Rio: once I see enough goons to determine you are going goon or goon/reaver, I will cut probes to get either four or five gateways and produce enough goons to defend the attack. Why don't you actually try it out first?
ajmbek: Same thing as Rio. You can defend goon/reaver with this build.
Muirhead: It's much easier to scout that on maps like Fighting Spirit. If you spawn at 7, then you obviously need to check 6 and 9. I do not like Kal's DT follow-up, simply because it's too vulnerable to any type of early robo attacks. Like you mentioned, you can keep pressuring with zealots and goons off two gates to get a clue of what he's doing. I have not faced a shield battery + proxy robo yet though.
I will post a replay of defending two gate reaver once I find/play one.
Added a game vs a friend during our practice series where he goes two gate robo.
EDIT: ajmbek, good job trying it out. Glad it went pretty well. But yeah, an untangible aspect of this build is that most people haven't encountered it and thus will have a pretty bad reaction to it - either doing some all-in mid game or getting excessive early game zealots. Five zealots really do a lot of stuff for you.
Sky.Technique: I am not too sure what the best counter would be. I am not really ready to think about the other side yet haha.
endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
Here's a game of Horang2 playing fast nexus in an ace match of proleague. I feel this can be a very strong build too, me and my friend have played it a lot.
However, I wonder if you played against good players that would harass with their first zealot like in this game? It seem that they could keep your 5 zealots in your main while they bring their dragoons to your base and then can micro them against the zealot. If horang2 didn't tech after 2 zealots in this game, I feel he wouldn't have been unable to defend with only zealots at his base. I know he still lost afterward but I feel it was just because of kal extremely good micro.
So, what is your take on this? Would you still make 5 zealots in this situation and if yes how would you react?
If I were to just do something like 2 gate ranged goon into expo, you say you would cut probes for goons and place a few cannons. How much would this erode your economy advantage?
With sc2 coming out, it makes me even happier when people write guides for broodwar. I still have friends that come up to me asking how they can start playing starcraft because i talk about it so much, and a community that never goes away helps in luring them in
On July 22 2010 02:02 OneOther wrote: endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
Hi Frozen,
I tried it 2 times yesterday on Fighting Spirit.
I lost the first one because of bad macro to his 3 gates goon reaver push, after I defended successfully his first attack. I guess I wasn't used to have that much money that early in PvP :D
I lost the second one vs a guy who went 2 gates zeal + battery. He played it smartly as when my first zeal was ready I used it to block the ramp. His scouting probe had already made a pylon in front of my nat. He used his 2 zeals to reverse block my ramp while building a battery so I couldn't build mine. I decided to cut probes asap and add a 3rd gate, but he added a proxy at my nat with his battery. What he did very well, is that his zealots that blocked my own ramp where in range of his battery. He soon added a second battery. So even if he had less zeals, I couldn't surround his, and couldn't go out either as the 2 batteries where constantly recharging shield.
How could I adapt ? Just keep blocking my cliff and quick tech, since he sacrified his eco and tech to proxy + battery ? Or instead of adding a 3rd gate I could have made cannon on the high ground to shoot his zeals + battery on my nat ?
I haven't watched your replays yet as I really wanted to try the build, but I will tonight ! It's probably the best way to learn. And the fact I defended the first attack of the first game vs core-zeal double gate goon is enough to convince me the build is definitely viable. I just need to learn how the extra money coming from the FE.
On July 22 2010 02:02 OneOther wrote: endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
How could I adapt ? Just keep blocking my cliff and quick tech, since he sacrified his eco and tech to proxy + battery ? Or instead of adding a 3rd gate I could have made cannon on the high ground to shoot his zeals + battery on my nat ? Thanks !
You can probe drill the opponent off your ramp, if you at any point let him wall you in.
On July 22 2010 02:02 OneOther wrote: endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
How could I adapt ? Just keep blocking my cliff and quick tech, since he sacrified his eco and tech to proxy + battery ? Or instead of adding a 3rd gate I could have made cannon on the high ground to shoot his zeals + battery on my nat ? Thanks !
You can probe drill the opponent off your ramp, if you at any point let him wall you in.
I thought about it, but when you drill, your probes surround his zeals, so because it's on a ramp, your own probes prevent your zeals to hit his zeals. Plus he had battery so it would have taken forever to probe drill efficiently. Probe drill could work if I use it to move his zeals and he doesn't re-position them asap. Or maybe I didn't understand well how you wanted to probe drill.
On July 22 2010 02:02 OneOther wrote: endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
How could I adapt ? Just keep blocking my cliff and quick tech, since he sacrified his eco and tech to proxy + battery ? Or instead of adding a 3rd gate I could have made cannon on the high ground to shoot his zeals + battery on my nat ? Thanks !
You can probe drill the opponent off your ramp, if you at any point let him wall you in.
I thought about it, but when you drill, your probes surround his zeals, so because it's on a ramp, your own probes prevent your zeals to hit his zeals. Plus he had battery so it would have taken forever to probe drill efficiently. Probe drill could work if I use it to move his zeals and he doesn't re-position them asap. Or maybe I didn't understand well how you wanted to probe drill.
stack probes, click on a mineral patch at your natural, and when they're behind his zealots (lower on the ramp) move your zealots and probes to attack simultaneously? = surround attack, and your dps should be better than his recharging + attack rate
I tried this build out a couple of times, and it worked very well I used to try going 12 nexus with 2 zealots off of one gate instead of 5 off of two, but this build is very much more versatile and is surprisingly good at buying time / damaging goons. Thanks for your work man!
Interesting build. I've tried a variation of this before, but the important thing is that people wreck me by sending their first zealot directly to my base and it usually wreaks havoc before i can get my first zealot out. It's a huge nuisance. any suggestions?
I have not tested this build, but should it not get into trouble vs people with good goon micro who send their first zealot to harass you while getting 2/3gate rangegoons? Unless you are just sending your zealots mindlessly toward him and dont try to stop the zeal harass he should be able to get his first goon to your base before you can send them toward him?
coming from a d ranked player, I have tested this build a couple times and it is so useful. resources are so much higher that once you hold off the initial attacks (saying the other protoss went 1 base), you have such an advantage that you can just steam roll him. I have lost once to like 3-4 manner pylons in my mineral line which then proceeded to some zealots before I had enough money to produce any gateways
@Zepish/Oystein: the five zealot and goon timing are much earlier for this build than you think though. You will always have your first zealot out by the time he arrives, so you can choose to block your ramp until you get more zealots. By the time you get five, you need to send four zealots to his base, leaving one behind to chase the one that's left. A lot of it comes down to micro at that point, but you will be at least buy time/scout what he's doing/maybe get probe kills with your zealots.
@manymunkies: I am glad to hear it went pretty well. But yeah holding off some form of attack is the hardest part but once you do, you will be at a huge lead.
@falconbeach: you are doing the build wrong if his first zealot arrives that early and wreaks havoc. I suggest you watch some of my replays.
@endy: watch my replays! I encounter almost the exact same things you lost to, and you can get a basic grasp of how to deal with them. Good for you for trying it out though and better luck next time.
This build doesnt work when the rush distance are close? For example on python? cuz i just played a game where i was 3 my opp was at 6 and his zeal got up my ramp right as my first zeal spawned. and i build stuff like RIGHT as i got enough minerals to get the stuff. (example once i got 150 minerals i got gate, not at 175 minerals, like exactly as soon as possible)
. if he 2gate zeal with continual zeal production should i go to 3 gates, not get gas until he does (or whenever i can get gas + defending), and throw down a shield bat?
EPT
I used to try going 12 nexus with 2 zealots off of one gate instead of 5 off of two, but this build is very much more versatile and is surprisingly good at buying time / damaging goons. Thanks for your work man!
