EPTOr are they just treated as armor/plasma = 0 until they complete?
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Or are they just treated as armor/plasma = 0 until they complete? | ||
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
Is it in this case possible to get LAN latency again if the host (observer) leaves the game? And if the two players cannot join each others game, but they can join the host, will they suffer no problems when the host leaves? If both of these are the case, I might be able to get a BWAPI bot that hosts games as an observer so two people who can't host games can still play versus each other. | ||
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WinterViewbot420
345 Posts
On March 27 2016 00:41 LetaBot wrote: In the case that someone hosts a game on ICCUP without Anti-Hack and goes to the oberserver slot, then two people with AH join and go to the player slot: Is it in this case possible to get LAN latency again if the host (observer) leaves the game? And if the two players cannot join each others game, but they can join the host, will they suffer no problems when the host leaves? If both of these are the case, I might be able to get a BWAPI bot that hosts games as an observer so two people who can't host games can still play versus each other. I only sort of understand your question but no, everybody in the lobby needs AH on iCCup (or wD on Fish) for it to work. The game starts with a modified latency and this will not change if somebody without AH leaves | ||
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EJ9FzW9.png) D level game, the protoss sent their 5th probe out to create this. We overpooled. In the game, we ended up building a couple sunkens at the top, a control group of hydras and got a few very late mutas out. We ended up winning, but really should have lost. What are we supposed to do to counter this? | ||
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Scarbo
294 Posts
On March 27 2016 00:41 LetaBot wrote: In the case that someone hosts a game on ICCUP without Anti-Hack and goes to the oberserver slot, then two people with AH join and go to the player slot: Is it in this case possible to get LAN latency again if the host (observer) leaves the game? And if the two players cannot join each others game, but they can join the host, will they suffer no problems when the host leaves? If both of these are the case, I might be able to get a BWAPI bot that hosts games as an observer so two people who can't host games can still play versus each other. Wouldn't it be possible to build a bot that doesn't get detected just for this purpose? | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
On March 28 2016 07:53 Vivi57 wrote: D level game, the protoss sent their 5th probe out to create this. We overpooled. In the game, we ended up building a couple sunkens at the top, a control group of hydras and got a few very late mutas out. We ended up winning, but really should have lost. What are we supposed to do to counter this? Post replay. I'm not positive, but I feel like the timing of your lings on an overpool might be fast enough to be out before his cannon is even finished. Also, since he is going forge > cannon first, his gateway and zealots will be way late. You can counter to his main, which he can defend by making pylon+cannon(s) in his main, but I feel like if you just make a bunch of speedlings and keep sending them out of your base (before he manages to get two zealots out on your ramp) and you should be able to overwhelm one of the two locations. | ||
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Jealous
10239 Posts
On March 28 2016 11:43 Jonoman92 wrote: Post replay. I'm not positive, but I feel like the timing of your lings on an overpool might be fast enough to be out before his cannon is even finished. Also, since he is going forge > cannon first, his gateway and zealots will be way late. You can counter to his main, which he can defend by making pylon+cannon(s) in his main, but I feel like if you just make a bunch of speedlings and keep sending them out of your base (before he manages to get two zealots out on your ramp) and you should be able to overwhelm one of the two locations. Yea, this wall is not even remotely tight. Lings can just drain through everywhere. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
This question is for both when you don't have a natural yet and want to expand, but there are dozens of zealots waiting for you at your natural And for the case that you have a natural up but the protoss wants to break it by massing zealots. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On March 29 2016 21:08 LetaBot wrote: What should you do as a Terran when the Protoss player starts massing Zealots to stop your natural expansion? This question is for both when you don't have a natural yet and want to expand, but there are dozens of zealots waiting for you at your natural And for the case that you have a natural up but the protoss wants to break it by massing zealots. If he has dozens of zealots waiting for you at your natural, and you haven't even expanded yet... haven't you decisively lost already?  In other words, your problems began long before the dozens of zealots showed up. | ||
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
On March 30 2016 00:22 [[Starlight]] wrote: If he has dozens of zealots waiting for you at your natural, and you haven't even expanded yet... haven't you decisively lost already? In other words, your problems began long before the dozens of zealots showed up. Maybe dozens is an exaggeration, but this is for a siege expand build where you have a CC but still have to float it over. But when you want to you see your opponent massed zealots. | ||
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Highgamer
1441 Posts
On March 30 2016 01:14 LetaBot wrote: Maybe dozens is an exaggeration, but this is for a siege expand build where you have a CC but still have to float it over. But when you want to you see your opponent massed zealots. Never encountered that situation... I try my luck, but I'm really interested in other people's genius solutions ^^ Is this for a BW-AI? Or for yourself? I would say: [- P has only zealots, so your scouting SCV is alive, so you know what's going on in P's base or know if P expanded or not] - (if no other intel: ) get an ebay (probably have) for turrets and get scan because this looks fishy - get vultures and mines/speed, 1-2 more factories and/or mb starport (to ferry out vultures) - put the tank(s) on the cliffs and get free shots, zone the zealots out as far as possible, get a scout out on the map - don't send individual tanks down the ramp to clear the mineral-line and lose them for naught If P didn't expand (better go on to check every location, but most likely) it's some kind of cheese or all-in. Turret/bunker/mine up and survive, no need to float CC right now. Build up army for a very cautious break-out. If P is expanding you should be able to break out with vultures eventually and carefully place your CC, no need to rush, expect P to charge in or goons or shuttle-play. edit: and if it's really just a sea of zealots build a sea of vultures and kill everything until there are too many cannons in your way | ||
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Capresis
United States518 Posts
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Jealous
10239 Posts
On March 30 2016 01:54 Highgamer wrote: Never encountered that situation... I try my luck, but I'm really interested in other people's genius solutions ^^ Is this for a BW-AI? Or for yourself? I would say: [- P has only zealots, so your scouting SCV is alive, so you know what's going on in P's base or know if P expanded or not] - (if no other intel: ) get an ebay (probably have) for turrets and get scan because this looks fishy - get vultures and mines/speed, 1-2 more factories and/or mb starport (to ferry out vultures) - put the tank(s) on the cliffs and get free shots, zone the zealots out as far as possible, get a scout out on the map - don't send individual tanks down the ramp to clear the mineral-line and lose them for naught If P didn't expand (better go on to check every location, but most likely) it's some kind of cheese or all-in. Turret/bunker/mine up and survive, no need to float CC right now. Build up army for a very cautious break-out. If P is expanding you should be able to break out with vultures eventually and carefully place your CC, no need to rush, expect P to charge in or goons or shuttle-play. edit: and if it's really just a sea of zealots build a sea of vultures and kill everything until there are too many cannons in your way I can't agree with this advice. If the opponent is clearly going 2+ Gate mass Zealot, what is the point of getting Engineering Bay or Academy/Scan (not to mention both), especially if your scouting SCV should be alive as you said? You are wasting valuable resources, and on 1 base in the early game that equates to time that you do not have. Going Starport may be a valid option, but I wouldn't use them to ferry, but to drop harass the Protoss main which should be undefended given that the enemy is going mass Zealot inside your base; not like they will be to do anything about your Vultures anyway? The Dropship harass will serve as scouting as well if you lost your SCV. You definitely don't need a bunker to hold Zealots, all you need is SCVs repairing your wall and Vultures/Tanks/Marines standing behind it. What I do agree with is the fact that your Siege Tanks should be able to land free hits on the Zealots in your natural without issue (if you went Siege-Expand; if you didn't, then that's fine). He will be forced to either evacuate or hide in the edges of your natural on most maps. You can probably make another Factory (if you don't want to go for Dropships) and still be ahead of a 2 Gate Zealot masser because your Vultures will fry his army post haste. When you move out you send your Vultures, which with proper micro should force the Zealots to run away or fight, either alternative leading to their death and your ability to lay mines and protect your delayed natural. If a Protoss does 2 Gate Zealots vs. Terran, they will be behind on not just their expansion but also their tech (more importantly, detection), which means you can go pure Vulture/Mines when you've determined this. Zealots have no chance against the. You should have determined this after 1, maximum 2 Siege Tanks if you are going Siege-Expand/FD. Siege shouldn't even be necessary against Zealots, to be honest. | ||
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Scarbo
294 Posts
On March 30 2016 04:28 Jealous wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 30 2016 01:54 Highgamer wrote: Never encountered that situation... I try my luck, but I'm really interested in other people's genius solutions ^^ Is this for a BW-AI? Or for yourself? I would say: [- P has only zealots, so your scouting SCV is alive, so you know what's going on in P's base or know if P expanded or not] - (if no other intel: ) get an ebay (probably have) for turrets and get scan because this looks fishy - get vultures and mines/speed, 1-2 more factories and/or mb starport (to ferry out vultures) - put the tank(s) on the cliffs and get free shots, zone the zealots out as far as possible, get a scout out on the map - don't send individual tanks down the ramp to clear the mineral-line and lose them for naught If P didn't expand (better go on to check every location, but most likely) it's some kind of cheese or all-in. Turret/bunker/mine up and survive, no need to float CC right now. Build up army for a very cautious break-out. If P is expanding you should be able to break out with vultures eventually and carefully place your CC, no need to rush, expect P to charge in or goons or shuttle-play. edit: and if it's really just a sea of zealots build a sea of vultures and kill everything until there are too many cannons in your way I can't agree with this advice. If the opponent is clearly going 2+ Gate mass Zealot, what is the point of getting Engineering Bay or Academy/Scan (not to mention both), especially if your scouting SCV should be alive as you said? You are wasting valuable resources, and on 1 base in the early game that equates to time that you do not have. Going Starport may be a valid option, but I wouldn't use them to ferry, but to drop harass the Protoss main which should be undefended given that the enemy is going mass Zealot inside your base; not like they will be to do anything about your Vultures anyway? The Dropship harass will serve as scouting as well if you lost your SCV. You definitely don't need a bunker to hold Zealots, all you need is SCVs repairing your wall and Vultures/Tanks/Marines standing behind it. What I do agree with is the fact that your Siege Tanks should be able to land free hits on the Zealots in your natural without issue (if you went Siege-Expand; if you didn't, then that's fine). He will be forced to either evacuate or hide in the edges of your natural on most maps. You can probably make another Factory (if you don't want to go for Dropships) and still be ahead of a 2 Gate Zealot masser because your Vultures will fry his army post haste. When you move out you send your Vultures, which with proper micro should force the Zealots to run away or fight, either alternative leading to their death and your ability to lay mines and protect your delayed natural. If a Protoss does 2 Gate Zealots vs. Terran, they will be behind on not just their expansion but also their tech (more importantly, detection), which means you can go pure Vulture/Mines when you've determined this. Zealots have no chance against the. You should have determined this after 1, maximum 2 Siege Tanks if you are going Siege-Expand/FD. Siege shouldn't even be necessary against Zealots, to be honest. Reason to get detection is because of zealot into DT rush. If your scout is alive there are ways you can check for that but it's hard to be sure. I agree that ebay and academy is too much but you should get detection. | ||
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Jealous
10239 Posts
On March 30 2016 06:03 Scarbo wrote: Reason to get detection is because of zealot into DT rush. If your scout is alive there are ways you can check for that but it's hard to be sure. I agree that ebay and academy is too much but you should get detection. If it's 2 Gate Zealot before you can move out of Siege-Expand or FD, there is no way he can afford Assimilator + 3 on Gas + Cyber + Citadel + Templar Archives + DT before you move out with either of those. I'm working off that basis, because the only way a Protoss can have that many Zealot (although, admittedly, the number is in question at the moment because "dozens" was an obvious exaggeration) is from 2 Gate Zealot mass. If there are 5 or more Zealot then I think it's safe to go CC before Engineering Bay based on personal experience. If you made a wall in preparation for Siege Expand then there is even less reason to get detection before CC... You can always repair and only be marginally behind a Protoss going DT off of 2 Gates. In fact, I played a game very similar to the situation which the OP is referring to just yesterday as Terran, but there was no mass-Zealot. It was an RvR me T him P. He went 9 Probe scout and first-scouted me as Terran. He already had 1 Zealot on the way so he made that one and that's it. By the time I was trying to secure my natural by floating CC, he had a DT there, but I made Engineering Bay AFTER CC and had a Turret up on my ledge before he even had an opportunity to push up my ramp with it. I just pushed with Turrets to my natural. If I had time to do this out of Siege-Expand with a CC before EBay against 1 Zealot into 2 Gate DT, there is no way that 2 Gate Zealot mass can have DT earlier than the build that this Protoss did. That means that you can go Engineering Bay after CC safely, and mines should be enough to guard your expansion after you chase the Zealots out with Vultures. Going both Engineering Bay and Academy is foolish. I forgot to address the latter question, which was "What to do when the Protoss is trying to break your natural with mass Zealot?" I've personally done a build like this, 3 Gate Speed Zealot after 1 Dragoon to block ramp and deny scout. I have had success with it but I feel that as soon as you see only 1 Dragoon and no expansion for Protoss when you are already on 2 bases, you should know something is up. The natural course in that situation is Turrets + mines. Mines would pretty much destroy any Zealot all-in, not to mention the Vultures that you keep in your natural behind them. | ||
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Highgamer
1441 Posts
Just two things though: - I never said T should get the Ebay before CC, where did you get that from? I meant that in a no-scout situation, when you have 2 tanks and the CC lifted, you see zealots in the natural... you should get turrets because it could be anything and you won't be able to move down the ramp for a while. I also mentioned that the ebay should normally already be built with a normal siege-expo. The academy you can cut of course if you manage to get an SCV or vulture out on the map, but believe it or not, some people have problems getting that done and just want a scan... - I tried to make clear that normally one should be able to get a good scout of what P is doing with the initial SCV-scout, see P building more than 2 zealots, scout P's natural constantly. I put that condition into parentheses though, because firstly: If the OP truely goes and asks on the forum how to deal with a few zealots in the natural, I assume you cannot expect that he/she gets a perfect read on the opponent either, nor can you expect the opponent to follow a standard build-oder... One of us misunderstood. I don't think OP is talking about pre-CC zealot-pressure, but about surprise-zealots and lots of them camping the natural later on when one expects just a few goons. | ||
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Jealous
10239 Posts
On March 30 2016 06:52 Highgamer wrote: Nice to see this theorycrafting ensue, I knew people would have more specific stuff to say. Just two things though: - I never said T should get the Ebay before CC, where did you get that from? I meant that in a no-scout situation, when you have 2 tanks and the CC lifted, you see zealots in the natural... you should get turrets because it could be anything and you won't be able to move down the ramp for a while. I also mentioned that the ebay should normally already be built with a normal siege-expo. The academy you can cut of course if you manage to get an SCV or vulture out on the map, but believe it or not, some people have problems getting that done and just want a scan... - I tried to make clear that normally one should be able to get a good scout of what P is doing with the initial SCV-scout, see P building more than 2 zealots, scout P's natural constantly. I put that condition into parentheses though, because firstly: If the OP truely goes and asks on the forum how to deal with a few zealots in the natural, I assume you cannot expect that he/she gets a perfect read on the opponent either, nor can you expect the opponent to follow a standard build-oder... One of us misunderstood. I don't think OP is talking about pre-CC zealot-pressure, but about surprise-zealots and lots of them camping the natural later on when one expects just a few goons. I was mostly going off of what LetaBot said about "don't have a natural yet, and want to expand." I took this as being in the time frame of before you put down CC for Siege-Expand or FD, at which point Protoss could imaginably have 5 Zealot blocking the natural. I figured you were referring to this scenario. What you say about skill and scout dependence is true, but we should be talking about ideal scenarios not categorically noob-friendly ones IMO. If someone gets in the habit of making extra tech and buildings to make up for mechanical lacking, they will never progress - better to tell them the "right" thing to do rather than what might be most effective for their hypothetical level, which we are not aware of. | ||
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Highgamer
1441 Posts
On March 30 2016 07:45 Jealous wrote: If someone gets in the habit of making extra tech and buildings to make up for mechanical lacking, they will never progress This is wrong. Ideal advice is not always good advice, not if the complexity of the advice hinders it's application. It's an old discussion that I don't want to heat up, but I think that you can severely delay the already slow progress of a casual player if you only give theoretically perfect advice that the player is not capable of practically because currently he lacks the time/willpower/endurance... you can say you don't want to help such a person, well, I wouldn't mind. I see now ^^. I mainly answered to the second post of OP, where he stated the case of a finished highground-CC which to me is the standard version of the siege-expo. I didn't even remember that he also asked how to deal with zealot pressure on the nat in general, also in the form of frontal zealot-busts on the natural (well it's wall, correctly sieged - or unsieged - tanks, repair, micro and/or mines if already researched). | ||
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