EPTPvZ: The Main-Line - Page 3
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
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kloownz
26 Posts
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kloownz
26 Posts
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
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Veigh
Netherlands300 Posts
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On October 24 2004 05:37 Veigh wrote: Damn this is actually one of the few pvz threads in that enormous see of spam that really makes sense yea unlike all othyer "plz I suck at PvZ" posts you can actually learn something from this one  thx all who contribute with awesome posts, appreciate it. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32282 Posts
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
Game Analysis: NonY vs Liquid.Drone, Lost Temple 12 vs 6. Category: Sair + Reaver to Reaver + Goon Replay:http://www.duke.edu/~tjw4/PvZmainline.rep On October 23 2004 16:42 NonY wrote: Notes about the replay: 1. Zerg that early expand and defend against corsairs are weak against reaver drops. With the corsairs you can harrass overlords, until many hydra gather under many overlords, and reavers can be dropped somewhere else. Also, the corsairs can scout for oncoming hydra, so the reavers can retreat in ample time. 2. Reaver/goon doesn't really work against well-controlled mass hydra in open ground. Unless you have a strong initial attack with the zerg on defense at his natural, you're unlikely to win. In the replay, you can see that you must switch to high templars/zealots at the right time, without getting too weak during the switch. 3. Mid-game reavers are strong (and for that matter, so are late game reavers, although this isn't displayed in this replay) The reavers allow you to be as fast as the Zerg. A speed shuttle can zip around to expansions when you can't afford to commit your army to go across the map to attack an expansion. On the defensive end, reavers flying in to support a nexus only defended by cannons is amazing. Cannons + reavers is a million times stronger than cannons alone. 4. In the replay, look at about 19:45 as the reavers go to 9:00's main, and then return to 9:00's mineral-only to mop up battle. Or at the very end of the replay, a reaver flies to 6:00's natural to attack drones (although it is unsuccessful) at the same time a frontal attack occurs. Basically, this use of the reaver/shuttle is having 2 arms instead of 1. You can be effective in 2 different spots at once, without having to split up your army. Tactical Notes: Early game:
Mid Game:
All game:
Strategic Notes: Protoss only built 2 Corsairs all game, but it was enough. Had the Zerg gone for Spire tech, it would have been a different story. The positions (12 vs 6) of the players were definitely favorable to this strategy; in nearer positions (like 12 vs 3) the map control provided by the Corsairs would mean much less and the speed with which Zerg could assault Protoss would make things much more difficult. On the other hand, the Reaver drops would be faster; but this shouldn't provide full compensation. The strategy employed by the Protoss immediately gave the game a very tactical nature as the entire game could be decided by the better macromanagement of either player. This should appeal especially to those players who enjoy micro battles. As effective as this strat was shown to be by NonY, imagine what it could do under the super-human control of a pro like Reach. Zerg was caught off-guard by the unusual strategy and and failed to find either a tactical or a strategic counter to the effective Corsair + Reaver to Reaver + Goon strategy. Tactically he failed to counter the Reavers, losing handfuls of Hydras every time he skirmished with them. Strategically his pure-hydra didn't seem to stand a chance vs. the goon/Reaver and his Mutalisk came too few, too late to help. I would like to re-emphasize the point made by NonY in his original post: notice the timely switch to Storm, in time to prepare for larger battles. Let's face it; you can't micromanage the number of Reavers you would need in a goon+reaver battle vs. hydra combos late in the game. The power of the Reaver is inversely proportional to the relative size of the skirmish. Notice: The Protoss may be forced to expand a little later than with conventional strats, but don't get worried; expanding ~10 minutes under support of upgraded goons and two Reavers is perfectly acceptable. But please don't go sending the Reavers on any expeditions until AFTER your Nexus completes and the base is consolidated. The Power of Corsairs The Protoss kept those two Corsairs alive for a long time, and all the while they provided invaluable services: 1) Emergency damage soaks when things started getting hot for a Reaver Drop: the corsairs would intercept the incoming hydralisks and distract them, giving the Shuttle time to get away. 2) Constant full-map scouting. There were no secrets for the Protoss -- and every experienced Toss player knows how much this means in a PvZ game. 3) As annoying as can be for the Zerg. I mean, really, how would you feel if someone was constantly poking you in the eye? Distracting, no? Could It Work? From this game we can draw the conclusion that hydra tech is rather ineffectual vs. Reaver/Goon, as the hydras melt and going Lurkers would be strategic suicide as both Reavers and Goons counter them while Observers are only half a step away. This severely limits the Zerg options and is likely to put your opponent at a psychological disadvantage as well; notice how such an experienced and respectable player as Liquid.Drone utterly failed to counter it. Of course, one cannot justify such a broad -- and tactically risky -- strategy off of one game; it definitely needs more testing and refining. However, this game definitely shows that it is worth looking in to. | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
http://www.duke.edu/~tjw4/PvZreavers.rep The game shows the awesome utility of reavers on offense and defense. Also, watch the game before you look at it in bwchart. Take note of my micro, macro, and multitask, and try to guess my APM :O | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
ensnare owns on zlots which makes their leg upgrades nearly worthless and the broodlings kills templars. also if you parasite templars they will have to waste them or keep them with their army so you can see where they advance. queens are nice. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
thx | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
I'm not sure which strategy or post you are responding to. However, I agree with you about Queens: they are a great unit and are especially effective against Protoss. I'm sure you've realized that they are also extremely rare from Zerg gamers. If Protoss strategies are forcing the Zerg to use units that were formerly never used, I say good! Of course, DA (which we are seeing much more of lately) > Queen ^-^ Also, I think that parasite-happy players can be countered by hallucinations and, especially, shuttles: pick up the parasited units and suddenly he can't see from them anymore. True, parasite > shuttles, but you have to make concessions somewhere. I use the edit tool almost gratuitoiusly  What are you referring to? Thanks for the posts! | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
Also, I think his discussion on queens was completely out of place and I don't know why he posted it (wrong thread?) :O | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
either you can 1 storm 1 goon hit kill them or... you can use an archon or some zlots to lure the spines away from the front by rushing them past like what you do with firebats or marines when you wanna kill lurkers. ive done this numerous times. archons and goons are a must for killing lurker contain. | ||
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