Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 96

in those 2 sentences, i can get that u dont have much zvz experience/understanding and your playing a build based of some pro games without any guide (so "less knowledge" on the build).
Because your not the first person who is just starting and has no "overall experience", i was thinking that u might do the same "mistakes" which nearly all the other people did.
1) generalizing builds from "1 specific situation" into a "standard" build.
2) getting the build wrong from the vod, so there is a big misunderstanding going on and u were actually talking about a different build.

and because u were talking about a build i havent seen in pro games for at least 3 years, i was quite confused and really wanted to know from which progame u got that from.

to your questions:
Hacklebeast summed it up pretty nicely:
scourges when u think he will attack shortly because scourge build faster than mutas, or when u have 11 mutas its better to add in scourges than 2-3 un-microed mutas.
for early "timing attacks" 2-4 scourges are good for maximizing damage. or if both people play a mass ling mirror with rather low eco, u can turn it into scourge/ling and snipe his few mutas/overlords.

and yeah u "normally" should have 2 hatches even if u are on 1 base, unless u go for aggressive builds (9pool speed first, 9pool lair first, overpool speed first,overpool lair first with many early lings, agressive overgas)
for muta micro vs mutas, which are also microing, technically right click is the best variation because all mutas will fire the same muta. other than that u can micro the way u feel most comfortable
(same with micro vs scourge, hold and patrol both work, i use hold when i engage the scourge head on and patrol when i run away or around them).


ok, now to the point where i started facepalm-ing.

Flip9, C- zerg, who is a friend of mine, quoted liquipedia, often an ok place to get information from.
But sometimes it has pretty old builds, unchanged for years. And very often, the wording in liquipedia is just terrible.
just like "all bark but no bite"
lets break down that liquipedia segment:

"11 Gas 10 Pool is an 1 Hatchery build that aims to get Mutalisks quickly while maintaining healthy Drone and Zergling numbers early on."
what drone and zergling count is healthy? 10? 12? or more? i can also get mutalisks quickly with any other build which somehow gets a lair before 3 hatches.

"A popular choice amongst top-tier players, its effectiveness relies heavily on the player's micro to capitalize on the fast Mutalisks."
what "top-tier" players? as i said i havent seen this build in at least 3 years of pro league. i know 0 foreign players playing that build.
every zvz build effectiveness relies heavy on the player's micro on lings, drones and mutas.
what mutas are fast mutas? are 12 hatch mutas not fast anymore?

"After your initial Zerglings, you should react depending on what your opponent is doing. If your opponent is extremely greedy, you can try to kill him outright by attacking and rallying Zerglings to his base.
Otherwise, you want just enough Zerglings to fend off any possible attacks while you tech to Mutalisks."
is playing 12 hatch at natural already greedy? how many lings are enough to fend of possible attacks?
other than that, u generally need to watch out for what he is doing in any starcraft game.

"It's often necessary to build a Sunken Colony if your opponent is making Zerglings non-stop.
Against 12 Hatch builds, an additional Sunken is sometimes required."
generally in all zvz:
if u both have 1 hatch, u dont need a sunken if u mirror his ling count and hold your ramp.
if u have 1 hatch vs any 12 hatch or any 12 pool 11 gas 11 hatch build with many lings, u "normally" need 1 sunken if u keep massing lings.
if your enemy is not going for lair/mutas at all and is just trying to mass lings to kill you, make 2 sunkens.

"You are particularly vulnerable while saving for Mutalisks."
ok this again applies for all zvz builds, because he can use larva on extra lings to attack you while u save them for mutas.

so imho, i had more questions then i got answered by that liquipedia post.
yeah some things are kinda ok for general understanding of zvz, but other than that i still have no idea what my advantage in that build is, or what i really should do with that build, or how to solve your problem with your 2nd hatchery.
actually i just re-read your post the fifth time and realized that u are indeed placing your hatchery right afterwards (sort of, still dont know the drone count).
more on that later....

he follows it up with saying that this liquipedia post should help with understanding. ye it helps with general understanding of zvz, but as i said before i dont know how i will fare against the other zvz builds or how i should play it.
the only reasonable advantage of a "gas first" build is that u will have gas advantage, which he is saying next.
well, u have around 80 more gas compared to 12 pool 11 gas lair first. (11 gas 10 pool has ~160 gas when pool finishes, 12 pool has ~80 gas when pool finishes).
also the part: " you stay on 1 base for a while " does it mean 2 hatches on 1 base or 1 hatch on 1 base?
the "build lings when u dont know what he is doing" is a good advice.

so hacklebeast thinks u should have 2 hatches in your base before mutas, flip9 only says the "you stay on 1 base for a while", which says nothing about hatchery number.
then randomly Dead9 says that 11 gas 10 pool is a 1 hatch lair build and u get a 2nd hatch later.....

so now i had 3 questions:
1) which progamer played 11 gas 10 pool, because it is a really strange build (u actually are talking about a different build i think)
2) are we all talking about the same build?
3) your responses to the 3 people made me think that u would simple agree to a contradicting statement which still didnt solve anything, compared to asking whats right or wrong or if that liquipedia build is even the right build your describing.

1+2+3 = facepalm + being confused

i talked to flip9 after my first post and he was also rather confused because if u play exactly like the liquipedia build, u will only have money for a 2nd hatch after you started your spire (if u mass ling).

OK, now going to the vod.
as i thought, your description in your first post is a different build. Or at least 4 people thought of a different build than u did.
in the vod, Jaedong is playing 12 pool 11 gas 11 hatch at natural, 3 drones in gas and then goes lair first. Jaedong "developed"/popularized that build in 2008 in order to fight the (in 2008) recent metagame of defensive overpool builds on destination,[which would build 4-5 mutas (depending if lingspeed yes/no) and 2 scourge directly when the spire finishes and attacks before the enemy gets enough mutas out] while at the same time having better chances at winning vs 12 hatch at natural because u also secure a natural.
this 12 pool build by jaedong was then called "the jd build" for like 6-9 months. After that people more or less forgot about it and zvz was changing into new trends, mostly revolving about the mastery of buying time/spore colonies.
i started using that build more or less when it came out because it was still considered "weird, different" and so on.
it was my number 1 build on destination for like 2 years (from rank D+ until B).

"but wait, he is making his gas before his pool"
well, he is making them at the same time, and if u play a 12 pool there is very low benefit from placing the pool at exactly 200 minerals at 12 supply and the gas directly after that at 50 minerals because of 2 things:
1) is sometimes depends on how your drones return the minerals, if u get a rather lucky fast mineral retun to boost u to 200 slightly faster, when the pool finishes, u will only have 2 larva for 2-3 seconds and have to wait for the 3rd one to appear. (so yeah 4 lings will be out 2-3 seconds earlier, but the impact is very very small)
2) if u want to place 3 drones in your geysir the whole time and/or want to go lair first, u wont have enough money to use your larvas (which can be seen in the jaedong vod u linked). so if u would need to use the 3 larvas (and more) on lings in order to fight some 9 pool agression, u will have 200 or more gas sitting in the bank and no minerals to use it.

because of that "lack of drones on minerals" in any "12 pool 11 gas 11 hatch at natural" game, u are forced to take 1-2 drones of gas if u have to mass ling in order to survive.
u can see in that jaedong vod that he removes 1 drone from gas at 2:56. My guess is he harvested 200 gas and then took 1 drone off.

now thats not the complete truth, because if u play 12 pool 11 gas 11 hatch at natural mirror, it often comes down to both player massing lings (because its hard to keep track of everything and dieing to mass ling is quite easy with rather low 2 hatch eco) and then u need to take 2 drones of gas in order to constantly use all larva

ok. i also said that i wanted to see the vod because some things might be from "1 specific situation".
we are seing a zvz on Benzene, a 2 player map with bigger main to main distance than cross position on Fighting Spirit.(iirc)
because of that big distance its really hard to put on pressure with a 9 pool speedling build for example while it would be rather easy to get a 12 hatch at natural going.
jaedong actually played 12 pool 11 gas 12 hatch, squeezing in an extra drone before the hatch, so he would only be able to build 4 lings when the pool finishes and would have a harder time against 9 pool aggression.
But that extra drone will make fighting vs mirror or 12 hatch builds easier.
jaedong also sent his first overlord to scout for crazy-hydras 2nd overlord (u can see jaedongs ovi is more heading to CH main first instead of his natural)
i think that the ling count we saw was actually jaedongs way of playing against a 9 pool, because CH hid his 2nd overlord.

the problem with 12 pool is that imo it is the hardest zvz build to master because there are so many ways to die, especially vs 9 pool speed or fe, most problematic on 4 player maps when u dont scout your enemy.
because of that i was playing 9 pool speed on 4 player maps.(mostly python and colosseum 2 at that time)
generally if u "dont want to die" against 9 pool speed, use 2-3 drones to fight with your lings until u have made 4 lings from the hatch in your natural. try not to let 2-4 lings of him sneak into your main or else it will be a real micro hell on 2 fronts.
otherwise against 12 hatch builds or a 999 mass ling attack, a sunken in your natural while massing lings should do the job.

before i forget it, tryummm for you.....
the 4 hatch vod!

a 4 hatch hydra faking a fake 3 hatch hydra bust.
i actually wanted to post by.hero vs stats on empire of the sun, but the video is currently set on private in nevakes channel

oh and tryummm, nobody ever said anything about discussing. i just explain stuff and thats it.
for me, a discussion has a "what do u think about it?" atmosphere, which mostly ends without a solution because the 2 main fronts dont want to give in. (for example the "zvz hydra build" thread)
an explanation on the other hand is just stating how stuff works and your free to take it the way u want to.
i also dont get what "progamer dont play 4 hatch anymore" has to do with solid mechanics and emulating progamers.
when i help a person who wants to show me a replay i always check his general reaction times and will ask for his hotkey usage, because without "basic mechanics" emulating progamers wont help u at all. (also said by shark during hyungjun becomes a progamer)
and also if u dont know why the progamer is doing what he is doing, u can copy wrong things.

btw, if u answer my post with a different opinnion, i think that will turn it into a discussion,
otherwise feel free to criticize my understanding of the english language.