EPT[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player - Page 4
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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iopq
United States903 Posts
you literally just have to make infinity sunkens while they're running to your base and hope your lings can delay (make them ball up while walking instead of just stim running inside your naked base) There's actually no way to know they're doing 2 rax until you have to already spam sunkens since it's really hard to get a scout in and they can avoid making a scanner in the natural if you have an overlord watching it Once they scan you, stim and start running towards your naked base it's actually somewhat hard to hold if you're being greedy so I always trickle out lings to give myself a chance to put up sunkens in time if I'm going to be greedy then I'd have one sunken up and just a pair of lings and then a second colony building at like 4:20 but in any case you need 3-4 if you don't have lings so the exact build won't be followed | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Highgamer
1401 Posts
See this line: On October 31 2018 09:32 iopq wrote: you really don't know if they're going 2 rax most of the time, you just see the CC going up and you know they went 1 rax expand I thought he meant: You don't know if they build a 2nd rax after the CC (for pre-muta-push) or an ebay (for +1 and 5rax), you just see the CC going up and know that they started with 1rax expo (which could lead to both things). This 2 (or 3)rax push is also very flexible, you can move out sooner or later, with 8/10/12 marines and 1-3 medic, maybe a firebat, depending on how many lings you see. | ||
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iopq
United States903 Posts
I'm talking about normal timing CC into second barracks before refinery. Sometimes you get a huge 24 marine 4 medic push right before mutas are out (4 barracks before academy) that aims to just win even if there are 4 sunkens (you literally need 5 or more to be safe against it) but in any case you just can't know when they hit you with something, so you can't adjust your build until OMG OMG OMG build sunkens | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Also, zergs will get an evo in front of the sunkens when the stim timing arrives which buys some precious seconds until the sunkens are finished. | ||
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DJONES
United States218 Posts
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Panthous
30 Posts
I used to have this very self-improvement approach to playing SC and I tried to do long macro game builds and strategies every game, playing T. I only had very few games that were actually close where I felt I played well and won. Most games I would lose either because they were much better or because of stupid shenanigans where I failed to stop which I should reasonably be able to stop. And most games I won were just a walkover. I think playing some cheese build over and over really narrows down the type of game you play. It gives you control over what happens. I think playing cheese 1vs1 should be better than playing 3vs3 BGH. BHG are such a clusterfuck, I don't really know why that would be fun (except if you play with friends or something). Playing the campaign? Come on? You don't need to play the campaign to learn the units or the tech tree. If you don't need to have fun and if you want to become the best player in the shortest amount of time, yeah you can do multitask ums over and over. Learn builds. Do micro specific ums maps. And then play vs specific practice partners. But who really wants to do that? If you do 12 hatch muta vs T then you already have a strategy with so many angles. Why are you doing it in the first place? To secure a third gas and get defiler tech. So you actually know why you are doing it and how to counter several things the T can try to do. Yeah, you can blindly copy that high level play build, and take it from there. But why? Strategically it makes no sense. You aren't realistically getting to a point where a proper 3 hatch play actually is needed for your play. And if it is either playing the campaign or copying a standard long game macro build from high level play, why are we comparing two vastly different things? I don't know about 4/5 pool, but playing the game in a way that rediscovers the way top players play today kind of makes sense. Start with a 9 pool with speed. When you can execute it properly but it stops working, then ask yourself why and come up with an alternative. For example 2 hatch lurkers with drop. I think that makes a lot more sense and actually learns you about logical strategies than just copying some standard pro player build and not really understanding what is happening because your actual games look completely different from pro games with the same build. | ||
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james1024
118 Posts
ZvZ go 12 pool no gas and make four sunkens in your expo and 3-4 spores in your bases and attack him with about the 2000 gas you have saved up as mutas sounds weird but it works at this rank ZvP go 12 pool with gas and pump nothing but lings after you got your basic drones then rally 12 speedlings (you take your drones off gass at 100) to the outside of his base and make a proxy hatch at a base near his like hidden i mean and rally back to this point which you hotkey on f4, then runby with 12 lings however you can, if you can't you lose, but it usually gets about 5-6 lings in then just run those lings around harrassing a bit, then you take your reinforcing 24 lings outside his base while his zealot fruitlessly chases your in base lings then attack with those inbase lings and your 24 outside zerglings and pounces on his cannons and kill his whole expo this is a rush build don't feel like getting into july style but you can watch my tutorial it's called july's zvp or something on youtube ZvT Go 10 hatch for avoiding rushes and just go mass muta and work on your muta micro and don't get owned by 1/1/1  sorry i'm not actually that good but I got to B rank with this kind of stuff | ||
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iopq
United States903 Posts
On November 02 2018 23:30 ortseam wrote: You can always scout the marine count once you get speed, if they went 2 rax you will see more marines before medics are out. Terrans might try to hide marine count but this should be rare, especially on ladder. Also, zergs will get an evo in front of the sunkens when the stim timing arrives which buys some precious seconds until the sunkens are finished. once you see the medics they're running to your base already, it doesn't help I don't actually know the correct marine counts at every point in the game either, but maybe I should check out some replays and count | ||
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iopq
United States903 Posts
4:00 6 marines 4:15 7 marines 4:30 8 marines 4:45 9 marines 5:00 10 marines then Terran starts to make medics with the fast +1 build, but medics take a few seconds longer so if you see more than 9-10 marines or medics before 5 minutes, it's not +1 5 rax assuming normal CC timing a second barracks shouldn't be ready before 4:15, so there shouldn't be a difference in the count until 4:30 | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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iopq
United States903 Posts
On November 08 2018 04:39 ortseam wrote: Also note that these are standard 2 rax timings, Terran can cut SCVs and hit even faster. Example VOD: Sharp vs Soulkey 18 rax/20 gas, 2nd rax finished at 3:50, academy finished at 4:30 That's right, so it's even more obvious that it's expand 2 rax, since in expand 2 rax you can cut SCVs to make more marines faster Also note CC timing, it should be between 2:30 and 2:45 depending on how fast the Terran scouts you. If he scouts you last and ends up making a marine and the CC at 17, it should be later than if he scouts you first and decides to skip the marine for a 16 CC if you see it later than 3:00 something is up for sure But look in that VOD, extra marines are being hidden because there are a few in the front pushing lings away, there's no way to count the two rax pressure until he already starts running out right before the 6 minute mark | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
I think i’d go like 11 pool no gas into expand. Safe and wont lose straight up to most rushes | ||
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iopq
United States903 Posts
On December 26 2018 03:55 crbox wrote: I totally disagree with OP and would never attempt to do 4-5 pools as a beginner. Will not be enjoyable and will not build any foundation on how the game works. I think i’d go like 11 pool no gas into expand. Safe and wont lose straight up to most rushes Maybe from a beginner that has played other RTS or Dota not from the standpoint of someone who may not have even good mouse accuracy skills, much less the ability follow a build order at fastest speed (yes, there are people who can't even get to 9 overlord without fail splitting, having idle drones, etc.) if you can do 5 pool and make zerglings WHILE you micro them inside of someone's base that part of the guide is not for you, it's for absolute beginners, move on to the 2/3 hatch builds | ||
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WolFix
Poland38 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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SC_ar
United States35 Posts
One thing that has definitely has merit is the idea of rushing to get wins on ladder. It can feel like prison when you're getting rolled by 2 gate or 5 rax as a new Zerg, and the temptation to simply give up is strong. I would recommend whipping out a 4 pool when you are bored or just want to wreck a Terran's day. To practice Zerg rushing more effectively I would recommend you learn a 9 pool speed all-in build and get the timings down perfectly. Control your first six lings in two groups of three and use the fourth pair to kill the scout. For ZvP I think you are better off practicing overpool or 12 hatch. What I would strongly suggest if you want to have fun is to practice a few builds at a time, but focus on one per day per race when you are putting in practice. I typically practice a rush-oriented build against one race and macro-oriented towards the others. For example, I will straight up 9 pool speed every Terran for a week at times while. Some weeks I practice Crazy Zerg quick 3 hatch against Terran (look this up, it's a great way to have fun and beat Terran without miserably flailing your mutas into death) but always 9 pool ZvZ. It is true that this hurts my consistency when I come back from days off, but I have fun on the ladder and that's what being a new player should be about. You chose Zerg for a reason. Have fun with it. Rush defilers. Learn to stack mutas. Eat your opponent's army with ultralisks at the 12:00 mark. Drop lurkers. Go Queens vs SKT. It's a blast of a race to play. Don't worry if you are losing some games. Get in there and learn what the race is truly capable of and you will figure out what styles you want to perfect. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On March 15 2019 23:03 SC_ar wrote: I agree with a lot of what Nina said at the beginning of the thread. I have been a new Z climbing out of F rank and hovering ever close to D. I don't get a lot of time to play on ladder anymore because of work, so I usually dedicate a few hours on the weekend to solid laddering and practice when I can on weekdays. One thing that has definitely has merit is the idea of rushing to get wins on ladder. It can feel like prison when you're getting rolled by 2 gate or 5 rax as a new Zerg, and the temptation to simply give up is strong. I would recommend whipping out a 4 pool when you are bored or just want to wreck a Terran's day. To practice Zerg rushing more effectively I would recommend you learn a 9 pool speed all-in build and get the timings down perfectly. Control your first six lings in two groups of three and use the fourth pair to kill the scout. For ZvP I think you are better off practicing overpool or 12 hatch. What I would strongly suggest if you want to have fun is to practice a few builds at a time, but focus on one per day per race when you are putting in practice. I typically practice a rush-oriented build against one race and macro-oriented towards the others. For example, I will straight up 9 pool speed every Terran for a week at times while. Some weeks I practice Crazy Zerg quick 3 hatch against Terran (look this up, it's a great way to have fun and beat Terran without miserably flailing your mutas into death) but always 9 pool ZvZ. It is true that this hurts my consistency when I come back from days off, but I have fun on the ladder and that's what being a new player should be about. You chose Zerg for a reason. Have fun with it. Rush defilers. Learn to stack mutas. Eat your opponent's army with ultralisks at the 12:00 mark. Drop lurkers. Go Queens vs SKT. It's a blast of a race to play. Don't worry if you are losing some games. Get in there and learn what the race is truly capable of and you will figure out what styles you want to perfect. This is good. It's not a bad idea to learn a simple build to perfection first, before moving on to more complex ones. It's just like learning simple music first. Then, when your simple 9 pool speed or what ever stops working despite perfect execution and decision making, it's time to move on to a strategy that's slightly more complex, and when that build, despite perfect execution, loses to some things, then either move on to a more generalistic build, or, in game, deviate from your build when you scout that he's doing what it loses to (if it has hard counters, you can't do this). | ||
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iopq
United States903 Posts
12 hatch/Overpool into speedling all in is much stronger, especially if your opponent sees you got a third base or started Lair. They think you're doing a standard build and only prepare the most meager defenses 9 pool speed into making only lings is the standard in zvz anyway, so it's not even all-in, it's required to be able to get mutas out vs. 12 pool | ||
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