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PvZ on LT and similar land maps is one of the deepest, most theorized matchups with the most nuances and tricks. Still, it has certain patterns that show through in 80% or more of the good games. After all the rushing, the early harrassments, and the initial thrusts are over, those games that go on see a stabilization as the players secure an expansion or three and build up. I've noticed that the path the game takes has changed over the years.
The Old Mainline: Zealots + Templar vs. Mass Hydra
In the old days, this is what the game would ALWAYS boil down to. You would see the Zerg massing loads of hydras as he expanded and tried to contain the Protoss, until the Protoss is able to finally break out with speedy Zealots and upgraded Templar. The winner of these games was usually the one still standing after the Storm Dance, in which the Protoss attempts to net dozens of hydras with storm and trap them with the speedy zeals, while the Zerg dodges storms and wujins just out of distance time and again with his Hydras, depleting the Protoss Zealots and draining the energy from the Templar.
Resources:
Here is an example of this strategy in an old, pre-replay game between Tillerman and OrkyPriest in this classic battlereport.
A highly entertaining BR demonstrating the power of storm vs. mismanaged hydras, and what not to do vs. 1-base mass hydras.
Trends: The strategy of massing hydras fell into relative disuse shortly following the release of patch 1.09, the +20 HP of the Zealots dramatically increasing their use against Hydralisks. (Thanks Monsen).
However, this strategy is still viable; although the fact that Mass Hydras isn't as effective as it used to be is a definite turn-off for Zerg users, it is still close enough that something like Queens with Ensnare or other slight improvements could make it a force to be reckoned with again. (Thanks Ahk-Gosu)
The Newer Main Line: Lurker Containment. With the weakening of storm to take two hits instead of one against a Lurker, along with Zealots becoming more effective vs. Hydralisks, Zerg began to use those buried devils more often. Soon we began to see even newbies containing the Protoss with lurks. Zergs would then take all the expansions on the map or, especially against weaker players, would actually put a hatch outside the 'toss base and set up a containment of Terran quality with Sunks, Hydras, Zerglings and Lurkers.
The theory of this strategy developed quickly as Zerg began employing Scourge for anti-observer duty and many Protoss players, pro and fan alike, fell to this choking strategy; here, the Protoss would seem to be at an immediate disadvantage due to the containment and the map control of the Zerg.
Reacting to pure Lurker Containment:
fOru vs. Yellow, KPGA 2002.
The Execution: Ultra/Ling. I remember the old days when no one even considered using Ultralisk against Protoss. It was considered useless; you just couldn't win efficiently in a melee fight against 'Toss Zealots, Archons, and Dark Templar. Then someone -- anyone know who/when? -- discovered Ultra/ling. This strategy uses the massive economy advantage which Zerg would so often acquire to crank out fully upgraded Zerglings and Ultralisk and overwhelm the Protoss -- for it was found that these two together could deal out massive amounts of damage and that, while both nearly useless on their own, together they magically created an unstoppable juggernaut. The Ultralisks would easily soak-up and shrug off the Storm's that formerly laid waste to fields of Zerglings and the Zerglings would deal the damage to tear down the Archons and Zealots that would beat the Ultras before.
This "strategy" is in the same category with Protoss mass Carriers: usually an instant win. However, there is a significant difference: Ultra/Ling is both faster and cheaper and, while Carriers leaves the Protoss vulnerable while he still only has a few, any weakness in Ultra/Ling is much less obvious. The only requirement is that the Zerg gets his three working gas bases (and these days, Zerg has been pushing it to even less!).
Countering Ultra/Crackling
First off, everyone should familiarize themselves with Giyom's famous game against LeeChangHoon, one of SC Legacy's Pimpest Plays 2003. He counters beautifully, primarily with Archons and Maelstrom.
Bets, anyone? What are the next up-and-coming trends and strategic "fashions" in the PvZ matchup on regular maps? What are you beginning to see more?
Personally, I think that Reaver + Goon is a definite candidate for up-and-comer. Check it out:
One instructive game.
The official TL.net thread on the matter 
The Point: Post here the tactics and tricks that are required to play these matchups, for both sides. Post the nuances that can turn the tides of a game. Post your questions and problems in these situations.
But, most importantly, post replays that demonstrate what to do, what to watch out for, and what not to do. I have access to webspace, so you only need to send me the replays. You can contact me via PM. I request that the replays meet these criteria:
- High-Level Games (well known players)
- Demonstrate high-level execution of the strategy by the Zerg.
- Demonstrate high-level defense by the Protoss
Replays that also illustrate a key mistake, such as getting storm too late, or going ultra/ling too soon, etc, are also valuable to me.
I will update this post with information and links when possible.
Here is an excellent discussion on the value of units, applicable to all matchups.
General PvZ Tips:
BigBalls Tips
FrozenArbiters Tips
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i am making fries
fries are good
i like to eat fries
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Ah I have been graced with a post from the great Casper...!
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i like fries too
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This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
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MassHydra disappeared after the Zeals got +20 armor -20 shield... should still work to some extend (ensnare gogogo)
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On October 22 2004 09:45 ShadowMaster wrote:
Finally, a little question: why has mass hydra become so much less common? Is it just because Lurker containment seems to promise more?
i find that whenever i go mass hydra, those hydra just get raped by speedlot and storm and dont accomplish anything..
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Pretty neat thread. Aesthetically very pleasing.
Lurker containment has been in use for a long time too; Nazul beat Grrr... (4-0?) by lurker containing every game, and that was in 2001.
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=3371
But I have noticed, like you have, that lurkers are almost always seen in any zvp lately. I guess the reason is that, on LT at least, it very rarely loses, while the increasing skill of toss players was destroying mass hydra. Players like IntoTheRain with his perfect storms probably contributed. The Kwakka vs Jju game is a decent example, i guess.
This is what I think.
That is all.
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Thankyou Monsen. I'd forgotten that the patch affected the Zealot vs. Hydra matchup so much. Also thanks to Choader for those references; that's exactly what I'm looking for!
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im seeing less contain zergs. and mostly of they contain its pretty ez to break out with good storm obs use
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On October 22 2004 11:17 SW)Surv wrote:
im seeing less contain zergs. and mostly of they contain its pretty ez to break out with good storm obs use
At what level of competition are you seeing this, and do you have any good replays of "easy" breakouts?
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Sweden33719 Posts
All levels I would assume, the pros do, others follow :O
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On October 22 2004 11:26 FrozenArbiter wrote:
All levels I would assume, the pros do, others follow :O
My question was directed at whether he was observing this in his own games, or watching the pros. Since I don't yet seem to have VOD priveleges here, I'm a bit out of the pro loop. Also, I haven't seen any main-line PvZ games in a long time -- Protoss have been going out of their way to play bizarre openings and otherwise they play strange maps that don't allow "normal" games. I guess it's better for the observers. Any examples of modern "main line"?
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On October 22 2004 11:17 SW)Surv wrote:
im seeing less contain zergs. and mostly of they contain its pretty ez to break out with good storm obs use
That's true too. I've noticed that much more often these days the zerg will just set up a token contain to buy him sometime to secure his min only and another main or islands or (at 12) a second min only. Since it's hard for toss to expand to another main anyway, this is at least as effective.
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On October 22 2004 12:20 choader wrote: Show nested quote +On October 22 2004 11:17 SW)Surv wrote:
im seeing less contain zergs. and mostly of they contain its pretty ez to break out with good storm obs use That's true too. I've noticed that much more often these days the zerg will just set up a token contain to buy him sometime to secure his min only and another main or islands or (at 12) a second min only. Since it's hard for toss to expand to another main anyway, this is at least as effective.
Excellent I would love it if someone had a few pro replays of Protoss easily breaking out. Thanks.
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I think what he means by less contain is. They get only 4 lurks or so. Just enough to hold the choke. Then tech of to hive and have mass lings. Possibly mutts or muta, but normally just lings.
Then they mass expo and get a few scourge. They just slow you with the minimal input and force you to get obs, goon range, etc. This places the added burden on the toss player to figure out exactly how many goons/whatever is necessary. If the toss gets too much anti-lurk stuff he will die vs the mass lings, probably cracks with 1/1 and 2/2 on the way. On a side note, vs ling/lurk, mass archon and zeals and just a few temps is the way to go
Your from old time BR.com arent you shadowmaster? The name seems almost familiar, plus you take time and effort in your posts. Something thats rare now 
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Game Analysis: fOru vs Yellow, River of Flames, KPGA 2002 (1.09).
Category: Defense against Lurker Containment
Replay: http://yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=11590
Particular Points of Interest:
- Pressure-expanded, an important tactic. He made a point of attacking before/during his expansion attempts, keeping Yellow busy and covering himself. Notice that he lost more zealots than needed with his first attempt, which delayed his initial expansion.
- Sparing use of Cannons. He did not make "cannon grids"; he would only use single cannons, for detection and delay purposes.
- Did not attempt to expand against the Lurkers until he had observers, which he started as soon as he saw the first lurk eggs.
- Made sparing use of Psi storm. He usually only had a single Templar.
- his typical attack force was 1 templar, 1 archon, and zealgoon.
- Once he scouted lurker his zeal-goon was a 1:1 ratio (after he bungled the 4 zealots on his first failed attack).
- He completely breaks out at ~10 goons, 10 zeals, and expands IMMEDIATELY while applying pressure.
- He plays the first half of the game great and the second half awfully (not that I could do better).
fOru employs an excellent, solid templar-tech build against Yellow's 2 hatch in-base, 3 exp lurker build. Notice that he hides his probe and is aware of the Zerg tech choice (i.e- no spire).
Places 1 cannon at minerals, more for emergency detection or delay than actual defense.
Prepares to expand at 10 zealots (48 psi), first placing a cannon near his expansion;
NOTICE: As he is preparing to expand, he moves out with attack force (10 zeal, 1 goon),
psychologically covering his expansion by pressuring the Zerg and "distracting" him.
From an economical standpoint the attack fails miserably as he loses 4 zealots
with no damage done. However, it reveals several lurker eggs hatching and this prompts
him to immediately start a Robo Fac and delay his expansion. He also places down another
gateway. Notice that he doesn't begin the storm upgrade until after the Robo, and he makes
an archon before storm.
1 DT for scout/defence, 4 gateways BEFORE exp in light of the containment,
delaying his exp anyway.
Finally gets exp going at 56 psi, when his observer is finished. Clears it with his force of
6 zeals, 1 goon, 1 templar, 1 DT.
Keeps 1 Archon with his attack force at all times and switches to zeal production until
second gas is up.
Notice very sparing use of Cannons.
Once 2nd gas is up and has ~10 zealots, 1 archon, 1 temp, he switches to pure goons.
Keeps 2-3 observers with his attack force, even in base.
Breaks out at 10-12 dragoons. Expands (3rd base) immediately upon breaking out, while applying
pressure with his goon force.
Does NOT scout well; Zerg expansion at 11:00 was vulnerable.
Once he has broken the containment and his attack force has been reduced, he resumes
zealot production, keeping only 6 dragoons and 3 templar, 2 of which he quicky makes into
an archon after they have stormed.
As fOru seems want to do (I've seen it several times), he really slacks off at the end and the game goes on much longer than it should have.
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Next up -- to you Zerg players: what is required before you can go Ultra/Ling on a normal Lost Temple-esque map and what can the Protoss do to prevent and/or counter it?
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Since we're on this topic, i just recently downloaded a (p@6) kingdom vs (z@)12) scandal (think that was his name) where kingdom makes dramatic use of speed zeals against 3 hatch hydra/lurk build. Kingdom pressured the zerg really well, often sending small groups of 6-7 zealots into battle.
I wonder if it's better to sacrifice zeals and force zergs to make static defense and zerglings, humbling the zerg economy, or to just build and confront zerg later on.
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Speaking of kingdom, he did extremely well vs. Junwi in the semis of MyCube. Some people might get inspired by his PvZ.
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All zerg really needs is the economy to be able to jump straight into ultraling. Lucky for zerg players, they can easily pump cracklings while saving up gas to pour into chamber upgrades and ultralisk ups then later into ultraling itself. Islands also make life much easier for a hive zerg, as with a spore, a nydus and a couple of sunkens, that island isn't going to fall easily.
Sair DT works well against ultraling provided you can pop any lords that try to provide detection. Sair DT are also effective in taking islands away from the zerg. If you can get a shuttle of DT on it and the island is sporeless then you can pop any lords that come for detection then get rid of the nydus. Additionally, If you can act fast enough then you may be able to hit the zerg's bases and take them out as well.
Archons are a must against ultraling. You'll need them as their splash is effective at killing off zerglings as well as being a meat shield comparable to an ultralisk. Try to keep only a small group of templars, and turn the rest into archons. Archons and zealot are the closest thing that protoss can get to ultraling. If you combine them with some storm and decent upgrades then you have yourself a force that can compete with ultraling.
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interesting, what woul;d you say is more effective ultra/ling muta/ling or guardian/ling??
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Sweden33719 Posts
..
They are all meant for different situations.. Geez -_-;;
That doesn't even make sense if you are speaking of cost effective -.-
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I played a PvZ last night with 0-0-3 Archons and Zeal.. killed around 200 lings in one shot it seemed... lost the game, but it was the closest I've ever come to beating the guy I played.
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guardian has too few hp....not too usefull against P,and i have never seen any pro gamers use them against P
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Ultra-ling is the most effective, muta/ling is the cheapest.
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What the heck is that plasma upgrade??
I only see people upgrade attack and shields, but what the fudge is that other thing??
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400 400 for lvl 3 is a joke :O
I hate to throw that away for my 3-3-2 to be replaced by a shiny 3-3-3
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On October 23 2004 07:42 ShadowMaster wrote:
Next up -- to you Zerg players: what is required before you can go Ultra/Ling on a normal Lost Temple-esque map and what can the Protoss do to prevent and/or counter it?
depends on the zerg player.
Im a low econ fast hive user.
I usually have a finished hive by the 10 minute mark. my natural expo is all i need. (this is not to pump ultras though).
Lots of counters. My build will always adapt to theirs though, and should be vice versa. If your going for dt/sair/fast(or)mass expo, going fast cracklings off of 2 base won't exactly cut it :O
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On October 22 2004 09:58 Casper... wrote:
i am making fries
fries are good
i like to eat fries
rofl
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There was a trend for Protoss to get assimilators on 12 supply, block ramp with zealots, and go corsairs. Also, there was a trend for Protoss to go goon/reaver as opposed to zealot/templar. In one convenient replay, both are displayed.
Notes about the replay:
1. Zerg that early expand and defend against corsairs are weak against reaver drops. With the corsairs you can harrass overlords, until many hydra gather under many overlords, and reavers can be dropped somewhere else. Also, the corsairs can scout for oncoming hydra, so the reavers can retreat in ample time.
2. Reaver/goon doesn't really work against well-controlled mass hydra in open ground. Unless you have a strong initial attack with the zerg on defense at his natural, you're unlikely to win. In the replay, you can see that you must switch to high templars/zealots at the right time, without getting too weak during the switch.
3. Mid-game reavers are strong (and for that matter, so are late game reavers, although this isn't displayed in this replay) The reavers allow you to be as fast as the Zerg. A speed shuttle can zip around to expansions when you can't afford to commit your army to go across the map to attack an expansion. On the defensive end, reavers flying in to support a nexus only defended by cannons is amazing. Cannons + reavers is a million times stronger than cannons alone.
4. In the replay, look at about 19:45 as the reavers go to 9:00's main, and then return to 9:00's mineral-only to mop up battle. Or at the very end of the replay, a reaver flies to 6:00's natural to attack drones (although it is unsuccessful) at the same time a frontal attack occurs. Basically, this use of the reaver/shuttle is having 2 arms instead of 1. You can be effective in 2 different spots at once, without having to split up your army.
Sorry, the players aren't pros- but I think you'll find they're good enough and it's a decent enough game to analyze.
http://www.duke.edu/~tjw4/PvZmainline.rep
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Sweden33719 Posts
Haven't watched game so it's not about that.
Scourges are the god damn spawn of satan for any toss using shutles -_-;;;
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Scourges are a bitch, but speed shuttle upgrade makes it fair game... I think losing a speed shuttle to scourge is just bad control :O Also, by the time a zerg can really cover a map with scourge to the point where the best controlled shuttle is fucked, your reavers are absolutely wonderful against ultra/ling. If he's got a lot of scourge before ultra/ling, or you aren't confident in your control, then reavers can still be worth their money on defense. In many games, the toss attacks a zerg's expansion, only for the zerg to counter on the toss's base. A good cannon/reaver setup could repel the attack, and if not, the reavers can get some safe hits and fly away without dying.
In any case, if you think you're not gonna see scourge, you're wrong. Most zergs will make a spire ASAP after seeing a shuttle
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Sweden33719 Posts
The problem is when you are absolutely forced to leave your shuttle (drop on tech buildings, lurker drop, army getting attacked) and it dies to a scourge which wasn't there 5 seconds ago because it was patroling, or when you just make tiny mistakes. Patrolling scourges are bm ;o Not like I die to them a lot it's just that I can't really do anything with my reaver either -.-
I think it's too risky ;o
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is awesome32274 Posts
Well if combined with sair shuttles should always be protected. But whats important is the scourge makes him waste gas (as long as they dont hit your shuttles, And your strat becomes more cost-effective. I like Zergs that go into a lot of sunkens vs some fake early preassure as your tech becomes stronger.
I think its one of the most important things in using Goon + rvr. Getting de Zerg to be just a little behind while teching and trying to get goon/rvr to be a "surprise" on them. I mean not letting him to adapt to it. Even if they see your tech option, They will have to be on defensive position till que can finish his spire and you can always wonder around his base and be back at your expo with shuttle to support the cannons. Plus robo provides detection ;o
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I feel ya- I guess it depends on the style. Also, you can make a more educated decision on reavers by examining how the zerg has played so far. Unfortunately, if you do that, then you are giving the control of the game to your opponent (what foru mentioned) It's a tricky situation :O You are certainly guaranteed to handle your reavers better when you know what you're getting into, as opposed to falling into a situation.. so have confidence in it or don't do it at all
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Another thing about reavers- it discourages the zerg to take islands. If a zerg takes islands, you better believe he has scourge.. but it's not at all uncommon for a protoss to amass some shuttles and drop the island successfully. Having a speed shuttle with 2 reavers is certainly a headstart on that whole process
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good post and good replay, you always put yourself out there for criticism. i respect that
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Excellent notes on the value of Reavers in the PvZ matchup. Salutes to NonY! Checking out the rep now.
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Ooh... a TL.net game! NonY vs. Liquid.Drone... good stuff! Better get back to the game...
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Hey NonY, nice game! Where did you get the BO? It seems pretty solid!
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I made it up myself. A lot of my builds, especially at the time of that game, were original
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actually, sorry p.oss isnt weak, its just hard to control well
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It's hard not to win when most Toss play like they are reading cue cards now. Zerg as well though. Just learn all the cue cards:D
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Damn this is actually one of the few pvz threads in that enormous see of spam that really makes sense
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On October 24 2004 05:37 Veigh wrote:
Damn this is actually one of the few pvz threads in that enormous see of spam that really makes sense
yea unlike all othyer "plz I suck at PvZ" posts you can actually learn something from this one
thx all who contribute with awesome posts, appreciate it.
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is awesome32274 Posts
If you want to see a good reaver/goon usage or maybe some sair dt (dt drops to kill tech included), you should start downloading Fisheye reps. His builds are very solid. He is like 5 minutes ahead in the map always.
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a guy advised me to start building more goons mid/late game. I just played a pgtout pvz and pumped practically pure goons out of 3 bases. It raped the hell out his hydra/ling/ultra force, surprisingly. I had about 6 zealots and 40 goons, was 2 upgrades ahead, and he had maybe 40 lings, 20 hydras, and 9 ultras. I lost I guess about 9 goons and my zealots. The ultras died so fast to the concentrated goon fire, and the lings died shortly after getting through my zealots. The hydras did the best, but still no hell. In the past I would have had an army of maybe 30 zealots with some archon/temp backup. In the future, I'm figuring I'm going to go heavy goons with light templar/zealot support, and archons only if I'm behind in ups vs a hard ling user. Goons seem to do the job against ultras, and in numbers hold their own vs hydra/ling with only minimal zealot/temp support required. At the beginning of the game they're pretty worthless though, unless the zerg is up to some kind of 1 base lurker build or something.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Which is what I said the first time I saw your strat guide
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I would like to post a few notes of my own on the instructive game and ideas NonY posted. I include NonY's valuable notes here first.
Game Analysis: NonY vs Liquid.Drone, Lost Temple 12 vs 6.
Category: Sair + Reaver to Reaver + Goon
Replay:http://www.duke.edu/~tjw4/PvZmainline.rep
On October 23 2004 16:42 NonY wrote:
Notes about the replay:
1. Zerg that early expand and defend against corsairs are weak against reaver drops. With the corsairs you can harrass overlords, until many hydra gather under many overlords, and reavers can be dropped somewhere else. Also, the corsairs can scout for oncoming hydra, so the reavers can retreat in ample time.
2. Reaver/goon doesn't really work against well-controlled mass hydra in open ground. Unless you have a strong initial attack with the zerg on defense at his natural, you're unlikely to win. In the replay, you can see that you must switch to high templars/zealots at the right time, without getting too weak during the switch.
3. Mid-game reavers are strong (and for that matter, so are late game reavers, although this isn't displayed in this replay) The reavers allow you to be as fast as the Zerg. A speed shuttle can zip around to expansions when you can't afford to commit your army to go across the map to attack an expansion. On the defensive end, reavers flying in to support a nexus only defended by cannons is amazing. Cannons + reavers is a million times stronger than cannons alone.
4. In the replay, look at about 19:45 as the reavers go to 9:00's main, and then return to 9:00's mineral-only to mop up battle. Or at the very end of the replay, a reaver flies to 6:00's natural to attack drones (although it is unsuccessful) at the same time a frontal attack occurs. Basically, this use of the reaver/shuttle is having 2 arms instead of 1. You can be effective in 2 different spots at once, without having to split up your army.
Tactical Notes:
Early game:
- The Corsairs distracted the Zerg Hydras to one area while the Reavers hit
another.
- The Reavers were an invaluable defense from the top of the ramp, raining death down on
clusters of Hydras -- and this was without a shuttle.
Mid Game:
- The timely switch to Storm before battles out-proportioned the Reavers.
All game:
- Protoss who hope to use this strategy must be familiar with the usual Reaver
Dance: loading the Reaver when it is attacked and dropping it as soon as it can, while
the Zerg tries to thwart this by faking at the Reavers, luring a pick-up, and then quickly
destroying the shuttle with focused fire. Oh, how many Reavers have been sunk this way!
Note, however, that this entire tactic can be taken to favor the Protoss by
building surplus shuttles when cash allows. A single extra shuttle immediately renders this
tactic much less effective for the Zerg.
- NonY used a clever Corsair Screen to distract the hydras while the Shuttle made a timely
escape.
Strategic Notes:
Protoss only built 2 Corsairs all game, but it was enough. Had the Zerg gone for
Spire tech, it would have been a different story.
The positions (12 vs 6) of the players were definitely favorable to this strategy;
in nearer positions (like 12 vs 3) the map control provided by the Corsairs would mean much
less and the speed with which Zerg could assault Protoss would make things much more
difficult. On the other hand, the Reaver drops would be faster; but this shouldn't provide full compensation.
The strategy employed by the Protoss immediately gave the game a very tactical nature
as the entire game could be decided by the better macromanagement of either player. This
should appeal especially to those players who enjoy micro battles.
As effective as this strat was shown to be by NonY, imagine what it could do under the
super-human control of a pro like Reach.
Zerg was caught off-guard by the unusual strategy and and failed to find either a tactical
or a strategic counter to the effective Corsair + Reaver to Reaver + Goon strategy.
Tactically he failed to counter the Reavers, losing handfuls of Hydras every time he
skirmished with them. Strategically his pure-hydra didn't seem to stand a chance vs.
the goon/Reaver and his Mutalisk came too few, too late to help.
I would like to re-emphasize the point made by NonY in his original post: notice the
timely switch to Storm, in time to prepare for larger battles. Let's face it; you can't
micromanage the number of Reavers you would need in a goon+reaver battle vs. hydra combos
late in the game. The power of the Reaver is inversely proportional to the relative size
of the skirmish.
Notice: The Protoss may be forced to expand a little later than with conventional
strats, but don't get worried; expanding ~10 minutes under support of upgraded goons and
two Reavers is perfectly acceptable. But please don't go sending the Reavers on any
expeditions until AFTER your Nexus completes and the base is consolidated.
The Power of Corsairs
The Protoss kept those two Corsairs alive for a long time, and all the while they provided
invaluable services:
1) Emergency damage soaks when things started getting hot for a Reaver Drop: the corsairs
would intercept the incoming hydralisks and distract them, giving the Shuttle time to get
away.
2) Constant full-map scouting. There were no secrets for the Protoss -- and every experienced
Toss player knows how much this means in a PvZ game.
3) As annoying as can be for the Zerg. I mean, really, how would you feel if someone was
constantly poking you in the eye? Distracting, no?
Could It Work?
From this game we can draw the conclusion that hydra tech is rather ineffectual vs.
Reaver/Goon, as the hydras melt and going Lurkers would be strategic suicide as both
Reavers and Goons counter them while Observers are only half a step away. This severely
limits the Zerg options and is likely to put your opponent at a psychological disadvantage
as well; notice how such an experienced and respectable player as Liquid.Drone utterly
failed to counter it.
Of course, one cannot justify such a broad -- and tactically risky --
strategy off of one game; it definitely needs more testing and refining. However,
this game definitely shows that it is worth looking in to.
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Here is some more support of my reaver theory that I was talking about...
http://www.duke.edu/~tjw4/PvZreavers.rep
The game shows the awesome utility of reavers on offense and defense. Also, watch the game before you look at it in bwchart. Take note of my micro, macro, and multitask, and try to guess my APM :O
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the thing is if you got mainly a hydra force and you dont spend your gas on lurkers, get queens.
ensnare owns on zlots which makes their leg upgrades nearly worthless and the broodlings kills templars. also if you parasite templars they will have to waste them or keep them with their army so you can see where they advance.
queens are nice.
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shadow master please use the edit tool
thx
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ahk-gosu,
I'm not sure which strategy or post you are responding to. However, I agree with you about Queens: they are a great unit and are especially effective against Protoss. I'm sure you've realized that they are also extremely rare from Zerg gamers. If Protoss strategies are forcing the Zerg to use units that were formerly never used, I say good!
Of course, DA (which we are seeing much more of lately) > Queen ^-^ Also, I think that parasite-happy players can be countered by hallucinations and, especially, shuttles: pick up the parasited units and suddenly he can't see from them anymore. True, parasite > shuttles, but you have to make concessions somewhere.
I use the edit tool almost gratuitoiusly What are you referring to?
Thanks for the posts!
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I think ahk-gosu wants you to edit your subsequent posts into your original post, so that all the info is in one place.
Also, I think his discussion on queens was completely out of place and I don't know why he posted it (wrong thread?) :O
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if you know how to exploit the ai of the lurkers you can take them out ez.
either you can 1 storm 1 goon hit kill them
or...
you can use an archon or some zlots to lure the spines away from the front by rushing them past like what you do with firebats or marines when you wanna kill lurkers.
ive done this numerous times. archons and goons are a must for killing lurker contain.
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A lot of the time P overestimates the Z or vice versa. It's amazing when you feign a strong army and force them to D up while you make an exp and tech.
PvZ is just a mind game. Zerg should always have one more exp than toss. If you're really good toss, you'll keep zerg to two bases at most.
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o i was posting queens about hydras vs zlot templar
and as for the thing i said about the edit tool look on the top of the page 3
look at shadows posts. what i meant was that you should edit your original post instead of posting 3 times.
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wow your a fag ahk-gosu
way to be constructive and pick on minor things when someone is actually attempting to get SOUND advice out to newbs like you.
<3 mora
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On October 24 2004 17:11 ahk-gosu wrote:
the thing is if you got mainly a hydra force and you dont spend your gas on lurkers, get queens.
ensnare owns on zlots which makes their leg upgrades nearly worthless and the broodlings kills templars. also if you parasite templars they will have to waste them or keep them with their army so you can see where they advance.
queens are nice.
so. im assuming that your doing all this of how much gas? Mostly hydra (75%+?). queens nest. then queens and the cost for reasearch. Then wait for them to get enough energy to actually ensnare and broodling.
Thats all well and cute, but there is a reason why queens are seldom used. They have very nice spells, but thats a fair contriubtion of gas and there is no guarantee that you are even going to live long enough to get a return on it. Personally, I think ensnare can be VERY good when used with mass hydra. However, if you are doing this off 2 gas early game then you will some problems getting enough hydras that a few storms wont just kill your pitiful army.
Please dont say your going to ensnare and broodling all the hydras. This strat could work if toss 1 gates into sair then expo. Get a third geyser, run in with a few lings in front and 8 or so hydras to pick off templar and keep his count low. Stall into an ok econ with 3 gas and +1 hydras with queeens and upgrades. It would take superb micro and picking off templar constantly to really pull off.
Your words have some merit ahk. But your tone leaves something to be desired. You say things about strategy that are eiher simply unfeasible, or extremely difficult to set up the situation where it is an acceptable or desirable move. I think you need to stop pretending that your really good at this game and just preface your comments with "It would be cool if you played a shitty toss player and..."
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On October 24 2004 16:56 NonY wrote: Here is some more support of my reaver theory that I was talking about... http://www.duke.edu/~tjw4/PvZreavers.repThe game shows the awesome utility of reavers on offense and defense. Also, watch the game before you look at it in bwchart. Take note of my micro, macro, and multitask, and try to guess my APM :O
Thanks for providing the reps nony. It makes strategies quite a bit more substantial when you see them actually work vs a skilled player who didnt make major mistakes or horible judgement calls.
shadowmaster
I think instead of simply a description of each strat you should also link a replay that is a sterling example of the relavant strategy. If someone really wants to do a BO or new strat this would help quite a bit more than blind text. Great job so far though. It takes alot of time and initiative to type out and categorize as much as you have, even with the help youve recieved from the community.
ahk-gosu.
before you say anything, the reason I didnt use the edit tool is because half of the people in this forum are illiterate. They skip over any post that is too long out of fear that it will use up all of their IQ allotment for the day.
Also, I was responding to different people or questions which each post and wanted to make sure that they were distinct from one another. I dont care about my post count at all and I've been here since a few months after the site started.
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maleorderbride, Thanks for the posts. You are right about the replays, and I mention that in the main post. I just haven't had time to put up some of my own replays yet, and haven't had a lot of replay recommendations from the other posters. Thanks for the reminder, though
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ah sorry then. I read this thread, but it was when it first started
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On October 23 2004 08:16 gg_hertzz wrote:
Since we're on this topic, i just recently downloaded a (p@6) kingdom vs (z@)12) scandal (think that was his name) where kingdom makes dramatic use of speed zeals against 3 hatch hydra/lurk build. Kingdom pressured the zerg really well, often sending small groups of 6-7 zealots into battle.
I wonder if it's better to sacrifice zeals and force zergs to make static defense and zerglings, humbling the zerg economy, or to just build and confront zerg later on.
After a Private discussion with gg_hertzz I am lead to believe that the replay he is talking about is at http://act.it.sohu.com/war3/report.php?id=242 for those that are interested. :-)
Update: The link does not work. See below.
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The link doesn't work 
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On October 25 2004 11:51 ShadowMaster wrote: The link doesn't work
I am sorry for not testing it. I cannot find where to click to download the replay.
It supposedly is "KingDom vs sCanDal[NaMe].1" at http://act.it.sohu.com/war3/search_do.php?gametype=2&keyword=kingdom . I cannot find how to download the correct replay so please post if you get it.
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On October 24 2004 21:07 maleorderbride wrote:
wow your a fag ahk-gosu
way to be constructive and pick on minor things when someone is actually attempting to get SOUND advice out to newbs like you.
<3 mora
fuck your mother
<3 the flames
o btw you stupid tard he was asking me what i was referring to.
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On October 24 2004 21:17 maleorderbride wrote: Show nested quote +On October 24 2004 17:11 ahk-gosu wrote:
the thing is if you got mainly a hydra force and you dont spend your gas on lurkers, get queens.
ensnare owns on zlots which makes their leg upgrades nearly worthless and the broodlings kills templars. also if you parasite templars they will have to waste them or keep them with their army so you can see where they advance.
queens are nice. so. im assuming that your doing all this of how much gas? Mostly hydra (75%+?). queens nest. then queens and the cost for reasearch. Then wait for them to get enough energy to actually ensnare and broodling. Thats all well and cute, but there is a reason why queens are seldom used. They have very nice spells, but thats a fair contriubtion of gas and there is no guarantee that you are even going to live long enough to get a return on it. Personally, I think ensnare can be VERY good when used with mass hydra. However, if you are doing this off 2 gas early game then you will some problems getting enough hydras that a few storms wont just kill your pitiful army. Please dont say your going to ensnare and broodling all the hydras. This strat could work if toss 1 gates into sair then expo. Get a third geyser, run in with a few lings in front and 8 or so hydras to pick off templar and keep his count low. Stall into an ok econ with 3 gas and +1 hydras with queeens and upgrades. It would take superb micro and picking off templar constantly to really pull off. Your words have some merit ahk. But your tone leaves something to be desired. You say things about strategy that are eiher simply unfeasible, or extremely difficult to set up the situation where it is an acceptable or desirable move. I think you need to stop pretending that your really good at this game and just preface your comments with "It would be cool if you played a shitty toss player and..."
read you stupid prick i said ensnare the zlots not the hydras..
and btw it can work because some zergs dont get lurkers and just mass hydras. and ensnare only cost 75 mana. you should be able to use it as much as the protoss can use storms.
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Updated the main thread with some of the points observed by Ahk-Gosu (under the Trends section).
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[QUOTE]On October 25 2004 13:01 ahk-gosu wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 24 2004 21:17 maleorderbride wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 24 2004 17:11 ahk-gosu wrote:
the thing is if you got mainly a hydra force and you dont spend your gas on lurkers, get queens.
ensnare owns on zlots which makes their leg upgrades nearly worthless and the broodlings kills templars. also if you parasite templars they will have to waste them or keep them with their army so you can see where they advance.
queens are nice.[/QUOTE]
so. im assuming that your doing all this of how much gas? Mostly hydra (75%+?). queens nest. then queens and the cost for reasearch. Then wait for them to get enough energy to actually ensnare and broodling.
Thats all well and cute, but there is a reason why queens are seldom used. They have very nice spells, but thats a fair contriubtion of gas and there is no guarantee that you are even going to live long enough to get a return on it. Personally, I think ensnare can be VERY good when used with mass hydra. However, if you are doing this off 2 gas early game then you will some problems getting enough hydras that a few storms wont just kill your pitiful army.
Please dont say your going to ensnare and broodling all the temps. This strat could work if toss 1 gates into sair then expo. Get a third geyser, run in with a few lings in front and 8 or so hydras to pick off templar and keep his count low. Stall into an ok econ with 3 gas and +1 hydras with queeens and upgrades. It would take superb micro and picking off templar constantly to really pull off.
Your words have some merit ahk. But your tone leaves something to be desired. You say things about strategy that are eiher simply unfeasible, or extremely difficult to set up the situation where it is an acceptable or desirable move. I think you need to stop pretending that your really good at this game and just preface your comments with "It would be cool if you played a shitty toss player and..."[/QUOTE]
Your response is.
[QUOTE][B] read you stupid prick i said ensnare the zlots not the hydras..[/QUOTE]
I am at a loss for how this has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that i said. I think instead, you should re-read my post and think about what I actually said.
[QUOTE][B] and btw it can work because some zergs dont get lurkers and just mass hydras. and ensnare only cost 75 mana. you should be able to use it as much as the protoss can use storms.[/QUOTE]
Provided that you get as many queens as they get hydras. Yes that would be true. However, you getting 6 queens in the first 10 minutes of the game+mass hydra+ups. Would be a horrible horrible idea, unless, like I said before you had an early advantage that allowed you to get a very stong econ going with preferably 3 gysers. Otherwise, its just fucking stupid. When you re-read my post and are prepared to actually defend or comment on the logic and the reasons why the strat might be applicable instead of simply ignoring/misreading everything I posted please respond. Until then, your a waste of bandwidth.[/B][/B]
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Sweden33719 Posts
You did type ensnare/brood hydras but it is fairly (yeah..) obvious what you meant :D
And ehm, fast queens are good actually.. But I'm not sure you'd have the gas to really do anything useful with them unless you went lings (then you can actually afford dual chambers) but then sairs are really annoying ;o
And ehm, you will be hard pressed to stop drops with this as you have no scourges.
Island expansions will suck for you as well.
+ This leaves VERY little room for failure as you can't just take an island if you feel weaker on the ground.
And what opening would you do this from?
A pure hydra start? How fast do you get your queens? If too fast it means you get raped by reaver goon.
If too slow it means he has a window + even if you do ensare him, that's not gonna affect his goon/templar army.. whatsoever.
And you just have less hydras etc so less of a problem -.-
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eheh ok so mutual failure. i did say temps every other time though. so it still seems obvious =/
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by the time he has 3 templars with storm you will definitely have enough time and gas without slowing your economy to get 3 queens. ensnare lasts quite a long time and can cover a huge army. during my zerg years when i used queens it did not slow me down quite as much as you guys think.
also if your hydra micro sux there is no point in doing this strategy at all.
also why the hell would get iget " as many queens as they get hydras"?
they are support units not freaken battle tanks. you dont need a lot of them to cover an army.
AND READ MY FREAKEN POST YOU IDIOT. IM TALKING ABOUT PROTOSS VERSUS ZERG. I AM TALKING ABOUT ZERGS ENSNARING ZEALOTS AND BROODING TEMPLARS NOT ENSNARING HYDRAS OMFG.
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sigh. i know its pvz. I made one typo a few posts ago and since then uve ignored that I mentioned HTs about 5 times and hydras once.
You said youd get as many ensnares as toss gets storms. You said that, not me. That obviously means that you must have as many queens as I have temps. Plus you wanted to broodling, So yell at yourself for saying dumb things, not me.
ANyway, I think you should read FAs post. He makes several good points. Provide a rep of BO and play by play of game you think this will work in. Ive already provided when I think it will work. Why not actually attempt to contribute something other than bad theorycraft to the community?
PS
stop wasting bandwidth
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I don't think reavers are powerful enough in a straight fight. Also, reaver/goon competes with hydras on favourable terrain, yes, but mix in unupgraded zerglings. The reavers and goons will waste their shots on the lings, which are only there as fodder. With a little luck, you'll have the reaver spending a scarab to kill 2 or 3 lings as they beat on the goons. Since goons only do 10 damage to lings, there's no problem with the lings getting in close, causing the reaver's scarabs to invariably target them. Of course, the toss can manually target hydras, but doing this will almost certainly drastically reducing the firing rate of his reaver(s). And once it gets to large numbers, it's all academic. The bottom line is that 2 reavers in a shuttle costs 600/200, plus you need at least 400/400 worth of additional upgrades. Plus, average 10 scarabs per reaver (you hope, a reaver that dies before getting off a couple cargoes worth of shots probably wasn't worth it anyways) which is another 300 minerals. You're missing out on a lot of zealots, temps, and goons to give yourself, essentially, the option to reaver drop undefended expansions. Zerg quickly removes that option with a spire anyways, so it's just not worth it imo. And anyways, you can drop stuff without reavers. DT's make an awesome cargo and don't require the additional tech and upgrades.
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I don't think reavers are good in a straight fight either. But saying you shouldn't get reavers is like saying you shouldnt get 3 zealots against 12 lings because the zealots would lose in a straight fight, but it's obvious you can put the zealots on a ramp and they'll be fine. If you are paying for reavers in a situation where they aren't going to be able to do much for you, then it's a waste.
Comparing the cost of units to the cost of other units is a waste of time. What about the situation in which you can get the units? Yes, I can make 10 zealots and some HT's for the cost of a shuttle and 2 reavers, but what's the point when I'm lurker contained? Why should I get zealots/temps when the zerg is spread out over the map, and I'll never be able to move a ground army across the map for the life of me?
If you are restricting yourself to "if the zerg has a spire I can't do drops anymore", then your problem isn't strategy.. you just need more control/speed. The expansion doesnt even have to be undefended to drop it, I'll drop 2 reavers in the range of a sunken and micro to kill it with minimal damage to myself.. I'll put reavers in a corner and fight 6-10 hydra. My point is, if you're at the level where you can't even use the reavers for what they're worth, then of course you shouldnt get them... but it doesn't make the strategy less valid for the person with the means to use it.
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ps your a fag
ill play a game with this build and post is as soon as possible just to shut you up 
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well NoNy, I've never really had a problem breaking a lurker contain without reavers, and I find that using groups of speedy zealots and dts takes out expansions quick enough, provided you have map control (if you don't have map control, you weren't going to get it with reavers anyways). I just can't see anything that reavers can do, that other units can't do better, for less money.
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Well then you must be myopic Haut. reavers are good, like virtually every unit in BW, in their own right. I cant believe there is a serious a discussion on whether reavers should not be used in PvZ . If you are at all experienced you should know that every unit has certain times when it should be used. At the very least you should accept that 2 reavers with speed are FAR more destructive early game vs zerg than 4 lots in a shuttle, and cheaper than 4 DTs.
I can see your problems VS spire tech, but simply try to use them either with sairs or before spire. You can influence the tech of a Z or simply scout. Im sure youve seen quite a few reps of reavers doing very well, so its not really a debate. Its just nony trying to convince you that your being short-sighted. Most notably watch PPPP vs infinty. Hard to do that with shuttles full of lots. Reavers are SO good because they are very very very economical when used correctly. You see kill counts of 45 in the pros, and normal users getting anywhere from 20-50 kills Vs zergs of their skill level. Also, reaver are VERY good , even vital on alot of islandish or large twisty maps. i.e. NON-lt. You really shouldnt completely dismiss something if your basing everything on LT play.
Nony is 100% correct. The game isnt all about unit cost. its about usage and unit choice. 10 zealots fucking suck when your lurk contained. Its far better to save the minerals for the right units or to double expo or something else when you do break out.
PS
there was a game just this week in the pro leagues where a protoss was being dominated early game and mass-expoed against. Zerg went spire and got destroyed with fast reavers and sairs. Zerg had map control and LOST it due to reavers. IMO, and honestly--in fact--reavers are normally not about fighting the zerg, they are about dropping the bases. There is more than one way to establish map superiority. One of those ways is to kill their army and take the center, but the other is to kill their income which prevents them from matching you in troop buildup, thereby giving YOU the map control.
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On October 26 2004 07:16 ahk-gosu wrote: ps your a fag ill play a game with this build and post is as soon as possible just to shut you up
i dont really want to see you play a game. unless its vs someone who is somewhat known. otherwise it will be you vs some east newb that you will rape with queens. When in reality anyone could rape him with anything. Do you have any reps of skilled gamers playing with this strat early game?
Im not quite as hostile as you seem to think. I normally overreact and say something insulting then explain my reasoning and back down a tad bit. I really just want you to give concrete, ie good reps, or actual BOs with your strat and protoss reaction in your "ideal" or "normal" circumstances. TO just make blanket statements in a strategy forum and not give specifics and/or BOs adds nothing. That has so far constituted my "problem" with you. I dont feel you add anything but background murmuring. Ive tried to get you to say specific things and support your arguemnts, but you just retreat into yelling things that make no sense.
I understand that this is a common reaction people have when they feel pressured. So, I wrote this to let you know, in a non-aggressive manner what I think you should do. It would be helpful to the newbies that read this forum and it would, I think, qualify as contributing to the site.
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ok man im sorry.
i love you. lol
ok ok lets be adults about this.
i appologize.
and to tell you the truth you explained how i was acting also lol.
i do overreact and calm down after.
im not as bad as some of you guys think i am.
also i think i have seen a zerg do this in 2 games. yes this was a pro gamer.
one was vs a terran. he brooded the tanks and ensnared the marines which got owned lovely.
another was when a zerg used cliffs to kill the protoss assimilators so he wouldnt have a lot of gas and brooded his templars and ensnared his zlots which make them so weak to zerglings and hydras.
ill try to look for it but i think i may have deleted them .
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On October 26 2004 07:16 ahk-gosu wrote: ps your a fag ill play a game with this build and post is as soon as possible just to shut you up
Play it against Reach, ok?
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Thanks for the excellents posts, especially NonY who observes a valuable principle: the cost of a unit has only a small bearing on the actual value of the unit.
On October 26 2004 06:45 NonY wrote:
I don't think reavers are good in a straight fight either. But saying you shouldn't get reavers is like saying you shouldnt get 3 zealots against 12 lings because the zealots would lose in a straight fight, but it's obvious you can put the zealots on a ramp and they'll be fine. If you are paying for reavers in a situation where they aren't going to be able to do much for you, then it's a waste.
Comparing the cost of units to the cost of other units is a waste of time. What about the situation in which you can get the units? Yes, I can make 10 zealots and some HT's for the cost of a shuttle and 2 reavers, but what's the point when I'm lurker contained? Why should I get zealots/temps when the zerg is spread out over the map, and I'll never be able to move a ground army across the map for the life of me?
If you are restricting yourself to "if the zerg has a spire I can't do drops anymore", then your problem isn't strategy.. you just need more control/speed. The expansion doesnt even have to be undefended to drop it, I'll drop 2 reavers in the range of a sunken and micro to kill it with minimal damage to myself.. I'll put reavers in a corner and fight 6-10 hydra. My point is, if you're at the level where you can't even use the reavers for what they're worth, then of course you shouldnt get them... but it doesn't make the strategy less valid for the person with the means to use it.
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since you all actually play bw how about you kick each others asses on SUPER MEGA BATTLE DOT NET instead of arguing like little girls on a forum
and you're both pretty ok
ok
be nice
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and where can i find this super mega b.net?
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yes, I was only talking about LT play, sorry for not clarifying that. Of course Reavers are awesome on island maps, and some other land maps like Requiem. I don't think the PPPP vs Infinity game was a very good indicator of the effectiveness of reavers though. It was an awesome game sure, but Infinity made a ton of mistakes and missed countless opportunities to win. For like 85% of the game he could probably have easily ended it by just dropping instead of attack moving into the valleys of death.
Early game, some reavers in a shuttle is a great thing to have, yes, but the knowledge that you 'forced' him to get a spire and own your reavers is hardly going to be much consolation when you lose. If you go reaver/sair vs a cool headed, experienced zerg on temple, he will own your ass 9 times out of 10. On other maps, reaver/sair can be great. On temple, or gaema, or nostalgia, or JRM, not so much.
Mathematically and probability speaking, reavers are just a generally inferiour choice on most land maps in pvz. That doesn't mean they never work. That doesn't even necessarily mean you should never ever get them. It means they'll work less often then other things, and it means that when you do get them, it's only to keep a zerg on their toes, not because it's a superiour strategy.
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Half the time strategy is doing what is unexpected.
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On October 27 2004 01:32 Hautamaki wrote:
yes, I was only talking about LT play, sorry for not clarifying that. Of course Reavers are awesome on island maps, and some other land maps like Requiem. I don't think the PPPP vs Infinity game was a very good indicator of the effectiveness of reavers though. It was an awesome game sure, but Infinity made a ton of mistakes and missed countless opportunities to win. For like 85% of the game he could probably have easily ended it by just dropping instead of attack moving into the valleys of death.
Early game, some reavers in a shuttle is a great thing to have, yes, but the knowledge that you 'forced' him to get a spire and own your reavers is hardly going to be much consolation when you lose. If you go reaver/sair vs a cool headed, experienced zerg on temple, he will own your ass 9 times out of 10. On other maps, reaver/sair can be great. On temple, or gaema, or nostalgia, or JRM, not so much.
Mathematically and probability speaking, reavers are just a generally inferiour choice on most land maps in pvz. That doesn't mean they never work. That doesn't even necessarily mean you should never ever get them. It means they'll work less often then other things, and it means that when you do get them, it's only to keep a zerg on their toes, not because it's a superiour strategy.
Nice post. The idea of the thread(s) has not been to say that Reaver openings are better than other options, or even viable all the time, but that they are a fully respectable alternative that is no worse than normal Storm based builds. Of course, there are certain situations where the Protoss should go Reaver and situations where he shouldn't -- but this situation is NOT move 1. I think that two important points have been discovered:
1. These strategies are pretty advanced; it takes a lot of effort from the Protoss to make it work. In this case, you might be right: this strategy requires more work than others and this fact might make it less feasible for some people.
2. Those who are capable of putting in the effort will receive full reward for the effort as it will force Zerg to play their game and raise their own work level to match. I believe this is a point in favor of the strategy because this is something Zerg has no control over: it is totally up to the player and depends on whether he has the skills and energy to use this strategy.
By the way, you have an excellent website.
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On October 26 2004 22:24 Casper... wrote:
since you all actually play bw how about you kick each others asses on SUPER MEGA BATTLE DOT NET instead of arguing like little girls on a forum
and you're both pretty ok
ok
be nice
Ｈmm,I'd say I'd love to but.......
would you mind telling me where the SUPER MEGA BATTLE DOT NET thing is ? ^^
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Bets, anyone?
What is becoming the main line now, as Lurker Containment is losing its edge? It's tough to look at many pro games as they are all so off-the-wall you can't talk about main-line with them. What do you see the most in the games on PGTour, WGTour, and Neo-GameI?
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as mentioned before. most GOOD zs go few lurk contain. That way you get obs but you end up only vs 2-3 lurks anway. I normally just try to strom and forego that tech entirely (if i have sair for cliff obs). im only 1400, so go better players for advice.
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Nice post ^_^. Im reading it now
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On October 28 2004 00:53 maleorderbride wrote:
as mentioned before. most GOOD zs go few lurk contain. That way you get obs but you end up only vs 2-3 lurks anway. I normally just try to strom and forego that tech entirely (if i have sair for cliff obs). im only 1400, so go better players for advice.
Yes, that is what I've noticed. What do they do during/after the containment? Mutalisk to Lurker containment is pretty popular these days, and Zerg also seems to be liking quick Hive tech. What else?
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zerg can play to counter.. they have that luxery
whatever you have the most of, they'll build to counter it. You're best shot is to just be ahead in upgrades. I'd say my 'main-line' is early double forge. Everything else is academic. If you have too many zealots, he'll stay lurker or switch ultra quickly. If you have too many goons he'll stay low tech and use the gas for mutas into guards. If you reaver he'll spire. Etc etc etc. The best thing to do imo is just be ahead in upgrades, never waste units early/mid game, anticipate his harassment to minimise probe deaths/lost mining time, and if all goes well you'll be comfortably ahead when you break out, with either the army to beat him down a little or the economy to win the late game.
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On October 25 2004 10:48 rednob wrote: Show nested quote +On October 23 2004 08:16 gg_hertzz wrote:
Since we're on this topic, i just recently downloaded a (p@6) kingdom vs (z@)12) scandal (think that was his name) where kingdom makes dramatic use of speed zeals against 3 hatch hydra/lurk build. Kingdom pressured the zerg really well, often sending small groups of 6-7 zealots into battle.
I wonder if it's better to sacrifice zeals and force zergs to make static defense and zerglings, humbling the zerg economy, or to just build and confront zerg later on. After a Private discussion with gg_hertzz I am lead to believe that the replay he is talking about is at http://act.it.sohu.com/war3/report.php?id=242 for those that are interested. :-) Update: The link does not work. See below.
I think I found the game Kingdom - Scandal that you are talking about at http://yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=28403. Please update your original post with the working link, just for good measure
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So, say Protoss breaks like in the Foru - Yellow game with Goons, Zealots, Archon and Templar. What exactly is it the Zerg is going to counter? It seems like a pretty solid unit composition. I'm really curious -- what is it the Protoss progamers are so afraid of lately, that they feel they need to open with the whacky stuff?
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It seems that the early game is the most important part of the game in PvZ.
New Zergs put pressure on quickly rather than powering (which gave toss time). Protoss has to tech quickly enough to reach reavers/sairs/temps (one of the three at least) without exposing their rear end.
Progamers either get some D or forgo heavy defense and tech quickly. Option One allows zerg to expand himself and have economic control of the game, which would thus create a do-or-die situation for toss (to pull something out of his ass). Option Two allows zerg to trample over toss.
Obviously progamers don't want to lose silly games, so they don't get too little defense and get run over by a pack of hydras. So, they're forced to go to Option One, (if they're teching that is).
Then, progamers are governed by the laws of PvZ:
1) Zerg should always have one more gas expo than toss.
2) Upgrades are beyond crucial (+1 atk zlots anyone?)
3) Zerg can adapt to ANY protoss strategy from their strategy. The reverse does not hold true.
So, what do tosses do now? Late game zerg wins unless toss has been keeping up with upgs and exps and macro. But, most of the action happens early game. Like oov said, koreans do strats that are meant to win, not adaptive strats. However, zerg is the most adaptive race (guess why). Toss isn't.
ShadowMaster - from all your posts I was hoping you were a PvZ guru . Guess you're stuck with the rest of us who can't figure this matchup out.
Reaver-Goon? I can't remember the last time I've seen a pro use that (but I rarely watch pros..) Reaver goon is good against hydras. Some lings too. But 2 gas-base mutas dominates that. Throw in some sairs? Any good Z will scourge them.
1gate-templar-expo? Against American zergs? You'll win. Against good zergs, you'll lose. That's only because Zerg has that easy expo + tech all ready for him, that extra expo of yours really doesn't mean anything. 2 toss base vs 3 zerg base = 1 toss base vs 2 zerg base. Try to keep the base count to a minimum. Especially if you have low APM.
2gate-zlots? Cool on small maps. Especially if you kill him. Maybe an expo with forge would be nice after making citadel (start archives after).
ChRh's protoss? Instant win. Cool if you know his style, sux if you don't. I dunno why this guy went terran.
What else is there? Zerg simply dominates protoss. Do any maps balance this match up out? :o
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BUMP! and you are so wrong -_-;;
Generalization doesn't work in SC. Any chobo knows that too
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Hm.. There are only two posts for the Nada v Reach games (the one on Raid and the one on Luna) .. I seem to recall a third game where Reach wins..? I'm just wondering if anyone has the VOD and can upload it so I can add it to my collection :p
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On April 16 2005 06:54 SuperJongMan wrote:
BUMP! and you are so wrong -_-;;
Generalization doesn't work in SC. Any chobo knows that too
What the fuck? People are talking builds and counters and you call it generalization? I guess since you're so good this whole thread is wasted becuase you say generalization doesn't "work".
Shut the fuck up and don't revive old threads, jesus christ..
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Lurker containment will not lose it's edge at all as long as the game is played on these standardized landmaps. It would take a balance patch to change the most popular strategies and counters.
Lurker containment is the most logical and easiest way for a zerg to ensure a win. One can always use other strategies to great effect, but it will still remain the "best" choice.
Only when protoss players skill level is so high that they can get in one or two shots on each of those pesky lurkers and hit them each with a psistorm to kill them we'll see other more popular routes. But I don't see that happening, since getting psistorm that early means that the protoss won't have enough units to venture far enough from his base to get those critical hits in, without being swarmed and trapped by lings.
Fuck, old thread. Oh well, at least we know what has been said holds true yet.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Exalted 1) I think he was talking about worst.players post - which I have only skimmed but disagree with so far. 2) Bumping this thread is good :O
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what a wonderful guide lines for PvZ. save and read. haha
thx
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On April 16 2005 14:31 exalted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2005 06:54 SuperJongMan wrote:
BUMP! and you are so wrong -_-;;
Generalization doesn't work in SC. Any chobo knows that too What the fuck? People are talking builds and counters and you call it generalization? I guess since you're so good this whole thread is wasted becuase you say generalization doesn't "work". Shut the fuck up and don't revive old threads, jesus christ..
Did you read the post above? ... and reviving old threads is better than making multiple copies of the same. This thread is good anyways.
Q - How do you stop drone break if you gone 1 gate? I lost twice today to it and they hit around the time I have 3 or so Zealots which sucks...
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On October 22 2004 11:03 choader wrote:Pretty neat thread. Aesthetically very pleasing. Lurker containment has been in use for a long time too; Nazul beat Grrr... (4-0?) by lurker containing every game, and that was in 2001. http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=3371But I have noticed, like you have, that lurkers are almost always seen in any zvp lately. I guess the reason is that, on LT at least, it very rarely loses, while the increasing skill of toss players was destroying mass hydra. Players like IntoTheRain with his perfect storms probably contributed. The Kwakka vs Jju game is a decent example, i guess. This is what I think. That is all.
Holiemolie, that kwakka vs jju was one hell of a pimp play, especially the last part....
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Norway28672 Posts
reavers are good vs lurker containment. doesn't cost you very much either considering you really want to have speedshuttles anyway.
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make a massive zealot/archon army with speed/ranged obs and get 1 shutle with 2 reaver (use them as tanks) do not let him TOUCH your zeals untrill you brake out. If there are a lot hydra keep 2-3 ht unmorphed. Protect shuttle with archons.you will soon max out and the breakout is more effective than you will think. Once you are out take ur 2nd natural and make the correct decisions to kill what expo first. Do not fuck up your army.
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On April 18 2005 02:58 SuperJongMan wrote:
Q - How do you stop drone break if you gone 1 gate? I lost twice today to it and they hit around the time I have 3 or so Zealots which sucks...
you should scout this, but it's not always that simple i know, just remember that 1-gate is better backed up by a forge with cannon on ramp if he went lings (ie, not mass drones), especially if he stops gas after 100, cos u know speed is coming.
If u don't scout it well in time, get some probes above your ramp and start a sheild battery, also make sure that you don't have only 1 pylon powering your gateway.
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In my experience plaing PvZ (read: not enough to carry a lot of weight) goon/speedzeal/temp does just fine against everything as long as you get your storms down. The entire strategy relies on your putting down storms the moment you're engaged . Any lings that get through will get raped by your speedzeals, and the goons will get free hits on units that are trying to storm dodge. Even late game when I'm up against ultra/ling I don't always have problems. Sometimes I lose to it, other times I don't I guess it depends on how I micro. I should probably note that having even three archons will make your army exponentially more powerful. You should have enough speedzeals to keep lings and ultras off of your goons, and you should have plenty of temps.
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On April 16 2005 14:31 exalted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2005 06:54 SuperJongMan wrote:
BUMP! and you are so wrong -_-;;
Generalization doesn't work in SC. Any chobo knows that too What the fuck? People are talking builds and counters and you call it generalization? I guess since you're so good this whole thread is wasted becuase you say generalization doesn't "work". Shut the fuck up and don't revive old threads, jesus christ..
imo, if there is one matchup where builds and counters are pretty useless, then it is pvz.
pvz strat guides always make a generalization, which imo is the shittiest way to play pvz.
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about PvZ, my advice is to not listen to the bad players who claim that zerg owns protoss. people make false claims that protoss cant adapt to what the zerg does. considering zerg players do the same thing 75% of the time, just asume he is going for 2 base lurker contain as usual and try to scout him to see if he is doing something else. in other words you are assuming until proven otherwise.if your scouting fails then set yourself up correctly for reflexiveness. remember that even though you are asuming you still need to scout and be reflexive if necessary.
after you get 2 temps with storm and an archon get observers directly after. if he went lurkers you will have detection. in any case, you now have observers to scout. if you know he is going 2 base lurker contain, which you should assume from the beginning, then you may have to get some dragoons after the observers. if your scouting proves otherwise, adapt.
if he is going one base tech, throw down 3 cannons. one on each side of your minerals and one to protect the front from lurkers. remember that one cannon wont do crap by itself, they are to support your other units. if he has mutalisks attacking you will need an archon quickly to help your cannons.
if he is massing hydras it becomes very obvious very quickly because of his numbers. if you dont have zealot speed and he attacks you with 18+ hydras quit the game immediatly, you just lost. i hope you are better then that. you may want to have 4 temps instead of 2 against pure hydra. dont make any more archons, they are a joke against hydras.
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Hautamaki advised on page 3, to use more goons.
I was a little skeptical about that, but this brilliant replay with H_Paul_WII & Tasika show this strategy. The big blob of goons with templar-support, did good against ultraling.
The game ends, with the use of some clever magic.
http://www.gosugamers.net/admin/replays.php?dl=2303
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EPT
