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[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-19 09:34:11
March 19 2016 09:33 GMT
#5041
On March 17 2016 16:40 lib_ wrote:
what can i do as zerg vs turtle terran (long on 2 or 3 base) who is going mech + liberators? (gold player)

+ Show Spoiler +
You quit SC2 and move to the better game, BW.





User was warned for this post
User was warned for being hilarious
WinterViewbot420
Profile Blog Joined December 2015
345 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-19 09:54:36
March 19 2016 09:53 GMT
#5042
On March 19 2016 18:33 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2016 16:40 lib_ wrote:
what can i do as zerg vs turtle terran (long on 2 or 3 base) who is going mech + liberators? (gold player)

+ Show Spoiler +
You quit SC2 and move to the better game, BW.




Tbh I think a huge thing holding SC2 players back is the sheer skill of other players. If you hop on Fish their definition of a noob player is someone that isn't pro. People with ten games under their belt will crush you just because everybody in Korea knows the game.

Not only that, but iCCup is a wasteland compared to Fish or even SC2. I lost well over 400 games before taking my first win against a player with more than 100 games because I just didn't like how bad iCCup was and decided to learn through Fish. On iCCup people lag, people cheat, iCCup antihack is several years old, etc.
plast1c
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany101 Posts
March 19 2016 10:08 GMT
#5043
On March 19 2016 18:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:
why wouldnt it?
just because its gate core gate it doesnt mean you forgo the robotics. there is almost no build that cant get obs out fast enough to block dts. the only reason people lose against dt is if they go for like one of the following:
3 gate (can block in certain maps and depending on how quickly you build your robotics. if you go for a push then you will probably lose but if you get your obs out and def you are way ahead. making the decision to build the robotics blindly is risky though, as you wont be able to push as strongly and reaver builds will cause you trouble)
4 gate
reaver rush (still doable. get your obs out asap after shuttle reaver whilst trying to stall, meanwhile do as much damage as you can with your reaver. in an ideal scenario you will both lose lots of probes but you end up with a stronger fight composition)
dt all in (2 dts out of 2 gates vs 1 dt cannon expand)


Thanks!
kinda right, kinda wrong
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-20 03:11:20
March 19 2016 14:06 GMT
#5044
On March 17 2016 07:47 B-royal wrote:
Do you think reaver's gas cost is justifiable? 100 gas seems so low...It finally makes sense how reavers just keep on coming and coming when the protoss is doing a reaver/corsair strat.

I'm not one of those ppl who thinks 1.08 BW balance is 'the Hand of God Almighty' and is 110% perfect and flawless in absolutely every way. But even I can't ever recall thinking, "Gee, Reavers are too cheap."

Yah, they're easy on the gas, but 200 minerals for the reaver plus 75 more for a full load of scarabs... and then you still need a 200 mineral Shuttle to use it offensively, preferably with speed upgrade (another 200/200). Adds up.

The only thing that ever bugged me about Reaver costs is the Reaver Capacity upgrade... always feels too pricey at 200/200. Sooo not worth it. 150/150 would at least be halfway reasonable.


User was warned for being hilarious
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-19 15:27:30
March 19 2016 14:53 GMT
#5045
On March 19 2016 23:06 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2016 07:47 B-royal wrote:
Do you think reaver's gas cost is justifiable? 100 gas seems so low...It finally makes sense how reavers just keep on coming and coming when the protoss is doing a reaver/corsair strat.

I'm not one of those ppl who thinks 1.08 BW balance is 'the Hand of God Almighty' and is 110% perfect and flawless in absolutely every way. But even I can't ever recall thinking, "Gee, Reavers are too cheap."

Yah, they're easy on the gas, but 200 minerals for the reaver plus 75 more for a full load of scarabs... and then you still need a 200 mineral Shuttle to use it offensively, preferably with speed upgrade (another 200/200). Adds up.

The only thing that ever bugged me about Reaver costs is the Reaver Capacity upgrade... always feels too pricey at 200/200. Sooo not worth it, 150/150 would at least be halfway reasonable.



Agreed, 100 gas cost is fine especially since reavers are already not a unit you want to mass (+ quite mineral heavy)! [except sair/reaver special pvz strat which yeah I personally don't like much, hydras seem too weak against it, and it's the biggest reason for the imbalance on island maps for pvz right?^^] Agreed capacity upgrade could be lowered a bit, maybe damage upgrade too.. The way these upgrades are priced make them only researched lategame and in PvZ, in a rather straightforward way (when you start using reavers in late pvz, you'll probably just get these asap since at this point 200/200 is usually a small proportion of your income and pretty much always worth it, except maybe not always capacity as it's hard to guarantee any reavers will be able to fire more than 5 shots in a row^^ +even about 7 can be fired in a row without capacity if you just keep ordering more scarabs after the first is fired). Compared to other utility upgrades or tech of the same price, it's not that useful, so you'd spend the resources on other things in midgame. If they were a little bit cheaper we could see more upgrading reavers in midgame PvP/PvT. The reavers, when you get more of them, they're also control heavy to make them effective and keep them alive, so that their low gas cost is good. They often just die quickly to storm and tanks and maybe only get to fire once or twice, they don't really have a lot of HP on top of low mobility and mineral heavy cost. If you had to spend more gas to build them on top of that, it would be even less interesting to make more than 2 (include extra shuttle(s) cost, usually, so even more mineral heavy, though these can be used for other stuff too before/after reaver death but put in danger by usage of reavers.....)
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
March 19 2016 18:45 GMT
#5046
How do you deal with protoss expansions that are protected by multiple reavers (2-4), cannons and a couple of templars (1-2).

This stuff always feels almost impossible to break, like I'm just throwing away resources (and the game) trying to break this, but it's just not happening.

Guardians can be effective, but templars and corsairs deal with them really easily making them a gambit. Ultra/ling/lurkers/swarm just tends to die instantly. Lurkers/ultras get wrecked by reavers while zerglings get destroyed by storms.

I know drops can be effective, but it can also backfire really fast and hard.

I'm thinking that in this case, you basically just need queens to deal with this in a cost effective manner. Just like you need queens to be able to handle terran mech late game. Queens can broodling the templar and then you have several options again. Guardians become more useful again, ultra/ling/lurker/swarm can now possibly break the expansion.
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-19 20:34:05
March 19 2016 20:33 GMT
#5047
Pure guardian with a good split should be fine, with the odd devourer to deal with emergency sairs(2 storms for every guard). With ground I guess you need to plague everything first
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-19 22:57:39
March 19 2016 22:40 GMT
#5048
yeah the point is your strength as zerg is you are stronger than P at attacking anywhere you want, it depends on all the settings you might have in the game, and you don't want P to be able to set up an even number of bases with 200/200 and a lot of defenses (but that means you lost the advantage), but if you're not in that situation in an "even" game you actually have the advantage as Z to decide where you want to attack and with how much (or potentially not to attack and instead make P need to attack you by growing your eco/defense/tech). Your defense as Z keep in mind is extremely strong locally likewise, with lurk+sunk+spore+swarm+stuff, extremely effective, and P cannot drop you as much and your drop defense is stronger. So the best way to think of how to attack in a very fortified P defense as this, is to make that P need to move this defense, or to attack elsewhere (another base, or drop, or pick at units on the map, etc). If reavers are absent, Swarm owns P defense. Guardians are also a potential solution depending on how much he has to deal with them and how many muta/devourers/scourge you have to kill corsairs or scouts. HTs can block guardians but you can make him spend too many storms and then your ground stuff becomes more powerful against this spot too, you can also likely force them to suicide into those guards as they storm. Finally there is not one answer to this question, it depends on the situation of each game and you can make different choices. Also, reavers are very strong, but they can't tank much. If there isn't too many zeals/goons with the canons+HT+reavers, you can probably throw in a bunch of ultralisks and glings and wreak them (with swarm to deny canon damage, plague also very good). If there are zeals and goons you'll likely need to add lurkers............ hydras ofc still can be useful in that mix. I don't think you ever really need to use queens to deal with P, but that doesn't mean they are not useful. You just don't need them.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10361 Posts
March 20 2016 05:16 GMT
#5049
On March 20 2016 03:45 B-royal wrote:
How do you deal with protoss expansions that are protected by multiple reavers (2-4), cannons and a couple of templars (1-2).

This stuff always feels almost impossible to break, like I'm just throwing away resources (and the game) trying to break this, but it's just not happening.

Guardians can be effective, but templars and corsairs deal with them really easily making them a gambit. Ultra/ling/lurkers/swarm just tends to die instantly. Lurkers/ultras get wrecked by reavers while zerglings get destroyed by storms.

I know drops can be effective, but it can also backfire really fast and hard.

I'm thinking that in this case, you basically just need queens to deal with this in a cost effective manner. Just like you need queens to be able to handle terran mech late game. Queens can broodling the templar and then you have several options again. Guardians become more useful again, ultra/ling/lurker/swarm can now possibly break the expansion.

Maybe drop their main instead? I don't see the point in killing an expansion that has so many defenses on it. Strike where the enemy is weakest, not strongest imo.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-20 11:38:13
March 20 2016 11:37 GMT
#5050
On March 20 2016 07:40 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
yeah the point is your strength as zerg is you are stronger than P at attacking anywhere you want, it depends on all the settings you might have in the game, and you don't want P to be able to set up an even number of bases with 200/200 and a lot of defenses (but that means you lost the advantage), but if you're not in that situation in an "even" game you actually have the advantage as Z to decide where you want to attack and with how much (or potentially not to attack and instead make P need to attack you by growing your eco/defense/tech). Your defense as Z keep in mind is extremely strong locally likewise, with lurk+sunk+spore+swarm+stuff, extremely effective, and P cannot drop you as much and your drop defense is stronger. So the best way to think of how to attack in a very fortified P defense as this, is to make that P need to move this defense, or to attack elsewhere (another base, or drop, or pick at units on the map, etc). If reavers are absent, Swarm owns P defense. Guardians are also a potential solution depending on how much he has to deal with them and how many muta/devourers/scourge you have to kill corsairs or scouts. HTs can block guardians but you can make him spend too many storms and then your ground stuff becomes more powerful against this spot too, you can also likely force them to suicide into those guards as they storm. Finally there is not one answer to this question, it depends on the situation of each game and you can make different choices. Also, reavers are very strong, but they can't tank much. If there isn't too many zeals/goons with the canons+HT+reavers, you can probably throw in a bunch of ultralisks and glings and wreak them (with swarm to deny canon damage, plague also very good). If there are zeals and goons you'll likely need to add lurkers............ hydras ofc still can be useful in that mix. I don't think you ever really need to use queens to deal with P, but that doesn't mean they are not useful. You just don't need them.


Paragraphs are good.

You are allowed to use more than one.


User was warned for being hilarious
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-20 12:21:57
March 20 2016 12:09 GMT
#5051
On March 20 2016 20:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2016 07:40 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
yeah the point is your strength as zerg is you are stronger than P at attacking anywhere you want, it depends on all the settings you might have in the game, and you don't want P to be able to set up an even number of bases with 200/200 and a lot of defenses (but that means you lost the advantage), but if you're not in that situation in an "even" game you actually have the advantage as Z to decide where you want to attack and with how much (or potentially not to attack and instead make P need to attack you by growing your eco/defense/tech). Your defense as Z keep in mind is extremely strong locally likewise, with lurk+sunk+spore+swarm+stuff, extremely effective, and P cannot drop you as much and your drop defense is stronger. So the best way to think of how to attack in a very fortified P defense as this, is to make that P need to move this defense, or to attack elsewhere (another base, or drop, or pick at units on the map, etc). If reavers are absent, Swarm owns P defense. Guardians are also a potential solution depending on how much he has to deal with them and how many muta/devourers/scourge you have to kill corsairs or scouts. HTs can block guardians but you can make him spend too many storms and then your ground stuff becomes more powerful against this spot too, you can also likely force them to suicide into those guards as they storm. Finally there is not one answer to this question, it depends on the situation of each game and you can make different choices. Also, reavers are very strong, but they can't tank much. If there isn't too many zeals/goons with the canons+HT+reavers, you can probably throw in a bunch of ultralisks and glings and wreak them (with swarm to deny canon damage, plague also very good). If there are zeals and goons you'll likely need to add lurkers............ hydras ofc still can be useful in that mix. I don't think you ever really need to use queens to deal with P, but that doesn't mean they are not useful. You just don't need them.


Paragraphs are good.

You are allowed to use more than one.



Well sometimes I do^^ if I just want to make a quick general reply I write like this
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-21 01:16:44
March 21 2016 01:10 GMT
#5052
On March 19 2016 18:53 WinterViewbot420 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2016 18:33 [[Starlight]] wrote:
On March 17 2016 16:40 lib_ wrote:
what can i do as zerg vs turtle terran (long on 2 or 3 base) who is going mech + liberators? (gold player)

+ Show Spoiler +
You quit SC2 and move to the better game, BW.




Tbh I think a huge thing holding SC2 players back is the sheer skill of other players. If you hop on Fish their definition of a noob player is someone that isn't pro. People with ten games under their belt will crush you just because everybody in Korea knows the game.

Not only that, but iCCup is a wasteland compared to Fish or even SC2. I lost well over 400 games before taking my first win against a player with more than 100 games because I just didn't like how bad iCCup was and decided to learn through Fish. On iCCup people lag, people cheat, iCCup antihack is several years old, etc.


you should know what you talk about. It's a p2p server just like fish, so your ingame lag is not affected by it by definition. Additionally, the amount of people hacking is presumably quite low. The only hack commonly being complained about is the disc hack and it's very easy for iccup admins to correct the score and punish accordingly.

€: oh your banned and won't reply..
Broodwar for life!
LetaBot
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
Netherlands557 Posts
March 23 2016 20:05 GMT
#5053
What is the code ( the :flag: one) for the unknown country flag on teamliquid ( the one with a red X)?
If you cannot win with 100 apm, win with 100 cpm.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10361 Posts
March 23 2016 21:26 GMT
#5054
On March 24 2016 05:05 LetaBot wrote:
What is the code ( the :flag: one) for the unknown country flag on teamliquid ( the one with a red X)?

Do you by chance mean ICCup?

If I understood your question correctly, then in my layman experience that icon comes up for a variety of countries and in some cases is simply an error during registration (there are people with country codes like 53 and x, but there are also people from places like New Caledonia which come up as NC but have no flag on the site so they get x flag).
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
LetaBot
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
Netherlands557 Posts
March 23 2016 22:14 GMT
#5055
On March 24 2016 06:26 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2016 05:05 LetaBot wrote:
What is the code ( the :flag: one) for the unknown country flag on teamliquid ( the one with a red X)?

Do you by chance mean ICCup?

If I understood your question correctly, then in my layman experience that icon comes up for a variety of countries and in some cases is simply an error during registration (there are people with country codes like 53 and x, but there are also people from places like New Caledonia which come up as NC but have no flag on the site so they get x flag).


I was wondering if the x flag also exists on TeamLiquid.
If you cannot win with 100 apm, win with 100 cpm.
Ty2
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1434 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-24 02:23:26
March 24 2016 01:50 GMT
#5056
--- Nuked ---
Writer
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States788 Posts
March 24 2016 06:16 GMT
#5057
On March 24 2016 10:50 Ty2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2016 03:45 B-royal wrote:
How do you deal with protoss expansions that are protected by multiple reavers (2-4), cannons and a couple of templars (1-2).

This stuff always feels almost impossible to break, like I'm just throwing away resources (and the game) trying to break this, but it's just not happening.

Guardians can be effective, but templars and corsairs deal with them really easily making them a gambit. Ultra/ling/lurkers/swarm just tends to die instantly. Lurkers/ultras get wrecked by reavers while zerglings get destroyed by storms.

I know drops can be effective, but it can also backfire really fast and hard.

I'm thinking that in this case, you basically just need queens to deal with this in a cost effective manner. Just like you need queens to be able to handle terran mech late game. Queens can broodling the templar and then you have several options again. Guardians become more useful again, ultra/ling/lurker/swarm can now possibly break the expansion.

I feel like you can't get caught up in the semantics of playing. You merely just have a lot more units than your Protoss opponent. If Protoss already has virtually impregnable defenses then you're probably doing something wrong earlier in the midgame. The approach I feel to the question of late game scenarios is how to prevent them in the first place and at what I assume at your level of play is a more appropriate approach.

I'm a little wary when you discuss using Queens. No amount of theory crafting will help you if you don't have the mechanics to back them up. The theory sounds nice but the practical application of late game control might not be there when even your fundamental skills of mechanics are lacking. You should work on your fundamentals, much less any late game cost efficiency scenarios. I'm assuming from your post history you're not like B+ rank so I'd say merely focus on having better macro to have the units to go head to head with Protoss.

Also, you can't treat the game like a black or white scenario, where there's a basic cure all against Zerg attacks the way you describe how useless all the zerg units are in the face of some protoss units. The theatre of war is expanded all over the entire map, merely attack the least defended expansions, do multipronged attacks, Zerg's signature tactic in the late game, and a lot more. Also, as stated before, letting Protoss get to that stage of defenses probably indicates a factor earlier in the game went horribly wrong.

To sum up what I'm basically saying, just focus on your fundamentals before flying off. I would be happy to help you however you want to have help. I wish good tidings upon you, B-Royal.


The bold part is very true. The entire post is good. This idea has been shared in different forms in the past when high(er) level players give advice to low(er) level players.

Up to a certain point the easiest solution to your losses is to macro harder
NAKR`flying
Probemicro
Profile Joined February 2014
3708 Posts
March 26 2016 03:38 GMT
#5058
has anyone ever done a conclusive "mineral analysis" on the Hunters map? (which are fast minerals, bad minerals etc.)
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10361 Posts
March 26 2016 04:14 GMT
#5059
On March 26 2016 12:38 Probemicro wrote:
has anyone ever done a conclusive "mineral analysis" on the Hunters map? (which are fast minerals, bad minerals etc.)

I doubt it. I know there was an in-depth one for Python many years ago. I feel if someone did it for Hunters they would have made it public.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-26 10:40:05
March 26 2016 10:39 GMT
#5060
On March 20 2016 21:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2016 20:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:
On March 20 2016 07:40 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
yeah the point is your strength as zerg is you are stronger than P at attacking anywhere you want, it depends on all the settings you might have in the game, and you don't want P to be able to set up an even number of bases with 200/200 and a lot of defenses (but that means you lost the advantage), but if you're not in that situation in an "even" game you actually have the advantage as Z to decide where you want to attack and with how much (or potentially not to attack and instead make P need to attack you by growing your eco/defense/tech). Your defense as Z keep in mind is extremely strong locally likewise, with lurk+sunk+spore+swarm+stuff, extremely effective, and P cannot drop you as much and your drop defense is stronger. So the best way to think of how to attack in a very fortified P defense as this, is to make that P need to move this defense, or to attack elsewhere (another base, or drop, or pick at units on the map, etc). If reavers are absent, Swarm owns P defense. Guardians are also a potential solution depending on how much he has to deal with them and how many muta/devourers/scourge you have to kill corsairs or scouts. HTs can block guardians but you can make him spend too many storms and then your ground stuff becomes more powerful against this spot too, you can also likely force them to suicide into those guards as they storm. Finally there is not one answer to this question, it depends on the situation of each game and you can make different choices. Also, reavers are very strong, but they can't tank much. If there isn't too many zeals/goons with the canons+HT+reavers, you can probably throw in a bunch of ultralisks and glings and wreak them (with swarm to deny canon damage, plague also very good). If there are zeals and goons you'll likely need to add lurkers............ hydras ofc still can be useful in that mix. I don't think you ever really need to use queens to deal with P, but that doesn't mean they are not useful. You just don't need them.


Paragraphs are good.

You are allowed to use more than one.



Well sometimes I do^^ if I just want to make a quick general reply I write like this


Just havin' some fun with ya.

But srsly, it is pretty much illegible that way.
User was warned for being hilarious
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