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Hmm. Thinking a long way back, for me it was...
1)campaign
2)playing against computer doing whatever until I could 1v3 them
3)noob pub games
4)finally ladder, mostly 2 base production focus though, rather than 1 base builds
So I'd rather recommend 3 hatch hydra plays and so on for beginners, than 5pool.
Not worrying about specific builds much, simply working on mechanics and trying to have a lot of stuff.
Hell, I was doing a lot of 3 hatch lair -> hydra/queens(for broodling on HTs) when I first started playing on PGT, and it was obviously a horrible build, but it still got plenty wins to progress. Eventually hitting a wall that could not be overcome with execution, learning proper builds, etc.
Just remember to have fun. Order of importance is pretty much: having fun -> mechanics -> builds and adjustments -> tactics.
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I like this. Personally I learned the koget / ninazerg way, but let's not forget that people are different. This might work for some people. I suspect this is how eonzerg learned to play. He got pretty decent 
And ffs, that 1 hatch lurker drop still kills me every time.
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The "new player" syndrome is (surprise surprise) not only in broodwar!
So... considering what I learned in broodwar over the years and my recent learning experience in Heros of the storm and overwatch as a new player:
-Step 1. Play the game at the least competitive option first.
This is to get a feel for what the game is, how it moves, what can happen in it (much longer in BW than in mosta games).
-Step 2. Play a few games in ladder and get owned.
This is a step that tells you the brutal truth: You want to win, you gonna have to work because everyone has a head start over you. They already did steps 1 to 5.
-Step 3. Get online, read guides, practice offline builds, watch replays, play 3v5 crazy comps, etc.
This is your accelerated course. This is what you need to "catch up" a bit to those that played the game longer than you.
-Step 4. Start to actually learn and enjoy the rewards of each thing you learn, while learning it painfully.
Around 20% of the games become rewarding, 80% are still painful loses. You still have a lot to learn but you start to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
-Step 4a. This step is where most people stay forever. There is always something else to learn.
-Step 5. At this point, you know you win games because you learned enough, you lose games because you ignore things you know, and the game becomes enjoyable even if you lose. Because most of your games are good regardless of who wins.
This is by far the most addictive part of this game, and the main reason I dont play it anymore. Its the only game where a loss can feel this good.
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On May 11 2018 08:41 niteReloaded wrote:
I wouldn't recommend anyone to pick up SC now.
The game is too frustrating to play, too hard to learn enough to be able to find equal opponents on ladder.
I love the time I've spent with it, but..... life is easier than SC.
Better pick up pickup and bang chicks instead of being pwned by nerds.
Being bopped around on ladder should be a thing of the past with automatchmaking. You should drop down pretty quickly to 1000, 800, 500, or whatever skill a relatively new player is going to have.
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This also isn't how I would get started. I guess it's how I would get started if I had to ladder, though I would probably consider an aggressive 2 hatch build since that at least forces a modicum of macro.
That said, you don't have to get started in ladder. Just practice doing 3 hatch muta into 4 base play against the PC. Step 1 is to hit your build order. Step 2 is to get to 200/200 without going over 1k minerals. Step 3 is to get to 200/200 while move a scout/army around the map consistently.
At worse, this can be accomplished in 2 or 3 weeks, probably faster. I'm guessing for most people this would take 10-30 hours depending on how quick they pick it up. At this point, you can hop on ladder and be at least a 1k player, more than enough to find reasonable games. You'll still have a hell of a lot to learn, but you'll have decent fundamentals that just need to be filled in by knowledge and developing comfort with game flow and unique situations.
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United States948 Posts
There's a HUGE HUGE problem with doing that. It's the part where you have to play several thousand games to see all the all-ins you have to know how to beat.
You jump into a game and you get immediately bunker rushed. You don't know how to stack drones. You don't know how many to pull so you can make lings back at home when the pool is done. You end up losing your hatchery and leaving.
Next game you get two gate proxied and even though you went overpool he outmicroes you anyway because you engaged too early.
Next game he goes 9 pool speed and still kills your hatchery even though you "countered" it with 12 pool.
You didn't even get a chance to practice your build vs. a real opponent. That's why I suggest beginners start with something like 9p speed when they first start out. You easily crush people trying to all-in you quickly and have more satisfying games where you practice your own all-in.
When I have time, I will record some 2 hatch play starting with 12 pool or the like. Stay tuned.
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On June 05 2018 17:05 iopq wrote:
There's a HUGE HUGE problem with doing that. It's the part where you have to play several thousand games to see all the all-ins you have to know how to beat.
You jump into a game and you get immediately bunker rushed. You don't know how to stack drones. You don't know how many to pull so you can make lings back at home when the pool is done. You end up losing your hatchery and leaving.
Next game you get two gate proxied and even though you went overpool he outmicroes you anyway because you engaged too early.
Next game he goes 9 pool speed and still kills your hatchery even though you "countered" it with 12 pool.
You didn't even get a chance to practice your build vs. a real opponent. That's why I suggest beginners start with something like 9p speed when they first start out. You easily crush people trying to all-in you quickly and have more satisfying games where you practice your own all-in.
When I have time, I will record some 2 hatch play starting with 12 pool or the like. Stay tuned.
Those are all very real risks and it happens a lot so I think that s why several people recommended to start with team games/ums so you get to meet people and play in a more relaxed environment (or not, sometimes ppl get really serious in those modes too).
At any any case if somebody here recently went through the experience with sc:r it d be great to get some sort of feedback!
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On June 05 2018 17:05 iopq wrote:
There's a HUGE HUGE problem with doing that. It's the part where you have to play several thousand games to see all the all-ins you have to know how to beat.
You jump into a game and you get immediately bunker rushed. You don't know how to stack drones. You don't know how many to pull so you can make lings back at home when the pool is done. You end up losing your hatchery and leaving.
Next game you get two gate proxied and even though you went overpool he outmicroes you anyway because you engaged too early.
Next game he goes 9 pool speed and still kills your hatchery even though you "countered" it with 12 pool.
You didn't even get a chance to practice your build vs. a real opponent. That's why I suggest beginners start with something like 9p speed when they first start out. You easily crush people trying to all-in you quickly and have more satisfying games where you practice your own all-in.
When I have time, I will record some 2 hatch play starting with 12 pool or the like. Stay tuned.
You're going to have to do this at some point anyway.
I wouldn't necessarily argue against doing some allins when you first start on ladder to develop a little actual micro against other people...but I would still play the standard build orders against PC first until you can do what I was talking about. Then move to allins. You'll actually be able to macro while doing things and have competent mechanics, which makes the game vastly more satisfying regardless of what build you're doing.
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No one is going to learn anything or improve with guides like this lol
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I would say people learn best at what they like, and for some players they are going to enjoy doing these kind of rushes, and, will have to branch off at the times they fail to kill, or become repetive. i.e player grows when and to what degree they want, and in what way they want. Its helpful if people find these simple concepts enjoyable, which I imagine there is a demographic for it...I learned the game through cheeses, not cookie cutter macro.
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I mean, I started out with campaign, then computer stomps and then custom games etc. but that never taught me how to properly 1v1 in a ladder, it's just different.
SC has sooooo many variables happening all at once, learning an easy build is a good way to understand how the game is played. comp stomps don't have the same psychological effect either, where you know the CPU is set in it's ways and is predictable, humans aren't. There's also such thing as ladder anxiety, many players avoid ladder because they dont have something easy to try and lose focus, get nervous, etc.
On July 01 2018 12:04 GGzerG wrote:
No one is going to learn anything or improve with guides like this lol
yes you will, it will teach you how to execute a basic build order and how to master it through repetition and will boost your confidence at executing harder builds. It's a stepping stone.
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If you want good advice you shouldn’t listen to iopq or any of his friends. He is a trash player doesn’t even know the basics of zerg
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 03 2018 13:02 funnybananaman wrote:
If you want good advice you shouldn’t listen to iopq or any of his friends. He is a trash player doesn’t even know the basics of zerg
User was temp banned for this post.
If that was true he would have never made it anywhere in this game, which I know he has made great strides since I first saw him play.
The advice is very much flawed, but not entirely bad. Mixing and knowing these aggressive builds helps better manage vs players who go with the extreme greedy styles of play.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I glanced over the guide and it's not bad. IMO, someone new to the game shouldn't jump into ladder. Find someone else who's new and learn the game together. 1v1 etc... will all help you learn greatly since you are playing the game against someone of your own skill level. Ideally, it's in a matchup that you enjoy so that you can keep spamming games together.
For me, what I find helped greatly was the above and maintaining awareness during the game. In my better macro games, I've kept a close watch on my supply count, resources as well as unit production despite trying to do a lot of other things. Granted, I don't expect a newbie to be able to do all that off the bat, but the game is extremely rewarded once you just get a small grasp of what is possible.
You may never be able to macro like Flash, but so long as the opponent on the other end is someone of a similar skill set, you'll have a blast and improve over time! 
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On July 10 2018 01:12 BigFan wrote:
I glanced over the guide and it's not bad.
what guide? There are random build orders, no context and the sentence "I reached X MMR with it". I could also post "I reached 1800 MMR after an eight year break without remembering any builds", would neither be a lie nor would it be good advice. Doing random strats in order to boost your rating isn't helping anyone if you actually want to learn. This has no structure and no structure means chaos.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 10 2018 06:38 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2018 01:12 BigFan wrote:
I glanced over the guide and it's not bad. what guide? There are random build orders, no context and the sentence "I reached X MMR with it". I could also post "I reached 1800 MMR after an eight year break without remembering any builds", would neither be a lie nor would it be good advice. Doing random strats in order to boost your rating isn't helping anyone if you actually want to learn. This has no structure and no structure means chaos.
I'm firmly in the camp of you need to focus on actually playing the game as you see fit. Your mechanics will improve as you play if you're having fun and simpler builds are easier to pull off. Keep in mind that nowhere did I say these are good builds, but at least they are basic enough.
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On July 10 2018 06:45 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2018 06:38 GeckoXp wrote:On July 10 2018 01:12 BigFan wrote:
I glanced over the guide and it's not bad. what guide? There are random build orders, no context and the sentence "I reached X MMR with it". I could also post "I reached 1800 MMR after an eight year break without remembering any builds", would neither be a lie nor would it be good advice. Doing random strats in order to boost your rating isn't helping anyone if you actually want to learn. This has no structure and no structure means chaos. I'm firmly in the camp of you need to focus on actually playing the game as you see fit. Your mechanics will improve as you play if you're having fun and simpler builds are easier to pull off. Keep in mind that nowhere did I say these are good builds, but at least they are basic enough.
Therefore my main criticism would be "no context". If you read this as beginner and don't know much, it seems as if these builds only would allow you to really progress in the game, while I seriously doubt that. Granted, mixing in some of the builds does a lot of good, more than just brainless repetition of macro oriented strategies. Yet, if you're only focussing on builds that end the game within 15 minutes, there's more than a real danger to end up becoming a one trick pony with no skill at all.
There's two different kind of players that struggle with what's caused by the same problem, but has two seperate manifestation:
1) The one trick pony, that only knows how to end games early and loses to any solid player. Usually that happened once you reached C- shortly before or after the SCII Beta on ICC, sometimes even before. After this point, no more progression whatsoever, or only slow, cause half of that population has to learn the very core of the game from square one. And that is frustrating as hell. Some outliers achieved higher ranks by some alternation of the method (using more subtle all-ins), but usually no further than a low C+ at best.
2) The mechanic monster, that only progresses slowly at first, then a bit faster until they get stuck. Usually the kind of player that only praises 'Korean' strategies (whatever those might be), but that never learned to look at strategies from different angles.
To not become either one of those types it really helps to do be as versatile as possible. However, the OP never supplied any information as to why or what he thinks about the builds. As is, this "Guide" (it's not a guide, just build orders) seems to say: Cheese and that's better than whatever else might be possible. And that's objectively speaking a horrifying suggestion.
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United States948 Posts
The thing is, ZvZ is usually one or two hatch builds. You need to know how to do a 9 pool, 12 pool, or 12 hatch if you want to play ladder.
So even if what you're doing in other match-ups is not viable at high levels (but two hatch muta is actually viable at the highest levels), you still learn how to do those ZvZ builds.
I'm simplifying it on purpose. To do three hatch muta you actually have exact timings for lurkers, hive, defiler den, nydus, evolution chambers. That's preset timings well into 70 supply, where if you don't get everything out in time you instantly lose your third or natural.
Five hatch hydra is preset for the first nine minutes, where you get up to 80 supply or so.
Of course it branches if your opponent is not playing standard, but on ladder you'll have enough games where your opponent does the exact standard timings for everything so you need to learn the exact build or you just lose. What's that? Your hydras are not on the ramp when lurker upgrade is done? Say goodbye to your third.
I could give you the exact supply by supply build, but it's already on liquipedia with some details omitted. But it's also not necessary for beginners. You will play much more efficiently with a low econ build. If I told beginners how to play far third Zerg style in ZvP, they would need to learn about a thousand Protoss all-ins before getting a single win from it. But it wouldn't feel that great either because when the MMR drops that much you get people who go one base carrier or something - basically you don't get to practice vs. standard builds.
By getting people up above 1500 we actually get games where people can defend with some skill, so we work on build execution, scouting, micro, macro. It still takes some multitasking skills to make more mutas when going 2 hatch muta. Those skills from microing two hatch muta carry over to three hatch muta. You just need to learn new build. Starting with three hatch muta will just get you killed as a beginner.
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This is very good topic. It's something I'm struggling with as well.
On one hand as Day9 puts it there's no bad strategies or cheese strategies. If something works for you go for it. At the same time he's saying that playing long macro games is way better for you than playing all-ins. You learn so much more after each macro game than you do with all-in build. So why bother with all-ins to get wins if you cripple yourself in the long run?
This is really hard and I could not find a simple answer for that. I try to do solid builds and they rarely work coz I'm very bad and not sure how many years it might take for me to hit all those timings, even against PC. That's from the point of 1300 MMR player and below. Sometimes I just say fuck it and do a bunch of 9 pool speeds or 4 pools or 3 hatch ling all-ins and they work way better at my level, but I feel like that's an unfair thing to do. There's something wrong and unstable about it. It's a hard thing to accept that if you get scouted you lose to a decent player.
Oh here's a nice example. Yesterday on CPL stream I saw two tier 3 players playing ZvP. Zerg was doing solid builds, had APM above 200 all the time and was able to beat 70 APM protoss 1 base tech no problem. Better control, better macro. You would think Z takes 2:0 no problem. Next game that Protoss player places two proxy gates in the middle of the map. No economy behind, two gate zealot rush. Zerg could not defend it. I see the struggle, I see the frustration and I see gg from zerg eventually. This makes it 1:1. Third game, Protoss does the exact same thing - two gate zealots, zerg scouts and knows it's the same thing, and guess what? Still dies and could not defend it. I felt sorry for him/her. It's a strange feeling, like you trying to fight your opponent straight but get hit between the balls instead, or your opp just shoots you dead.
It was clear to me that at low level it's way harder to defend proxy two gates as a zerg player than to go for proxy gates as a protoss player.
Earlier I asked my teammate to go two gates vs me each game for like 5 times in a row (in-base two gate, not even proxy) and I died to that every single time knowing that it's gonna be two gate. So yeah, clearly some builds are easier than the others.
We see only high level EU and Korean scene mostly, those builds are always ridiculed and made fun of, but if you go lower than that - there's where those builds prevail. I bet any low-level protoss player know how hard is to go forge expand and not die to lings or hydras. You don't see a proper defense very often coz in Korea they defend most of this shit with PURE MICRO. You see three zealots come across the map you think - how stupid the protoss player is? Zerg can easily defend that with just drones and smidge of lings. Zerg defends no problem. When those same 3 zealots come to your base on ladder you die instantly. All your lings die, all your drones, die. You don't see a sunken response to that from Korean player, you don't see a lot of lings being made coz they defend with JUST ENOUGH units and no more than that. If you only watch pro streams and ASL you will be frustrated of why you die to all kinds of shit and why you can't do a single build they are doing well. It's not on the surface, it's not obvious and you don't see any real examples.
I'm glad I discovered lots of CPL streams. I advice all the new players to watch them where all the juicy stuff happens, especially at lower "tiers". This might get you thinking and reconsider your priorities. I seriously think it's possible to practice a solid Korean build for many years and get nowhere. Is it better for you in the long run? Would you grow faster? I'm not sure. Still doubting this theory.
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EPT
