Since we're on this topic, i just recently downloaded a (p@6) kingdom vs (z@)12) scandal (think that was his name) where kingdom makes dramatic use of speed zeals against 3 hatch hydra/lurk build. Kingdom pressured the zerg really well, often sending small groups of 6-7 zealots into battle.

I wonder if it's better to sacrifice zeals and force zergs to make static defense and zerglings, humbling the zerg economy, or to just build and confront zerg later on.

Cambium

United States16368 Posts

October 23 2004 00:09 GMT

#22

Speaking of kingdom, he did extremely well vs. Junwi in the semis of MyCube. Some people might get inspired by his PvZ.

SoMuchBetter

Australia10606 Posts

October 23 2004 01:01 GMT

#23

All zerg really needs is the economy to be able to jump straight into ultraling. Lucky for zerg players, they can easily pump cracklings while saving up gas to pour into chamber upgrades and ultralisk ups then later into ultraling itself. Islands also make life much easier for a hive zerg, as with a spore, a nydus and a couple of sunkens, that island isn't going to fall easily.

Sair DT works well against ultraling provided you can pop any lords that try to provide detection. Sair DT are also effective in taking islands away from the zerg. If you can get a shuttle of DT on it and the island is sporeless then you can pop any lords that come for detection then get rid of the nydus. Additionally, If you can act fast enough then you may be able to hit the zerg's bases and take them out as well.

Archons are a must against ultraling. You'll need them as their splash is effective at killing off zerglings as well as being a meat shield comparable to an ultralisk. Try to keep only a small group of templars, and turn the rest into archons. Archons and zealot are the closest thing that protoss can get to ultraling. If you combine them with some storm and decent upgrades then you have yourself a force that can compete with ultraling.

kloownz

26 Posts

October 23 2004 01:16 GMT

#24

interesting, what woul;d you say is more effective ultra/ling muta/ling or guardian/ling??

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33719 Posts

October 23 2004 01:21 GMT

#25

..
They are all meant for different situations.. Geez -_-;;

That doesn't even make sense if you are speaking of cost effective -.-

TreY

United States997 Posts

October 23 2004 02:57 GMT

#26

I played a PvZ last night with 0-0-3 Archons and Zeal.. killed around 200 lings in one shot it seemed... lost the game, but it was the closest I've ever come to beating the guy I played.

hhkx

Canada757 Posts

October 23 2004 04:07 GMT

#27

guardian has too few hp....not too usefull against P,and i have never seen any pro gamers use them against P

pooper-scooper

United States3108 Posts

October 23 2004 05:22 GMT

#28

Ultra-ling is the most effective, muta/ling is the cheapest.

gg_hertzz

2152 Posts

October 23 2004 05:41 GMT

#29

What the heck is that plasma upgrade??

I only see people upgrade attack and shields, but what the fudge is that other thing??

ShabZzoY!

Great Britain760 Posts

October 23 2004 06:12 GMT

#30

400 400 for lvl 3 is a joke :O
I hate to throw that away for my 3-3-2 to be replaced by a shiny 3-3-3

Mora

Canada5235 Posts

October 23 2004 06:23 GMT

#31

On October 23 2004 07:42 ShadowMaster wrote:
Next up -- to you Zerg players: what is required before you can go Ultra/Ling on a normal Lost Temple-esque map and what can the Protoss do to prevent and/or counter it?

depends on the zerg player.

Im a low econ fast hive user.

I usually have a finished hive by the 10 minute mark. my natural expo is all i need. (this is not to pump ultras though).

Lots of counters. My build will always adapt to theirs though, and should be vice versa. If your going for dt/sair/fast(or)mass expo, going fast cracklings off of 2 base won't exactly cut it :O

pinbaLL

Sweden1711 Posts

October 23 2004 07:07 GMT

#32

On October 22 2004 09:58 Casper... wrote:
i am making fries
fries are good
i like to eat fries

rofl

NonYold

United States2814 Posts

October 23 2004 07:42 GMT

#33

There was a trend for Protoss to get assimilators on 12 supply, block ramp with zealots, and go corsairs. Also, there was a trend for Protoss to go goon/reaver as opposed to zealot/templar. In one convenient replay, both are displayed.

Notes about the replay:
1. Zerg that early expand and defend against corsairs are weak against reaver drops. With the corsairs you can harrass overlords, until many hydra gather under many overlords, and reavers can be dropped somewhere else. Also, the corsairs can scout for oncoming hydra, so the reavers can retreat in ample time.

2. Reaver/goon doesn't really work against well-controlled mass hydra in open ground. Unless you have a strong initial attack with the zerg on defense at his natural, you're unlikely to win. In the replay, you can see that you must switch to high templars/zealots at the right time, without getting too weak during the switch.

3. Mid-game reavers are strong (and for that matter, so are late game reavers, although this isn't displayed in this replay) The reavers allow you to be as fast as the Zerg. A speed shuttle can zip around to expansions when you can't afford to commit your army to go across the map to attack an expansion. On the defensive end, reavers flying in to support a nexus only defended by cannons is amazing. Cannons + reavers is a million times stronger than cannons alone.

4. In the replay, look at about 19:45 as the reavers go to 9:00's main, and then return to 9:00's mineral-only to mop up battle. Or at the very end of the replay, a reaver flies to 6:00's natural to attack drones (although it is unsuccessful) at the same time a frontal attack occurs. Basically, this use of the reaver/shuttle is having 2 arms instead of 1. You can be effective in 2 different spots at once, without having to split up your army.

Sorry, the players aren't pros- but I think you'll find they're good enough and it's a decent enough game to analyze.

http://www.duke.edu/~tjw4/PvZmainline.rep

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33719 Posts

October 23 2004 08:08 GMT

#34

Haven't watched game so it's not about that.

Scourges are the god damn spawn of satan for any toss using shutles -_-;;;

NonYold

United States2814 Posts

October 23 2004 08:15 GMT

#35

Scourges are a bitch, but speed shuttle upgrade makes it fair game... I think losing a speed shuttle to scourge is just bad control :O Also, by the time a zerg can really cover a map with scourge to the point where the best controlled shuttle is fucked, your reavers are absolutely wonderful against ultra/ling. If he's got a lot of scourge before ultra/ling, or you aren't confident in your control, then reavers can still be worth their money on defense. In many games, the toss attacks a zerg's expansion, only for the zerg to counter on the toss's base. A good cannon/reaver setup could repel the attack, and if not, the reavers can get some safe hits and fly away without dying.

In any case, if you think you're not gonna see scourge, you're wrong. Most zergs will make a spire ASAP after seeing a shuttle

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33719 Posts

October 23 2004 08:28 GMT

#36

The problem is when you are absolutely forced to leave your shuttle (drop on tech buildings, lurker drop, army getting attacked) and it dies to a scourge which wasn't there 5 seconds ago because it was patroling, or when you just make tiny mistakes. Patrolling scourges are bm ;o Not like I die to them a lot it's just that I can't really do anything with my reaver either -.-

I think it's too risky ;o

IntoTheWow

is awesome32278 Posts

October 23 2004 08:40 GMT

#37

Well if combined with sair shuttles should always be protected. But whats important is the scourge makes him waste gas (as long as they dont hit your shuttles, And your strat becomes more cost-effective. I like Zergs that go into a lot of sunkens vs some fake early preassure as your tech becomes stronger.
I think its one of the most important things in using Goon + rvr. Getting de Zerg to be just a little behind while teching and trying to get goon/rvr to be a "surprise" on them. I mean not letting him to adapt to it. Even if they see your tech option, They will have to be on defensive position till que can finish his spire and you can always wonder around his base and be back at your expo with shuttle to support the cannons. Plus robo provides detection ;o

NonYold

United States2814 Posts

October 23 2004 08:42 GMT

#38

I feel ya- I guess it depends on the style. Also, you can make a more educated decision on reavers by examining how the zerg has played so far. Unfortunately, if you do that, then you are giving the control of the game to your opponent (what foru mentioned) It's a tricky situation :O You are certainly guaranteed to handle your reavers better when you know what you're getting into, as opposed to falling into a situation.. so have confidence in it or don't do it at all

NonYold

United States2814 Posts

October 23 2004 08:45 GMT

#39

Another thing about reavers- it discourages the zerg to take islands. If a zerg takes islands, you better believe he has scourge.. but it's not at all uncommon for a protoss to amass some shuttles and drop the island successfully. Having a speed shuttle with 2 reavers is certainly a headstart on that whole process

RuGbUg

United States2347 Posts

October 23 2004 08:53 GMT

#40

On October 23 2004 16:42 NonY wrote:
http://www.duke.edu/~tjw4/PvZmainline.rep

good post and good replay, you always put yourself out there for criticism. i respect that