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On March 04 2016 02:55 sickkungen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2016 12:19 WinterViewbot420 wrote:On February 28 2016 11:50 Scarbo wrote:On February 28 2016 11:37 [[Starlight]] wrote:On February 28 2016 01:04 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
As Protoss I had this problem a bit later in games, figured my preferred answer was making some scouts^^ These last few posts in the thread have me headscratching a bit... are ppl really losing to 'guardian rushes' and the like a lot? 'Cuz I almost never see guards in my games... and probably 98% of pro games I've watched. And when I do see it in pro games, it usually doesn't work. Is it like a recent shift in the meta or something?  It's common at lower levels (iccup), since the unit has very low micro requirements and its a relatively unexpected strategy. The guy that posted doesn't seem to be low level though, but maybe he got a streak of guardian games. I just started BW about two months ago and I'm only E on Fish. I'm definitely low level. I think it's just part of being shitty at the game and not understanding the matchups enough yet. I've watched the game for years but never played it so I know what's going on when I see it, but I have very bad judgement beyond my first scout unless it's something super strange. nS.miku 7-114 praisemiku 17-120 Melee games aswell of which most games are not even close to ladder level. I'm sure you are E.
I play on a throwaway, take a look at my ZerO to herO thread. I play that many games in about three days
ninja edit: I off race on the nS one, and praisemiku is a dead account. Feel free to add the first one, I'm always chilling in the clan channel when I'm not on a different account
edit2: grammar, I'm fucking retarded when I wake up lol
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How the hell do I mute 포인트ANN?
I ask here because Koreans get super offended and I come off as rude when I ask this. I get they spent months worth of points on that and all, but I really don't care what somebody farming games has to say about their cat or what store makes the best chicken.
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How do I beat tosses who proxy gate you and build a pylon to block your wall? Been losing to that shit twice and it's driving me mad. Do I pull scvs to kill the pytlon and wall or do I build 2 rax in my base to fend it off?
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On March 07 2016 18:10 ppshchik wrote:
How do I beat tosses who proxy gate you and build a pylon to block your wall? Been losing to that shit twice and it's driving me mad. Do I pull scvs to kill the pytlon and wall or do I build 2 rax in my base to fend it off?
if its proxy 1 gate get your rines and scv to play merry go around with the zealots until u get a vult
if its proxy 2 gate build a bunker near cc, repair imba, get vults
...you went 1 rax fe instead? gl to you.
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On March 07 2016 18:10 ppshchik wrote:
How do I beat tosses who proxy gate you and build a pylon to block your wall? Been losing to that shit twice and it's driving me mad. Do I pull scvs to kill the pytlon and wall or do I build 2 rax in my base to fend it off?
Additionally to what Probemicro wrote:
What map? On 4player-maps Protoss takes a considerable risk by proxying, in 2 out of 3 games you should get your wall up anyways (I think...). So you take a minor risk to possibly having to micro vs the pylon-block, don't get frustrated by 2 of such games in a row.
The following might not be optimal because it 'wastes' some mining time (optimal is perfect micro I guess...), but it's safe.
If you rely on a wall I assume you're not confident in your marine/scv-micro? Then make 100% sure you get your depot started before the probe can block it. Just scout at the same time that you build your barracks and be ready to bring an SCV to start the depot before the gas if necessary (or stop building the rax for a moment and plant the depot with the same SCV). If necessary wait with your scouting-SCV in your natural or on your ramp until you're sure you can plant the 2nd depot safely.
If he's super quick you might also have to stop the SCV that's being built to have enough minerals (if he's even quicker he'll build the gate in your base... in that case attack the gate ^^).
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Shuttle has a child?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/itRxq1l.png)
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Someone knows the USEast Battle.Net channel for Fastest? I am ashamed, but I forgot it.
Something like op Euro) or something, but its empty and I am quite sure this channel aint empty, because it at least have a channel bot.
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"safe" builds for a zerg in each matchup to start ironing out macro? a name (ie "X pool") is all i need
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On March 08 2016 04:55 chrisolo wrote:
Someone knows the USEast Battle.Net channel for Fastest? I am ashamed, but I forgot it.
Something like op Euro) or something, but its empty and I am quite sure this channel aint empty, because it at least have a channel bot.
Heathen!
I never knew there was an official Fastest channel, I only knew of low/bgh channels back in the day, even when I did play fastest. Ah, the days of tiny, pogi, dok...
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On March 09 2016 05:39 shimmering119 wrote:
"safe" builds for a zerg in each matchup to start ironing out macro? a name (ie "X pool") is all i need
ZvZ: 9 pool, 9 gas, 8 overlord, drone.
ZvT: 12 hatch, 13 pool, 14 hatch, 14 gas (excellent build order)
ZvP: overpool or 12 hatch (be wary of cannon rushes)
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I noticed that Flash usually places an extra depot when he FDs, as opposed to Hiya for example, who does CC on 34, cutting SCV at 30, leaving place for 2 vults, placing CC, and making the depot immediately after. I thought that version was more economical with the faster CC? Or what are the differences?
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On March 09 2016 07:48 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2016 05:39 shimmering119 wrote:
"safe" builds for a zerg in each matchup to start ironing out macro? a name (ie "X pool") is all i need ZvZ: 9 pool, 9 gas, 8 overlord, drone. ZvT: 12 hatch, 13 pool, 14 hatch, 14 gas (excellent build order) ZvP: overpool or 12 hatch (be wary of cannon rushes)
For ZvT, I think 12 pool is the better build because it keeps Terran honest... 12 hatch is so passive, Terran can 14cc or Rax FE with very few marines and no bunker if you choose such a passive build. 12 hatch is better for a macro opening but you're most likely going to be behind Terran on eco, no?
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the only thing 12pool has going for is that its better than 12 hatch at dealing with bbs and 8rax.
and honestly you dont really need that, in 12 hatch with early scouting and perfect drone pull and micro you can decently hold 8raxoff, tho not 100%,more like 50-50 or depend on players responses. worst off bbs, though bbs is somewhat uncommon these days because its too allinsh for terran, 8rax is much superior since you can pull back and resume normal play even if zerg deals with it well or went for early pool
also 12pool sucks against factory opening. your earlier lings count for nothing against inc vults. your nat hatch will be late so creep might not be in time for sunk to ward off vult. also terran can ling tight wall off depot-rax-fact in bottom 2 bases of fs, so ling allin is pointless
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On March 09 2016 20:37 fazek42 wrote:
I noticed that Flash usually places an extra depot when he FDs, as opposed to Hiya for example, who does CC on 34, cutting SCV at 30, leaving place for 2 vults, placing CC, and making the depot immediately after. I thought that version was more economical with the faster CC? Or what are the differences?
I also thought about this, I think the reason for that is, that as far as I saw, he always goes for a quick 2 Fac followup timing and for that, the immediate income of the additional scvs is probably better than the earlier CC for a tick more money later on.
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On March 10 2016 00:28 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2016 07:48 B-royal wrote:On March 09 2016 05:39 shimmering119 wrote:
"safe" builds for a zerg in each matchup to start ironing out macro? a name (ie "X pool") is all i need ZvZ: 9 pool, 9 gas, 8 overlord, drone. ZvT: 12 hatch, 13 pool, 14 hatch, 14 gas (excellent build order) ZvP: overpool or 12 hatch (be wary of cannon rushes) For ZvT, I think 12 pool is the better build because it keeps Terran honest... 12 hatch is so passive, Terran can 14cc or Rax FE with very few marines and no bunker if you choose such a passive build. 12 hatch is better for a macro opening but you're most likely going to be behind Terran on eco, no?
The only optimized build that I know off which starts with 12 pool is 2 hatch muta, so when you do 12 pool, you have to go 2 hatch.
(See Zero vs Flash on Match Point).
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How can you efficiently clean up mines as zerg? It often goes ok by sending in zerglings to suicide until he starts supporting his important mine fields with vultures rendering them completely ineffective. I'm losing all of my late game ZvT's because of this.
Also, I know to use drops but after a certain point they get quite ineffective when he has turrets preventing you from dropping his main/2nd main and he has enough goliaths on the field.
I've thought about getting the hydralisks upgrades and using a group or so to clean up very big minefields without losing any resources at all. They can also deal with the vultures. The hydralisks also help killing vessels and if I manage to break through a position, they can also kill a floating command center.
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On March 09 2016 20:37 fazek42 wrote:
I noticed that Flash usually places an extra depot when he FDs, as opposed to Hiya for example, who does CC on 34, cutting SCV at 30, leaving place for 2 vults, placing CC, and making the depot immediately after. I thought that version was more economical with the faster CC? Or what are the differences?
What Cryoc wrote (quick 2fact follow up) might be the reason, but what crossed my mind is that, in the games I have seen so far where Flash goes FD, he always builds 6 marines instead of the usual 4, even when he didn't scout a particularly aggressive build from Protoss like 2gate (correct me if I'm wrong). That might be the reason why he needs that extra depot (because cutting vultures or even more SCVs is not an option).
As for the 6 marines, I think it could be to increase the chances of going far/doing damage with the FD, as for Flash an FD is quite a commitment to pre-CC units compared to his standard TvP-build, the 1rax expand. Thus he makes this "opening-timing-push" a little stronger.
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6 marines is standard except maybe cross position (some go 4, some still make 6). Goon control nowadays is just too good to get away with 4 if you want to push out even a bit. For why depot first or CC first (with 6 marines), no idea.
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On March 10 2016 21:36 B-royal wrote:
How can you efficiently clean up mines as zerg? It often goes ok by sending in zerglings to suicide until he starts supporting his important mine fields with vultures rendering them completely ineffective. I'm losing all of my late game ZvT's because of this.
Also, I know to use drops but after a certain point they get quite ineffective when he has turrets preventing you from dropping his main/2nd main and he has enough goliaths on the field.
I've thought about getting the hydralisks upgrades and using a group or so to clean up very big minefields without losing any resources at all. They can also deal with the vultures. The hydralisks also help killing vessels and if I manage to break through a position, they can also kill a floating command center.
theres a reason why zvt is probably the hardest matchup in starcraft (in my opinion anyway)
if you had the resources for everything, the mines really arent much of a problem because as you said you can just get a handful of hydras and go mine clearing.
in practice though, you need gas for scourge, lurkers, ultras, upgrades, mutas maybe, defilers etc
on top of that you need the apm to maintain map pressure constantly so that the number of mines on the map doesnt become uncontrollable
and then you need the macro to actually pump out units constantly enough to actually do damage. not to mention being able to make plays here and there with plague on key units such as vessels, sniping vessels with scourge or mutas, dark swarming, guerrilla warfare etc
basically if you plan on going late game in zvt all you can do is grind games until you get faster at doing everything, because tbh most of the things you need to do in zvt arent 'hard' from a strategic standpoint. you just need the apm to be able to do all of them together
the most important thing would be maintaining map control once terrans' m&m loses its effectiveness and you have your lurkers. preventing terran from mining in the first place is way better than trying to clean that up later.
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On March 11 2016 07:50 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2016 21:36 B-royal wrote:
How can you efficiently clean up mines as zerg? It often goes ok by sending in zerglings to suicide until he starts supporting his important mine fields with vultures rendering them completely ineffective. I'm losing all of my late game ZvT's because of this.
Also, I know to use drops but after a certain point they get quite ineffective when he has turrets preventing you from dropping his main/2nd main and he has enough goliaths on the field.
I've thought about getting the hydralisks upgrades and using a group or so to clean up very big minefields without losing any resources at all. They can also deal with the vultures. The hydralisks also help killing vessels and if I manage to break through a position, they can also kill a floating command center.
theres a reason why zvt is probably the hardest matchup in starcraft (in my opinion anyway) if you had the resources for everything, the mines really arent much of a problem because as you said you can just get a handful of hydras and go mine clearing. in practice though, you need gas for scourge, lurkers, ultras, upgrades, mutas maybe, defilers etc on top of that you need the apm to maintain map pressure constantly so that the number of mines on the map doesnt become uncontrollable and then you need the macro to actually pump out units constantly enough to actually do damage. not to mention being able to make plays here and there with plague on key units such as vessels, sniping vessels with scourge or mutas, dark swarming, guerrilla warfare etc basically if you plan on going late game in zvt all you can do is grind games until you get faster at doing everything, because tbh most of the things you need to do in zvt arent 'hard' from a strategic standpoint. you just need the apm to be able to do all of them together the most important thing would be maintaining map control once terrans' m&m loses its effectiveness and you have your lurkers. preventing terran from mining in the first place is way better than trying to clean that up later.
I had the same thought that it's not really about a specific method to clear mines, but to be so good overall that T cannot lay a gigantic mine-field in the first place.
If you get well through the muta- and early lurker-phase, establish your 3rd and then 4th base and eco in time when you get swarm, you should be able to clear enough mines using mostly lings only and/or leftover mutas, some hydras, whatever you have.
Normally you can have enough units to start causing problems for T during his mech-transition, break out of his (soft-)contains on your natural and 3rd/4th, and not let the mine-fields get out of hand in the first place. Remember that all those mines have to be laid down manually by the T, so you should also find the time to send out lings in similar intervalls.
The key is to know what lategame-goal you work towards, to be solid in macro and all the different fields of unit-control that Zerg needs (first lings, then mutas, lurkers, swarm, ultra-ling, generally organizing your armies and attacking with them) - then mines should be dangerous and annoying, but not able to contain or lock you down you completely.
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EPT
