On September 20 2013 13:06 Phyanketto wrote: So, as a terran, one of the most important things for me is pushing out to either hit a timing where protoss doesn't have a lot, or simply to push out enough to take a third. When exactly do I do that? I push out when I feel like I have enough, but I always get crushed. Is it that I'm going with the wrong unit composition? Not enough stuff? Are my timings too late?
Why did I lose this game?
It's going to be really hard to give you specific advice, because in the vod you opened 2 fact expo, which is an objectively terrible build in this day and age.
The slowest you should be expoing in a standard TvP are with siege expand or FD. Any slower than that and unless your going for an all in build, you've already missed all the timings and are at an unassailable build order driven economic disadvantage.
2 Facts builds are not timing attacks you respond to any sort of scouting with, they are basically preplanned all ins in the current metagame, and have been for a long time. 2 fact into defensive expo, or 1 fact port, or 2 fact port or really any build where you get more than 1 rax and 1 factory and some depots before expo are all essentially all-in builds in this day and age, you either do crippling damage to your opponent or you've already lost the game.
We would be able to give more meaningful advice if you took your nat faster, there is a 2 fact timing attack (usually off 1 rax expo opening) that is sometimes used to punish an incredibly greedy toss taking a third off virtually no units. But if you open 2 fact off 1 base, just go and try kill them, there is no real subtlety and timing to it, it's such an outdated opening that if the game isn't effectively over in 5 minutes, then you've already lost.
Huh, I didn't know that. Suppose I'm off to research my builds more.
On September 20 2013 13:06 Phyanketto wrote: So, as a terran, one of the most important things for me is pushing out to either hit a timing where protoss doesn't have a lot, or simply to push out enough to take a third. When exactly do I do that? I push out when I feel like I have enough, but I always get crushed. Is it that I'm going with the wrong unit composition? Not enough stuff? Are my timings too late?
It's going to be really hard to give you specific advice, because in the vod you opened 2 fact expo, which is an objectively terrible build in this day and age.
The slowest you should be expoing in a standard TvP are with siege expand or FD. Any slower than that and unless your going for an all in build, you've already missed all the timings and are at an unassailable build order driven economic disadvantage.
2 Facts builds are not timing attacks you respond to any sort of scouting with, they are basically preplanned all ins in the current metagame, and have been for a long time. 2 fact into defensive expo, or 1 fact port, or 2 fact port or really any build where you get more than 1 rax and 1 factory and some depots before expo are all essentially all-in builds in this day and age, you either do crippling damage to your opponent or you've already lost the game.
We would be able to give more meaningful advice if you took your nat faster, there is a 2 fact timing attack (usually off 1 rax expo opening) that is sometimes used to punish an incredibly greedy toss taking a third off virtually no units. But if you open 2 fact off 1 base, just go and try kill them, there is no real subtlety and timing to it, it's such an outdated opening that if the game isn't effectively over in 5 minutes, then you've already lost.
I think that perception is mostly due to the popular maps. Sadly there are so few Terrans and even fewer aggressively minded Terrans nowadays that people play like 75% FS 15% Python and 10% other maps. FS and Python offer not a single terrain feature that is advantageous to early aggressive Terran play. Things that work in your favor if you open 2 fact are highground, narrow chokes and buildable terrain close to the natural and of course short rush distances. Even if you don't manage to cripple your opponent with the first attack the first 3 features can enable you to set up a strong contain outside of the P's natural and expo behind it. A few maps with some of the features: New Wind and Cloud: Buildable highground (and some buildable lowground that you can secure with tanks on the highground) outside the natural. Destination: 2 narrow bridges that P has to cross. Match Point: Good siege position on the lowground to range P's natural with just a small ramp leading to it and short rush distances.
On September 21 2013 01:53 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On September 20 2013 13:06 Phyanketto wrote: So, as a terran, one of the most important things for me is pushing out to either hit a timing where protoss doesn't have a lot, or simply to push out enough to take a third. When exactly do I do that? I push out when I feel like I have enough, but I always get crushed. Is it that I'm going with the wrong unit composition? Not enough stuff? Are my timings too late?
It's going to be really hard to give you specific advice, because in the vod you opened 2 fact expo, which is an objectively terrible build in this day and age.
The slowest you should be expoing in a standard TvP are with siege expand or FD. Any slower than that and unless your going for an all in build, you've already missed all the timings and are at an unassailable build order driven economic disadvantage.
2 Facts builds are not timing attacks you respond to any sort of scouting with, they are basically preplanned all ins in the current metagame, and have been for a long time. 2 fact into defensive expo, or 1 fact port, or 2 fact port or really any build where you get more than 1 rax and 1 factory and some depots before expo are all essentially all-in builds in this day and age, you either do crippling damage to your opponent or you've already lost the game.
We would be able to give more meaningful advice if you took your nat faster, there is a 2 fact timing attack (usually off 1 rax expo opening) that is sometimes used to punish an incredibly greedy toss taking a third off virtually no units. But if you open 2 fact off 1 base, just go and try kill them, there is no real subtlety and timing to it, it's such an outdated opening that if the game isn't effectively over in 5 minutes, then you've already lost.
I think that perception is mostly due to the popular maps. Sadly there are so few Terrans and even fewer aggressively minded Terrans nowadays that people play like 75% FS 15% Python and 10% other maps. FS and Python offer not a single terrain feature that is advantageous to early aggressive Terran play. Things that work in your favor if you open 2 fact are highground, narrow chokes and buildable terrain close to the natural and of course short rush distances. Even if you don't manage to cripple your opponent with the first attack the first 3 features can enable you to set up a strong contain outside of the P's natural and expo behind it. A few maps with some of the features: New Wind and Cloud: Buildable highground (and some buildable lowground that you can secure with tanks on the highground) outside the natural. Destination: 2 narrow bridges that P has to cross. Match Point: Good siege position on the lowground to range P's natural with just a small ramp leading to it and short rush distances.
I feel like it would be really easy to set up a siege contain on Aztec, and then once you kill the natural, it's gg.
On September 21 2013 01:53 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On September 20 2013 13:06 Phyanketto wrote: So, as a terran, one of the most important things for me is pushing out to either hit a timing where protoss doesn't have a lot, or simply to push out enough to take a third. When exactly do I do that? I push out when I feel like I have enough, but I always get crushed. Is it that I'm going with the wrong unit composition? Not enough stuff? Are my timings too late?
It's going to be really hard to give you specific advice, because in the vod you opened 2 fact expo, which is an objectively terrible build in this day and age.
The slowest you should be expoing in a standard TvP are with siege expand or FD. Any slower than that and unless your going for an all in build, you've already missed all the timings and are at an unassailable build order driven economic disadvantage.
2 Facts builds are not timing attacks you respond to any sort of scouting with, they are basically preplanned all ins in the current metagame, and have been for a long time. 2 fact into defensive expo, or 1 fact port, or 2 fact port or really any build where you get more than 1 rax and 1 factory and some depots before expo are all essentially all-in builds in this day and age, you either do crippling damage to your opponent or you've already lost the game.
We would be able to give more meaningful advice if you took your nat faster, there is a 2 fact timing attack (usually off 1 rax expo opening) that is sometimes used to punish an incredibly greedy toss taking a third off virtually no units. But if you open 2 fact off 1 base, just go and try kill them, there is no real subtlety and timing to it, it's such an outdated opening that if the game isn't effectively over in 5 minutes, then you've already lost.
I think that perception is mostly due to the popular maps. Sadly there are so few Terrans and even fewer aggressively minded Terrans nowadays that people play like 75% FS 15% Python and 10% other maps. FS and Python offer not a single terrain feature that is advantageous to early aggressive Terran play. Things that work in your favor if you open 2 fact are highground, narrow chokes and buildable terrain close to the natural and of course short rush distances. Even if you don't manage to cripple your opponent with the first attack the first 3 features can enable you to set up a strong contain outside of the P's natural and expo behind it. A few maps with some of the features: New Wind and Cloud: Buildable highground (and some buildable lowground that you can secure with tanks on the highground) outside the natural. Destination: 2 narrow bridges that P has to cross. Match Point: Good siege position on the lowground to range P's natural with just a small ramp leading to it and short rush distances.
I feel like it would be really easy to set up a siege contain on Aztec, and then once you kill the natural, it's gg.
You shouldn't underestimate that you have to get to the highground for the natural/third first. Any good protoss will force you to fight on the ramp and the outcome of the battle will be much worse on your side.
you right click a vespene geyser without a building on it with workers. same for mineral patches. the workers will no longer collide with other units and therefore can move through blocked ramps etc. however, this cant be done if the mineral patch or geyser is in fog. for example you cant click a fogged mineral patch and expect your scvs to go through everything. however, if you click a mineral patch that you had vision of before it goes into fog, your workers will not collide with other units
you cant. if you have previously not scouted anything, the only way to go through a ramp with units on it would be to see a mineral patch from the lower half of the ramp. there is pretty much no map that allows you to do this though
On September 24 2013 21:06 Meffyx wrote: What is the advantage of having a locked-in probe grouped with your corsairs?
It stacks the corsairs on top of each other, making it harder for scourge to pick them off, and easier to control. See http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Mutalisk_Harassment#Grouping for an example of how it's done with Mutalisks (the same is done but with a probe and corsairs for Protoss).
On September 24 2013 13:27 juvenal wrote: What exactly is "gas walk" & "return cargo glitch" and how it's done? I've heard it allows you to go up blocked ramps without previous scouting.
The return cargo glitch is when your peon is carrying minerals or gas, you can hit C to send it into maynard mode, if you spam C and right click a lot it's sometimes possible to squeeze over a unit blocking the ramp, it's really difficult to do though.
Gas walk is a lot easier to do but it's against iccup ladder rules (afaik? maybe it's just stack attack), it's the same way you do the stacked worker attack, hold down shift and spam right click a vespene geyser then, still holding shift, tell it to move where you want it to go, it will go into maynard mode and go straight through any blocking units.
Thanks a lot! So either way you can't manually control all the micro movements while glitching a worker up the ramp, that's what I was curious about. Btw is there any specific rules how to set many rally points at once? I failed to see one: sometimes one just hotkeys new production facilities and then moves the screen to the rally point; sometimes it's f2-f4 usage; sometimes the minimap is just enough.
On September 24 2013 23:54 juvenal wrote: Thanks a lot! So either way you can't manually control all the micro movements while glitching a worker up the ramp, that's what I was curious about. Btw is there any specific rules how to set many rally points at once? I failed to see one: sometimes one just hotkeys new production facilities and then moves the screen to the rally point; sometimes it's f2-f4 usage; sometimes the minimap is just enough.
The standard is to use f2-f4, it's the most difficult but also the fastest way once you can do it efficiently, hotkeying them is the second fastest way and is easier to do.
EPT
