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[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player - Page 4

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Cryoc
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany909 Posts
October 30 2018 21:39 GMT
#61
You should probably add some comment to add sunkens earlier in case of a pre-muta timing. This looks like it is only for vs +1 builds.
http://www.twitch.tv/cryoc
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-31 01:17:50
October 31 2018 00:32 GMT
#62
you really don't know if they're going 2 rax most of the time, you just see the CC going up and you know they went 1 rax expand

you literally just have to make infinity sunkens while they're running to your base and hope your lings can delay (make them ball up while walking instead of just stim running inside your naked base)

There's actually no way to know they're doing 2 rax until you have to already spam sunkens since it's really hard to get a scout in and they can avoid making a scanner in the natural if you have an overlord watching it

Once they scan you, stim and start running towards your naked base it's actually somewhat hard to hold if you're being greedy so I always trickle out lings to give myself a chance to put up sunkens in time

if I'm going to be greedy then I'd have one sunken up and just a pair of lings and then a second colony building at like 4:20
but in any case you need 3-4 if you don't have lings so the exact build won't be followed
Yanokabo
Profile Joined October 2018
268 Posts
November 01 2018 14:21 GMT
#63
Almost nobody goes 2 rax. It’s either 1-1-1 or rax fe it factory fe and 2 rax is only good for defending a allin or a 5 pool. Flash took a game off effort because effort was allining very extremely with 2 hatch muta and 9 pool. If effort had scouted what flash was doing it wouldn’t have worked.
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1404 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-01 19:17:29
November 01 2018 19:01 GMT
#64
Yanokabo, I think with "2 rax" he meant 1rax FE into 2nd rax academy to make a small pre-muta-push - which indeed, like Cryoc hinted, can win many games outright if Zerg doesn't build earlier sunkens + lings in time.

See this line:

On October 31 2018 09:32 iopq wrote:
you really don't know if they're going 2 rax most of the time, you just see the CC going up and you know they went 1 rax expand


I thought he meant: You don't know if they build a 2nd rax after the CC (for pre-muta-push) or an ebay (for +1 and 5rax), you just see the CC going up and know that they started with 1rax expo (which could lead to both things).

This 2 (or 3)rax push is also very flexible, you can move out sooner or later, with 8/10/12 marines and 1-3 medic, maybe a firebat, depending on how many lings you see.
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
November 02 2018 08:12 GMT
#65
That's exactly right, when you don't see a second CC going up you know they are doing SOMETHING like tech or two rax no expand.

I'm talking about normal timing CC into second barracks before refinery. Sometimes you get a huge 24 marine 4 medic push right before mutas are out (4 barracks before academy) that aims to just win even if there are 4 sunkens (you literally need 5 or more to be safe against it)

but in any case you just can't know when they hit you with something, so you can't adjust your build until OMG OMG OMG build sunkens
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
November 02 2018 14:30 GMT
#66
You can always scout the marine count once you get speed, if they went 2 rax you will see more marines before medics are out. Terrans might try to hide marine count but this should be rare, especially on ladder.

Also, zergs will get an evo in front of the sunkens when the stim timing arrives which buys some precious seconds until the sunkens are finished.
DJONES
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States218 Posts
November 03 2018 01:56 GMT
#67
I don't think 4 and 5 pool is the answer to getting started. I would start with learning a couple standard openings, and go from there. (12 hatch -> 3 hatch muta or lurker vs T, Overpool -> 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra vs. P etc.)
facebook.com/DJONESisagod
Panthous
Profile Joined October 2018
30 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-03 12:13:15
November 03 2018 12:11 GMT
#68
You can have a very long very philosophical discussion about how you should approach and play SC BW in 2018, especially as a beginner. The big question is 'why do we even play'? I would say that if you are in college, don't play video games but enjoy social life. If you are pre-college and if it would be 2008, yeah maybe consider trying to become the best player you can. But if you are post-college in 2018, you should play purely for fun.

I used to have this very self-improvement approach to playing SC and I tried to do long macro game builds and strategies every game, playing T. I only had very few games that were actually close where I felt I played well and won. Most games I would lose either because they were much better or because of stupid shenanigans where I failed to stop which I should reasonably be able to stop. And most games I won were just a walkover.

I think playing some cheese build over and over really narrows down the type of game you play. It gives you control over what happens. I think playing cheese 1vs1 should be better than playing 3vs3 BGH. BHG are such a clusterfuck, I don't really know why that would be fun (except if you play with friends or something). Playing the campaign? Come on? You don't need to play the campaign to learn the units or the tech tree.

If you don't need to have fun and if you want to become the best player in the shortest amount of time, yeah you can do multitask ums over and over. Learn builds. Do micro specific ums maps. And then play vs specific practice partners. But who really wants to do that?

If you do 12 hatch muta vs T then you already have a strategy with so many angles. Why are you doing it in the first place? To secure a third gas and get defiler tech. So you actually know why you are doing it and how to counter several things the T can try to do. Yeah, you can blindly copy that high level play build, and take it from there. But why? Strategically it makes no sense. You aren't realistically getting to a point where a proper 3 hatch play actually is needed for your play. And if it is either playing the campaign or copying a standard long game macro build from high level play, why are we comparing two vastly different things?

I don't know about 4/5 pool, but playing the game in a way that rediscovers the way top players play today kind of makes sense. Start with a 9 pool with speed. When you can execute it properly but it stops working, then ask yourself why and come up with an alternative. For example 2 hatch lurkers with drop.

I think that makes a lot more sense and actually learns you about logical strategies than just copying some standard pro player build and not really understanding what is happening because your actual games look completely different from pro games with the same build.
james1024
Profile Blog Joined March 2017
118 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-04 10:10:11
November 04 2018 10:09 GMT
#69
Well i switched factions to protoss but I won a lot of games by:

ZvZ go 12 pool no gas and make four sunkens in your expo and 3-4 spores in your bases and attack him with about the 2000 gas you have saved up as mutas sounds weird but it works at this rank

ZvP go 12 pool with gas and pump nothing but lings after you got your basic drones then rally 12 speedlings (you take your drones off gass at 100) to the outside of his base and make a proxy hatch at a base near his like hidden i mean and rally back to this point which you hotkey on f4, then runby with 12 lings however you can, if you can't you lose, but it usually gets about 5-6 lings in then just run those lings around harrassing a bit, then you take your reinforcing 24 lings outside his base while his zealot fruitlessly chases your in base lings then attack with those inbase lings and your 24 outside zerglings and pounces on his cannons and kill his whole expo this is a rush build don't feel like getting into july style but you can watch my tutorial it's called july's zvp or something on youtube

ZvT
Go 10 hatch for avoiding rushes and just go mass muta and work on your muta micro and don't get owned by 1/1/1 sorry i'm not actually that good but I got to B rank with this kind of stuff
Woke this morning to the stinging lash///Every man rise from the ash/// Each betrayal begins with trust/// Every man returns to dust///
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
November 06 2018 10:38 GMT
#70
On November 02 2018 23:30 ortseam wrote:
You can always scout the marine count once you get speed, if they went 2 rax you will see more marines before medics are out. Terrans might try to hide marine count but this should be rare, especially on ladder.

Also, zergs will get an evo in front of the sunkens when the stim timing arrives which buys some precious seconds until the sunkens are finished.

once you see the medics they're running to your base already, it doesn't help

I don't actually know the correct marine counts at every point in the game either, but maybe I should check out some replays and count
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-07 09:50:27
November 07 2018 08:45 GMT
#71
Should be roughly about this:

4:00 6 marines
4:15 7 marines
4:30 8 marines
4:45 9 marines
5:00 10 marines

then Terran starts to make medics with the fast +1 build, but medics take a few seconds longer
so if you see more than 9-10 marines or medics before 5 minutes, it's not +1 5 rax

assuming normal CC timing a second barracks shouldn't be ready before 4:15, so there shouldn't be a difference in the count until 4:30
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-07 19:42:31
November 07 2018 19:39 GMT
#72
Also note that these are standard 2 rax timings, Terran can cut SCVs and hit even faster. Example VOD: Sharp vs Soulkey 18 rax/20 gas, 2nd rax finished at 3:50, academy finished at 4:30
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-08 06:08:48
November 08 2018 06:03 GMT
#73
On November 08 2018 04:39 ortseam wrote:
Also note that these are standard 2 rax timings, Terran can cut SCVs and hit even faster. Example VOD: Sharp vs Soulkey 18 rax/20 gas, 2nd rax finished at 3:50, academy finished at 4:30

That's right, so it's even more obvious that it's expand 2 rax, since in expand 2 rax you can cut SCVs to make more marines faster

Also note CC timing, it should be between 2:30 and 2:45 depending on how fast the Terran scouts you. If he scouts you last and ends up making a marine and the CC at 17, it should be later than if he scouts you first and decides to skip the marine for a 16 CC

if you see it later than 3:00 something is up for sure

But look in that VOD, extra marines are being hidden because there are a few in the front pushing lings away, there's no way to count the two rax pressure until he already starts running out right before the 6 minute mark
crbox
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1180 Posts
December 25 2018 18:55 GMT
#74
I totally disagree with OP and would never attempt to do 4-5 pools as a beginner. Will not be enjoyable and will not build any foundation on how the game works.

I think i’d go like 11 pool no gas into expand. Safe and wont lose straight up to most rushes
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
February 15 2019 19:41 GMT
#75
On December 26 2018 03:55 crbox wrote:
I totally disagree with OP and would never attempt to do 4-5 pools as a beginner. Will not be enjoyable and will not build any foundation on how the game works.

I think i’d go like 11 pool no gas into expand. Safe and wont lose straight up to most rushes


Maybe from a beginner that has played other RTS or Dota

not from the standpoint of someone who may not have even good mouse accuracy skills, much less the ability follow a build order at fastest speed (yes, there are people who can't even get to 9 overlord without fail splitting, having idle drones, etc.)

if you can do 5 pool and make zerglings WHILE you micro them inside of someone's base that part of the guide is not for you, it's for absolute beginners, move on to the 2/3 hatch builds
WolFix
Profile Joined December 2009
Poland38 Posts
February 15 2019 21:38 GMT
#76
Best guide, I'm switching to zerg.
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1148 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-02-16 13:48:43
February 16 2019 13:47 GMT
#77
korean amateur ZeLoT literally 4pools every matchup to 2000mmr every season before he do his "normal" strats (he peaks 2600+mmr). so yeah its legit. familiarising yourself with cheese also gives you better understanding of how to counter it when you face one yourself.
SC_ar
Profile Joined July 2018
United States35 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-03-15 14:04:36
March 15 2019 14:03 GMT
#78
I agree with a lot of what Nina said at the beginning of the thread. I have been a new Z climbing out of F rank and hovering ever close to D. I don't get a lot of time to play on ladder anymore because of work, so I usually dedicate a few hours on the weekend to solid laddering and practice when I can on weekdays.

One thing that has definitely has merit is the idea of rushing to get wins on ladder. It can feel like prison when you're getting rolled by 2 gate or 5 rax as a new Zerg, and the temptation to simply give up is strong. I would recommend whipping out a 4 pool when you are bored or just want to wreck a Terran's day. To practice Zerg rushing more effectively I would recommend you learn a 9 pool speed all-in build and get the timings down perfectly. Control your first six lings in two groups of three and use the fourth pair to kill the scout. For ZvP I think you are better off practicing overpool or 12 hatch.

What I would strongly suggest if you want to have fun is to practice a few builds at a time, but focus on one per day per race when you are putting in practice. I typically practice a rush-oriented build against one race and macro-oriented towards the others. For example, I will straight up 9 pool speed every Terran for a week at times while. Some weeks I practice Crazy Zerg quick 3 hatch against Terran (look this up, it's a great way to have fun and beat Terran without miserably flailing your mutas into death) but always 9 pool ZvZ. It is true that this hurts my consistency when I come back from days off, but I have fun on the ladder and that's what being a new player should be about.

You chose Zerg for a reason. Have fun with it. Rush defilers. Learn to stack mutas. Eat your opponent's army with ultralisks at the 12:00 mark. Drop lurkers. Go Queens vs SKT. It's a blast of a race to play. Don't worry if you are losing some games. Get in there and learn what the race is truly capable of and you will figure out what styles you want to perfect.
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
March 15 2019 19:33 GMT
#79
On March 15 2019 23:03 SC_ar wrote:
I agree with a lot of what Nina said at the beginning of the thread. I have been a new Z climbing out of F rank and hovering ever close to D. I don't get a lot of time to play on ladder anymore because of work, so I usually dedicate a few hours on the weekend to solid laddering and practice when I can on weekdays.

One thing that has definitely has merit is the idea of rushing to get wins on ladder. It can feel like prison when you're getting rolled by 2 gate or 5 rax as a new Zerg, and the temptation to simply give up is strong. I would recommend whipping out a 4 pool when you are bored or just want to wreck a Terran's day. To practice Zerg rushing more effectively I would recommend you learn a 9 pool speed all-in build and get the timings down perfectly. Control your first six lings in two groups of three and use the fourth pair to kill the scout. For ZvP I think you are better off practicing overpool or 12 hatch.

What I would strongly suggest if you want to have fun is to practice a few builds at a time, but focus on one per day per race when you are putting in practice. I typically practice a rush-oriented build against one race and macro-oriented towards the others. For example, I will straight up 9 pool speed every Terran for a week at times while. Some weeks I practice Crazy Zerg quick 3 hatch against Terran (look this up, it's a great way to have fun and beat Terran without miserably flailing your mutas into death) but always 9 pool ZvZ. It is true that this hurts my consistency when I come back from days off, but I have fun on the ladder and that's what being a new player should be about.

You chose Zerg for a reason. Have fun with it. Rush defilers. Learn to stack mutas. Eat your opponent's army with ultralisks at the 12:00 mark. Drop lurkers. Go Queens vs SKT. It's a blast of a race to play. Don't worry if you are losing some games. Get in there and learn what the race is truly capable of and you will figure out what styles you want to perfect.


This is good. It's not a bad idea to learn a simple build to perfection first, before moving on to more complex ones. It's just like learning simple music first. Then, when your simple 9 pool speed or what ever stops working despite perfect execution and decision making, it's time to move on to a strategy that's slightly more complex, and when that build, despite perfect execution, loses to some things, then either move on to a more generalistic build, or, in game, deviate from your build when you scout that he's doing what it loses to (if it has hard counters, you can't do this).

If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
April 10 2019 01:21 GMT
#80
I tried 9 pool speed all-ins and they just don't work. Even a bad player can usually see you had gone 9 pool speed and didn't get an expansion.

12 hatch/Overpool into speedling all in is much stronger, especially if your opponent sees you got a third base or started Lair. They think you're doing a standard build and only prepare the most meager defenses

9 pool speed into making only lings is the standard in zvz anyway, so it's not even all-in, it's required to be able to get mutas out vs. 12 pool
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