often foiled by not finding a stupid probe on the map and instantly losing. If you deny scouting well while doing a macro build your opponent may have to prepare for everything.
3. You learn the current map pool. Since maps frequently change, beginners probably won't know them well and won't take the time to look at them in the map editor. They certainly won't try walling in four different locations trying to find ling tight configurations. On FS, I know factory + barracks light tight walls and two depot + barracks ling tight wall. It's not because I know how to wall, it's because Terrans have used those walls against me. Similarly, I know how many gaps Protoss walls have in each position.
4. You learn how to control units. So many times I see even good players just attack move workers with zerglings and get absolutely smashed by a drill. 6 zerglings can't take 12 scvs! If you ran by a cannon, using remaining 3 zerglings to just kill 3 probes is not worth it. You have to micro to actually make your opening work for you.
5. You learn how to macro/multitask. When you have zerglings in your opponent's base and they're doing work, but he's not dead yet, you still need to make drones back at home and take expos. While you're making his workers chase your zerglings around. Happens a lot when you run by a single cannon or the Terran couldn't block your lings from entering his base.
It just happens to be that intermediate players know how to do all of those things already pretty well, so they don't learn as much. This is why cheesy players at the higher levels have a bad reputation. But for a beginner there's no reason to lose to a 2 gate or bunker rush when you could have been opening 9 pool every game to actually be safe. His opponent doesn't have builds that are tight enough for the small difference to matter, but the extra safety will keep him sane during laddering.
allins are such a weak way of playing when you are starting, it gives no special satisfaction aside of the fact that you caught your opponent off guard while being much worse than him most of the time and you are completely naked if that doesn't work and will lose miserably. Playing like that will make you an unsecure bitch with low self esteem. On the other hand you could watch some recommended replays, try a bit everything and focus on a build order that is of your liking. Disregard difficulty when learning, the most important is the fun you get. But to give a direction, I would start with pool9 for zvz until you get bored to get smashed by pool12. For z v t any lurker opening bo.
Well I'm thinking about getting into bw, already bought it but didn't have time to play yet, heck I don't even know which race I'm gonna pick, but if someone would teach me 4 pool as first build I would be pretty upset.
On April 11 2019 02:16 iopq wrote: You learn nothing from doing an all-in? That's wrong.
1. You learn how to do a build order.
No, you don't. You get an idea what a real build order might be like.
2. You learn how to deny scouting.
One of the very few good points of your argumentation.
3. You learn the current map pool.
No, you don't. You don't learn how map features influence larger clumps of units, ramp and cliff mechanics, not to mention dozends of crucial special map featuers such as stacked neutral buildings, blocked expos, island expos and such. You really don't.
4. You learn how to control units.
No, you don't. You get a very basic feeling about few units. What you are telling about defense is better taught in 2n2, which is - with a friendly ally - also a lot more rewarding and helps you to socialize. Good luck finding friends by doing all-ins all the time.
5. You learn how to macro/multitask.
You got to be shitting me here.
It just happens to be that intermediate players know how to do all of those things already pretty well, so they don't learn as much. This is why cheesy players at the higher levels have a bad reputation. But for a beginner there's no reason to lose to a 2 gate or bunker rush when you could have been opening 9 pool every game to actually be safe. His opponent doesn't have builds that are tight enough for the small difference to matter, but the extra safety will keep him sane during laddering.
On point again, but you got to be careful to highlight what you mean when you post "guides". Else newcomers will read that as if 9 Pool is a magical solution and the best variation of any Zerg opening when it clearly isn't.
I think I can see the argument on both sides. Iopq is suggesting all in build orders for new players to get into ladder immediately with more success than they would of if they played “standard.” I think it depends on how new you are and what your goals are, if you don’t know anything about Starcraft and just want to fuck around and see how much damage you can do with all ins then this is a great guide. But if you want long term success in Broodwar you have to learn mid-late game at some point. Iopq has a good point though in which many pro Zerg players implement very aggressive all ins based on map and scouting information. I think the guides are good but it’s all relative to what your goals are
On April 12 2019 23:35 castleeMg wrote: I think the guides are good but it’s all relative to what your goals are
Which is, imaginably, reflective of the person who wrote the guide as a person - or at the very least, what THEIR approach to the game is, what they value, etc. I think one of iopq's major reasons is that "losing sucks, noobs lose a lot, when you lose a lot you want to quit." This is definitely true for some, but not for all. I think it's about being self-aware (which is sometimes lacking in new players, hell, all of us) and deciding which guide or advice actually applies to you as a player.
You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing.
Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw.
On April 13 2019 05:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing.
Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw.
Well said! Playing standard can quickly become stale and boring for some. Playing different styles, especially aggressive all-ins is simply fun.
On April 13 2019 05:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing.
Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw.
I mean, you say that, but I'm pretty sure Cadenzie makes balloon money.
On April 13 2019 05:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You don't have to aspire to play like a pro with their years of ingrained technique and game knowledge to learn the game. Playing all-ins make you more versatile and appreciative of various styles and enhance game knowledge. It also is an accelerated way of learning to multitask, map awareness and the importance of tightness of a BO timing.
Also mindlessly forever practicing "standard" just kills off motivation, is fustrating because people get trapped into thinking about bw in a "standard" bubble. No-one here is going to be going "pro" and getting them juicy afreeca balloons and doing mukbang and winning money from ASL. Playing all-ins is a perfectly valid way to learn and enjoy bw.
Well said! Playing standard can quickly become stale and boring for some. Playing different styles, especially aggressive all-ins is simply fun.
Mhm. Theres an odd over competitiveness in the community, where playing the game is referred to as 'practice' and people self stylize as coaches, fixation on getting your ladder score higher, blah blah. Certain portion of the community must be related to OCD personality shit because they seem obsessive.
On April 12 2019 23:35 castleeMg wrote: I think the guides are good but it’s all relative to what your goals are
Which is, imaginably, reflective of the person who wrote the guide as a person - or at the very least, what THEIR approach to the game is, what they value, etc. I think one of iopq's major reasons is that "losing sucks, noobs lose a lot, when you lose a lot you want to quit."
Not at all. It's more like "if you do a standard build order as a new player you won't get a quick feedback cycle"
You're going to go wrong maybe in a dozen different points trying to do a standard build. Basically anyone watching the replay would say "you're doing everything wrong"
I want to get past this part quickly, and bang out some games where you can say "I got hard countered, I did nothing wrong but he went 2 gate and stomped my 5 pool"
That's when you try to do something like 3 hatch hydra and learn to actually stop the 2 gate before you get to your OWN build. The key point is you didn't need to learn to defend your first few games. It limits the scope of what you needed to learn.
In fact, the most OPTIMAL way to learn the game is to pick a build, get an opponent that does another standard build, do them until you get them down perfectly, save the game, and just keep resuming and playing from that point forward.
But what build is that? Playing vs. 2 gate, 9 pool, bunker rush every game but playing like you don't know it's coming. Until you stop losing to it, just keep grinding it out. After you do that, you play vs. other stupid stuff like 1 gate tech, 2 port wraith, etc.
But of course, that requires a practice partner. This is specifically a guide to how to practice every tournament viable build by yourself. If you want to play in a tournament, you're going to eventually need to practice all-in builds for longer series to keep your opponent guessing. Every single pro player knows how to do them.
Why are people averse to learning them? Everyone who's good has spent some time actually polishing their 5 pool.
The scene is also full of enough cookie cutter bitches who copy every-single-action including basic decision making from progamers, or other players who have done the same. At least starting out with aggression a given player has the potential to develop into a more creative and self affirming style.
On April 12 2019 07:54 iopq wrote: Really? Because at pro level 9 pool is competitive with 12 pool. Like 50% win rate on FS. When do you get bored of getting smashed? Lol
Ho really? Then let's play and go always 9pool see how your 50% goes.
On April 12 2019 07:54 iopq wrote: Really? Because at pro level 9 pool is competitive with 12 pool. Like 50% win rate on FS. When do you get bored of getting smashed? Lol
Ho really? Then let's play and go always 9pool see how your 50% goes.
If we played and your 9 pool beat my 12 pool 100% of the time, what would it prove? It would only prove we're mismatched as players
but look at actual pro games, 9 pool often beats 12 pool on FS and other small maps
Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?
On May 25 2019 19:02 fearthequeen wrote: Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?
One potential argument would be the issue of establishing bad habits or a reward dependency in a game that is often unrewarding and which punishes bad habits which hold you back if your opponent stabilizes after a cheese. I 100% agree that 5 pool is probably the most accessible strategy in Brood War that is viable, but by the same token I find it to be the one that is among the least representative of the game overall.
On May 25 2019 19:02 fearthequeen wrote: Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?
One potential argument would be the issue of establishing bad habits or a reward dependency in a game that is often unrewarding and which punishes bad habits which hold you back if your opponent stabilizes after a cheese. I 100% agree that 5 pool is probably the most accessible strategy in Brood War that is viable, but by the same token I find it to be the one that is among the least representative of the game overall.
Reward dependency...is that another way of saying enjoying yourself? If someone wants to play a game only insofar as they enjoy it, not sure what the issue is...
everyone is capable of navigating their own wants and desires and intentions, especially regarding something as trivial as a video game. If a cheesy new player wants to take this game really fucking seriously, he will naturally not become "reward dependent" since it isnt aligned with his goals. Its not anyone elses concern but that persons how he plays or why he plays or how far he takes it. And yet, theres a slew of people in this thread who seem to object and think that there even could be an argument against this, at all. Ridiculous!
On May 25 2019 19:02 fearthequeen wrote: Agree with iopq's argument here. There are a million ways to progress through this game and just because you start off learning all in strategies doesn't mean you can't get good at standard/management play in the future. In reality, in ladder/tournaments you need to know both how to all in and play standard to maximize your success anyway. So why not simplify it in the beginning and enjoy it more?
One potential argument would be the issue of establishing bad habits or a reward dependency in a game that is often unrewarding and which punishes bad habits which hold you back if your opponent stabilizes after a cheese. I 100% agree that 5 pool is probably the most accessible strategy in Brood War that is viable, but by the same token I find it to be the one that is among the least representative of the game overall.
Reward dependency...is that another way of saying enjoying yourself? If someone wants to play a game only insofar as they enjoy it, not sure what the issue is...
everyone is capable of navigating their own wants and desires and intentions, especially something as trivial as a video game. If a cheesy new player wants to take this game really fucking seriously, he will naturally not become "reward dependent" since it isnt aligned with his goals. Its not anyone elses concern but that persons how he plays or why he plays or how far he takes it. And yet, theres a slew of people in this thread who seem to object and think that there even could be an argument against this, at all. Ridiculous!
What I mean is more along the lines of growing to only enjoy the game whilst winning or having won one, which you are right in saying may be one's disposition from the outset. The issue I see is that it may cultivate a dependency in those people who do not necessarily have such a predisposition, and thus would limit them from finding new ways to enjoy the game.
This is ultimately all theoretical and opinion so I wouldn't go so far as pretending there isn't an argument for learning cheese first, but let's not pretend there isn't an argument for NOT doing so. Don't become that which you argue against.
I think it's pretty interesting idea to learn the game by starting with cheese and then progressing towards macro play as you improve. I personally started by learning builds like 5 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, etc so I have no experience of whether or not learning the basics by cheesing would work well, but the idea makes a lot of sense to me. I was fortunate enough to play with people near my skill level when I started the game but the ladder is very unforgiving for new players. I think players with below 70ish apm probably should follow iopq's guide for the reasons that he's given. Anyway, whether or not iopq's idea turns out to be really useful, I still found the guide pretty helpful for teaching zerg cheese even for players who are not completely new to the game.
That said, I think Jealous has a good point. It's probable that a lot of players are tempted to cheese in order to get good winrates and they want to avoid learning to play macro either because it's less fun for them or because they don't want to keep losing at first. I've known of a few players who only cheese and they have been doing this for a very long time. This mindset sort of applies to me as well since I often have the habit of trying to close games in the midgame with strong timings because I don't want to play lategame (because I am bad at it and don't want to lose) and as a result, my lategame is really bad in almost every matchup.
This is semi off topic. But as a history major one of my professors made us read a paper called "The end of history" by Fukuyama. He argues that history has achieved its final form of governance, liberal democracy, after the collapse of the soviet union. Most of us history majors disagree with statements said, but the fact that someone said something so fervently sparks a conversation.
iopq in this case is in the same position, he has created a great discussion on how the game should be played, or the fact if there is a right way to play the game. Ultimately it comes down to the player and the goals that they have. If you plan on being a tournament player and aspire to win a defiler tournament, maybe this is not the route one should go. However, if you pop on for maybe 2 hours a week and just want to play against people, but not commit too much time this is probably a good route.
Here's a newer zergling pressure build that can transition to midgame, I first saw it done by Soma in a slower variation, but it's not good against 9 gate pressure because your zerglings are very slow, so I am following a more recent build he does
It should be used against Protosses that went gate expand, against forge expand you want to actually just drone because it won't work at this exact timing (they have a cannon up)
9 overlord cancel overlord, 9 hatchery 9 overlord 9 pool scout the Protoss and block his first zealot drone until 11, then save larva for zerglings 16 hatch at third 18 overlord
get gas when you want to get gas, you can transition to whatever you want and build as many zerglings as you want, it's very flexible
Note: if you see a fast probe, don't put the hatchery down and immediately get a pool and just play 9 overpool build order because it's forge expand which means he can just cannon rush your hatchery right away and even pros lose to this with fast hatchery
When you reach his base, don't try to run by, just kill his gateway and micro when he comes out to defend it, you can often surround and kill zealots when he's not careful - then he might have no zealots and no gateway
On June 17 2019 15:58 reps)squishy wrote: This is semi off topic. But as a history major one of my professors made us read a paper called "The end of history" by Fukuyama. He argues that history has achieved its final form of governance, liberal democracy, after the collapse of the soviet union. Most of us history majors disagree with statements said, but the fact that someone said something so fervently sparks a conversation.
iopq in this case is in the same position, he has created a great discussion on how the game should be played, or the fact if there is a right way to play the game. Ultimately it comes down to the player and the goals that they have. If you plan on being a tournament player and aspire to win a defiler tournament, maybe this is not the route one should go. However, if you pop on for maybe 2 hours a week and just want to play against people, but not commit too much time this is probably a good route.
lmao What does Fukuyama say now xd. Many countries have fallen to authoritarian regimes, even those that were the supposed divine wonders of democracies with leader that seemingly supported democracy like Turkey with their never ending President Erdogan. And by tell it is not a big surprise that Žižek likes Fukuyama that much. After all it follows the same principle of explainging history as a simplification of processes just like Marx with an end result. But many countries seem to work more like an Aristokratie anyway.
On January 17 2022 22:54 iopq wrote: Here's a newer zergling pressure build that can transition to midgame, I first saw it done by Soma in a slower variation, but it's not good against 9 gate pressure because your zerglings are very slow, so I am following a more recent build he does
It should be used against Protosses that went gate expand, against forge expand you want to actually just drone because it won't work at this exact timing (they have a cannon up)
9 overlord cancel overlord, 9 hatchery 9 overlord 9 pool scout the Protoss and block his first zealot drone until 11, then save larva for zerglings 16 hatch at third 18 overlord
get gas when you want to get gas, you can transition to whatever you want and build as many zerglings as you want, it's very flexible
Note: if you see a fast probe, don't put the hatchery down and immediately get a pool and just play 9 overpool build order because it's forge expand which means he can just cannon rush your hatchery right away and even pros lose to this with fast hatchery
When you reach his base, don't try to run by, just kill his gateway and micro when he comes out to defend it, you can often surround and kill zealots when he's not careful - then he might have no zealots and no gateway
thx xd, i wondered if 9 hatch would be good vs stupid probe block/pylon block non sense, specially since this can become a big problem in your whole build with zealots coming to get on your nerves. This reminds me about the game soma vs mini were soma went 4 hatch at 4 different mineral bases vs gate expand and somehow won.xd
The timing for the 4/5 pool is much faster than 9 pool, your gas and pool will be nowhere near done, on Eclipse I saw 4 pool lings with the second overlord at 2:23 because he went around the first overlord - my pool is only half done
The correct response when you see lings so early is to cancel your 12 hatch (and gas probably too) and build two sunkens immediately. That way you have double his drone count unless your drone pulls have been terrible
This is also how you can easily block it with 12 pool with no damage - your sunkens will be up quickly, you don't need a second hatch to win, cancel it in that case too, you are almost guaranteed not to lose anything if you just run drones around without fighting much
I am around 1800 on ladder, 65% win-rate outside it, and I still (probably) can't beat 1v3 comp, without cheating using probe to attack their building earlier on, or their AI messes up and they just stay in their base all day.
So reverse advice is needed: How do you beat many comps after succeeding on ladder?
On June 25 2022 14:10 namkraft wrote: I am around 1800 on ladder, 65% win-rate outside it, and I still (probably) can't beat 1v3 comp, without cheating using probe to attack their building earlier on, or their AI messes up and they just stay in their base all day.
So reverse advice is needed: How do you beat many comps after succeeding on ladder?
Make 9 drones then overlord. make 3 drones.send drone out at min 1:30 and make expansion. then when you reach 200 minerals make pool and then extractor. (all this without making drones) Now you gonna start droning . When the lair is done make spire instantly. Around minute 5:20 make 7-8 sunks.Then you make Mutalisk and counter attack 1 opponent and most likely kill him.But what you can do is weak him enough and then attack other opponent. In the mean time you decide if expand or go lurkers and hatchery inside your base + hive tech to defiler. I hope this helps. Sadly if there is one zerg and he does 4 pool u will be in troubles :D .
How to actually have more larva than pros while hitting the same timings in ZvT:
grab the 9th drone, hotkey it and mine 8 minerals with it, tell it to go to the natural 9 hatch 9 overlord extractor trick 11 pool + gas <- important, because you need to spawn a larva right as the lair is done so we're trying to hit a 3:00 lair start to sync up with larva production scout 16 lair 16 a pair of zerglings 18 overlord 18 hatchery 20 spend more larva at the main because you're about to get an extra lair larva 22 spire 21 gas at the natural zergling speed when you can afford it 24 ov 29 ov and stop making drones/lings and send a drone to the 3rd, make +1 upgrade, mutas, an overlord, and your third
comparison:
hatchery at usually like 1:16 and a 7 second larva block making it an effectively 1:23 hatchery and we don't get larva blocked after that 12 hatch is around 1:40 pool and gas would be similar timings to 12/12/12, but have one more larva at the cost of slightly slower 3rd hatch larva (in total still about one more)
the only downside is you have so much larva you can't afford zergling speed for a while unless you sacrifice spire timing
12 pool 11 gas (#12 drone makes gas at over 100 minerals) 10 hatch 11 send drones to gas by using the gather hotkey 11 lair at 2:34 17 overlord 17 spire at 3:37 <-- you spawned a larva, lair pops and gives you a second larva (do NOT try to click up at 2:33 as it will mean one less drone and getting drones on gas at the perfect timing actually might block you at 3 larvae) make a drone or lings at the lair because you got the extra larva 18 gas zergling speed 22 supply start saving for muta 1 overlord (usually at the natural because it has more larva)
whoaaa, i remember reading the first ones of these posts some years back when i was starting out with remastered, time truelly flies away. What a shame
On January 17 2022 22:54 iopq wrote: Here's a newer zergling pressure build that can transition to midgame, I first saw it done by Soma in a slower variation, but it's not good against 9 gate pressure because your zerglings are very slow, so I am following a more recent build he does
It should be used against Protosses that went gate expand, against forge expand you want to actually just drone because it won't work at this exact timing (they have a cannon up)
9 overlord cancel overlord, 9 hatchery 9 overlord 9 pool scout the Protoss and block his first zealot drone until 11, then save larva for zerglings 16 hatch at third 18 overlord
get gas when you want to get gas, you can transition to whatever you want and build as many zerglings as you want, it's very flexible
Note: if you see a fast probe, don't put the hatchery down and immediately get a pool and just play 9 overpool build order because it's forge expand which means he can just cannon rush your hatchery right away and even pros lose to this with fast hatchery
When you reach his base, don't try to run by, just kill his gateway and micro when he comes out to defend it, you can often surround and kill zealots when he's not careful - then he might have no zealots and no gateway
so if you get second scouted by Protoss it's more likely to be forge FE than anything else, so vs. a relatively fast scout (not first, you go overpool in that case) you would do this:
9 overlord cancel overlord, 9 hatchery 9 overlord 9 pool scout the Protoss drone until 13 third from the last drone that you made goes to make an expo 2:42 gas(lines up lair and larva perfectly) make a drone at expo (it already has two larvae) make a pair of lings in main (it already has two larvae) drone at expo (two larvae again) 16 overlord 3:30 lair
your lair is not SUPER fast, but the economy is basically as good as it gets because of the extra larva if you are short a few minerals, delay overlord to get the lair timing exactly
while the hatchery is faster, I lose like 30 minerals by delaying the drone so much which would not be paid back by the faster hatchery since we'd also delay the third hatchery eventually
so in this case, the standard build is still the best, since we can't make the pool fast enough to get 3 pairs of lings at the same time without a larva block, and neither does it make sense to delay the drone for a long time
I compared it to a replay of Soulkey, he has a slightly faster Lair, but he gets the free larva a few seconds away from spawning the next one so it's optimized for perfect economy
I should shave about 4 more seconds off the lair timing and it would be perfect
This is a post pertaining to conversation that seemed to die in this thread a while back. I don't know if anyone will read it, but I'm kind of thinking about how if I would do it all again, how I would go about getting into the game in such a way as to not have to deal with all the pain and suffering I did the first time around (and without resorting to 4 pooling random people on the internet to feel better about myself).
If I was starting from scratch and wanted to get to the level I ended up in the past in a smoother, less agonizing way, I would first play through the campaign (to learn what the units do and how they move etc), then practice in offline environments for a rather long time (fighting computer opponents and playing micro maps), then eventually try fastest or BGH, and then seek low level 1v1 opponents using discord servers or so. Then at some point when I wanted a challenge I would finally set out on ladder to see what rank I could get after 100 games or so while trying to manage my expectations as best as possible.
During all of this I would watch vods and test out unit compositions and strategies I saw in them (likely with a very loose degree of accuracy to what was actually being done). I would also dedicate as much time as I cared to spend to practicing the physical required mechanics of the game in offline environments. These would be things such as rapid macro cycles, pulling workers to mine, hotkeying units quickly and efficiently, the various types of micro needed (if I could find micro maps to practice on), and pushing 1a2a3a really fast etc. I think building this sort of muscle memory in an offline controlled environment is a lot easier than trying to develop it vs real human opponents.
Around the time I started finally playing 1v1 against low level human opponent practice partners, I would probably start watching vods a little more closely while taking note of when and how players scouted each other. and what each player did based on the information they gained from scouting. I would also try to pay more attention to tactical manuevers players used to position their armies, or bait reactions from their opponents. It would also be at this point that I might try to teach myself some basic openings, and practice them until I could do the first few minutes of them with a high degree of accuracy.
After this it would be a long phase of continuing to play games with my low level practice partner friends, while watching pro vods and spending as much time as I could in offline environments figuring out how I could train my hands to habitually perform various tasks with a great degree of rapidity. All this offline practice would make real matches feel mechanically less overwelming, which would help me clear my head to think about strategy. Things like, what I know about my opponent from the information I have gotten up to this point from scouting, and what sort of tactical manuevers could put me in a strong position. Also if I had a particularily difficult micro issue holding me back (i.e. muta micro) I would try to find an opponent who would be willing to save the game state just before that micro portion, so that I could practice it with them over and over again.
I don't know exactly when I would try ladder, it would probably be based on whether I still felt like the rate that I was improving from my practice partners was meaningful or not. However as I shifted to ladder, I would reduce the amount of time I was doing offline mechanical practice by a degree, and replace it with a lot of replay study (of my own replays) in order to build greater insight on the variety of playstyles that I was coming up against, and a better awareness of the factors that were determing my losses. I would also try to make friends with people who have a similar style of analysis to me, and play the game in a way that I am interested in, and see if I could get them to watch my replays with me to give me some insight.
I would probably prepare one opening for each matchup (as well as a vague midgame plan) to practice on ladder, and it probably wouldn't be a 4 pool to start. If someone realllly likes 4 pool and wants to start with that, I don't think it's a bad thing at all. However, if your doing it ONLY to feel good about wins, I do believe that it is a slippery slope too become too reliant on strategies that are weak against opponents who can easily hard counter you if they know how you play. You're better off getting your fix killing ai opponents or low level practice partners.
Very detailed plan there, IMO a little too ladder-anxious. To each his/her own of course, but I'm not sure about the need for practice against "lower level human opponents" (xD) or starting with Fastest/BGH. Some people really dread getting stomped but I would rather start laddering earlier and not worry too much about losing. Better get a feel for the real competition early if you want to get good. (That said: Not before you have decent mechanics, aka after at least a few hundred offline-games practicing those specifically. If you want to skip that and just play, go ahead, but weeding out those bad mechanics later will be a real drag)
(0. Play the campaign if you want) 1. Learn all the shortcuts of your race AND what F2-F4 and the shift/ctrl/alt-keys do and how they're used (they're essential), and copy a pro's hotkey-setup 1.1 Henceforth always prioritize sticking to those hotkeys and mechanics over anything else, never ever use box-select/screen-scroll or use your mouse in any way if you don't have to. ("Become one with the keyboard") 2. Look up one good beginner build per matchup and practice the hell out of it offline (starting with a good worker split). This should include some kind of timing-push or attack that you want to end the game with (not just an opening). 3. When your replays don't look too bad anymore (workers/units standing still, build-order errors, resource-floating, missed timings), go ladder 4. Meanwhile keep watching progamers playing and compare what they do to what you do, and change your do-dos to how they do-do
After that it's game-by-game learning from your mistakes, asking for advice or returning to offline-practice for specific things, taking breaks if you hit a wall, keep having fun
the point of 5 pool is not to feel good about yourself, but to find out where the spawns are on all the maps, learn to make lings from one hatch while microing, etc.
not everyone can do offline practice and find it exciting
So to optimize the 2:00 gas 2:48 Lair timing a bit I came up with this:
9 hatch (1:12) 9 overlord 9 pool (1:49) 9 gas (1:59)
it's blocking the larvae 14 seconds, so compared to 11 hatch (1:31) it's still better by 5 seconds and the larvae line up better for mutalisks so you get 7 mutas out a few seconds faster
you can get zergling speed and everything you want at the same timing as 11 hatch, and the pool is ~8 seconds faster so you're safer against bunker rushes
below I tested some other builds that are not as optimal, this is the only one that lines the larvae up optimally while offering some benefits over 11 hatch
9 gas, make a drone, cancel for 10/9 10 hatch (1:18) 9 overlord (1:27 still not larva blocked) larva block (1:41-1:52) 9 pool (1:47) 9 gas (1:57)
we no longer have faster larva despite being blocked significantly less (because of how much gas trick delays your hatchery in the first place)
we're getting extra seconds on the gas and pool that we don't need to line things up
if we do everything one drone later everything is a bit late because if we 1:47 gas (without mining for a while, just to free up one drone) then our pool goes down at 2:00 which is 3 seconds too late
9 overlord (0:51) 9 hatch (1:21) 9th drone at 1:27 so not blocked 10 pool (1:51) 1:56 larva block 9 gas (1:57) 2:02 drone unblock
6 seconds blocked matches the 9 hatch, so maybe a bit more economical (the 9th drone mines a few minerals before going to make the hatchery so you have 9 drone saturation for a few seconds longer)
But the 6 second blocks desyncs the larva timer so the click up is no longer optimized at 2:48
9 hatch gas trick 10 pool 9 gas 9 overlord drone when second hatch finishes
this build is clever in that you can get a faster than 2:43 Lair and still get an extra larva (you delay yourself by like 20 seconds after 9 hatch so it roughly matches 11 hatch), but in my testing you can't get speed since you just don't have the minerals for it
I really like the idea that one should start with the most aggressive builds and move progressively towards macro builds. I think trying to get into huge macro games when you can’t keep up playing from one base is not the best way to learn.
On April 17 2025 07:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: I really like the idea that one should start with the most aggressive builds and move progressively towards macro builds. I think trying to get into huge macro games when you can’t keep up playing from one base is not the best way to learn.
It sounds like you are speaking about total beginners, i'd recommend the campaign in this case and getting used to using hotkeys and grouping units. not stupid cheese builds otherwise low level ladder is a pretty friendly place for macro oriented players.
On April 17 2025 07:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: I really like the idea that one should start with the most aggressive builds and move progressively towards macro builds. I think trying to get into huge macro games when you can’t keep up playing from one base is not the best way to learn.
It sounds like you are speaking about total beginners, i'd recommend the campaign in this case and getting used to using hotkeys and grouping units. not stupid cheese builds otherwise low level ladder is a pretty friendly place for macro oriented players.
I don’t know about that.
A lot of players start their journey copying build from the pros. The problem is that you need to have amazing mechanics and know the game very well to navigate a huge macro game where you sk terran from 8 barracks. You end up with people totally overwhelmed by their builds and totally unable to learn the things that really matter; aggression, timing, game sense.
I believe that starting with simple and aggressive builds is much better. If you can’t macro from one base, you can’t macro from four.
If i were to coach a terran starting TvP, i would start with varieties of 2 factory pushes, and early marines / bunker aggression.
I have to say that this observation is also something in have seen in chess, where it’s much better to learn with very aggressive openings that are not totally sound and move towards positional play as you get better. You also notice the trajectory of many champions in both games, such as Magnus Carlsen or Flash, who start their journey as extremely aggressive or cheesy and mature into positional / macro oriented types.
On April 17 2025 07:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: I really like the idea that one should start with the most aggressive builds and move progressively towards macro builds. I think trying to get into huge macro games when you can’t keep up playing from one base is not the best way to learn.
It sounds like you are speaking about total beginners, i'd recommend the campaign in this case and getting used to using hotkeys and grouping units. not stupid cheese builds otherwise low level ladder is a pretty friendly place for macro oriented players.
it depends on whether you like it or not
it doesn't matter what the most effective way to improve is, what you enjoy will make you improve faster since you will just put more time into it
Almost everyone here started playing the campaign, very few people just went online and started grinding in 1998. But it's by far not the only way to improve
In fact the most effective way to improve is to grind individual skills like mouse accuracy, builds, multi-tasking, etc. But if that discourages you from putting the time in, then it's not going to work.
A person who puts in 100 hours playing however they like will improve more than a person doing 10 hours of the most effective practice
On April 17 2025 07:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: I really like the idea that one should start with the most aggressive builds and move progressively towards macro builds. I think trying to get into huge macro games when you can’t keep up playing from one base is not the best way to learn.
It sounds like you are speaking about total beginners, i'd recommend the campaign in this case and getting used to using hotkeys and grouping units. not stupid cheese builds otherwise low level ladder is a pretty friendly place for macro oriented players.
it depends on whether you like it or not
it doesn't matter what the most effective way to improve is, what you enjoy will make you improve faster since you will just put more time into it
Almost everyone here started playing the campaign, very few people just went online and started grinding in 1998. But it's by far not the only way to improve
In fact the most effective way to improve is to grind individual skills like mouse accuracy, builds, multi-tasking, etc. But if that discourages you from putting the time in, then it's not going to work.
A person who puts in 100 hours playing however they like will improve more than a person doing 10 hours of the most effective practice
I’m actually not sure about that. Again to take the chess analogy, i used to really practice mindful, read books, analyze my games. It made me reach 1800 elonin a couple of years. That was 10 years ago. Then i started to play a lot but not really studying at all, and I’ve played over 20000 blitz games. I’m still 1800 elo.
I would argue that 10 hours of constrictive and conscious practice will do much, much more for you than 100 hours just playing without thought and method into it. All you will achieve is to reinforce bad habits.
Them you have to do what brings you the most. I like playing chess and don’t care one bit about getting better, so playing mindlessly is perfect for me.
On April 17 2025 07:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: I really like the idea that one should start with the most aggressive builds and move progressively towards macro builds. I think trying to get into huge macro games when you can’t keep up playing from one base is not the best way to learn.
It sounds like you are speaking about total beginners, i'd recommend the campaign in this case and getting used to using hotkeys and grouping units. not stupid cheese builds otherwise low level ladder is a pretty friendly place for macro oriented players.
it depends on whether you like it or not
it doesn't matter what the most effective way to improve is, what you enjoy will make you improve faster since you will just put more time into it
Almost everyone here started playing the campaign, very few people just went online and started grinding in 1998. But it's by far not the only way to improve
In fact the most effective way to improve is to grind individual skills like mouse accuracy, builds, multi-tasking, etc. But if that discourages you from putting the time in, then it's not going to work.
A person who puts in 100 hours playing however they like will improve more than a person doing 10 hours of the most effective practice
I’m actually not sure about that. Again to take the chess analogy, i used to really practice mindful, read books, analyze my games. It made me reach 1800 elonin a couple of years. That was 10 years ago. Then i started to play a lot but not really studying at all, and I’ve played over 20000 blitz games. I’m still 1800 elo.
I would argue that 10 hours of constrictive and conscious practice will do much, much more for you than 100 hours just playing without thought and method into it. All you will achieve is to reinforce bad habits.
Them you have to do what brings you the most. I like playing chess and don’t care one bit about getting better, so playing mindlessly is perfect for me.
Pure strategy games like chess and go are different. When I first started playing go I played vs. a guy with 5000+ games and 1000 elo rating (this was on yahoo games). I beat him, even though it was like my tenth game.
This led me on a grinding puzzles bend that increased my rating quickly (~4 kyu in a few months). I started beating the guy who was bragging about "understanding the game" because I just beat him in every fight we had on the board.
In StarCraft, there's something to be said about just grinding the same build on ladder for thousands of games. Doing nothing to improve my speed I increased my APM from ~140 to ~200 (and I don't spam at the start of the game). This is impossible without just practicing getting into the habit of multitasking.
You need to be good at ordering drones and making them mine while running zerglings around the Protoss base. You need to be good at ordering more mutalisks while picking off SCVs and marines. Of course, you can just NOT attempt to multitask and just play slowly every game. So of course, you need to practice in a productive way and attempt to do the correct thing, get absolutely wrecked by harass and do it better the next game until you run into a guy who does it even better.
EPT
Mutalisk Harassment
