EPTPvZ: The Main-Line - Page 6
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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worst.player
625 Posts
New Zergs put pressure on quickly rather than powering (which gave toss time). Protoss has to tech quickly enough to reach reavers/sairs/temps (one of the three at least) without exposing their rear end. Progamers either get some D or forgo heavy defense and tech quickly. Option One allows zerg to expand himself and have economic control of the game, which would thus create a do-or-die situation for toss (to pull something out of his ass). Option Two allows zerg to trample over toss. Obviously progamers don't want to lose silly games, so they don't get too little defense and get run over by a pack of hydras. So, they're forced to go to Option One, (if they're teching that is). Then, progamers are governed by the laws of PvZ: 1) Zerg should always have one more gas expo than toss. 2) Upgrades are beyond crucial (+1 atk zlots anyone?) 3) Zerg can adapt to ANY protoss strategy from their strategy. The reverse does not hold true. So, what do tosses do now? Late game zerg wins unless toss has been keeping up with upgs and exps and macro. But, most of the action happens early game. Like oov said, koreans do strats that are meant to win, not adaptive strats. However, zerg is the most adaptive race (guess why). Toss isn't. ShadowMaster - from all your posts I was hoping you were a PvZ guru  . Guess you're stuck with the rest of us who can't figure this matchup out.Reaver-Goon? I can't remember the last time I've seen a pro use that (but I rarely watch pros..) Reaver goon is good against hydras. Some lings too. But 2 gas-base mutas dominates that. Throw in some sairs? Any good Z will scourge them. 1gate-templar-expo? Against American zergs? You'll win. Against good zergs, you'll lose. That's only because Zerg has that easy expo + tech all ready for him, that extra expo of yours really doesn't mean anything. 2 toss base vs 3 zerg base = 1 toss base vs 2 zerg base. Try to keep the base count to a minimum. Especially if you have low APM. 2gate-zlots? Cool on small maps. Especially if you kill him. Maybe an expo with forge would be nice after making citadel (start archives after). ChRh's protoss? Instant win. Cool if you know his style, sux if you don't. I dunno why this guy went terran.  What else is there? Zerg simply dominates protoss. Do any maps balance this match up out? :o | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Generalization doesn't work in SC. Any chobo knows that too | ||
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Chanoipy
Canada320 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On April 16 2005 06:54 SuperJongMan wrote: BUMP! and you are so wrong -_-;; Generalization doesn't work in SC. Any chobo knows that too What the fuck? People are talking builds and counters and you call it generalization? I guess since you're so good this whole thread is wasted becuase you say generalization doesn't "work". Shut the fuck up and don't revive old threads, jesus christ.. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
Lurker containment is the most logical and easiest way for a zerg to ensure a win. One can always use other strategies to great effect, but it will still remain the "best" choice. Only when protoss players skill level is so high that they can get in one or two shots on each of those pesky lurkers and hit them each with a psistorm to kill them we'll see other more popular routes. But I don't see that happening, since getting psistorm that early means that the protoss won't have enough units to venture far enough from his base to get those critical hits in, without being swarmed and trapped by lings. Fuck, old thread. Oh well, at least we know what has been said holds true yet. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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Allko
China297 Posts
thx | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On April 16 2005 14:31 exalted wrote: What the fuck? People are talking builds and counters and you call it generalization? I guess since you're so good this whole thread is wasted becuase you say generalization doesn't "work". Shut the fuck up and don't revive old threads, jesus christ.. Did you read the post above? ... and reviving old threads is better than making multiple copies of the same. This thread is good anyways. Q - How do you stop drone break if you gone 1 gate? I lost twice today to it and they hit around the time I have 3 or so Zealots which sucks... | ||
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Veigh
Netherlands300 Posts
On October 22 2004 11:03 choader wrote: Pretty neat thread. Aesthetically very pleasing. Lurker containment has been in use for a long time too; Nazul beat Grrr... (4-0?) by lurker containing every game, and that was in 2001. http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=3371 But I have noticed, like you have, that lurkers are almost always seen in any zvp lately. I guess the reason is that, on LT at least, it very rarely loses, while the increasing skill of toss players was destroying mass hydra. Players like IntoTheRain with his perfect storms probably contributed. The Kwakka vs Jju game is a decent example, i guess. This is what I think. That is all. Holiemolie, that kwakka vs jju was one hell of a pimp play, especially the last part.... | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
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iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
On April 18 2005 02:58 SuperJongMan wrote: Q - How do you stop drone break if you gone 1 gate? I lost twice today to it and they hit around the time I have 3 or so Zealots which sucks... you should scout this, but it's not always that simple i know, just remember that 1-gate is better backed up by a forge with cannon on ramp if he went lings (ie, not mass drones), especially if he stops gas after 100, cos u know speed is coming. If u don't scout it well in time, get some probes above your ramp and start a sheild battery, also make sure that you don't have only 1 pylon powering your gateway. | ||
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rpf289
United States3524 Posts
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pfff
Belgium1352 Posts
On April 16 2005 14:31 exalted wrote: What the fuck? People are talking builds and counters and you call it generalization? I guess since you're so good this whole thread is wasted becuase you say generalization doesn't "work". Shut the fuck up and don't revive old threads, jesus christ.. imo, if there is one matchup where builds and counters are pretty useless, then it is pvz. pvz strat guides always make a generalization, which imo is the shittiest way to play pvz. | ||
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volair
United States20 Posts
after you get 2 temps with storm and an archon get observers directly after. if he went lurkers you will have detection. in any case, you now have observers to scout. if you know he is going 2 base lurker contain, which you should assume from the beginning, then you may have to get some dragoons after the observers. if your scouting proves otherwise, adapt. if he is going one base tech, throw down 3 cannons. one on each side of your minerals and one to protect the front from lurkers. remember that one cannon wont do crap by itself, they are to support your other units. if he has mutalisks attacking you will need an archon quickly to help your cannons. if he is massing hydras it becomes very obvious very quickly because of his numbers. if you dont have zealot speed and he attacks you with 18+ hydras quit the game immediatly, you just lost. i hope you are better then that. you may want to have 4 temps instead of 2 against pure hydra. dont make any more archons, they are a joke against hydras. | ||
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noob4ever
Denmark59 Posts
I was a little skeptical about that, but this brilliant replay with H_Paul_WII & Tasika show this strategy. The big blob of goons with templar-support, did good against ultraling. The game ends, with the use of some clever magic. http://www.gosugamers.net/admin/replays.php?dl=2303 | ||
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