EPTill play a game with this build and post is as soon as possible just to shut you up
PvZ: The Main-Line - Page 5
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
ill play a game with this build and post is as soon as possible just to shut you up | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
I can see your problems VS spire tech, but simply try to use them either with sairs or before spire. You can influence the tech of a Z or simply scout. Im sure youve seen quite a few reps of reavers doing very well, so its not really a debate. Its just nony trying to convince you that your being short-sighted. Most notably watch PPPP vs infinty. Hard to do that with shuttles full of lots. Reavers are SO good because they are very very very economical when used correctly. You see kill counts of 45 in the pros, and normal users getting anywhere from 20-50 kills Vs zergs of their skill level. Also, reaver are VERY good , even vital on alot of islandish or large twisty maps. i.e. NON-lt. You really shouldnt completely dismiss something if your basing everything on LT play. Nony is 100% correct. The game isnt all about unit cost. its about usage and unit choice. 10 zealots fucking suck when your lurk contained. Its far better to save the minerals for the right units or to double expo or something else when you do break out. PS there was a game just this week in the pro leagues where a protoss was being dominated early game and mass-expoed against. Zerg went spire and got destroyed with fast reavers and sairs. Zerg had map control and LOST it due to reavers. IMO, and honestly--in fact--reavers are normally not about fighting the zerg, they are about dropping the bases. There is more than one way to establish map superiority. One of those ways is to kill their army and take the center, but the other is to kill their income which prevents them from matching you in troop buildup, thereby giving YOU the map control. | ||
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
On October 26 2004 07:16 ahk-gosu wrote: ps your a fag ill play a game with this build and post is as soon as possible just to shut you up i dont really want to see you play a game. unless its vs someone who is somewhat known. otherwise it will be you vs some east newb that you will rape with queens. When in reality anyone could rape him with anything. Do you have any reps of skilled gamers playing with this strat early game? Im not quite as hostile as you seem to think. I normally overreact and say something insulting then explain my reasoning and back down a tad bit. I really just want you to give concrete, ie good reps, or actual BOs with your strat and protoss reaction in your "ideal" or "normal" circumstances. TO just make blanket statements in a strategy forum and not give specifics and/or BOs adds nothing. That has so far constituted my "problem" with you. I dont feel you add anything but background murmuring. Ive tried to get you to say specific things and support your arguemnts, but you just retreat into yelling things that make no sense. I understand that this is a common reaction people have when they feel pressured. So, I wrote this to let you know, in a non-aggressive manner what I think you should do. It would be helpful to the newbies that read this forum and it would, I think, qualify as contributing to the site. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
i love you. lol ok ok lets be adults about this. i appologize. and to tell you the truth you explained how i was acting also lol. i do overreact and calm down after. im not as bad as some of you guys think i am. also i think i have seen a zerg do this in 2 games. yes this was a pro gamer. one was vs a terran. he brooded the tanks and ensnared the marines which got owned lovely. another was when a zerg used cliffs to kill the protoss assimilators so he wouldnt have a lot of gas and brooded his templars and ensnared his zlots which make them so weak to zerglings and hydras. ill try to look for it but i think i may have deleted them  . | ||
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Brown
Afghanistan367 Posts
On October 26 2004 07:16 ahk-gosu wrote: ps your a fag ill play a game with this build and post is as soon as possible just to shut you up Play it against Reach, ok? | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 26 2004 06:45 NonY wrote: I don't think reavers are good in a straight fight either. But saying you shouldn't get reavers is like saying you shouldnt get 3 zealots against 12 lings because the zealots would lose in a straight fight, but it's obvious you can put the zealots on a ramp and they'll be fine. If you are paying for reavers in a situation where they aren't going to be able to do much for you, then it's a waste. Comparing the cost of units to the cost of other units is a waste of time. What about the situation in which you can get the units? Yes, I can make 10 zealots and some HT's for the cost of a shuttle and 2 reavers, but what's the point when I'm lurker contained? Why should I get zealots/temps when the zerg is spread out over the map, and I'll never be able to move a ground army across the map for the life of me? If you are restricting yourself to "if the zerg has a spire I can't do drops anymore", then your problem isn't strategy.. you just need more control/speed. The expansion doesnt even have to be undefended to drop it, I'll drop 2 reavers in the range of a sunken and micro to kill it with minimal damage to myself.. I'll put reavers in a corner and fight 6-10 hydra. My point is, if you're at the level where you can't even use the reavers for what they're worth, then of course you shouldnt get them... but it doesn't make the strategy less valid for the person with the means to use it. | ||
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
and you're both pretty ok ok be nice | ||
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
Early game, some reavers in a shuttle is a great thing to have, yes, but the knowledge that you 'forced' him to get a spire and own your reavers is hardly going to be much consolation when you lose. If you go reaver/sair vs a cool headed, experienced zerg on temple, he will own your ass 9 times out of 10. On other maps, reaver/sair can be great. On temple, or gaema, or nostalgia, or JRM, not so much. Mathematically and probability speaking, reavers are just a generally inferiour choice on most land maps in pvz. That doesn't mean they never work. That doesn't even necessarily mean you should never ever get them. It means they'll work less often then other things, and it means that when you do get them, it's only to keep a zerg on their toes, not because it's a superiour strategy. | ||
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 27 2004 01:32 Hautamaki wrote: yes, I was only talking about LT play, sorry for not clarifying that. Of course Reavers are awesome on island maps, and some other land maps like Requiem. I don't think the PPPP vs Infinity game was a very good indicator of the effectiveness of reavers though. It was an awesome game sure, but Infinity made a ton of mistakes and missed countless opportunities to win. For like 85% of the game he could probably have easily ended it by just dropping instead of attack moving into the valleys of death. Early game, some reavers in a shuttle is a great thing to have, yes, but the knowledge that you 'forced' him to get a spire and own your reavers is hardly going to be much consolation when you lose. If you go reaver/sair vs a cool headed, experienced zerg on temple, he will own your ass 9 times out of 10. On other maps, reaver/sair can be great. On temple, or gaema, or nostalgia, or JRM, not so much. Mathematically and probability speaking, reavers are just a generally inferiour choice on most land maps in pvz. That doesn't mean they never work. That doesn't even necessarily mean you should never ever get them. It means they'll work less often then other things, and it means that when you do get them, it's only to keep a zerg on their toes, not because it's a superiour strategy. Nice post. The idea of the thread(s) has not been to say that Reaver openings are better than other options, or even viable all the time, but that they are a fully respectable alternative that is no worse than normal Storm based builds. Of course, there are certain situations where the Protoss should go Reaver and situations where he shouldn't -- but this situation is NOT move 1. I think that two important points have been discovered: 1. These strategies are pretty advanced; it takes a lot of effort from the Protoss to make it work. In this case, you might be right: this strategy requires more work than others and this fact might make it less feasible for some people. 2. Those who are capable of putting in the effort will receive full reward for the effort as it will force Zerg to play their game and raise their own work level to match. I believe this is a point in favor of the strategy because this is something Zerg has no control over: it is totally up to the player and depends on whether he has the skills and energy to use this strategy. By the way, you have an excellent website. | ||
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smth_puma
148 Posts
On October 26 2004 22:24 Casper... wrote: since you all actually play bw how about you kick each others asses on SUPER MEGA BATTLE DOT NET instead of arguing like little girls on a forum and you're both pretty ok ok be nice Ｈmm,I'd say I'd love to but....... would you mind telling me where the SUPER MEGA BATTLE DOT NET thing is ? ^^ | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
What is becoming the main line now, as Lurker Containment is losing its edge? It's tough to look at many pro games as they are all so off-the-wall you can't talk about main-line with them. What do you see the most in the games on PGTour, WGTour, and Neo-GameI? | ||
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PtL)ZerG
64 Posts
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
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LibertyTerran
Vietnam711 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 28 2004 00:53 maleorderbride wrote: as mentioned before. most GOOD zs go few lurk contain. That way you get obs but you end up only vs 2-3 lurks anway. I normally just try to strom and forego that tech entirely (if i have sair for cliff obs). im only 1400, so go better players for advice. Yes, that is what I've noticed. What do they do during/after the containment? Mutalisk to Lurker containment is pretty popular these days, and Zerg also seems to be liking quick Hive tech. What else? | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
whatever you have the most of, they'll build to counter it. You're best shot is to just be ahead in upgrades. I'd say my 'main-line' is early double forge. Everything else is academic. If you have too many zealots, he'll stay lurker or switch ultra quickly. If you have too many goons he'll stay low tech and use the gas for mutas into guards. If you reaver he'll spire. Etc etc etc. The best thing to do imo is just be ahead in upgrades, never waste units early/mid game, anticipate his harassment to minimise probe deaths/lost mining time, and if all goes well you'll be comfortably ahead when you break out, with either the army to beat him down a little or the economy to win the late game. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 25 2004 10:48 rednob wrote: After a Private discussion with gg_hertzz I am lead to believe that the replay he is talking about is at http://act.it.sohu.com/war3/report.php?id=242 for those that are interested. :-) Update: The link does not work. See below. I think I found the game Kingdom - Scandal that you are talking about at http://yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=28403. Please update your original post with the working link, just for good measure  | ||
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