After playing a decent amount of Brood War over the summer, I decided to try writing my first-ever strategic guide for Protoss warriors out there. I wanted to find a way to contribute a little - which I haven't done in too long - and eventually realized it would be best to utilize my skill and knowledge of the game to assist other members improve. I will do my best to cover as many scenarios and possibilities as possible. To say a bit about myself: I have been a competitive player for a long time, having reached B/B+ on iCCup (DerivAtives and Ytech.Frozen) and playing for the USA B National Team since around 3/4 years ago. I think I have a solid understanding of the game, and well-suited to answer whatever question you may have. I also know that this particular build/strategy can work anywhere from the novice to advanced level, as I have had notable success with it even in the higher ranks.
Short Introduction: In this guide, I am going to explain one of my favorite recent builds in the Protoss vs Protoss match-up: fast double Nexus. A majority of people believe that the match-up has turned stale and boring, with luck of the draw often determining the result of the game. I wholeheartedly disagree. PvP is in fact an incredibly dynamic match-up that requires surgical precision in mechanics and a wide array of necessary understanding to become a solid player. This fast expand build can help you achieve that.
I feel that this build is very underrated and underused, with a potential yet to be discovered. Hopefully I can help you add a versatile tool in your arsenal for this mirror match-up. As a bonus, it's also an extremely entertaining style to play.
Suitable Maps: Any three or four player map - the larger the better. Personally, I love doing this build on maps like Fighting Spirit or Tau Cross. It can work really well on two-player maps, but it's just more vulnerable to hardcore cheeses like in-base two gate proxy. You can do it pretty much on any map though, especially if you know your opponent's playstyle.
Basic Premise of the Strategy: Now, many of you know that fast expanding as Protoss has become a common trend in both PvT and PvZ; 12 Nexus in PvT has become almost standard on four-player maps, and double Nexus PvZ has been the staple build for many years e.g. the "Bisu Build." In PvP, however, you rarely see a player fast expand. I am not sure why, because it's one of the strongest builds I have ever worked with. Without further due, here's the basic early-game build order:
8 Pylon 12 Nexus 12 Gate 14 Gate 15 Pylon by the second Nexus *Build five zealots non-stop, fitting in probe anytime you can. Zealots take priority. Assimilator Cybernetics Core Forge (Build gas-core-forge in a flexible order to adjust to your opponent's build. I prefer gas-core-forge though)
*Note about the five zealots: Always make these zealots. Why? Because it allows you to do these critical things in the early game: 1) Forcing him to cut probes to match your gateway/zealot count 2) Getting in his base to scout what he's doing if he one gate teched 3) Fending off any aggressive or proxy zealot builds 4) Afflicting economical damage.
No matter what happens, get those five zealots. You may have to cut a probe here and there, but trust me, it's worth it. The most vulnerable aspect of the fast expand is the lack of information/intel on your opponent. These zealots will help you solve that problem. They will tell your how many units he has, and you can tell if he two-gated or one gate teched early on. About half the time, I can actually break his ramp with these zealots because he will usually have two zealots and a goon, assuming he went for the very popular Zealot-Core-Zealot build. I will later discuss how to react to whatever counter your opponent have opted for.
You can probably tell the early game build is not complicated at all. But the most difficult part about this build is adjustment, and that's why I urge you to learn this build. It can help you become a better player in multiple ways. To be good with this build, you must be able to read what your opponent is doing and adapt quickly, and correctly. The failure to do so can result in a short, disappointing loss.
How to React to Specific Early/Mid-game Counters In perhaps the most important section, I will explain how to react to the most common counters to this fast expand build. There are, of course, variations in everything because it all just depends on the situation. That's what makes StarCraft great. But follow these general guidelines and you will find some success:
A) Variations of Early Game Zealot Attack I find this to be the most common counter in the lower ranks (D to C-) Not many people fast expand in PvP, thus when your opponent sees you expanding, he will more or less panic and try to do some damage early game. There are many different variations to this. There is the two gateway non-stop zealot attack with a shield battery in your natural, a three gateway pressure, or even a four gateway attack with two of them proxied somewhere near. You can beat every one of them with solid micro and a calm head. The latter might actually be the most important element in defeating these types of early game attacks. Stay calm. Do not freak out. That will only lead to silly micro mistakes, which are crucial at this stage of the game. Believe it or not, it's not even hard to defend these.
If he builds a shield battery in your natural (with two gates in his base), just mirror his action and build a shield battery next to your expansion. This is why you need to build your second pylon at 15 by your second Nexus. But if he's far away in a diagonal position, you don't even need to build the battery. Instead, get another zealot or probe. The key to defeating this attack is having three probes fighting with your zealots. Do not ever attack until you feel confident doing so. Based on prior experience, there is about a fifteen second timing window where you and your opponent both have seven zealots, assuming nobody lost any before that. This is when you fight together with those three probes. If you get a good surround, his shield battery won't matter at all. Ideally yours is nearby so you can use the battery during battle. Every type of early game variation - three and four gateways - follows the same procedure, except you just have to match his gateway count. Scout him well. See if he's cutting probes, and if he is, you must do the same. You have an extra Nexus, you just need to survive. Be patient and wait for the right moment to strike.
B) DT Drop While you were reading this, you were probably thinking "wouldn't I die to a quick DT drop?" And that is exactly what many of your opponents will be thinking. This is simply the most common counter your opponent will opt for if he did not do an early-game pressure. After all, it makes sense - your tech is relatively late and your main base remains vulnerable since photon cannons will most likely be placed at your natural. But there are some pretty simple things you can do to fend this off:
1) The Five Zealots: yes, this is why they are so important. If your opponent techs to robotics facility and templar archives after one gate, your initial five Zealots will almost always get into his main base. This will allow you to either scout the tech or even kill some probes. DT drop is a dead build once scouted. Build cannons at natural and main base, and you should be set.
2) Build a pylon on the path his Shuttle would fly over, and always leave a probe somewhere between his base and yours. This is absolutely critical, because unless you know for sure that he's attacking your front, you need to leave three to four Dragoons at your main base. These Dragoons, on top of one cannon at main base, will nullify any sort of cheesy DT drop. Without them, your cannon will get sliced by DTs in a couple seconds. Do not forget this.
3) Scouting matters. Occasionally send a probe to his base to see how many Zealots/Dragoons he has. While there's no magical number, if you believe that he has fewer units than he should, then build that cannon in your main base and leave some more Dragoons. I choose to build the cannon almost 80 percent of the time.
C) Variation of Dragoon or Dragoon/Reaver Attack So your opponent decided to either break your front with three gates or go for a two gate/robo attack. This isn't too difficult to scout, mainly because you can tell what he's doing by his Dragoon count and whether or not he has range.(Pro Tip: learning how to tell if Dragoons have range or not will be a tremendous asset in PvP) You send a Probe, and see that he has five Dragoons? Well, he's not doing anything cheesy. So prepare for a strong mid-game attack. To do so, you need to cut a decent number of Probes to get three more gateways as soon as possible. Build three cannons, four if you feel he's skipping a massive number of Probes for an earlier four gate break. Do not take your second gas at natural until the first battle's over. There's no trick around this one. Once five gateways are up, build Dragoons non-stop from them. Fit in Probes wherever you can, but don't forget - Dragoons always take priority at this point. Remember, you can build Probes at twice his rate once you fend off his attack.
D) Some Uncommon Stuff I have ran into a handful of unorthodox counters, such as fast double-robotics, Dragoon/DT attack (Dragoons snipe cannons, DTs come in), proxy robo somewhere near my natural to crawl a fast Reaver with Dragoons, and etc. I am not going to explain any specifics about those because they are so dependent on the situation. Two things are certain: scouting and adjusting properly will always defeat them. If you have detailed questions on how to fend off any them, I'd be happy to talk more about them.
E) Fast Expand vs Fast Expand FE vs FE should be played like a standard game on maps like Blue Storm where you usually go up to three/four gates into robotics/citadel at the same time. Get a cannon only if you feel that he's doing some sort of fast DT rush. Otherwise, just position your goons well along the choke and you should be fine. To be able to maximize your advantage, it's important that you scout well to figure out how many units he's exactly getting so you can pump out as many probes as possible while getting the necessary units and tech. Again, it becomes an adjustment game. If you are opponent is doing some early push (and you need to scout this), you will obviously need to add more cannons. If not, push the advantage. I know this is easier said than done, but it will take some practice and experience. Players skip reavers most of the time and opt straight for templar tech, using the robo only for observers. This is usually a solid play. Then it becomes the regular map control/templar drops/expanding battle in the center. Please do not hesitate to upload a replay if you would like more specific advice.
Transition Into Late-game Once you successfully defend any of those early-mid/mid game attacks, you should have a significant advantage unless you lost a large sum of Probes. As the game progresses, play it like how you would play any other PvP. I like to put down my robotics (for obs and shuttle) and citadel of adun almost at the same time once I have my natural gas fully running - after approximately four or five gates pumping out goons/zeals. Upgrade speed for Zealots, get attack upgrade, and transition to Templars. Reavers are not necessary in most cases. (I don't think I have ever gotten them for this build) Some things to keep in mind:
a) Watch out for speed Shuttles Probably the most common way to make a comeback in PvP is to use the Shuttle. It can consist of Reavers, DTs, High Templars, or any combination of the above. Since you are at a lead, you must keep your head up for these harass tactics. Build pylons at key locations to spot Shuttles. Have observers over your natural cliff, and on the path towards your main base mineral line. On Fighting Spirit, have two groups of six Dragoons at the two regular Shuttle flight paths. It's essential that you shut down any opportunity for him to come back in the game. Being aware of the mini-map and having a good map presence takes some experience and skill, but you can only improve by practicing that.
b) Go harass! A successful harass is the final dagger. Do not ever lose patience and do an unnecessary attack just because you think you have the lead. Instead, especially on a map like FS, take a second base and go for a High Templar drop. Don't forget to get that shuttle. If you kill ten Probes, which isn't too difficult to do with storm drops, the game is pretty much over. I know that this takes multitasking and that can be hard for a lot of players. Force yourself to do it. Don't do the "ah, screw it" lazy stuff. Storm drops are so good!
c) Maintain map control. Map control is crucial in PvP. It means more room to harass, and vice versa - it's much harder for your opponent to harass when you have Dragoons all over the map. Around mid-game, your fast expand macro should kick in and you will gain map control. Scout for hidden expos and always get in a good formation when engaging him. (This means you need to have Probes/Obs to keep track of where his army is) This build is so great because once you gain a macro lead in PvP, it's hard to lose that unless you lose a massive number of Probes. Your subsequent expansions will be faster, your gateway count will be higher, and even your upgrades will be better.
Conclusion I challenge you to try this build the next time you log on iCCup. It's such an underused build that is actually so powerful. If you lose, watch the replay and study how you could have done better. How you could have defend that attack. Lastly, please feel free PM me for help or message me on iCCup under sMi.Frozen. Don't be afraid to bring up questions or criticisms in the thread. Cheers!
im sorry but with goons sooo late wouldnt this build DIE automatically to 2 gate range reaver? or even gate range robo?
that early robo would wreck zeals and if micro'ed properly zeals cant even touch goons. if i saw that 12 nexus i would IMMEDIATELY place my second gateway and pump goons.
by the time you reached say... 25 supply i'd have 5-7 goons banging down your front door with a reaver/shuttle coming :/
On July 21 2010 16:13 serenidite wrote: im sorry but with goons sooo late wouldnt this build DIE automatically to 2 gate range reaver? or even gate range robo?
that early robo would wreck zeals and if micro'ed properly zeals cant even touch goons. if i saw that 12 nexus i would IMMEDIATELY place my second gateway and pump goons.
by the time you reached say... 25 supply i'd have 5-7 goons banging down your front door with a reaver/shuttle coming :/
Heh no, not at all. It's sort of difficult to explain the exact timing (dependent on situation) but you can get enough goons on time, while those five zealots either buy time or damage/kill his goons. Your goons aren't very late at all.
You can get a cannon or two if you feel unsafe versus really early goon pressure. Once you know he's not going DT or some other cheesy stuff, you can cut probes and get enough gateways to pump sufficient number of goons. Don't underestimate the early pressure you can put on him with zealots and how fast you can follow-up with goons
yes...even though i actually have seen games of you playing before, and obviously a FAR better player against me, would you mind posting a replay of yourself defending against some sort of 4gate goon all in?...seems kind of hard...zealots cant even hit dragoons that are microed properly and you most definitely wont have speed yet xD
what if he skipped zeal completely and went straight to goon production off the bat? wouldn't you be in really big trouble then T_T
at the very least the amount of goons he has would enable him to get his 2nd and 3rd expansion while you cant really move out?
Ah, I guess I should talk about early goons a little bit more. When I was first practicing this build, I was actually really surprised at how easy it was to defend against early goons. First, as I talked about it in my guide, your five zealots will be a tremendous help. The fact that you are talking about zealots being unable to hit goons tells me you have a wrong timeframe in terms of how things should be working out. If he went for a one gate cyber build (doesn't really matter how fast his second gate is), your zealots will always push him back to his base. This is why you need to attack as soon as possible with those five zealots, to engage him at either his base or somewhere near. That will allow your zealots to damage/kill his goons, scout his base, or even take out some probes. While this is happening, you should be macroing at home - building dragoons, getting as many cannons as you need, and eventually researching range. By the time his goons arrive after cleaning up your zealots, you will always have sufficient defense to repel him.
If he decides to skip zealots straight to goons, immediately rally both gateways to his base. When you are chasing a goon with three zealots, put two zealots on the goon and have the other hunting probes. You should be in a very good position if he skips zealots.
EDIT: Oh, I forgot to talk about him double-expanding or something of that sort. My replay vs ShoX is a good reference. Anyhow, you will be at a huge advantage if you defend successfully and he tries to follow your expos. This is assuming that you didn't lose many probes. Once you saturate probes at both bases, your army will overwhelm his unless he cut a ton of probes to match your gateway/army count - in which case you can actually just match his second expo since you have a higher probe count anyway and thus superior economy. Also, you have more room to harass with shuttle as your early expansion will allow you to have a superior mid-game army. You have to realize this FE forgoes early game control; your opponent will dictate the early game with either a faster tech or a bigger army. You just need to defend. Your economy will kick in and you will roll him over mid-game.
Whoa, this is really cool. I pretty much went 14nex in all of my SC2 beta games, and chronoboosting those zealots out of 2gates after nex can *really* put some hurt on your opponent, even if he went into "panic mode". While this certainly isn't SC2, I can see what you mean when you say those first 5 zealots are important.
Though I expose counter-expanding and elevating into a TvP style base-grabbing war would seemingly be a good way to play this?
Thanks a lot for this guidee. :D Although I'm a zerg player, I often play offrace for fun. This will help in my future Bisu-esque conquests against my friendds who play tosss. Now I can pwn them with toss anddd zerg. :D
Personally, I think the FE PvP is a pretty big risk and more or less relies on not be scouted in order to survive. Are you sure that this build doesn't die to a 2 gate range robo? You might have a good number of zealots and dragoons, but I would think a Reaver/Shuttle in the hands of a formidable microer pick apart your army, provided he doesn't have that much of a smaller army.
Beyond that, the build I'd say is pretty damn good. What's your thoughts on the DT Forge FE and Forge FE? I've been seeing those builds used a bit more frequently and.. they don't work too well
On July 21 2010 16:47 hofodomo wrote: Whoa, this is really cool. I pretty much went 14nex in all of my SC2 beta games, and chronoboosting those zealots out of 2gates after nex can *really* put some hurt on your opponent, even if he went into "panic mode". While this certainly isn't SC2, I can see what you mean when you say those first 5 zealots are important.
Though I expose counter-expanding and elevating into a TvP style base-grabbing war would seemingly be a good way to play this?
counter-expanding, as in grabbing your natural and your third? You realize that it is a terrible idea and you would be promptly rolled over by the other player. There is a reason why the player who expands first tends to grab his third fourth and further expos faster than the other player.
I also had a similar idea but I never had time to perfect this build. Props man.
I'd go 12 nex, gateway gas core and hope he doesn't go pump zealots. It kinda works like 12 nex in PvT where he'll go sacrifice econ to take me down but I'll manage to wing it somehow and proceed to get back in tech and get way ahead in economy. The build dies to 2 gate goons.
On July 21 2010 21:11 Rio wrote: How about 6 7 goon with 2 reaver shuttle push ahead in early Can u hanlde it ? Any rep ?
Of course..
Let's say you see your opponent this build (FE), so you're thinking prolly about 1 gate goon pump while teching to reavers (I don't see why you'll 2 gate when you want 2 reavers early on). In order to kill this build, you'll probably need to cut on a lot of things like zealots and probes to hit the timing window. By the time he has 5 zealots, you'd probably have 2~3(?) goons without range (you want that gas so bad for those reavers). Now, those 5 zeals can rape your probes or trap your goons.
From the looks of it, this build allows you to be greedy and aggressive at the same time, I love it.
just incidentally, if you were to encounter a 12 nex what would you do? i have been thinking of possible counters but i just cant think of any solid thing..
Great guide, I always thought FE in PvP was not very viable because of the counters you mentioned. But you gave very useful defensive tips, and highlighted every crucial point.
But do you have any idea why 12 nex PvP is not a common build in korean leagues ?
Thoughts on consistently scouting and properly defending this?
I imagine the 5 zealots and mass gateway followup would help compared to kal's attempt at dts. What do you think of kal's dt followup? Presumably one could go for a slightly differently timed proxy robo upon seeing you continuously building zealots early on? Have you faced shield batteries accompanying the proxy robotics before?
On July 21 2010 21:11 Rio wrote: How about 6 7 goon with 2 reaver shuttle push ahead in early Can u hanlde it ? Any rep ?
Of course..
Let's say you see your opponent this build (FE), so you're thinking prolly about 1 gate goon pump while teching to reavers (I don't see why you'll 2 gate when you want 2 reavers early on). In order to kill this build, you'll probably need to cut on a lot of things like zealots and probes to hit the timing window. By the time he has 5 zealots, you'd probably have 2~3(?) goons without range (you want that gas so bad for those reavers). Now, those 5 zeals can rape your probes or trap your goons.
From the looks of it, this build allows you to be greedy and aggressive at the same time, I love it.
Lol U making 5 zeal and I making 2 zeal 2 goon with range I make before your goon out cause my tech faster than u So i just wait to 2 reaver and push at your nat Wat u got to defend ? And i'm making reaver faster cause i know u FE so i can delay or not making obs And why not i can't 2 gate reaver ?
Mah!!! I feel some sort of pushes with rivers can take it. Last summe preparing wcg i spent a bit of time in trying 1gate 2 zelot nexus and similar variations. When time i will try this with partner for this wcg (: but i am really sceptic about the possibilitis. (meybe because i know a version of 2fakt that kills 12nexus) now i look reps, then edit. Mine idea is a leter push with 1-2 reavers and like 12-15 goons (one base)
p.s. nice write up in any case (:
so: reps looked and played a game with a mete using this. boh, seems good, when you see it the first time you will 90% react bad. it could became a micro intensive BO and i like it, but i really do not like to deviate from standard. In fakt some of the reps resolves at some micro situations. its funny to see how this 5 slow lots can do so much damage, i used 4 in mine game and they where also great. I think i had to play vs it.
Rio: once I see enough goons to determine you are going goon or goon/reaver, I will cut probes to get either four or five gateways and produce enough goons to defend the attack. Why don't you actually try it out first?
ajmbek: Same thing as Rio. You can defend goon/reaver with this build.
Muirhead: It's much easier to scout that on maps like Fighting Spirit. If you spawn at 7, then you obviously need to check 6 and 9. I do not like Kal's DT follow-up, simply because it's too vulnerable to any type of early robo attacks. Like you mentioned, you can keep pressuring with zealots and goons off two gates to get a clue of what he's doing. I have not faced a shield battery + proxy robo yet though.
I will post a replay of defending two gate reaver once I find/play one.
Added a game vs a friend during our practice series where he goes two gate robo.
EDIT: ajmbek, good job trying it out. Glad it went pretty well. But yeah, an untangible aspect of this build is that most people haven't encountered it and thus will have a pretty bad reaction to it - either doing some all-in mid game or getting excessive early game zealots. Five zealots really do a lot of stuff for you.
Sky.Technique: I am not too sure what the best counter would be. I am not really ready to think about the other side yet haha.
endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
Here's a game of Horang2 playing fast nexus in an ace match of proleague. I feel this can be a very strong build too, me and my friend have played it a lot.
However, I wonder if you played against good players that would harass with their first zealot like in this game? It seem that they could keep your 5 zealots in your main while they bring their dragoons to your base and then can micro them against the zealot. If horang2 didn't tech after 2 zealots in this game, I feel he wouldn't have been unable to defend with only zealots at his base. I know he still lost afterward but I feel it was just because of kal extremely good micro.
So, what is your take on this? Would you still make 5 zealots in this situation and if yes how would you react?
If I were to just do something like 2 gate ranged goon into expo, you say you would cut probes for goons and place a few cannons. How much would this erode your economy advantage?
With sc2 coming out, it makes me even happier when people write guides for broodwar. I still have friends that come up to me asking how they can start playing starcraft because i talk about it so much, and a community that never goes away helps in luring them in
On July 22 2010 02:02 OneOther wrote: endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
Hi Frozen,
I tried it 2 times yesterday on Fighting Spirit.
I lost the first one because of bad macro to his 3 gates goon reaver push, after I defended successfully his first attack. I guess I wasn't used to have that much money that early in PvP :D
I lost the second one vs a guy who went 2 gates zeal + battery. He played it smartly as when my first zeal was ready I used it to block the ramp. His scouting probe had already made a pylon in front of my nat. He used his 2 zeals to reverse block my ramp while building a battery so I couldn't build mine. I decided to cut probes asap and add a 3rd gate, but he added a proxy at my nat with his battery. What he did very well, is that his zealots that blocked my own ramp where in range of his battery. He soon added a second battery. So even if he had less zeals, I couldn't surround his, and couldn't go out either as the 2 batteries where constantly recharging shield.
How could I adapt ? Just keep blocking my cliff and quick tech, since he sacrified his eco and tech to proxy + battery ? Or instead of adding a 3rd gate I could have made cannon on the high ground to shoot his zeals + battery on my nat ?
I haven't watched your replays yet as I really wanted to try the build, but I will tonight ! It's probably the best way to learn. And the fact I defended the first attack of the first game vs core-zeal double gate goon is enough to convince me the build is definitely viable. I just need to learn how the extra money coming from the FE.
On July 22 2010 02:02 OneOther wrote: endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
How could I adapt ? Just keep blocking my cliff and quick tech, since he sacrified his eco and tech to proxy + battery ? Or instead of adding a 3rd gate I could have made cannon on the high ground to shoot his zeals + battery on my nat ? Thanks !
You can probe drill the opponent off your ramp, if you at any point let him wall you in.
On July 22 2010 02:02 OneOther wrote: endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
How could I adapt ? Just keep blocking my cliff and quick tech, since he sacrified his eco and tech to proxy + battery ? Or instead of adding a 3rd gate I could have made cannon on the high ground to shoot his zeals + battery on my nat ? Thanks !
You can probe drill the opponent off your ramp, if you at any point let him wall you in.
I thought about it, but when you drill, your probes surround his zeals, so because it's on a ramp, your own probes prevent your zeals to hit his zeals. Plus he had battery so it would have taken forever to probe drill efficiently. Probe drill could work if I use it to move his zeals and he doesn't re-position them asap. Or maybe I didn't understand well how you wanted to probe drill.
On July 22 2010 02:02 OneOther wrote: endy: Again, not sure why it's never used anywhere. It's such a strong build. Thanks for your kind words though, and I encourage you to try it out.
How could I adapt ? Just keep blocking my cliff and quick tech, since he sacrified his eco and tech to proxy + battery ? Or instead of adding a 3rd gate I could have made cannon on the high ground to shoot his zeals + battery on my nat ? Thanks !
You can probe drill the opponent off your ramp, if you at any point let him wall you in.
I thought about it, but when you drill, your probes surround his zeals, so because it's on a ramp, your own probes prevent your zeals to hit his zeals. Plus he had battery so it would have taken forever to probe drill efficiently. Probe drill could work if I use it to move his zeals and he doesn't re-position them asap. Or maybe I didn't understand well how you wanted to probe drill.
stack probes, click on a mineral patch at your natural, and when they're behind his zealots (lower on the ramp) move your zealots and probes to attack simultaneously? = surround attack, and your dps should be better than his recharging + attack rate
I tried this build out a couple of times, and it worked very well I used to try going 12 nexus with 2 zealots off of one gate instead of 5 off of two, but this build is very much more versatile and is surprisingly good at buying time / damaging goons. Thanks for your work man!
Interesting build. I've tried a variation of this before, but the important thing is that people wreck me by sending their first zealot directly to my base and it usually wreaks havoc before i can get my first zealot out. It's a huge nuisance. any suggestions?
I have not tested this build, but should it not get into trouble vs people with good goon micro who send their first zealot to harass you while getting 2/3gate rangegoons? Unless you are just sending your zealots mindlessly toward him and dont try to stop the zeal harass he should be able to get his first goon to your base before you can send them toward him?
coming from a d ranked player, I have tested this build a couple times and it is so useful. resources are so much higher that once you hold off the initial attacks (saying the other protoss went 1 base), you have such an advantage that you can just steam roll him. I have lost once to like 3-4 manner pylons in my mineral line which then proceeded to some zealots before I had enough money to produce any gateways
@Zepish/Oystein: the five zealot and goon timing are much earlier for this build than you think though. You will always have your first zealot out by the time he arrives, so you can choose to block your ramp until you get more zealots. By the time you get five, you need to send four zealots to his base, leaving one behind to chase the one that's left. A lot of it comes down to micro at that point, but you will be at least buy time/scout what he's doing/maybe get probe kills with your zealots.
@manymunkies: I am glad to hear it went pretty well. But yeah holding off some form of attack is the hardest part but once you do, you will be at a huge lead.
@falconbeach: you are doing the build wrong if his first zealot arrives that early and wreaks havoc. I suggest you watch some of my replays.
@endy: watch my replays! I encounter almost the exact same things you lost to, and you can get a basic grasp of how to deal with them. Good for you for trying it out though and better luck next time.
This build doesnt work when the rush distance are close? For example on python? cuz i just played a game where i was 3 my opp was at 6 and his zeal got up my ramp right as my first zeal spawned. and i build stuff like RIGHT as i got enough minerals to get the stuff. (example once i got 150 minerals i got gate, not at 175 minerals, like exactly as soon as possible)
. if he 2gate zeal with continual zeal production should i go to 3 gates, not get gas until he does (or whenever i can get gas + defending), and throw down a shield bat?
@Sky.Technique - this build works in most cases, even in close positions, as long as you maintain a solid micro and constant zealot production. I mean it's clearly harder if the bases are close, but still defendable. 3v6 Python should be fine.
One important note: try building your gateway as close as possible to the ramp so it can arrive there before your opponent's first zeaot. If you want, I would be more than happy to review specific problems in your play if you uploaded a replay here or PMed me one.
Lastly, if he's sticking with two gate, you do not need to go three gates nor do you need a shield battery. Just have three probes fighting with your zealot force and do not engage him until you have even number of zealots, which WILL inevitably happen (his reinforcement zealots haven't arrived yet)
I tried this against my buddy I usually play against (we're both D+ levelish) I got scouted immediately on Othello... not close positions though. I defended my opponent pretty well... his zealot came way later than I expected. With some good probe micro, and zealot pumping, he was way behind. He expanded, which I couldn't stop because he was still pumping zealots, but he realized he was so far behind he had to try something drastic- he tried to expand again, which I stopped. He managed to get down a Nexus, but the next fight he lost all of his zealots to my reaver. And then it was just a walkover of mass goons and reavers against goons.
Surprisingly effective, especially since we're pretty even in skill and our PvPs usually drag on endlessly.
Nice job zer0das. Good read on various situations and taking the right course of action, as far as I can tell.
Anyhow, I was playing some ladder games earlier today and decided to do this build in a PvP Fighting Spirit. When I scout my opponent I see him doing this exact build down to every detail, so I ask "Woah you do this build, too?" he goes "I saw it on TL." And then I am just like I wrote that! Haha it's a good feeling.
I'm curious how this build stacks up to a 1 gate zznexus build. From the numbers I believe you can get your fifth zealot at the same time with that build w/fewer probe cuts and only one gate, but of course the nexus is later.
On July 23 2010 15:11 Severedevil wrote: I'm curious how this build stacks up to a 1 gate zznexus build. From the numbers I believe you can get your fifth zealot at the same time with that build w/fewer probe cuts and only one gate, but of course the nexus is later.
If I scout that build, I would build zealots from both gates non-stop to keep pressuring him. Then he would be forced to cut probes/add gates and so on just to survive, which nullifies any advantage - which I don't really see in the first place. You hardly cut any probes with the FE build in the zealot stage
At D/D- I'm too afraid to try this simply because 80% of pvps I play end up being on a 2-player map where the other player proxy gates. Maybe I should play more FS and less HBR?
Btw, as my name implies, I do love you very much, mr. oneother.
i just tried this last night on python playing 9v12 positions against a C-/C. I was scouted immediately, but once his first zealot got to my gateway my zealot popped out at the same time. Before I even got to goons the game was over since he tried to go 2 gate robo. The 12-14 gate timing is just like the normal 10-12 , 2 gate zealot timing in terms of zealot count when he gets to your base.
advice to guy on top, if you're D/D- stick to a single popular map that is easy to get games on. FS/Python works well. Your learning curve is gonna be very difficult for all aspects of the game if you are playing many maps.
I've only explored FE builds in pvp slightly. The three viable options are: FE 1-2zealot expand 2gate zealot expand.
12/13neuxs fe-scout has serious problems with proxy 9/9gates...only chance is hell is if you scout it and cancel nexus. 1-2zealot expand can possibly scout proxy and adapt before expo...though its still serious trouble since you started on 1gate. 10/12 gate zealot expand rapes proxy gates. This gives a taste of the issues involved with each build.
As far as this guide the opening bo and responses seem largely good, but I would like to see more of the timing involved vs the various openings. Already mentioned, is that a player can possibly scout you and go 1-2zealot expand and then you hardly have any advantage. The remaining issue to my mind is 13core (think 10/15gate pvt here). The zealots are too late to do any real damage, then you will have to deal with many range goons. So that seems to be the main issue with why fe is not done more often...serious issues vs proxy and 10/15gate.
This build will crush 10/15 gate. I don't know if you skipped over the early zealot pressure part, but going 10/15 gate will leave him widely vulnerable to this. Even if it doesn't do any damage - which it will most of the time - it will buy enough minutes to get sufficient defense up with cannons and goons.
I am not really sure what you mean by a player scouting me and going 1-2 zealot expanding, as FE build is vastly better than any type of gate-expand build, especially on maps like Fighting Spirit. He will die to the initial five zealots unless he cuts a large number of probes to get an extra gateway/more zealots. Clearly the FE runs a risk against hardcore proxy, but it can be defended with good micro. There's no perfect build that counters everything - the great part about FE is that there is "hard counter." You can defend and beat everything with proper mechanics and adjustments.
Two gate-expand seems to be the only decent alternative (not as good as FE), as one-gate zealot is a bad build that will get beaten by just about any build, including the FE. Of course I have an advantage if he goes zealot first and then expands, 12 Nexus warps in incredibly fast. And another important aspect is that I can match his zealot count without any problem.
Some of your assertions puzzle me. The way you describe your build's early pressure would be more fitting of a 10/12 gate, but the nexus and +2 probes early will delay your gateway by 1.5 zealots. This is fast enough to defend any non-proxied zealot aggression, but not fast enough to punish your opponent for much of anything.
I tested some relevant timings: Against 13 core: Your gateway timing is the opponent's core timing. Against ZcoreZ: Your opponent will have 2 zealots and 1 dragoon (with one goon halfway done) when your fifth zealot pops. But by the time you get to his base, his third goon will just be spawning. Against ZZcoreZ: Your opponent will have 3 zealots and 2 dragoons finished and ready when your 5 zealots reach his base. Against 10/15 gate: You reach N zealots a little faster than your opponent reaches N dragoons, enough so that your 5 zealots can reach your opponent's base slightly earlier than a 10/15 gate's 5 dragoons can reach its opponent's base. You might be able to impede him with zealots long enough to prepare a wall o' cannons.
If the opponent scouts particularly early, they'll be mildly slower than the above.
You should be able to block any non-proxied gateway rush and come out with a heavy econ lead, and certainly 5 zealots are useful to buy time (and bolster your army once you have a real army), but I'm not seeing the counter-aggression. They're too late to punish a fast core, and you'll need at least seven to force a second gateway.
Counter-aggression addressed how to react when you see a 2-3 zealot FE followed by one gate. (or just about any one gate builds e.g. fast tech) I can't see myself losing from losing in that position, as I can constantly pressure with zealots from two gates and force him to cut probes, just to survive.
EDIT: Thanks for testing the timing though! The FE can handle one-base builds, be it one gate or two gate. Proxy is dangerous, but defendable. I like it so much because, as stated before, there is no hard-counter :D
Hmm I guess if my opponent had equal micro, it would be difficult to save my Nexus. It also depends on what type of proxy gate it is. A 10/12 gate proxy is somewhat defendable if I pull 5 probes from mineral line, but a 9/9 gate would be nearly impossible to stop. In that case I would just ditch my expo Nexus and pump non-stop probes to get an economic advantage while holding my ramp. (9/9 proxy gates cut a lot of probes obviously)
Wow, great guide! Thanks so much for helping out! Reading this makes me want to try out my protoss again, but I'm so bad at it I think it's best I fight that urge haha. When I see posts like these it makes me long to improve so I can help out the Broodwar community in a meaningful way. Thanks again!
On July 24 2010 10:29 OneOther wrote: Hmm I guess if my opponent had equal micro, it would be difficult to save my Nexus. It also depends on what type of proxy gate it is. A 10/12 gate proxy is somewhat defendable if I pull 5 probes from mineral line, but a 9/9 gate would be nearly impossible to stop. In that case I would just ditch my expo Nexus and pump non-stop probes to get an economic advantage while holding my ramp. (9/9 proxy gates cut a lot of probes obviously)
How do you plan to hold a ramp against 9/9 proxy gate? Just float probes and block? The first zealot will be in your base far before your first zealot can get out to block the ramp. (which is actually already the case for shortish distance 10-gate-in-base) A smart opponent will just runby your nat and hunt down your probes.
I will be honest and say that I have never encountered the 9/9 proxy gate. I am not sure how timings exactly work out, but I'd be glad to try it out with whoever wants to. It seems pretty obvious that I would have to either cancel (if I scout on time) or sacrifice my expo, and just try to pump as many probes as possible while holding the ramp.
On July 26 2010 10:59 OneOther wrote: I will be honest and say that I have never encountered the 9/9 proxy gate. I am not sure how timings exactly work out, but I'd be glad to try it out with whoever wants to. It seems pretty obvious that I would have to either cancel (if I scout on time) or sacrifice my expo, and just try to pump as many probes as possible while holding the ramp.
I'm not saying this is a bad build, in fact I think it's an excellent build. But it's like a 12-nex against Terran or a 12-hatch against zerg, or a 14CC against anything... they die to early game cheese.
Thus I think this is a build to definitely learn and put into a repertoire, but for people like me who love to play standard against D/D- blowhards who in-base proxy every single game, I don't dare use this build... at least not until (if I ever) get to C. :p
On July 26 2010 11:03 Muirhead wrote: I think the point is that you can't hold your ramp TT He'll have zealots walking around in your main long before you get your first zealot out
He won't even do any damage to your warping in nat and will just runby to kill the probes
Like in PvT a bbsing terran will bunker rush the main and not the nat if facing a 12 nex
Yes, I understand that. But at that point I would know that all I have to do is defend the rush to get and advantage and win. I'd pull as many as 5 probes to defend the rush after cancelling my natural Nexus. From then, he will have extra zealots faster than I will but it just takes one good surround or one bad micro on his part. Again, I would have to play against this to know the specific zealot timings. I just don't think it's as much of an automatic loss as you guys are making it out to be.
@ love1another: thanks, man! You should definitely try this build out on maps like Fighting Spirit, where in-base or hardcore 9/9 proxies are much more rare. Players at lower level will not know how to respond and panic. You will have a lot of fun with this build
On July 26 2010 10:59 OneOther wrote: I will be honest and say that I have never encountered the 9/9 proxy gate. I am not sure how timings exactly work out, but I'd be glad to try it out with whoever wants to. It seems pretty obvious that I would have to either cancel (if I scout on time) or sacrifice my expo, and just try to pump as many probes as possible while holding the ramp.
I'm not saying this is a bad build, in fact I think it's an excellent build. But it's like a 12-nex against Terran or a 12-hatch against zerg, or a 14CC against anything... they die to early game cheese.
Thus I think this is a build to definitely learn and put into a repertoire, but for people like me who love to play standard against D/D- blowhards who in-base proxy every single game, I don't dare use this build... at least not until (if I ever) get to C. :p
I guess the strength of this build depends on how many fundamentally unscoutable cheeses can be employed against it. Like if there are 3 things the opponent can do to all-in and it's fundamentally impossible to do anything but blindly defend against one of them, you'll have a 1/3 chance to win. The fact that pros have tried to but don't currently employ this strat makes me think they view it as something that is strong with sufficient information but fundamentally too blind. Of course, opinions of the build may change if pros explore it more on modern, extremely defensive maps like Fighting Spirit.
EDIT: Fundamentally. By the way I'm a UNC student so you'll have to excuse the hostility
Hmm I am not even really sure what you mean. Every build has a counter build that it's weak against. This FE is no exception. But if you know your opponent's playstyle or are playing on a certain map as Fighting Spirit, there's a really high chance that you won't get hardcore proxy rushed. The build can adapt to just about everything except the hardcore proxy rush.
Are you trying to prove that this build is not perfect? I mean, I already knew that. Every type of economic build has weaknesses against an all-in proxy build. The important reason why I like this build is that reward is usually much higher than the risk involved, especially on modern maps e.g. FS.
EDIT: I also think this is not all that risky or blind. You scout pretty fast, and if you are wary of a proxy, you should always scout the middle. You CAN adapt to early all-ins. Lastly, how was NIT last year?
On July 26 2010 10:59 OneOther wrote: I will be honest and say that I have never encountered the 9/9 proxy gate. I am not sure how timings exactly work out, but I'd be glad to try it out with whoever wants to. It seems pretty obvious that I would have to either cancel (if I scout on time) or sacrifice my expo, and just try to pump as many probes as possible while holding the ramp.
I'm not saying this is a bad build, in fact I think it's an excellent build. But it's like a 12-nex against Terran or a 12-hatch against zerg, or a 14CC against anything... they die to early game cheese.
Thus I think this is a build to definitely learn and put into a repertoire, but for people like me who love to play standard against D/D- blowhards who in-base proxy every single game, I don't dare use this build... at least not until (if I ever) get to C. :p
I guess the strength of this build depends on how many fundamentally unscoutable cheeses can be employed against it. Like if there are 3 things the opponent can do to all-in and it's fundamentally impossible to do anything but blindly defend against one of them, you'll have a 1/3 chance to win. The fact that pros have tried to but don't currently employ this strat makes me think they view it as something that is strong with sufficient information but fundamentally too blind. Of course, opinions of the build may change if pros explore it more on modern, extremely defensive maps like Fighting Spirit.
EDIT: Fundamentally. By the way I'm a UNC student so you'll have to excuse the hostility
Your logic is sound, but clearly a lot of pros don't see it this way. For example protoss FE against zerg 9-pool speed is a build that puts the p economically ahead in any situation if the protoss can successfully scout. Unfortunately, between the time that zerglings get speed and the corsair comes out, an equally skilled zerg player can completely deny scouting information, during which time Zerg has a plethora of options with which to all-in, and P can do nothing but guess.
Again, by this logic, P has a < 1/3 chance of coming out ahead, but yet the FE is still 100% standard.
Yeah I mean it's clearly a really awesome build if it can scout and defend everything but blind proxies
Against an unprepared player it sounds really good too.
But I am wondering what kind of all-ins a standard opening can transition to against this. I have no doubt anything is defendable if it can be scouted, but I guess the question is whether pros could find a way to consistently deny scouting, after opening standard, and pick from enough different cheeses that you can't defend against all of them. No way to know unless people try!
With Zs it is possible to place enough cannons in enough places to completely defend against everything, or at least maintain a good winning percentage. That may put you slightly behind against standard play, so again pros sometimes get greedy in the hopes that their opponent would cheese them in a certain way and not another. But all-in-all, if protoss randomly chooses where to build cannons and Zs randomly choose whether to cheese or not, P gets at least as much shot of winning as if he did something 1 base. I don't know whether that's true for PvP.
And I left UNC the year the won the NC and entered the year they won the NC, so I guess they need me!
The whole idea of the 5 zealots is to guarantee scouting information during that vulnerable period where the FE usually has to give up map control. I think OneOther's evaluation is sound. This is an extremeley strong build if you can get past the early proxy-rush.
I understand the zeals provide scouting, but I'm not sure that an optimally reacting protoss who carefully studied this build would give away too much to them.
No way to know but to have high level players try!
This actually worked aha. i got a buddy that whenever i play PvP with, i usually go two gate robo and its really close, about fifty fifty. but i destroyed him when i did this xD
jsut wondering. does this work for SC2 at all, do you have a similar build?
LOL you had a great response to my question earlier, and ive actually started using your build as my main build, works great ^^ thanks so much
but just for the sake of having fun, what if he elevators like 6 goons in >: ( then you are in BIG trouble LOL because your cannons will be in your nat..your main is wide open :D, youll have maybe a couple goons vs like 6 goons and a reaver T_T"
On July 26 2010 16:22 shinjin wrote: LOL you had a great response to my question earlier, and ive actually started using your build as my main build, works great ^^ thanks so much
but just for the sake of having fun, what if he elevators like 6 goons in >: ( then you are in BIG trouble LOL because your cannons will be in your nat..your main is wide open :D, youll have maybe a couple goons vs like 6 goons and a reaver T_T"
probably use pylons to keep an eye on the edges of your base and stop the elevator before he gets too many goons up.
Unless you rely really heavily on cannons, by the time the opponent has a shuttle to elevator you should have enough units to defend.
I'd worry more about stuff like early dragoons --> force cannons + contain --> Reavers, since you have to push out and claim some space before Reavers arrive to fight them properly. Although according to Frozen you can get enough units.
Anyway I've had some success with ZZnexZgasZcoreZ. I'm still not sure how the two builds compare, but the principle is similar.
On July 26 2010 20:18 Severedevil wrote: Unless you rely really heavily on cannons, by the time the opponent has a shuttle to elevator you should have enough units to defend.
I'd worry more about stuff like early dragoons --> force cannons + contain --> Reavers, since you have to push out and claim some space before Reavers arrive to fight them properly. Although according to Frozen you can get enough units.
Anyway I've had some success with ZZnexZgasZcoreZ. I'm still not sure how the two builds compare, but the principle is similar.
Yeah, you can. I can go into more specifics of how to defend versus goon/reaver timing attacks if more people want. It isn't too difficult.
ZZnexZgas off how many gates? One or two? If it's two, it sounds like a decent build, but one gate is not good. Although I don't know why you wouldn't just FE :o
And yeah, you are right about having enough units for an elevator drop. Having pylons around edges is critical as well. This should be obvious to many of you but the fewer cannons you build, the better it is. I usually build around two, or three if I HAVE to.
The guide is sorely missing timings...so here they are (roughly):
1) mass unit from 12nexus 12nexus-scout, 12gate 1zealot done ~3:05 3z 3:30 5z 4:00 30psi gas+core. Possible to cut probes here and get another 2zealots+2gates before building 2 goons. Then 4x goons If so timing= 4:30 7z 5:05 7z/2g 5:40 6g/7z
2) cannon from 12nexus, if make forge right after 5zealots ~28psi, cannons complete ~4:45...around the time range goons will attack from 10/15
3)proxy 9/9 crossmap on FS 1z done 2:20 Can attack FE players probes before zealot is out. 2nd zealot in base before 3:05...before 1zealot is out. 3rd zealot in base ~3:10, 20seconds before zealots #2-3 are out. 6 zealots in base before #4-5zealots out of 12/14gates.
4) 10/15 gates 1g done ~3:15 3g 3:45 5g 4:15 ~4:45 attack with range 7g 4:45 9g 5:15 ------------- Conclusions: 1) vs 10/15 FE should go cannons so it does not end up in a situation where it are facing range goons with no goons. And in a situation where it has 2goons no range vs 5-7goons with range. Going forge asap after 5zealots means cannons can complete roughly in time for range. But, goons can focus fire down cannons which means mass cannon is needed. Hard to tell what this comes out as if mass cannons survive. I'm not sure about the reaver timing off of 10/15 vs FE, that, expand, and dt drop are only decent options. Other issues include 3goons vs zealots before cannons are up. If you see 10/15 might want to only go 3zealots.
2) vs 9/9 proxy is very rough. However, lets say the fe player scouts proxy in middle they cancel nexus fast and lay down another 2gates asap ~14psi. They will be way behind for the first 3 zealots, but will quickly catch up assuming they can afford zealots with probes getting killed.
3) I did not include timings for z-nexus or zznexus, but these builds can deal with the first 5zealots from FE fine. zznexus can have 5out from 1gate before the 5 from FE arrive. znexus might want to put another gateway down before gas. In any case, these builds are similar to FE, they do not have the paused probe production at 12 and 17waiting for pylon, may be able to kill some probes with early zealot harass, but it also have later nexus. Whatever game plan each player goes for next will make the game.
My first post stands, FE has issues with proxy and 10/15, while a 1gate player is often able to scout FE and respond such as to not be behind significantly (1gate zealot then 1-2zealots to expand). FE variations in pvp are interesting and happen to be especially strong due to people not knowing how to react vs them, but I would not make them your goto (standard) build.
Thanks for your good work on finding out the timings :D The reason why I didn't include timings is because it's much better to learn how the build works by feel and experience, not by numbers on paper. As many of us know, StarCraft isn't a simple game that you can just figure out a build by memorizing things. There are just too many variables and variations.
However, I don't see a problem making this your goto build on maps like FS. Why not? You are not going to choose this build because you are afraid a 9/9 hardcore proxy and a 10/15 gate rush? That sounds pretty unreasonable to me, as both of them are not common openers on Fighting Spirit. By go-to build I mean you should mix it in your play often, not do it everytime. (of course)
Yes, this build has vulnerabilities against 9/9 gate. But as I explained, reward is often much greater than the risk.
As for 10/15 gate rush, I will leave it up to people to decide. I am confident I can stop this rush. And besides, how often do you run into 10/15 gate on Fighting Spirit PvP?
Also, what one gate response are we talking about? This FE build is the best against one-gate type openers. Which directly relates to why it's strong on four-player maps.
EDIT: One important part I forgot to mention is to vary up your builds and playstyles no matter what matchup or map it is. If you like to play against a specific person, mix-up your builds so he thinks twice before doing 9/9 proxy rush in order to kill your FE.
Pretty crazy to still receive PMs regarding this strategy. Good to see people are still playing BW and trying new things. As always, feel free to send me any questions
I made this my PvP standard when it was first published. Went to a little sc1 lan/tourney right before the release of SC2 and this build clowned on fools. Got myself a free copy of sc2 ^^ bigs ups OO
On December 26 2010 10:13 Ry-Masta-T wrote: I made this my PvP standard when it was first published. Went to a little sc1 lan/tourney right before the release of SC2 and this build clowned on fools. Got myself a free copy of sc2 ^^ bigs ups OO
Hahaha are you serious? That's awesome man. Makes me feel really good
i found this build to be great to gain an econ advantage. most tosses that i played tried to abuse earlier goon range tech to harass but the 5 zealots worked really well to stall him before my goons came out.
the only thing that's making me uncomfortable is that i have quite a short time to prepare for a dts
On December 26 2010 18:14 JMave wrote: i found this build to be great to gain an econ advantage. most tosses that i played tried to abuse earlier goon range tech to harass but the 5 zealots worked really well to stall him before my goons came out.
the only thing that's making me uncomfortable is that i have quite a short time to prepare for a dts
yeah but if he goes DTs it's really damn obvious. weak goon pressure, passive army management, etc. i actually love it when he goes DTs because you KNOW you have the game pretty much won if u build two cannons. and you usually get them anyways.
well i had a game vs supernovamaniac and i felt pretty frustrated when i saw the FE cause i had no idea how to react to it so i thought hey what if theres a timing attack? So i did a probe/goon rush but it failed miserably because it was unorganized. So just wondering, could this be countered by any early attacks (such as Zealot/probe or goon/probe excluding proxys)?
On December 27 2010 15:03 Kenpachi wrote: well i had a game vs supernovamaniac and i felt pretty frustrated when i saw the FE cause i had no idea how to react to it so i thought hey what if theres a timing attack? So i did a probe/goon rush but it failed miserably because it was unorganized. So just wondering, could this be countered by any early attacks (such as Zealot/probe or goon/probe excluding proxys)?
I've been really thinking about this build for a long time.
Honestly, unless there's a proxy, any early game can't be countered if the opponent plays decent.
I think best counter would be to make a second gate then expand right away. Using the earlier gas as advantage, start harassing or get faster tech.
I've used this build a fair amount in the past. The awesome thing about this build is that few players, even up to C level, know how to play against it; 50% of the time the opponent goes 1gate DTs or robo, which auto-loses versus the first 5 zealots.
I think that the most reliable counter, if you're playing against 12 nex, is to go 2gate robo into reaver. It's very hard for your opponent to pressure you with zeals if you have decent goon micro, since his zeals are delayed; further, if you deny scouting early enough, your opponent won't know if you're going 2gate or 4gate allin, so he'll have to add cannons to his nat to defend. Then you use the shuttle-reaver to circumvent his defences and stall while you get a good mass of goons, and then bust the nat.
Granted, out of probably a hundred pvp's I've played using 12 nex, I can only recall like two games facing this build - once I lost, and the other time I managed a comeback. So I don't really have any practical experience to back up this claim. You're welcome to message me for a game on iCCup (just4funz), although I'm only sporadically on nowadays.
Oh my god, so cool to see a guide on this. My friend and I experimented with this a lot after we lost to a Korean who did this FE build. It's really good since it really goes against the standard PvP idea of whoever expands without advantage or good defense is going to get steamrolled. Won many a games with this
Also, most players respond to this by (1) early aggression which can be taken down if you know what you're doing or (2) counter-cheese or something of the sort so just be careful and then its pretty much over.
Edit: and like a lot of the other guys are saying, so few people know how to respond to it, it's great!
In my opinion, I think the best counter is to open with a 10/12 double gate opening to pressure with Zealots. This could make you skip a few probes here and there, which negates the economic advantage to some point and stops the five Zealots you will send to his base. After this, he should get Dragoon range as soon as possible (this will keep you on your toes and force some photon cannons), while taking his own expansion with non-stop probe production and either into a 1) two reaver/shuttle timing attack or 2) speed shuttle reaver harass into templar transition. (Similar to what zcxvbn describes)
Who opens two gate on maps like Fighting Spirit and etc anyways? This build is extremely strong against the common one-gate gas openings.
You can, of course, beat ANY build if you play well enough. That's what I like about this build, there is no simple hard counter that you will automatically die to. You will also get a lot of easy wins if your opponent doesn't know how to play against this, which is often the case, and tries to do some gimmicky stuff. (I guess 9/11 proxy gates is a bit different story. Hard to stop that, but at that point you can just throw away your nexus or cancel it if you see it on time and just defend your ramp. You have more probes.)
I had a really satisfying win with this against DTs today. It's a good feeling when you see those DTs, knowing you have a few cannons at home and a base advantage
I doubt you remember, but you were the one who brought me into TL.net. Summer 2008, trolling x.2)'s channel on West. I think you pointed me to some TLAttack vods, which in the end brought me here.
On December 28 2010 11:33 OneOther wrote: My thoughts on the best counter to this build:
In my opinion, I think the best counter is to open with a 10/12 double gate opening to pressure with Zealots. This could make you skip a few probes here and there, which negates the economic advantage to some point and stops the five Zealots you will send to his base. After this, he should get Dragoon range as soon as possible (this will keep you on your toes and force some photon cannons), while taking his own expansion with non-stop probe production and either into a 1) two reaver/shuttle timing attack or 2) speed shuttle reaver harass into templar transition. (Similar to what zcxvbn describes)
Who opens two gate on maps like Fighting Spirit and etc anyways? This build is extremely strong against the common one-gate gas openings.
You can, of course, beat ANY build if you play well enough. That's what I like about this build, there is no simple hard counter that you will automatically die to. You will also get a lot of easy wins if your opponent doesn't know how to play against this, which is often the case, and tries to do some gimmicky stuff. (I guess 9/11 proxy gates is a bit different story. Hard to stop that, but at that point you can just throw away your nexus or cancel it if you see it on time and just defend your ramp. You have more probes.)
I get pretty frustrated when people pull out this build on me because I don't really know what to do. I tend to have pretty good success with it, and I haven't really lost with it for any reason other than me messing up.
Assuming it was too late to go 10/12 2gate pressure > expo like you noted, how would you respond if someone did this to you and you went standard 1/2 gate cyber timing? If you DT rush you are going to lose vs a player that foresees it. If you 1/2 gate reaver he will probably have enough goons out to defend. If you expand you are behind economically.
haha. on a side note, i just played grobyc pvp on fs and he used this build.rep + Show Spoiler +
even though i lost, i thought that i could have clinched the game in the beginning had i sniped his goons instead of probes. my lacking macro ability and losing shuttle/reaver made me lose the game
I feel like a well hidden 3-4 gate goon timing attack to bust your cannons works pretty well vs this. if you cant get the scouting info, its hard to know whats coming, then the timing attack comes and you just dont have enough to hold it assuming they focus a cannon or two down before your zealots can get in the ruckus. I know you say to do the 5 zealot attack but that can be easily held with an early second gate and 2 zealots ramp blocking with goon/probe support. If you suicide the zealots you lose to the push, if u back off you die to the push, i just couldn't work it out so i went back to standard play
On January 01 2011 13:43 JMave wrote: haha. on a side note, i just played grobyc pvp on fs and he used this build.rep + Show Spoiler +
even though i lost, i thought that i could have clinched the game in the beginning had i sniped his goons instead of probes. my lacking macro ability and losing shuttle/reaver made me lose the game
i was in another game when i got the message following it. yeah, that was close man ~_~ I was actually so close to gging when you had about 5-6 dragoons vs my 2 + probes or w/e lol. I don't think I should have pulled so many probes when I saw your shield battery, I lost a lot of mining time and my core was pretty late. I was so glad when I sniped your shuttle though.
On January 01 2011 14:26 Kiante wrote: I feel like a well hidden 3-4 gate goon timing attack to bust your cannons works pretty well vs this. if you cant get the scouting info, its hard to know whats coming, then the timing attack comes and you just dont have enough to hold it assuming they focus a cannon or two down before your zealots can get in the ruckus. I know you say to do the 5 zealot attack but that can be easily held with an early second gate and 2 zealots ramp blocking with goon/probe support. If you suicide the zealots you lose to the push, if u back off you die to the push, i just couldn't work it out so i went back to standard play
i have never lost against 3 or 4 gate dragoon push. with those 5 zealots, you will always get a good sense of what he's doing. further, you must continue sending probes to his base to check how many dragoons he has. if he's trying to hide them, apply some (fake) pressure to see his army. it's just too easy to sense any type of dragoon bust. build cannons, play defense and win.
grobyc: i will address your questions in a later post more thoroughly.
What if they go 3 gate all-in zealot? The opponent would know you have slow tech and will be able to overwhelm with all-in zealots? It comes quite fast even not proxied, and is hard to deal with without enough units.
I really like the guide though, since I like fast nexus builds, Thanks!
I know of the build where they go for 2gate ranged goons and force you to throw down ~4 cannons. Usually 3 cannons, with perfect micro on agressor's side, is not enough - goons are capable of killing cannons from a good angle pretty fast, and most of the zealots end up dying to buy time for the cannons. If they forced enough cannons, they can expand after ~6 goons; with all the probe cut and necessity to "defend against everything because you are blind", it can be an even game.
Now, more interesting choice includes a proxy robo right outside your nat, and reaver crawl with a battery right there.goon number advantage doesn't really matter much in small passages vs a contain and a reaver, and necessity to both get a lot of goons fast and a range(or a ton of cannons) can delay robo, since your gas is slowed down.
First response I see nearly every time I try this build on high ranks. Second, I saw only once, and it worked pretty good - opponent cut a lot of probes, though, so it was totally allin.
On ranks below B- opponents have tried to go for a 2gate zealot-> nexus, or adding proxy gates for 2 or 4 gate zealot attack. Needless to say, against the first I did not even need to cut probes, against second I've cut probes and added a battery for an easy win.
Also, I prefer going for gate -> pylon -> gate. I feel it's stronger economicaly, steel can put pressure on the 1gate opponent, and survives rushes all the same. Unlike the fast expo in PvT, where you need goons out asap for the vulture(s)/scvs/rines are killing the probes, dancing around enemy zealots for extra 15 seconds because they have one more unit, isn't that hard.
On January 02 2011 04:35 J.Dong wrote: What if they go 3 gate all-in zealot? The opponent would know you have slow tech and will be able to overwhelm with all-in zealots? It comes quite fast even not proxied, and is hard to deal with without enough units.
I really like the guide though, since I like fast nexus builds, Thanks!
if you watch the replays one of my opponents actually goes 3 gate zealots
Can you post some reps/tips on beating early goon aggression? Not just 2 gate goon, but like 3-4 gate goon?
I can typically beat it rather easily but I'm not very comfortable playing it and my build seems really sloppy. I don't know whether I should focus on getting range quickly and not dying in the process, getting goons out, getting cannons out, etc.. I also seem to follow up pretty much in the dark when contained.
On January 03 2011 03:41 Jumperer wrote: I rarely lost to this FE build when I was active, but then again I've never actually played you using this build. I'm actually pretty curious to see how I do against it. Are you down for a game or two Mr. PvP FE master?
You do realize the build isn't AS strong if you KNOW I am going to do it? lol
what do you do when someone 9 scouts you in close positions and their probe enters your base before the nexus goes down? go ahead with it? or throw a late gate
On January 04 2011 12:13 saltywet wrote: i dont think there are any adjustments that you can make to a pvp FE build that can fend off 3 gate speedlots.
right, i wouldn't have to make any adjustments because 3 gate speed zealot build is terrible against it. (it's a horrible build in most circumstances). dont jump to those conclusions without trying / putting in some effort
On January 03 2011 09:25 Kiante wrote: what do you do when someone 9 scouts you in close positions and their probe enters your base before the nexus goes down? go ahead with it? or throw a late gate
go ahead and build the nexus. if he's doing some hardcore all-in build, cancel the nexus and defend the ramp. you will have more probes
I really like this build. Becomes my standard pvp build. One thing that I'm struggling with is the timing of the forge/gas/cybercore, sometimes i find my cannons not fast enough to stop the goons aggression (mainly because of my poor micro against early 1-2- zealot harassment), will you have to build the forge before core sometimes?
On January 05 2011 04:09 HaFnium wrote: I really like this build. Becomes my standard pvp build. One thing that I'm struggling with is the timing of the forge/gas/cybercore, sometimes i find my cannons not fast enough to stop the goons aggression (mainly because of my poor micro against early 1-2- zealot harassment), will you have to build the forge before core sometimes?
i face the same problems. My gas/core/forge timing is ALWAYS off. By the time i see he has a couple goons and all i have are lots I'm like shit shit gotta build forge. its usually cuz i'm busy microign the lots and the build doesn't specify a specific timing for gas/core/forge. I feel like with specific supply timings, i would still be able to micro my lots and get them up.
Hmm, I don't think the bo is that good. I am a big fan of standard play is the best
So I just faced this on FS and my response was to keep making zealots from 1 gate whilst i teched to 3 gate goon. It started very well for me as I sent my zealots to probe hunt (your zealots are trash when i get goons so why kill them?) and traded my 3 zealots for 5 probes.
Then he cannoned just enough and when I pushed in and we traded armies, which was very unit efficient for me but was equaled due to his greater economy and I expanded whilst doing so. This left us very very equal (similar tech and food). I should have been ahead however - Im not used to 3 gating so I made too many probes on 1 bases and my nat should have been taken way earlier (also I only had 2 probes on gas lol so couldn't transition to anything fast).
So my argument is that assuming he micros probes better and loses less, but I do my response better next time (was winging it this last game) and get a much faster nat, I think we will be in equal positions. BUT my BO is very very safe, yours makes you vulnerable to some cheese. (I will admit that if I scouted you in cross positions I would scout you late and have to proxy my +2 gates which creates weaknesses for me however).
So in short. Add me muff2n on iccup and face meh! I think that I can arrive into the midgame on par with you.
I also have a question. I followed my goons with cannons because I was worried that he would be teching to dt. If I am 3 gate gooning, can you realistically spare the cash for Dt tech? Or can I just go 3 gate nex robo obs and be fine (assuming I remember 3 probes on gas next time)? I built a forge and 2 cannons because I was scared of the unknown.
I also have a question. I followed my goons with cannons because I was worried that he would be teching to dt. If I am 3 gate gooning, can you realistically spare the cash for Dt tech? Or can I just go 3 gate nex robo obs and be fine (assuming I remember 3 probes on gas next time)? I built a forge and 2 cannons because I was scared of the unknown.
3 gate goon will be defended with a few lots and goons, and mostly cannons. once those are up, the FE-er can def spare the cash for dt as well as temp. I highly doubt you'll be on par econ wise in the midgame against FE. Even if you manage to get 5 probes in the beginning (which is huge), you're gonna have way less gas than him, and fast gas allows him to go dt while getting storm and temps right after the dt, and he can also get obs at the same time.
I also have a question. I followed my goons with cannons because I was worried that he would be teching to dt. If I am 3 gate gooning, can you realistically spare the cash for Dt tech? Or can I just go 3 gate nex robo obs and be fine (assuming I remember 3 probes on gas next time)? I built a forge and 2 cannons because I was scared of the unknown.
3 gate goon will be defended with a few lots and goons, and mostly cannons. once those are up, the FE-er can def spare the cash for dt as well as temp. I highly doubt you'll be on par econ wise in the midgame against FE. Even if you manage to get 5 probes in the beginning (which is huge), you're gonna have way less gas than him, and fast gas allows him to go dt while getting storm and temps right after the dt, and he can also get obs at the same time.
Definitely the thing that worries me most is his access to gas. I don't have enough experience against the build yet, but I am hoping that 3 gate pressure is going to keep him so strapped for cash that he can't afford to go for the 2nd geyser. If he can then Ima have to reevaluate and say Oo. As the aggressive player, Im calling the shots. Ofc Im sure he can read my BO very well but at the end of the day, I can either chose to go for the attack or be satisfied that he spent a lot of cash on cannons.
On January 05 2011 05:37 Muff2n wrote: Hmm, I don't think the bo is that good. I am a big fan of standard play is the best
So I just faced this on FS and my response was to keep making zealots from 1 gate whilst i teched to 3 gate goon. It started very well for me as I sent my zealots to probe hunt (your zealots are trash when i get goons so why kill them?) and traded my 3 zealots for 5 probes.
Then he cannoned just enough and when I pushed in and we traded armies, which was very unit efficient for me but was equaled due to his greater economy and I expanded whilst doing so. This left us very very equal (similar tech and food). I should have been ahead however - Im not used to 3 gating so I made too many probes on 1 bases and my nat should have been taken way earlier (also I only had 2 probes on gas lol so couldn't transition to anything fast).
So my argument is that assuming he micros probes better and loses less, but I do my response better next time (was winging it this last game) and get a much faster nat, I think we will be in equal positions. BUT my BO is very very safe, yours makes you vulnerable to some cheese. (I will admit that if I scouted you in cross positions I would scout you late and have to proxy my +2 gates which creates weaknesses for me however).
So in short. Add me muff2n on iccup and face meh! I think that I can arrive into the midgame on par with you.
I also have a question. I followed my goons with cannons because I was worried that he would be teching to dt. If I am 3 gate gooning, can you realistically spare the cash for Dt tech? Or can I just go 3 gate nex robo obs and be fine (assuming I remember 3 probes on gas next time)? I built a forge and 2 cannons because I was scared of the unknown.
Thanks. Good guide btw.
Your opponent was either terrible or he does not know how to do this build if you killed 5 probes with your initial zealots. The build is only good if the player knows how to executive it properly.
Sure, I will play you. However, I am not sure why you guys think it makes sense to evaluate a build's strength by playing against it when you know that I am going to use it. That's like saying, let me see how strong the PvT Fast Carrier is by playing against it when I know for a fact that you are going to do it. (I am going to adjust everything to counter it) By doing this, you are taking out huge advantage of this build: surprise and uncertainty.
Either way, I will still play you, even though I have not touched Brood War since June. Can you play in a couple hours?
It doesnt matter that I know your BO as I shall play as if I do not know it is coming until the moment I scout that nexus. The same old 8 scout 11 gate 12 gas 14 zeal 18 core 19 zeal that I have used for my last 50 odd games until I scout you.
On January 05 2011 09:27 Muff2n wrote: I'd rather make it the weekend as I am GMT+0.
It doesnt matter that I know your BO as I shall play as if I do not know it is coming until the moment I scout that nexus. The same old 8 scout 11 gate 12 gas 14 zeal 18 core 19 zeal that I have used for my last 50 odd games until I scout you.
I can't play starting the weekend. Can you play right now? Seeing you are on TL you might as well
OneOther, how do you think an FE vs FE pvp game ought to be played? Any difference in timings? I assume you don't need as many cannons since neither player is getting faster goons. You might not need forge too early either actually.
Also I just played a teammate going FE and he went standard and he was able to kill like 6 of my probes . It was harder to defend a zealot + probe than I thought. He was already up my ramp when my first lot came out.
On January 06 2011 04:37 Entaro[AoV] wrote: OneOther, how do you think an FE vs FE pvp game ought to be played? Any difference in timings? I assume you don't need as many cannons since neither player is getting faster goons. You might not need forge too early either actually.
Also I just played a teammate going FE and he went standard and he was able to kill like 6 of my probes . It was harder to defend a zealot + probe than I thought. He was already up my ramp when my first lot came out.
FE vs FE should be played like a standard game on maps like Blue Storm where you usually go up to four gates into robotics/citadel at the same time. Get a cannon only if you feel that he's doing some sort of fast DT rush. Otherwise, just position your goons well along the choke and you should be fine. Players skip reavers most of the time and opt straight for templar tech, using the robo only for observers. This is usually a solid play. Then it becomes the regular map control/templar drops/expanding battle in the center. Please do not hesitate to upload a replay if you would like more specific advice.
You should never, ever lose six probes. I am not quite sure what the problem was, but it was most likely a micro problem. That just takes experience and practice.
The thing about the build is that if your opponent does a 2 gate and has better micro you're fairly screwed. need to be at least even in terms of micro ability so you dont lose your probes while microing with equal zealots (or that 10 second point where they have an advantage before yours pop out).
Also getting supply blocked or forgetting a zealot when being 2-3 gate zealot'd is pretty much game over (happened to me a bit lol)
Ugh, I have a big suspicion that people who take damage from non-proxied 2gate zealots, are trying this build on maps with short rush distance.
Otherwise, just get a battery and run around just a little bit until you match his zealot count; don't take gas too fast, and see if he's adding 3rd/4th gates with your scout - cut probe production for some time if so, and match gateway count. In equal zealot counts, bring some probes to the fight, but be ready to run the ones being targeted. Micro your zealots properly, abuse the strength of battery (it gives a lot of shields; it does not take up gateway production times; unit being recharged isn't hitting so recharge the red zealots who are retreating)
Being 400(could say 300 thx to supply from nexus) minerals in army down in early game pvp is nothing. Gas/core cost that much, and goons, while effective addition to zealot vs zealot fight on a ramp, aren't that much different in strength from just getting your own zealots/battery for defence.
EDIT: yes, you need to be at least even in micro and never miss a pylon. But that's a given, there's not much room for error in any early game opening. Having zcorez vs 9/10 center gates doesn't leave you any freedom for mistakes, either.
On January 04 2011 12:13 saltywet wrote: i dont think there are any adjustments that you can make to a pvp FE build that can fend off 3 gate speedlots.
right, i wouldn't have to make any adjustments because 3 gate speed zealot build is terrible against it. (it's a horrible build in most circumstances). dont jump to those conclusions without trying / putting in some effort
well, u will get raped by it on maps like tau cross/medusa for starters.
second, u will have difficulty scouting it. my first dragoon will be able to kill your probe before my citadel finishes, after this, how would you know if im going for speedlots or DTs?
next, your 5 early zealots cant do any damage to me since ill have even or more zealots (after i kill probe, ill only let you see 1 zealot and 2 dragoons), and at this time i would push you. your 5 zealots would die and i think my zealot speed would kick in once my zealots walk 1/3 of way to your nat (if FS, 1/2 if python) your 4 gateway timing wont be up and you will definitely lose your natural nexus if not killed.
i can follow up with DTs or an expansion of my own after this.
On January 04 2011 12:13 saltywet wrote: i dont think there are any adjustments that you can make to a pvp FE build that can fend off 3 gate speedlots.
right, i wouldn't have to make any adjustments because 3 gate speed zealot build is terrible against it. (it's a horrible build in most circumstances). dont jump to those conclusions without trying / putting in some effort
well, u will get raped by it on maps like tau cross/medusa for starters.
second, u will have difficulty scouting it. my first dragoon will be able to kill your probe before my citadel finishes, after this, how would you know if im going for speedlots or DTs?
next, your 5 early zealots cant do any damage to me since ill have even or more zealots (after i kill probe, ill only let you see 1 zealot and 2 dragoons), and at this time i would push you. your 5 zealots would die and i think my zealot speed would kick in once my zealots walk 1/3 of way to your nat (if FS, 1/2 if python) your 4 gateway timing wont be up and you will definitely lose your natural nexus if not killed.
i can follow up with DTs or an expansion of my own after this.
it appears to me that u dont really fully how the build works or how timings work out i am not gonna get raped on it on any map, especially tau cross/medusa.
second, it's easy to scout. the moment i see that many zealots, i'd immediately know what you are doing. i'd set up a proper sim city and defense with cannons and units to stop it. plus you will have to cut probes here and there to get sufficient number of zealots to do any real damage and to get the speed tech. (cant hide that information with one dragoon) i get a feeling that you didn't watch any of the replays or try to see how the FE build actually works. my five zealots will get to your base by the time your citadel is building, even if you skipped gates/units for it. you "think" that speed finishes by the time ur zealots are on the way after killing my five zealots? it won't happen. i guarantee you that i would never ever get "raped" by this build
On January 04 2011 12:13 saltywet wrote: i dont think there are any adjustments that you can make to a pvp FE build that can fend off 3 gate speedlots.
right, i wouldn't have to make any adjustments because 3 gate speed zealot build is terrible against it. (it's a horrible build in most circumstances). dont jump to those conclusions without trying / putting in some effort
well, u will get raped by it on maps like tau cross/medusa for starters.
second, u will have difficulty scouting it. my first dragoon will be able to kill your probe before my citadel finishes, after this, how would you know if im going for speedlots or DTs?
next, your 5 early zealots cant do any damage to me since ill have even or more zealots (after i kill probe, ill only let you see 1 zealot and 2 dragoons), and at this time i would push you. your 5 zealots would die and i think my zealot speed would kick in once my zealots walk 1/3 of way to your nat (if FS, 1/2 if python) your 4 gateway timing wont be up and you will definitely lose your natural nexus if not killed.
i can follow up with DTs or an expansion of my own after this.
it appears to me that u dont really fully how the build works or how timings work out i am not gonna get raped on it on any map, especially tau cross/medusa.
second, it's easy to scout. the moment i see that many zealots, i'd immediately know what you are doing. i'd set up a proper sim city and defense with cannons and units to stop it. plus you will have to cut probes here and there to get sufficient number of zealots to do any real damage and to get the speed tech. (cant hide that information with one dragoon) i get a feeling that you didn't watch any of the replays or try to see how the FE build actually works. my five zealots will get to your base by the time your citadel is building, even if you skipped gates/units for it. you "think" that speed finishes by the time ur zealots are on the way after killing my five zealots? it won't happen. i guarantee you that i would never ever get "raped" by this build
you wont see that many zealots though, the moment your probe scout dies, ill block my opening with 2 goons and a zealot, and leave you wondering whether im doing a proxy robo, goon rush or DTs. if you make cannons and sim city, your gateway count and probe count will be set behind.
youir biggest problem is that you are so sure that you will be able to scout everything. you wont be able to see so many zealots in time to deal with it quickly
btw i know my timings, and i know that my citadel would be halfway finished by the time your first zealot pops if you 12 nex, and my legspeed wiould be finished by the time i walk 7 zealots halfway to your base
On January 04 2011 12:13 saltywet wrote: i dont think there are any adjustments that you can make to a pvp FE build that can fend off 3 gate speedlots.
right, i wouldn't have to make any adjustments because 3 gate speed zealot build is terrible against it. (it's a horrible build in most circumstances). dont jump to those conclusions without trying / putting in some effort
well, u will get raped by it on maps like tau cross/medusa for starters.
second, u will have difficulty scouting it. my first dragoon will be able to kill your probe before my citadel finishes, after this, how would you know if im going for speedlots or DTs?
next, your 5 early zealots cant do any damage to me since ill have even or more zealots (after i kill probe, ill only let you see 1 zealot and 2 dragoons), and at this time i would push you. your 5 zealots would die and i think my zealot speed would kick in once my zealots walk 1/3 of way to your nat (if FS, 1/2 if python) your 4 gateway timing wont be up and you will definitely lose your natural nexus if not killed.
i can follow up with DTs or an expansion of my own after this.
it appears to me that u dont really fully how the build works or how timings work out i am not gonna get raped on it on any map, especially tau cross/medusa.
second, it's easy to scout. the moment i see that many zealots, i'd immediately know what you are doing. i'd set up a proper sim city and defense with cannons and units to stop it. plus you will have to cut probes here and there to get sufficient number of zealots to do any real damage and to get the speed tech. (cant hide that information with one dragoon) i get a feeling that you didn't watch any of the replays or try to see how the FE build actually works. my five zealots will get to your base by the time your citadel is building, even if you skipped gates/units for it. you "think" that speed finishes by the time ur zealots are on the way after killing my five zealots? it won't happen. i guarantee you that i would never ever get "raped" by this build
you wont see that many zealots though, the moment your probe scout dies, ill block my opening with 2 goons and a zealot, and leave you wondering whether im doing a proxy robo, goon rush or DTs. if you make cannons and sim city, your gateway count and probe count will be set behind.
youir biggest problem is that you are so sure that you will be able to scout everything. you wont be able to see so many zealots in time to deal with it quickly
btw i know my timings, and i know that my citadel would be halfway finished by the time your first zealot pops if you 12 nex, and my legspeed wiould be finished by the time i walk 7 zealots halfway to your base
i will be able to see what you are doing with my zealots. (please take your time to read my guide or watch the replays. the fact that you suggest you will be able to stop me from scouting with a zealot/two goons tells me u didn't bother to do either) you will not have enough units to stop me from figuring out what you are doing. you will have to cut probes for the zealots and tech if you wanna do any sort of damage, so as long as i survive, i will win hundred percent.
it's not a problem. i will be able to scout what you are doing.
it seems to me that you have inadequate knowledge or skill level to really support your case. or at least, for the good of everyone, please read the guide more carefully and watch the replays so we are at least on the same page. you can say that you read it all you want, but it's clear from what you are saying that you do not know/understand the build at all.
if you want to prove yourself, feel free to PM me or message me on iccup on Derivatives. im sorry, but from what you are posting, i am going to dismiss you as a stubborn poster without the sufficient knowledge or skill of the game.
On January 06 2011 22:51 Ricjames wrote: Saltywet if you go core to get the speed asap his 3-5 zealots will be able to enter your base and scout your build...
hi i have been playing against this for quite a bit now.
since you have a much delayed tech, the idea is to abuse this with goon range. even with the first 5 zealots, it is hard for the zealots to deal with 4-5 goons microed to kill each off 1 by 1.
because of the delayed tech, your goon numbers are much smaller to mine. even with 2-3 cannons, using 6-8 goons to snipe each cannon can negate cannon defence.
here's a rep. i'm still low d+ this season and my opponent was c-rep when i watched the rep, i felt that even if he had gone for a forge right after his core, he wouldn't have had enough goons in time to defend against my superior goon number with range. coupled with the fact that my attack would happen when you are either having at most 1-2 cannons up and probably a few more building.
i follow up with dts because my assumption is that since you are committing so many cannons in the front, you wouldn't be able to afford making any in either the main or a few defended cannons at the min lines. so if my goon harass is successful, then the dts will most likely seal the game.
hope for some of your feedback.
edit: i watched the rep of you against photo and i felt that he dealt with it poorly. not undermining his skill because he is probably way superior than i am.
firstly, he played against you with the intention of teching to dts. even with your scouting probe in his base, he still started his citadel. for you, all it needed was just a cannon or 2 in your nat and you'd be far ahead.
in contrast, me getting a second gateway slightly earlier will give me the goon numbers i need to combat against the first 5 zealots that will be sent out.
On January 10 2011 01:21 JMave wrote: hi i have been playing against this for quite a bit now.
since you have a much delayed tech, the idea is to abuse this with goon range. even with the first 5 zealots, it is hard for the zealots to deal with 4-5 goons microed to kill each off 1 by 1.
because of the delayed tech, your goon numbers are much smaller to mine. even with 2-3 cannons, using 6-8 goons to snipe each cannon can negate cannon defence.
here's a rep. i'm still low d+ this season and my opponent was c-rep when i watched the rep, i felt that even if he had gone for a forge right after his core, he wouldn't have had enough goons in time to defend against my superior goon number with range. coupled with the fact that my attack would happen when you are either having at most 1-2 cannons up and probably a few more building.
i follow up with dts because my assumption is that since you are committing so many cannons in the front, you wouldn't be able to afford making any in either the main or a few defended cannons at the min lines. so if my goon harass is successful, then the dts will most likely seal the game.
hope for some of your feedback.
edit: i watched the rep of you against photo and i felt that he dealt with it poorly. not undermining his skill because he is probably way superior than i am.
firstly, he played against you with the intention of teching to dts. even with your scouting probe in his base, he still started his citadel. for you, all it needed was just a cannon or 2 in your nat and you'd be far ahead.
in contrast, me getting a second gateway slightly earlier will give me the goon numbers i need to combat against the first 5 zealots that will be sent out.
the 5 zealot timing hits when you have two zealots and one goon with the second goon about to finish. how are you getting 4-5 goons out in time to defend it? are you opening 10/15 gate? why would a dt follow up be good? if you break his canon line he is dead already so there is no point of dt. if anything your dts are are slowing down your timing for a goon bust.
the best way of deal with this is straight zealots out of 1 gate and even cancelling your gas if you can. followed up with a second gateway. and then you can play from even footing from there
if u push out with your 1 zeal and 2 goons, you have ground to micro your goons against his zealot to wear them down and to delay them.
by this time, you'd have around 3-4 goons already, which is way enough to push the 5 zealots back.
and why would you just spam zeals out of 1 gate? his build is essentially a delayed 2 gate zeal rush with 5 zealots but a much better economy. since you are ahead in tech, you can do so much harassment with your much faster goon range.
and maybe ur right with the dt thing. probably 3 gate goons can finish him off.
I think the DT goon follow can be good, I have lost to this kind of builds when i coudlnt correctly guess they are going DTs. I usually just build 2-3 cannons, becoz i prefer more gateways to have a higher goon count, so i think ur build can be ok. You just need to prevent ur opponent from guessing what u are doing.
On January 10 2011 09:46 JMave wrote: if u push out with your 1 zeal and 2 goons, you have ground to micro your goons against his zealot to wear them down and to delay them.
by this time, you'd have around 3-4 goons already, which is way enough to push the 5 zealots back.
and why would you just spam zeals out of 1 gate? his build is essentially a delayed 2 gate zeal rush with 5 zealots but a much better economy. since you are ahead in tech, you can do so much harassment with your much faster goon range.
and maybe ur right with the dt thing. probably 3 gate goons can finish him off.
last time i checked 2 zeals and 1 goon dont kill 5 zealots. by the time the zeals get there you have your second goon. again if you want to practice this i am all for it. the nexus first build actually sacks a lot of probes so no it isnt that strong economically so by expanding right behind him your actually pretty even.
if you put goon pressure on, you HAVE to follow up with a robo. how are you suppose to know if the follow up is templar tech or not? if you expand off of goon pressure then you will die to dt. 3 gate goon wont kill it. he just needs to build canons and hes safe. hes still a whole lot ahead of you because hes making probes from two nexus as well as having 8 more mineral patches. on top of your goon pressure you have to get a robo which slows down your expo sooo much.
again your idea might work vs low ranked players but come the blue ranks with good execution of nexus first, you are going to end up behind
On January 10 2011 09:46 JMave wrote: if u push out with your 1 zeal and 2 goons, you have ground to micro your goons against his zealot to wear them down and to delay them.
by this time, you'd have around 3-4 goons already, which is way enough to push the 5 zealots back.
and why would you just spam zeals out of 1 gate? his build is essentially a delayed 2 gate zeal rush with 5 zealots but a much better economy. since you are ahead in tech, you can do so much harassment with your much faster goon range.
and maybe ur right with the dt thing. probably 3 gate goons can finish him off.
last time i checked 2 zeals and 1 goon dont kill 5 zealots. by the time the zeals get there you have your second goon. again if you want to practice this i am all for it. the nexus first build actually sacks a lot of probes so no it isnt that strong economically so by expanding right behind him your actually pretty even.
if you put goon pressure on, you HAVE to follow up with a robo. how are you suppose to know if the follow up is templar tech or not? if you expand off of goon pressure then you will die to dt. 3 gate goon wont kill it. he just needs to build canons and hes safe. hes still a whole lot ahead of you because hes making probes from two nexus as well as having 8 more mineral patches. on top of your goon pressure you have to get a robo which slows down your expo sooo much.
again your idea might work vs low ranked players but come the blue ranks with good execution of nexus first, you are going to end up behind
i don't think he sacks alot of probes to make his nexus? its a 12 nexus through constant probe production. the only way i see it is that he's cutting probes is for 2 gateways and pumping out the 5 zealots.
so like you said that even if i didn't expand and stayed on 2 gate and my army size would be far inferior to his 5 zealots, that means me expanding right after him is going to kill me?
maybe my opponent in the rep i posted was lack luster but i was able to kill off his 5 zealots with 1 zeal, 2 goons and following up with reinforced goons. if killing his 5 zealots happens, then he will have to spam alot of cannons, sacrificing resources for cannons instead of goons. at this point, his nat economy hasn't really kicked in. so he should not have that many goons himself and cannons still warping in. this is the timing to hit.
so what kind of build will you be suggesting? if i expand right away, i die to his 5 zealots. if i apply goon pressure i need to follow up with a robo but that would slow down my expansion. since you're saying goon pressure won't work against his cannons, then what build should i go?
On January 10 2011 01:21 JMave wrote: hi i have been playing against this for quite a bit now.
since you have a much delayed tech, the idea is to abuse this with goon range. even with the first 5 zealots, it is hard for the zealots to deal with 4-5 goons microed to kill each off 1 by 1.
because of the delayed tech, your goon numbers are much smaller to mine. even with 2-3 cannons, using 6-8 goons to snipe each cannon can negate cannon defence.
here's a rep. i'm still low d+ this season and my opponent was c-rep when i watched the rep, i felt that even if he had gone for a forge right after his core, he wouldn't have had enough goons in time to defend against my superior goon number with range. coupled with the fact that my attack would happen when you are either having at most 1-2 cannons up and probably a few more building.
i follow up with dts because my assumption is that since you are committing so many cannons in the front, you wouldn't be able to afford making any in either the main or a few defended cannons at the min lines. so if my goon harass is successful, then the dts will most likely seal the game.
hope for some of your feedback.
edit: i watched the rep of you against photo and i felt that he dealt with it poorly. not undermining his skill because he is probably way superior than i am.
firstly, he played against you with the intention of teching to dts. even with your scouting probe in his base, he still started his citadel. for you, all it needed was just a cannon or 2 in your nat and you'd be far ahead.
in contrast, me getting a second gateway slightly earlier will give me the goon numbers i need to combat against the first 5 zealots that will be sent out.
the 5 zealot timing hits when you have two zealots and one goon with the second goon about to finish. how are you getting 4-5 goons out in time to defend it? are you opening 10/15 gate? why would a dt follow up be good? if you break his canon line he is dead already so there is no point of dt. if anything your dts are are slowing down your timing for a goon bust.
the best way of deal with this is straight zealots out of 1 gate and even cancelling your gas if you can. followed up with a second gateway. and then you can play from even footing from there
i still don't understand this. the whole point about getting the 5 zealots is to force your opponent to match your zealot count. even with my second gateway, there's nothing i'll be able to do to disrupt his economy. with his 5 zealots at my ramp and him seeing me having alot of zealots, he can just retreat into a cannon defense in his nat. i'll have to play catch up all game because firstly, i need to cannon up my nat before i can take it because like you said, i don't know if he's going for templar tech, leaving me even further behind.
you skip probes at 12. because youre doing 12/14 gate. then throughout the build you need to skip a couple of probes to make everything fit. economically it isnt as good as you think. and my bad i really messed up what i wanted to say. the best thing to do is get 1 gate then expand then get the second gate to match his zealot count. so youre doing something like expand off of 1 zeal at like 18 food. Continuous zealot production off of that 1 gate and adding another. this way you go into the mid game absolutely even.
im not saying goon pressure cant work, im saying it shouldnt work because he just needs canons and to get to templar tech to survive and then you are behind. reaver play can be good but its essentially all in in this situation in the sense that if you dont kill him straight up, your expo isnt up until 2 gates (or 3) and reaver tech while he has had his since 12 food. dt drop is just retarded because you can get blind countered by goons and a canon in the main as well as you need to rely on very few units at the start to get a good timing on your drop.
On January 13 2011 13:54 iw-darins888 wrote: what if both you and your opponent decided to go for this build? What should you do to take the advantage?? and how would you react to it?
I second this question.
I actually found myself in this situation against Kiante a while back. When I scouted it, I basically just didn't build any cannons and went straight for gateways and templar tech since I knew I could just match his unit count. If you see it early, you could probably even get away with not building a forge, although you might want it anyway for upgrades. Overall, I think you'll both reach the mid game pretty quickly and with no huge advantage for either player.
Edit: Also, a practice partner of mine did something interesting after I used this build a couple of times against him. In the third game, he just assumed I was doing the same build and blindly went 14 nex in response. Obviously, this won't work in a normal ladder game, but it's just some food for thought.
Hey guys, I have been really busy with school but I will address your questions (JMave, Sayle, etc) this weekend when I have some time. Thanks for your patience.
On January 13 2011 13:54 iw-darins888 wrote: what if both you and your opponent decided to go for this build? What should you do to take the advantage?? and how would you react to it?
On January 06 2011 04:37 Entaro[AoV] wrote: OneOther, how do you think an FE vs FE pvp game ought to be played? Any difference in timings? I assume you don't need as many cannons since neither player is getting faster goons. You might not need forge too early either actually.
Also I just played a teammate going FE and he went standard and he was able to kill like 6 of my probes . It was harder to defend a zealot + probe than I thought. He was already up my ramp when my first lot came out.
FE vs FE should be played like a standard game on maps like Blue Storm where you usually go up to three/four gates into robotics/citadel at the same time. Get a cannon only if you feel that he's doing some sort of fast DT rush. Otherwise, just position your goons well along the choke and you should be fine. To be able to maximize your advantage, it's important that you scout well to figure out how many units he's exactly getting so you can pump out as many probes as possible while getting the necessary units and tech. Again, it becomes an adjustment game. If you are opponent is doing some early push (and you need to scout this), you will obviously need to add more cannons. If not, push the advantage. I know this is easier said than done, but it will take some practice and experience. Players skip reavers most of the time and opt straight for templar tech, using the robo only for observers. This is usually a solid play. Then it becomes the regular map control/templar drops/expanding battle in the center. Please do not hesitate to upload a replay if you would like more specific advice.
Watching the reps from IEF 2010, one of the foreigners (I think it was Vulture) tried this build against Stork on Andromeda. Needless to say, Vulture got totally manhandled. It helped that Stork scouted him first, but Stork just rallied his gateway to Vulture's base and killed an ungodly amount of probes w/ his Zealots, while taking an expo of his own. Can I get your thoughts on this OneOther?
Hey ArvickHero, could you upload the replay if possible?
I have not watched the game and I am not sure what exactly happened. I am sure the fact that Stork is probably the best Protoss player ever, especially in 2010, would not help Vulture's case though. I have never even heard of Vulture haha.
But if you could upload it, I'd love to watch it and write my thoughts on it.
On January 27 2011 14:58 OneOther wrote: Hey ArvickHero, could you upload the replay if possible?
I have not watched the game and I am not sure what exactly happened. I am sure the fact that Stork is probably the best Protoss player ever, especially in 2010, would not help Vulture's case though. I have never even heard of Vulture haha.
But if you could upload it, I'd love to watch it and write my thoughts on it.
Rep pack of IEF2010 can be downloaded here : [url blocked]
I find that if you play this build against someone better at micro than you, and they 2 gate (either blind or scout your early) its pretty damn hard However if you really focus on pulling yuour probes, drilling, and making sure u keep making zealots you can win. But yeah, dont try vs stork
That build is automatic gg vs the agresive manner pylon, probe hunt, wich any smart and confident player (white-ra does that a lot, and even if im a total noob compared to him, i won most of my pvps like that),will pull off as soon as they went 1 gate and see your nexus.I think most ppl know about this.
On February 08 2011 01:54 iloveav wrote: That build is automatic gg vs the agresive manner pylon, probe hunt, wich any smart and confident player (white-ra does that a lot, and even if im a total noob compared to him, i won most of my pvps like that),will pull off as soon as they went 1 gate and see your nexus.I think most ppl know about this.
Assuming you went for the standard 10 gate in your main, my first zealot will pop out just in time to defend your first zealot, and I will be able to match your zealot count even if you went 10/12 gate* (pretty uncommon on big maps like FS) due to the walking distance. If you manner pylon my minerals, I will simply transfer more probes to my natural so that my main only has about 1 probe per patch, which completely negates one effect of the manner pylon: causing probes to go around to the back of the mineral line and thus lose mining time. At most, you will trap one probe, which I think is acceptable considering my econ advantage. It is certainly possible to do good damage with good zealot micro, but it is by no means an "automatic gg".
*A side note on facing 10/12 gate. As Kiante says, it's pretty hard against someone with really good micro. Your zealots will actually pop out a fraction after their zealots reach your base (in close positions), so it's pretty nerve-wracking to deal with. I usually throw down a shield battery as soon as I see this, and I've been experimenting with pulling different amounts of probes to the natural to help defend. As I said though, 10/12 is pretty uncommon on a map like FS.
What you guys think is the best counter to this strategy pulled by decent player:
1. I managed to beat it with fast dt drop into storm drops, but good player would be able to defend that. If it fails, you are dead no matter what.
2. Also beatable with perfect timing reaver goon push, but when it fails you are very much behind and good player will roll you with an advantage of faster third or even straight of 2 base, because your nat will be much later than his.
3. I managed to win by surprise 3 gate speed zealot asap. rush. Basically you should be able to take down his nat or make enough damage to get advantage, than you can control map with dt's and transition into storm drop. Problem is that it is countered by more than 3 cannons at the nat or 3 are enough with good micro.
4. Proxy gates zealot bust - very dangerous and with shield battery and good micro he can defend (fails if proxy scouted)
5. Proxy gates goon rush when range is done - my micro might be too bad, but he has 4 gates at that time and with help of probes he manages to defend and i am screwed with no exp. (fails if proxy scouted)
6. Expand immediately and copy the build - play macro war, try to get earlier third without dying or kill him if he is greedy.
On February 08 2011 02:32 Ricjames wrote: What you guys think is the best counter to this strategy pulled by decent player:
1. I managed to beat it with fast dt drop into storm drops, but good player would be able to defend that. If it fails, you are dead no matter what.
2. Also beatable with perfect timing reaver goon push, but when it fails you are very much behind and good player will roll you with an advantage of faster third or even straight of 2 base, because your nat will be much later than his.
3. I managed to win by surprise 3 gate speed zealot asap. rush. Basically you should be able to take down his nat or make enough damage to get advantage, than you can control map with dt's and transition into storm drop. Problem is that it is countered by more than 3 cannons at the nat or 3 are enough with good micro.
4. Proxy gates zealot bust - very dangerous and with shield battery and good micro he can defend (fails if proxy scouted)
5. Proxy gates goon rush when range is done - my micro might be too bad, but he has 4 gates at that time and with help of probes he manages to defend and i am screwed with no exp. (fails if proxy scouted)
6. Expand immediately and copy the build - play macro war, try to get earlier third without dying or kill him if he is greedy.
if you open 2 gate, outmicro and win. if you open 10 gate 12 pylon. just expand after 1 zealot and add a second gateway after the expo. if you open 10 gate 11 gas, it depends on if you scout in time or not. if you scout early, you can either cancel assimilator or let it finish and not mine from it, expand and add second gateway. if you already started mining gas and core is already down then just play 1 gate expo. using goon micro to soften up 1st 5 zealots. then transition into 2 gate robotics with a pretty early citadel. this allows you to defend any dt follow up while getting your own templar pretty early to break any early obs free push. if its obviously going to be a reaver push follow up then, mass goon, get your own reaver, shield battery.
I have been using this build almost exclusively in 4 player maps pvp. (e.g. circuit breakers, FS) I think it's been countered quite well now, as opposed to last season. Espeically if you are scouted early. Generally it can be countered by:
1. some sort of early pressure e.g. 3 gate goons, reavers taht can kill u outright the 2nd gate can be added really fast so dragoons are in time to deal with the 5 zealots, mostly u wont be able to kill many probes
2. 1 gate zeal -> FE, then match gate count, then it mite end of pretty much equal
Anyone knows of any refinement of this build so it can be used more effectively?
edit: I think is the 5 zealot necessary? Maybe a faster tech will be better? Since I think most protoss can now deal with them quite well....
On June 20 2011 00:43 HaFnium wrote: Sorry for the bump.....
I have been using this build almost exclusively in 4 player maps pvp. (e.g. circuit breakers, FS) I think it's been countered quite well now, as opposed to last season. Espeically if you are scouted early. Generally it can be countered by:
1. some sort of early pressure e.g. 3 gate goons, reavers taht can kill u outright the 2nd gate can be added really fast so dragoons are in time to deal with the 5 zealots, mostly u wont be able to kill many probes
2. 1 gate zeal -> FE, then match gate count, then it mite end of pretty much equal
Anyone knows of any refinement of this build so it can be used more effectively?
edit: I think is the 5 zealot necessary? Maybe a faster tech will be better? Since I think most protoss can now deal with them quite well....
if you're losing to 3 gate goon or reaver play you need to re-read the OP. as for 1 gate zeal FE, as long as you dont lose probes to their zealots you're still quite ahead. just be careful with your micro.
On June 20 2011 03:07 Nymph wrote: 3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones)
Got some replays to back this up? or are you just talking out of your ass. just because you beat someone DOING this build with that, doesn't mean it SHOULD work. You probably just played someone who didn't have enough experience with the build. i've never faced what you're saying, but i cant really envision how it would work...
On June 20 2011 03:07 Nymph wrote: 3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones)
Got some replays to back this up? or are you just talking out of your ass. just because you beat someone DOING this build with that, doesn't mean it SHOULD work. You probably just played someone who didn't have enough experience with the build. i've never faced what you're saying, but i cant really envision how it would work...
First thing calm damn a little bit. Second thing Yea I do have replay and you made me browse over 3k reps in my folder to find at least one(bwchart crashes on my netbook when I try to search). Third, ofc you can't imagine since you're a C level protoss+ Show Spoiler +
On June 20 2011 03:07 Nymph wrote: 3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones)
Got some replays to back this up? or are you just talking out of your ass. just because you beat someone DOING this build with that, doesn't mean it SHOULD work. You probably just played someone who didn't have enough experience with the build. i've never faced what you're saying, but i cant really envision how it would work...
First thing calm damn a little bit. Second thing Yea I do have replay and you made me browse over 3k reps in my folder to find at least one(bwchart crashes on my netbook when I try to search). Third, ofc you can't imagine since you're a C level protoss+ Show Spoiler +
Well for starters. you did it wrong. you should probably go re-read the OP. Any data after the massive build order failure is irrelevant.
a) you dropped the 12 nex after being scouted first(better off to just go 12/12 gate at that point because it allows too much time for your opponent to get up to something tricky) b) you went 12/13 gate, its 12/14. as a result your zealot timing was off c) you dropped a forge after 3 zealots? you're supposed to do a 5 zealot push, d) i stopped watching because you obviously had no idea how to 12 nex.
got a proper replay there? or u just gonna be mad.
How to counter this build? Or at least how to go into mid/late game without opponent being too far ahead?
I need some advice.. What to do when you're going 1gate gas zealot and then you scout this?
edit: and I'd mostly appreciate a counter that is not all-in or cheese, but something that will balance the economy between players without risking too much and relying on "luck" and "bad scouting".
On June 20 2011 04:56 Piste wrote: How to counter this build? Or at least how to go into mid/late game without opponent being too far ahead?
I need some advice.. What to do when you're going 1gate gas zealot and then you scout this?
try and do some harass with your initial zealots. You can keep the 12 nexer distracted and kill some probes while dropping a quick nexus and go into the midgame not too far behind. You can always try going allin with whatever build you want, but if the 12 nexer is on their game, it wont work. If you want to kill it early, your best bet is to keep 2 harassing zealots alive while you rally goons and essentially win by way of superior micro. This happens to me sometimes, but its pretty much a case of me just being worse than my opponent. you could also try proxying some gates near their nat and hope they dont scout properly(i do this sometimes. i see no nexus and no tech/extra gates in base and dont put two and two together and just die)
wow Kiante, you sound mad and like C level toss, my zealot timing did not even matter if you watch replay and notice what build this guy used. How about I'll play vs you and use this puppy(obv I'll play according to scout).
On June 20 2011 05:00 Nymph wrote: wow Kiante, you sound mad and like C level toss, my zealot timing did not even matter if you watch replay and notice what build this guy used. How about I'll play vs you and use this puppy(obv I'll play according to scout).
Choose date, just not today.
Why does every argument about builds come down to "OH LETS PLAY LOL" sure, you're a better player than me, but if you're going to make an argument that a build doesn't work against x, at least show a replay of this build being played between two equally skilled players PROPERLY. the replay you've shown here, is wrong. plain and simple.
oh and your build order DID make a big difference. Dropping the forge THAT early means a) your 5 zealot timing is delayed. your tech is delayed. When facing a reaver its important you have enough goons to snipe it before it kills your cannons, and by dropping a forge that early, along with cutting a probe to get a gateway up, all would contribute to that being less than achievable when the reaver rolled up.
On June 20 2011 04:56 Piste wrote: How to counter this build? Or at least how to go into mid/late game without opponent being too far ahead?
I need some advice.. What to do when you're going 1gate gas zealot and then you scout this?
try and do some harass with your initial zealots. You can keep the 12 nexer distracted and kill some probes while dropping a quick nexus and go into the midgame not too far behind.
But with good micro zealot harrass will not work since he doesn't lose probes becouse it's easy to pull them away after one or two hits. zealots can't move trought workers and propably will get hits from 12 nexers zealots. and don't I die when he comes with his 5 zealots and I've already damaged/killed my two zealots?
If you want to kill it early, your best bet is to keep 2 harassing zealots alive while you rally goons and essentially win by way of superior micro. This happens to me sometimes, but its pretty much a case of me just being worse than my opponent.
Okay this sounds something I'd like to test, but what build to use when I start from 1gate gas?
zzcore or z core z ?
harrass with those two zealots and go two gate goons? when to attack with dragoons? immediately when 1st one is out or later with 3? doesn't this die to 12nexers goons since there's still those 5 zealots and it's hard to micro goon vs goon without taking hits from those zealots at tight choke?
The idea of the keeping zealots alive is to do a momentum play and not let the 12 nexer get their tech/cannons in play, so rally the goons down, just 2 gate is enough and start teching to robo. if you keep them busy long enough the reaver should be a finishing blow. a B+ korean did this to me, i'll have a poke around and see if i can find the replay but i think it might've been last season, in which case i wont be able to find it in my match list
*Note about the five zealots: Always make these zealots. Why? Because it allows you to do these critical things in the early game: 1) Forcing him to cut probes to match your gateway/zealot count 2) Getting in his base to scout what he's doing if he one gate teched 3) Fending off any aggressive or proxy zealot builds 4) Afflicting economical damage.
If you're not going to do the build properly. dont comment that it doesn't work.
*Note about the five zealots: Always make these zealots. Why? Because it allows you to do these critical things in the early game: 1) Forcing him to cut probes to match your gateway/zealot count 2) Getting in his base to scout what he's doing if he one gate teched 3) Fending off any aggressive or proxy zealot builds 4) Afflicting economical damage.
If you're not going to do the build properly. dont comment that it doesn't work.
no, because he did 2 gate goon before zealot, nOoNe did this vs Sayle (even as a blind counter) and won all matches or 90% matches if I remember, I have the replays.
On June 20 2011 05:22 Kiante wrote: The idea of the keeping zealots alive is to do a momentum play and not let the 12 nexer get their tech/cannons in play, so rally the goons down, just 2 gate is enough and start teching to robo. if you keep them busy long enough the reaver should be a finishing blow. a B+ korean did this to me, i'll have a poke around and see if i can find the replay but i think it might've been last season, in which case i wont be able to find it in my match list
I'd appreciate replays countering this strat I'd like to see how that korean used his zealots.
On June 20 2011 05:29 Kiante wrote: 1 gate reaver is too fragile. the 5 zealots will wreck you, you really need to go 2 gates quickly to get the momentum in the game.
okay 2gate goons and wait for 2 reavers? then add 3rd gate and rally goons?
Noone is B, sayle is C. not really a valid test imo. i've beaten 10/15 gates (yours was just a regular 2 gate). never go without the 5 zealot push, you need them to buffer for cannon time vs a 10/15 anyway....
If they do 10-15 you need the forge faster, and I would ninja hide a probe somewhere on the map for a timing scout to see if they will all in follow up or expand behind it. Also if you are expanding, I would only transfer about 3 probes, maybe 4 because if they have good micro its more for you to defend if you transfer too many probes.
Robo counter: If you want to do 1gate robo, you need to non stop pump zealots until the robo is done (put 2 probe behind your zealot wall) you should have 4zlots and 5th coming when they do their 5 zlot push.
Other counter: send first zlot to their base to harass (don't lose it, just hit a few probes if you cant kill them), build 2nd gate @ 21 psi (for 2 gate goon) you will have 1zlot+1 goon and 2 more goons coming (they will finish before the 5zots get into your base) when he does his 5 zlot push you can engage @ midfield with your goon, with micro you should be absolutely fine.
On June 20 2011 06:14 dRaW wrote: If they do 10-15 you need the forge faster, and I would ninja hide a probe somewhere on the map for a timing scout to see if they will all in follow up or expand behind it. Also if you are expanding, I would only transfer about 3 probes, maybe 4 because if they have good micro its more for you to defend if you transfer too many probes.
Robo counter: If you want to do 1gate robo, you need to non stop pump zealots until the robo is done (put 2 probe behind your zealot wall) you should have 4zlots and 5th coming when they do their 5 zlot push.
Other counter: send first zlot to their base to harass (don't lose it, just hit a few probes if you cant kill them), build 2nd gate @ 21 psi (for 2 gate goon) you will have 1zlot+1 goon and 2 more goons coming (they will finish before the 5zots get into your base) when he does his 5 zlot push you can engage @ midfield with your goon, with micro you should be absolutely fine.
i disagree with building your forge before 5 zealots regardless of their build order. You have cannons in time to hold the 10/15 if you drop it straight after the 5th zealot(before gas and core) which is fine.
Noone is B, sayle is C. not really a valid test imo.
Because pulling goons back and pressing H takes a lot of philosophy.Anyone above C- should be able to pull it off. If someone knows build order, and knows how to micro goons, should win that. It's hard counter. And this build(12 nex) is not stable. If someone knows how to counter, he'll win.
Noone is B, sayle is C. not really a valid test imo.
Because pulling goons back and pressing H takes a lot of philosophy.Anyone above C- should be able to pull it off. If someone knows build order, and knows how to micro goons, should win that. It's hard counter. And this build(12 nex) is not stable. If someone knows how to counter, he'll win.
As a C player, when i play against a legitimate D player, i can goof off to a large extent and still win comfortably. The same logic applies from C to B. When i hit a player 3 ranks above me, i get my shit pushed in, because they're better than me. All the normal rules dont apply. why not? because everything they do is superior. their micro, their multitasking. A B+ ranked player can micro his 2 zealots to kill like 6+ probes while easily expanding and having goon micro to whittle down whatever is left of my zealot push. A C+ ranked player cant do it.
Works the same with goon micro. A C+ ranked player is going to have a harder timing organising their goon micro well enough to snipe down cannons, whereas the B+ player will be able to do it much more fluidly.
In summary, stop using false/warped information to support your incorrect arguments
Noone is B, sayle is C. not really a valid test imo.
Because pulling goons back and pressing H takes a lot of philosophy.Anyone above C- should be able to pull it off. If someone knows build order, and knows how to micro goons, should win that. It's hard counter. And this build(12 nex) is not stable. If someone knows how to counter, he'll win.
As a C player, when i play against a legitimate D player, i can goof off to a large extent and still win comfortably. The same logic applies from C to B. When i hit a player 3 ranks above me, i get my shit pushed in, because they're better than me. All the normal rules dont apply. why not? because everything they do is superior. their micro, their multitasking. A B+ ranked player can micro his 2 zealots to kill like 6+ probes while easily expanding and having goon micro to whittle down whatever is left of my zealot push. A C+ ranked player cant do it.
Works the same with goon micro. A C+ ranked player is going to have a harder timing organising their goon micro well enough to snipe down cannons, whereas the B+ player will be able to do it much more fluidly.
I don't care about your goofing around vs D players or how you get owned by A or B+ players. I'm saying that 2 gate goon before zealot kills your 12 nex into 5 zealot 90% of the time done by anyone above or in C-/C range if he has brain and all fingers fine because it's hard counter. Show me a replay how to counter it where you played anyone around C level with 5 zealots before forge or cannon and I'm happy.
/edit
+
In summary, stop using false/warped information to support your incorrect arguments
I haven't seen any replay from you since I posted on how to counter anything I said so please, don't call me a liar at least.
Sure. here's a replay of me(when i was C) beating a player who has multiple C- (just reaches your classification, but i couldn't find others) with 5 zealot before forge vs 10/15 gate
ideally i would've liked the opponent to be better. but you set the benchmark not me.
note that the time it takes the 5 zealots to die to the goons just gives me enough time to get the cannons up. its tight, but it works.
edit on your edit/ I've never played a game against 10/15 into 3 gate into proxy robo, hence i couldn't provide replays to disprove. however the ownus of proof here is on you, not me. there is a well respected member of the community who made a guide, provided replays and good strategic analysis. all you offered was a replay of you fucking the build order up.
edit of my edit on your edit/
just to clarify, i AM calling you a liar. I dont want that to be ambiguous. you claimed a build didn't work when you did it wrong.
On June 20 2011 07:22 Kiante wrote: Sure. here's a replay of me(when i was C) beating a player who has multiple C- (just reaches your classification, but i couldn't find others) with 5 zealot before forge vs 10/15 gate
ideally i would've liked the opponent to be better. but you set the benchmark not me.
note that the time it takes the 5 zealots to die to the goons just gives me enough time to get the cannons up. its tight, but it works.
yeah it works just his bad micro sucked, then attacked into these 2 cannons having 1 almost dead goon in front and losing 3rd one also damaged, microing with his 3 goons back instead to go front/dance around in place. I said with fingers and brain. + he is not a real C- since he can't play and keep games on it(I said around C-/C level not D+/C- + I'll be strict to on how he should do it as you were strict on how I should pull of the build) But thanks for replay anyway.
just to clarify, i AM calling you a liar. I dont want that to be ambiguous. you claimed a build didn't work when you did it wrong.
liar.
just to be clear I am saying this build is getting owned by what guy from my replay did vs what you think it should work + your guy played wrong from replay so does not count.
it dies to around C or higher ppl doing 10/15 if you make 5 lots before forge
On June 20 2011 07:22 Kiante wrote: Sure. here's a replay of me(when i was C) beating a player who has multiple C- (just reaches your classification, but i couldn't find others) with 5 zealot before forge vs 10/15 gate
ideally i would've liked the opponent to be better. but you set the benchmark not me.
note that the time it takes the 5 zealots to die to the goons just gives me enough time to get the cannons up. its tight, but it works.
yeah it works just his bad micro sucked, then attacked into these 2 cannons having 1 almost dead goon in front and losing 3rd one also damaged, microing with his 3 goons back instead to go front/dance around in place. I said with fingers and brain. + he is not a real C- since he can't play and keep games on it(I said around C-/C level not D+/C-). But thanks for replay anyway.
dude had 4 or so C- past seasons with 200+ games played. not quite sure how else to satisfy your anal criteria.
On June 20 2011 06:14 dRaW wrote: If they do 10-15 you need the forge faster, and I would ninja hide a probe somewhere on the map for a timing scout to see if they will all in follow up or expand behind it. Also if you are expanding, I would only transfer about 3 probes, maybe 4 because if they have good micro its more for you to defend if you transfer too many probes.
Robo counter: If you want to do 1gate robo, you need to non stop pump zealots until the robo is done (put 2 probe behind your zealot wall) you should have 4zlots and 5th coming when they do their 5 zlot push.
Other counter: send first zlot to their base to harass (don't lose it, just hit a few probes if you cant kill them), build 2nd gate @ 21 psi (for 2 gate goon) you will have 1zlot+1 goon and 2 more goons coming (they will finish before the 5zots get into your base) when he does his 5 zlot push you can engage @ midfield with your goon, with micro you should be absolutely fine.
i disagree with building your forge before 5 zealots regardless of their build order. You have cannons in time to hold the 10/15 if you drop it straight after the 5th zealot(before gas and core) which is fine.
I meant forge before gas or cybernetics, also since when is noone a B RANKED PROTOSS? 10-15 can easily beat this especially if you dont scout him in time, you will have 3 zlots and his 3 goons will be arriving as your 5th zlots are coming out, if hes aggressive with good micro he will win. However, it's very rare that you will even face off against a 10-15gate goon build anyway.
edit: I was just mentioning some counters, no build is 100% win anyway.
On June 20 2011 07:22 Kiante wrote: Sure. here's a replay of me(when i was C) beating a player who has multiple C- (just reaches your classification, but i couldn't find others) with 5 zealot before forge vs 10/15 gate
ideally i would've liked the opponent to be better. but you set the benchmark not me.
note that the time it takes the 5 zealots to die to the goons just gives me enough time to get the cannons up. its tight, but it works.
yeah it works just his bad micro sucked, then attacked into these 2 cannons having 1 almost dead goon in front and losing 3rd one also damaged, microing with his 3 goons back instead to go front/dance around in place. I said with fingers and brain. + he is not a real C- since he can't play and keep games on it(I said around C-/C level not D+/C- + I'll be strict to on how he should do it as you were strict on how I should pull of the build) But thanks for replay anyway.
just to clarify, i AM calling you a liar. I dont want that to be ambiguous. you claimed a build didn't work when you did it wrong.
liar.
just to be clear I am saying this build is getting owned by what guy from my replay did vs what you think it should work + your guy played wrong from replay so does not count.
it dies to around C or higher ppl doing 10/15 if you make 5 lots before forge
You did the build wrong. Now you're saying C or higher? whats the cutoff here? where are your replays?
until you actually do the build right, you're arguing in the wrong thread. Maybe you should make the "how to 12 nex with an early forge after 2 gate" thread and go make your arguments there, because right now you're basically saying you avoid the most important part of the build, infer that it loses with the only proof being a B player vs a C. In that game, i got my forge after gas and pylon IIRC. If i saw a 10/15 now(after how tight that game was) i would've snuck the forge before the gas and pylon. speeding up the cannon timing by about 20 seconds or so, making it alot safer.
to draw: for the purposes of building 4 buildings and microing goons, a B ranked zerg equates to B ranked protoss. I'm not saying Noone would be B ranked in the long game, as his late game play probably isn't practiced as much with toss. But i am saying that noone's 10/15 vs 12 nex micro would be comparable to that of any other B ranked protoss.
The thing is I still think 10/15 played right or proxy reaver how this guy from my replay did is working vs this. Please show me how to counter or stop argueing aswell.
But i am saying that noone's 10/15 vs 12 nex micro would be comparable to that of any other B ranked protoss.
I don't want to diss nOoNe but he is B zerg at best.
His 5h before gas is amazing but his protoss ain't.
So please stop saying what nOoNe is comparable to b or w/e and concentrate on that his offrace(C/C+ max rank if I'm right) is beating 10/15 this build.
On June 20 2011 07:58 Nymph wrote: The thing is I still think 10/15 played right or proxy reaver how this guy from my replay did is working vs this. Please show me how to counter or stop argueing aswell.
But i am saying that noone's 10/15 vs 12 nex micro would be comparable to that of any other B ranked protoss.
I don't want to diss nOoNe but he is B zerg at best that plays very unorthodox cheesy things.
His 5h before gas is amazing but his protoss ain't.
So please stop saying what nOoNe is comparable to b or w/e and concentrate on that his offrace(C/C+ max rank if I'm right) is beating 10/15 this build.
so wait. You come to the thread about a specific build. show a replay of you doing i wrong and getting beaten and use that as evidence to disprove it?
I have the weight of the OP on my side. the burden of proof is on you. you haven't provided sufficient burden of proof. Please provide such proof.
You THINK its working. I haven't seen evidence. I said at the beginning i've never played against that. I CANT provide replays. If you provide a proper replay to disprove it, THEN i'll make the effort to go find a C(not C- anymore apparently) to do some practice with to attempt to disprove you. Until then there is no need.
On June 20 2011 08:19 Nymph wrote: Kiante I can only propose you to play game vs me and check my concerns about OPs build. I think you'd be best since you're so good at this build.
LOL. i never claimed i'm "so good at this build". I'm self-admittedly terrible. A game between the two of us wouldn't be a fair comparison of the build because your micro/macro would be far superior to mine. One of the things with this build is that if you are playing a far superior player, you lose. badly. Much harder than you'd lose with a "standard" build. however if you're playing someone of equal skill, i find the build to be very effective. I'm not an expert, i'm just an enthusiast.
^sounds like a dodge to me lol. After all, you are C+ high and his iCCup's account highest rank (Herro_Korea) is C (but a very good record at that, so probaby higher than C in reality lol).
My 2cents about 12nex is that its not used in the upper levels of BW play for good reason, even between players of "equal skill", simply because no amount of Zealot micro can win vs good Dragoon micro after a certain skill point.
On June 20 2011 08:49 ArvickHero wrote: ^sounds like a dodge to me lol. After all, you are C+ high and his iCCup's account highest rank (Herro_Korea) is C (but a very good record at that, so probaby higher than C in reality lol).
My 2cents about 12nex is that its not used in the upper levels of BW play for good reason, even between players of "equal skill", simply because no amount of Zealot micro can win vs good Dragoon micro after a certain skill point.
the zealots dont have to "win" they simply tank hits and die. buying time
On June 20 2011 03:07 Nymph wrote: 3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones)
Got some replays to back this up? or are you just talking out of your ass. just because you beat someone DOING this build with that, doesn't mean it SHOULD work. You probably just played someone who didn't have enough experience with the build. i've never faced what you're saying, but i cant really envision how it would work...
First thing calm damn a little bit. Second thing Yea I do have replay and you made me browse over 3k reps in my folder to find at least one(bwchart crashes on my netbook when I try to search). Third, ofc you can't imagine since you're a C level protoss+ Show Spoiler +
Why don't you actually go read the OP, watch some replays and execute it properly before you disregard the build or speak condescendingly to other people? Your build was nothing like what I tried to teach through this strategy guide, nor what other players in this thread have been doing.
I stopped watching your replay at the five minute mark. You had already lost the game by then. Why? Because the idea of the build is not to sit back on your ass behind three cannons while he masses up Dragoons and Reavers. Do you think I'm dumb? You don't think I know Reavers exist in PvP? Please read the guide and watch the replays before you try to put down other people's hard work.
Put down gateways at the right time so you can hit proper zealot timings. Don't build a forge and cannons after three zealots. The idea is to do damage, or at least pressure and buy time with five zealots while he has minimal unit count. (I quit watching the replay after you sent out 2 zealots while building cannons on pathetic probe count) Lastly, I emphasized adaptability in my post. If he scouts you first quickly and you think you are in close positions, don't fucking do the build. There is no such thing as an invincible build. (Challenging someone to use this build is also a dumb idea because surprise factor is an element you can't ignore with this strategy)
Also, you are not nearly skilled enough to be throwing down challenges everywhere nor are you good enough to be acting like you deserve some sort of special treatment. Please stop.
EDIT: "lololololol 12 nexus." Haha. Horrible attitude. It must be impossible to get an A on that test because I, the almighty Herro_Korea, can't do it. I used it successfully at the blue ranks so the fault lies in your hands.
I want to clarify that this build is not an universal safe build that has answers to everything. You have to be smart about when or how you use it, and how you adapt to your opponent. It has its counters. All builds do. But before you can execute it properly, you have no ground to talk. You also cannot somehow declare that it is an obsolete build because I have done it many times
Also, you are not nearly skilled enough to be throwing down challenges everywhere nor are you good enough to be acting like you deserve some sort of special treatment. Please stop.
And you won't be telling me where I can challenge or where & telling me how good I am and what I deserve. I'll be throwing challenge to anyone I want - especially if he's at my skill level and it could proof something.
I'll take some serious time now on your build before I post in here.
"lololololol 12 nexus." Haha. Horrible attitude. It must be impossible to get an A on that test because I, the almighty Herro_Korea, can't do it. I used it successfully at the blue ranks so the fault lies in your hands.
I failed at your build and I admit it. But you have horrible approach on how to handle things Judge Dredd.
I'll be brining you proof on how this build is unstable very soon. Ciao
It's very evident that Frozen put a lot of effort into this guide. Like any build, it is going to have faults and you're going to lose many games with it. Nevertheless, he took the time to test it many times and tried to weigh the strength and weaknesses, and it shows in his write-ups about the many situations that can occur. He didn't type this guide up in two minutes, he took a lot of time to work on it.
Show some freaking respect. Coming in here and saying "OMG this build gets hard countered by this build, must suck" and providing one replay for your "proof" is just sad. Arguing with intelligence is welcome, and that is how we all benefit and become better players. Simply posting one liners and disregarding the entire guide is not welcome, and God knows how poor this site would be if we were all like that.
I failed at your build and I admit it. But you have horrible approach on how to handle things Judge Dredd.
Haha well did you want me to respond to your posts with respect? If your posts showed the slightest sign of it, I would have done the same. I meant no personal offense, I just didn't like your arrogant and condescending attitude. All I wanted was you to read the guide carefully and at least execute it semi-properly before shutting it down or disrespecting others who defend the build. I am not sure how you are going to find "proof on how this build is unstable." Every build is "unstable" depending on the situation. I have never claimed that this build did not have weaknesses or certain counters, so there's nothing for you to prove. However, it can be an effective build if done correctly at the right times.
Also, you are not nearly skilled enough to be throwing down challenges everywhere nor are you good enough to be acting like you deserve some sort of special treatment. Please stop.
And you won't be telling me where I can challenge or where & telling me how good I am and what I deserve. I'll be throwing challenge to anyone I want
On June 20 2011 13:25 JMave wrote: is it possible to force as many cannons as possible and expand twice for yourself?
I've never encountered this exact scenario, but my intuition is telling me no, this won't work. I remember one game where I did a 12nex (not stylized like this, it was a noobie 12nex) and my opponent double expanded, and I was able to win straight up with a timing push with a lot of units.
I feel like the investment you make in probes + 3rd nexus delays your tech and unit count leaving an open timing window.... but I'll let the pros answer this question for sure
On June 20 2011 13:25 JMave wrote: is it possible to force as many cannons as possible and expand twice for yourself?
I doubt it, when you are doing this build u want to match the unit count urself, shouldnt rely too much on cannons if i scout like 3 gates i'll usually do 4.
On June 20 2011 13:25 JMave wrote: is it possible to force as many cannons as possible and expand twice for yourself?
I doubt it, when you are doing this build u want to match the unit count urself, shouldnt rely too much on cannons if i scout like 3 gates i'll usually do 4.
So i doubt u can pull it off by expanding twice.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about responding to this build, not doing it yourself
This is such a hard build I have to think so much when I use it and I can only beat weaker players with it (I can only beat a few D- and I'm D/D-). Against anyone who is my skill level or higher I have extreme difficulties I die to early all-in Zealots, early 2 reaver dragoon pushes, and other things. It seems like my economy does not kick in time for it to be effective. I'm cutting so many probes that I'm on 2 bases but have for a much fewer probes than my opponent.
It's very likely just my bad execution but IMO this build has very little room for error and is easy to lose with. I really like it though, still as it's extra fun if you win with it.
This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote: This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
I rarely encounter this build on the ladder, if you know or suspect your oponent is 12 nexing go 10/10 gates and straight up win, even 10/12 its still a win, 10/15 Gate Goon is also a straight up win.
Some people may argue other wise but if players with the same micro, multitask and macro face each other the 12 nexing guy will be at a serious disadvantage to 2 gate, even 10/12.
If you do a 1gate opening you got 2 options:
if you have REALLY good micro and multitask, rally your gate to his base, individually micro your zealots to kill probes, but to NOT die, you gotta keep his zealots occupied, along with some goons, by the time of your 2nd goon you have the minerals to expand, then go up to 3 or 4 gates.
You can also all in, you easily deny the 5 zealots scouting with the zcorez opening, you will have 2 zealots walling + 1 probe behind the zealots + 2 goons and the 3rd goon almost made.
From here you get proxy a fast robo off 1 gate or 2 and crawl reavers to his natural, and later add more gates with the proxy pylon.
You can go in base or proxied 4 gate goon.
But if you're doing the all in you gotta deny scouting, even if you need to mineral walk 10 probes down your ramp to prevent him coming up.
On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote: This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
Just make 2 Zealots out of your initial Gateway and make a Nexus, then match the opponents 2 Gateways and you will be ahead in tech and probably in economy, unless your opponent has better micro than you. This is because Protoss expansions really don't give a large advantage if they are only up for a short amount of time until the opponent gets an expansion in the PvP matchup, and your initial Zealots at the very least should kill one Probe and delay some mining time from the opponent running their Probes. Its also inefficient for a player to go up to 2 Gates and get Zealots after going for a 13 Nexus, I don't even know why this guide advocates for that.
Your other option would be to get 2 Dragoons and deny scouting. Your opponent won't know if you are going for a 2 Dragoon Expansion (Which will give you a large enough tech lead to where the economy won't matter if the opponent went 2 Gate 5 Zealots), 4 Gate Dragoons, 3 Gate Dragoons, 2 Gate Reaver, etc... Now we are under the assumption you are doing the safe 2 Dragoon Expansion opening that will provide you with an advantage, if unscouted. Make sure you push out with 3 Dragoons at the timing you would push out if you were going for a 4 Gate Goon push. If you properly deny scouting and push out as if your 4 reinforcement Dragoons were trailing your 3 Dragoons as if you were doing a 4 Gate Goon push you will effectively force your opponent to make additional Cannons, and your opponent really won't even have an economic advantage. The scout denial processes are complicated if you don't frequently watch VODs but are rather simple if you're familiar with the playstyle of professional players.
All in all, you shouldn't have too much difficulty defeating this opening. Its not as strong as a standard opening, especially when the player follows up with 2 Gateways and 5 Zealots. The Zealots won't be able to get into your base if you have effective Dragoon micro since if your opponent sacrifises the 5 Zealots to scout for the 2 Gate Expansion timing, there will be no way for the opponent to stop a 4 Gate Goon all in. Therefore, your opponent is flipping a coin and thus I consider this a cheesy build that isn't worth practicing if you really want to improve your play. But if you want to stay in the low C ranks for a couple years, have at it. Practice this build.
On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote: This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
Just make 2 Zealots out of your initial Gateway and make a Nexus, then match the opponents 2 Gateways and you will be ahead in tech and probably in economy, unless your opponent has better micro than you. This is because Protoss expansions really don't give a large advantage if they are only up for a short amount of time until the opponent gets an expansion in the PvP matchup, and your initial Zealots at the very least should kill one Probe and delay some mining time from the opponent running their Probes. Its also inefficient for a player to go up to 2 Gates and get Zealots after going for a 13 Nexus, I don't even know why this guide advocates for that.
Your other option would be to get 2 Dragoons and deny scouting. Your opponent won't know if you are going for a 2 Dragoon Expansion (Which will give you a large enough tech lead to where the economy won't matter if the opponent went 2 Gate 5 Zealots), 4 Gate Dragoons, 3 Gate Dragoons, 2 Gate Reaver, etc... Now we are under the assumption you are doing the safe 2 Dragoon Expansion opening that will provide you with an advantage, if unscouted. Make sure you push out with 3 Dragoons at the timing you would push out if you were going for a 4 Gate Goon push. If you properly deny scouting and push out as if your 4 reinforcement Dragoons were trailing your 3 Dragoons as if you were doing a 4 Gate Goon push you will effectively force your opponent to make additional Cannons, and your opponent really won't even have an economic advantage. The scout denial processes are complicated if you don't frequently watch VODs but are rather simple if you're familiar with the playstyle of professional players.
All in all, you shouldn't have too much difficulty defeating this opening. Its not as strong as a standard opening, especially when the player follows up with 2 Gateways and 5 Zealots. The Zealots won't be able to get into your base if you have effective Dragoon micro since if your opponent sacrifises the 5 Zealots to scout for the 2 Gate Expansion timing, there will be no way for the opponent to stop a 4 Gate Goon all in. Therefore, your opponent is flipping a coin and thus I consider this a cheesy build that isn't worth practicing if you really want to improve your play. But if you want to stay in the low C ranks for a couple years, have at it. Practice this build.
any replays of these techniques or is this pure theorycrafting? Because in my experience your methods of denying scouting of the 5 zealots just dont work.
On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote: This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
Just make 2 Zealots out of your initial Gateway and make a Nexus, then match the opponents 2 Gateways and you will be ahead in tech and probably in economy, unless your opponent has better micro than you. This is because Protoss expansions really don't give a large advantage if they are only up for a short amount of time until the opponent gets an expansion in the PvP matchup, and your initial Zealots at the very least should kill one Probe and delay some mining time from the opponent running their Probes. Its also inefficient for a player to go up to 2 Gates and get Zealots after going for a 13 Nexus, I don't even know why this guide advocates for that.
Your other option would be to get 2 Dragoons and deny scouting. Your opponent won't know if you are going for a 2 Dragoon Expansion (Which will give you a large enough tech lead to where the economy won't matter if the opponent went 2 Gate 5 Zealots), 4 Gate Dragoons, 3 Gate Dragoons, 2 Gate Reaver, etc... Now we are under the assumption you are doing the safe 2 Dragoon Expansion opening that will provide you with an advantage, if unscouted. Make sure you push out with 3 Dragoons at the timing you would push out if you were going for a 4 Gate Goon push. If you properly deny scouting and push out as if your 4 reinforcement Dragoons were trailing your 3 Dragoons as if you were doing a 4 Gate Goon push you will effectively force your opponent to make additional Cannons, and your opponent really won't even have an economic advantage. The scout denial processes are complicated if you don't frequently watch VODs but are rather simple if you're familiar with the playstyle of professional players.
All in all, you shouldn't have too much difficulty defeating this opening. Its not as strong as a standard opening, especially when the player follows up with 2 Gateways and 5 Zealots. The Zealots won't be able to get into your base if you have effective Dragoon micro since if your opponent sacrifises the 5 Zealots to scout for the 2 Gate Expansion timing, there will be no way for the opponent to stop a 4 Gate Goon all in. Therefore, your opponent is flipping a coin and thus I consider this a cheesy build that isn't worth practicing if you really want to improve your play. But if you want to stay in the low C ranks for a couple years, have at it. Practice this build.
any replays of these techniques or is this pure theorycrafting? Because in my experience your methods of denying scouting of the 5 zealots just dont work.
Agreed with this. Do you have replays of what you are talking about? Because literally almost every point you have made is incorrect. For example, matching my expansion will put you behind, as I will have a bigger economy than you. My expansion is sufficiently earlier than yours that if you do not inflict early or mid game damage (either through an all-in or some harass) the economic advantage will simply crush you. I can either continue the Zealot pressure or play a defensive style with lots of probes, which will both put me in a good position. Your timing doesn't work out because your initial Zealots won't do anything as I will have more than you, and I can use them to make you cut probes. Inefficient to go up to two gates? Absolutely not. It allows you to pressure, usually scout, and defend versus any type of early game aggression. If you are advocating for a Two Dragoon opening, I literally don't know what to tell you. This build will scout what you are doing. Watch the replays and study the timing.
Low C rank? I frequently won with this at the blue ranks using this build. What rank are you to talk like that?
On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote: This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
Just make 2 Zealots out of your initial Gateway and make a Nexus, then match the opponents 2 Gateways and you will be ahead in tech and probably in economy, unless your opponent has better micro than you. This is because Protoss expansions really don't give a large advantage if they are only up for a short amount of time until the opponent gets an expansion in the PvP matchup, and your initial Zealots at the very least should kill one Probe and delay some mining time from the opponent running their Probes. Its also inefficient for a player to go up to 2 Gates and get Zealots after going for a 13 Nexus, I don't even know why this guide advocates for that.
Your other option would be to get 2 Dragoons and deny scouting. Your opponent won't know if you are going for a 2 Dragoon Expansion (Which will give you a large enough tech lead to where the economy won't matter if the opponent went 2 Gate 5 Zealots), 4 Gate Dragoons, 3 Gate Dragoons, 2 Gate Reaver, etc... Now we are under the assumption you are doing the safe 2 Dragoon Expansion opening that will provide you with an advantage, if unscouted. Make sure you push out with 3 Dragoons at the timing you would push out if you were going for a 4 Gate Goon push. If you properly deny scouting and push out as if your 4 reinforcement Dragoons were trailing your 3 Dragoons as if you were doing a 4 Gate Goon push you will effectively force your opponent to make additional Cannons, and your opponent really won't even have an economic advantage. The scout denial processes are complicated if you don't frequently watch VODs but are rather simple if you're familiar with the playstyle of professional players.
All in all, you shouldn't have too much difficulty defeating this opening. Its not as strong as a standard opening, especially when the player follows up with 2 Gateways and 5 Zealots. The Zealots won't be able to get into your base if you have effective Dragoon micro since if your opponent sacrifises the 5 Zealots to scout for the 2 Gate Expansion timing, there will be no way for the opponent to stop a 4 Gate Goon all in. Therefore, your opponent is flipping a coin and thus I consider this a cheesy build that isn't worth practicing if you really want to improve your play. But if you want to stay in the low C ranks for a couple years, have at it. Practice this build.
any replays of these techniques or is this pure theorycrafting? Because in my experience your methods of denying scouting of the 5 zealots just dont work.
Agreed with this. Do you have replays of what you are talking about? Because literally almost every point you have made is incorrect. For example, matching my expansion will put you behind, as I will have a bigger economy than you. My expansion is sufficiently earlier than yours that if you do not inflict early or mid game damage (either through an all-in or some harass) the economic advantage will simply crush you. I can either continue the Zealot pressure or play a defensive style with lots of probes, which will both put me in a good position. Your timing doesn't work out because your initial Zealots won't do anything as I will have more than you, and I can use them to make you cut probes. Inefficient to go up to two gates? Absolutely not. It allows you to pressure, usually scout, and defend versus any type of early game aggression. If you are advocating for a Two Dragoon opening, I literally don't know what to tell you. This build will scout what you are doing. Watch the replays and study the timing.
Low C rank? I frequently won with this at the blue ranks using this build. What rank are you to talk like that?
I wasn't responding to you when discussing rank, I was responding to someone else. You didn't develop a B rank PvP from the low C ranks by practicing that build. As soon as a player sees the 5 Zealots coming towards their base they meet the Zealots with their initial Dragoons. If the P opened 2 Zealots Goon then they can use the first expansion build I discussed. This build was used by Stork in WCG. Stork has never used a fast Nexus build and its impossible for you to argue he doesn't know about it. This is because the opening is inferior to standard builds. In an interview Horang2 said such openings are not used because getting your Nexus slightly earlier than your opponent doesn't make that big of a difference in the PvP matchup. Especially not for how far behind your tech becomes. Moreover, professional players such as Perfectman and Pure have experimented with Nexus before units builds. Perfectman went Nexus then Gateway and Pure went Gateway -> Nexus -> Zealot. Neither player followed up with 2 Gateways, they both went 1 Gateway into tech. Therefore, my stance regarding tech is further strengthened by analysis of the play of the best players in the world (Professionals). And the rarity of these builds being used further strengthens my argument pertaining to standard builds being stronger openings.
Now, back to a player sending out their 5 Zealots against the opponent's initial 2 Dragoons. The Dragoons will meet the Zealots somewhere in the middle of the map and can use hold position micro management against the Zealots. If the Zealots go as far to scout for a Nexus response of 2 Dragoons from the Protoss player its ridiculous to argue the Zealots could travel all that way then retreat to the main base without dying. If the Zealots do suicide and the Protoss is opening with a 4 Gate Dragoon build, it will be impossible to hold the attack. I have beaten the opening you are describing with 2 Goon Expansions, 4 Gate Goon (Proxied) and the 2 Zealot Nexus opening. I don't save replays of insignificant wins over cheesy strategies, therefore I don't have any replays to share. Its just like if a player goes for 2 Gate Zealots vs a Protoss who goes 1 base tech. If the opponent makes more than 5 Zealots and doesn't severely injure the opponent, either the 2 Gate Zealot user will be far behind in tech or will die to a 4 Gate Goon attack if they attempt to tech or get a Nexus to make up for the disadvantage through economy. Either way the player who went 2 Gate Zealots won't be able to get a third expansion against a competent player. This is why Pure used an 8 Dragoon timing attack window in the game he went fast Nexus. Both Pure and his opponent knew if the player who didn't go fast Nexus got too much tech out in a short period of time there would be no way Pure could take a third expansion. Therefore, Pure came up with an attack timing that would allow him to defeat such a strategy. An attack timing that is viable against such tech heavy play is not viable when you make a Nexus then 2 Gateways and finally Zealots prior to teching. If you watch professional PvP games in enough depth you will begin to see the correlation between tech and expansion timings. There is also a correlation between expansion timings and leads in the game based on army size. Typically due to winning a crucial battle. However, in a close game, the strongest indicator of third expansion timing is tech since you have to be able to hold against an opponent's attack if they go 2 base all-in.
PvP really isn't all about economy. In fact, tech and army composition are a lot more important than economy in PvP. If you go for that opening you are gaining a slight economic advantage, but you're doing so at the expense of tech and army composition advantages. Therefore, I don't see how this opening can be as efficient as standard openings. Strategy selection by professional players basically confirms my hypothesis, and my analysis of PvP mechanics adds to that confirmation.
Since this is your main build, therefore evidently you have replays of using it. I would challenge you to produce a replay against an opponent who uses their initial Dragoons (Off a 1 or 0 Zealot opening) to meet your Zealots as you walk to your opponents base and have the Zealots arrive safely back at your base. I would also challenge you to supply a replay of you defeating a 4 Gate Dragoon build when losing all of your 5 initial Zealots.
Its odd that you request me to supply replays since I hardly even see this opening, and therefore probably don't have replays against it.
Actually, I completely disagree with your point that practicing this build won't help you become a high-level player. It is not a gimmicky build, and will develop your ability to read your opponent, adapt optimally, as well as your mechanics. It's not even remotely anything like Dark Templar. Please stop making these comparisons and judgements without sufficient understanding of the build, the game itself or both.
It's perfectly fine to engage their initial Dragoons. Like I said, the purpose of the Zealots is to buy yourself time while getting Dragoons yourself (getting the needed cannons), putting pressure on him (three Zealots chase Dragoons while the rest go to mineral line), and scouting your opponent. You act as if I do not understand how my opponents would react to this. I have played tons of games with this build, and for you to come and theorycraft your way through the build seems absurd to me.
I am not going to argue against your point about professionals because a) I have not followed the professional scene in a long time, b) this build is designed to help players around my level or below. How the professionals talk or feel about this build is irrelevant to me. Your point about the "rarity" of this build is ridiculous at best. First of all, I do not care whether professionals use this build or not. That is not what the build is aimed for. The game that professionals play is nearly a different game from the one we play. Secondly, your personal experience of not running into this build has no relevance to this discussion. Third, the previous two points have nothing to do with the strength of this build. If done right, this build can be just as strong if not stronger than a standard build, especially with the surprise factor. Your "argument" is irrelevant to my point because I never argued the strength of this build relative to standard builds. Do not put words in my mouth, and I am actually upset that you are making me waste my time in having to respond to your completely irrelevant arguments.
I never said Zealots should make it back to my main base. The purpose, as I have stated, is to pressure, inflict damage if possible, buy time, and scout. Please do not label this build as a cheesy strategy, that's disrespectful. It is not a cheesy build by any means because it based on adapting to your opponent and usually winning with an economical advantage. It takes skill to play this build correctly.
PvP really isn't all about economy. In fact, tech and army composition are a lot more important than economy in PvP. If you go for that opening you are gaining a slight economic advantage, but you're doing so at the expense of tech and army composition advantages. Therefore, I don't see how this opening can be as efficient as standard openings. Strategy selection by professional players basically confirms my hypothesis, and my analysis of PvP mechanics adds to that confirmation.
This paragraph summarizes the fallacies of your argument pretty well. I never said PvP is all about economy. But rather, this build is an economic-oriented build. PvP is reading your opponent and using the advantage (whether it be economic or tech) to build-up that lead. As such, this build is designed to compound the economic advantage gained from the early lead and defending it successfully. You cannot bold-faced claim that an economic advantage is not as important as tech or "army composition." I do not know how you can possibly make this claim. (By army composition, do you mean Reavers? Archons? If he goes Archons he's going to get run over, and Reavers are defendable.) The tech and army composition are completely fine to give-up in order to gain the economic lead. DT and Reaver are both defendable if played correctly. PvP is often a fine-balance between emphasizing an economic advantage or the tech lead. You are making a false assumption that economic advantage cannot defeat tech lead. Having a cannon defeats DT. Mass goons can beat Reavers. I am going to ignore the part about professionals or "analysis of PvP mechanics" because both are useless and irrelevant to this build.
Look, we can theorycraft all day but I am going to stop here. It's a waste of time. I could care less if you believe in the build and use it to improve your game. I am simply trying to help those who are interested, and as replies in this thread have suggested, people have found the build strong and enjoyable to play with. I simply do not care about anything other than that.
You prove my point with your statement about the replays. Stop theorycrafting and act as if you have a complete understanding of how this build works. You said yourself you have not played much against it, let alone play using the build. Stop talking about professionals because I don't give a damn. You show no respect of what this build is capable in doing, and therefore, I am not going to continue this argument. At any point if you want to stop talking about what professionals think and do, feel free to message and we can play some games. How the professionals feel is irrelevant because I wrote this guide to help regular players, not them. (Not that you actually know how they feel since the build is never used in the professional scene. Do not make stupid assumptions that professionals not using the build somehow discredits the build's strength at the non-professional levels. That seems to be an amateur logic jump for a guy trying to sound like he knows what he's talking about.)
ld also challenge you to supply a replay of you defeating a 4 Gate Dragoon build when losing all of your 5 initial Zealots.
I think this destroys all ethos you had. Watch sayle's stream sometime. He goes PvP, 12nex, and always loses his initial 5 zealots. Why? They're for pressure. Sayle's been 3gated and 4gated umpteenth times on stream. He holds with cannons and quick DTs. There are probe cuts, but it's NOT impossible at all to hold a 4gate goon build.
On October 27 2011 13:38 OneOther wrote: Please do not label this build as a cheesy strategy, that's disrespectful. It is not a cheesy build by any means because it based on adapting to your opponent and usually winning with an economical advantage. It takes skill to play this build correctly.
Common.. lets be real here, its a cheesy build.
Whenever i face this build in ladder as soon as i see the nexus i just sigh and say to my self: "well there goes a long macro game, now i got to all in this kid.", because it puts me in such an economic disadvantage that i have to end the game right there, harass is cool but its not the answer against this build, you cant rely on harass to recover from the disadvantage.
I think this destroys all ethos you had. Watch sayle's stream sometime. He goes PvP, 12nex, and always loses his initial 5 zealots. Why? They're for pressure. Sayle's been 3gated and 4gated umpteenth times on stream. He holds with cannons and quick DTs. There are probe cuts, but it's NOT impossible at all to hold a 4gate goon build.
Sayle plays against koreans that gas steal against this build, they are THAT confused, against a zcorez opening on a small ramped map like FS you just can not scout with the zealots, you cant get into the base, and now what are you gonna do? Defending against everything is not an option.
Whenever i face this build in ladder as soon as i see the nexus i just sigh and say to my self: "well there goes a long macro game, now i got to all in this kid.", because it puts me in such an economic disadvantage that i have to end the game right there, harass is cool but its not the answer against this build, you cant rely on harass to recover from the disadvantage.
Harassing while expanding yourself (while denying scouting and keeping him guessing) is probably the best way to play against this build (unless you straight kill him with blind proxy gates or something). See, that's the reason why I do not consider this build "cheesy." It's a defensive and adaptive build geared around an economic advantage. It may force the opponet to all-in, but you yourself are on the reactive side. Now I do not want to get into a tacky debate about the definition of "cheese." I personally do not view defending, reacting and adapting as cheesing.
Here's a replay pack containing my last 80 12nex PvPs + 4 replays of me using 12nex against top level players (Mazur, Sziky, Jumper x2) with mixed results. The replays are labelled by my opponent's build and whether I won or lost. I was somewhat flexible with the labelling (for example, 2gate robo could mean gate/robo/gate or gate/gate/robo or even a proxied robo). 6 of the replays are labelled 'Misc' because I couldn't put them in a regular build category (they are generally weird proxies), and there is one 'Bonus' replay for some lulz. Also, the replay labelled '2gate DT W 06' is highly recommended if you want to see a game where I lose every single engagement but still win the game.
Some fun facts: - My overall win/loss is 58-26, 69% - I am 100% (5-0) against 4gate goon (after suiciding all my zealots, hi tryummm) - Despite having bad zealot micro, I'm exactly 50% (5-5) vs 10/12 gate
Note that the number of 9/9 gates is disproportionately high due to a couple of 5-6 game series vs the same player (so they 9/9'd me several times after seeing my 12nex).
Enjoy!
Download: [url blocked]
Edit: Also, I didn't count them up exactly but there were gas steals in less than 10% of the games. Nice try though Mottz!
On October 28 2011 06:41 renzy wrote: Sayle, u have a win rate of over 60% against jumper, Mazur and Sziky???? NVM, read wrong. I thought you had a 60% winrate against those guys. lol
I went 1-0 vs Mazur, 2-0 vs Jumper, and 0-1 vs Sziky. That's 3-1 for me, so you could say that still ;p
Edit: Just to be clear, those players are still vastly superior to me, and Jumper was doing a silly build in our second game. However, the first game vs him and my game against Mazur are both pretty good and showcase two different responses to my build.
On October 28 2011 06:41 renzy wrote: Sayle, u have a win rate of over 60% against jumper, Mazur and Sziky???? NVM, read wrong. I thought you had a 60% winrate against those guys. lol
I went 1-0 vs Mazur, 2-0 vs Jumper, and 0-1 vs Sziky. That's 3-1 for me, so you could say that still ;p
Edit: Just to be clear, those players are still vastly superior to me, and Jumper was doing a silly build in our second game. However, the first game vs him and my game against Mazur are both pretty good and showcase two different responses to my build.
Oh shit I remember the Mazur and the games vs that one Korean. Wasn't that where the Mulan adaptation song came from?
I was rolled up giggling as everybody was all like "ok he gon 9/9" and then you just gged out immediately...
Thanks for the replays Sayle. I'm going to watch every one of them and come up with a build that will crush Kiante.
I'm using a 2 zealot 3 goon expansion now sort of like in PvT. Pull probes off gas as you get range and put them back on as you get nexus. It gets you into mid game easily with reaver tech but you have to be careful with your zealots initially and do as much mining delay or probe kills as possible. Just don't lose your reaver and zealots and you're fine.
On October 28 2011 05:42 Sayle wrote: Here's a replay pack containing my last 80 12nex PvPs + 4 replays of me using 12nex against top level players (Mazur, Sziky, Jumper x2) with mixed results. The replays are labelled by my opponent's build and whether I won or lost. I was somewhat flexible with the labelling (for example, 2gate robo could mean gate/robo/gate or gate/gate/robo or even a proxied robo). 6 of the replays are labelled 'Misc' because I couldn't put them in a regular build category (they are generally weird proxies), and there is one 'Bonus' replay for some lulz. Also, the replay labelled '2gate DT W 06' is highly recommended if you want to see a game where I lose every single engagement but still win the game.
Some fun facts: - My overall win/loss is 58-26, 69% - I am 100% (5-0) against 4gate goon (after suiciding all my zealots, hi tryummm) - Despite having bad zealot micro, I'm exactly 50% (5-5) vs 10/12 gate
Note that the number of 9/9 gates is disproportionately high due to a couple of 5-6 game series vs the same player (so they 9/9'd me several times after seeing my 12nex).
Enjoy!
Download: [url blocked]
Edit: Also, I didn't count them up exactly but there were gas steals in less than 10% of the games. Nice try though Mottz!
I think Tryumm and OneOther should play some showmatches.
I mean, taking players (even B-/B) by surprise with the 12 nex is one thing, but 2 high level B players who know about the 12 nex duking it out in something like a BO5 (without gay ass 9/9 proxy) would be something to look forward too.
There are reasons why KidCanada hates this build and i'm sure they're legit.
What I'd like to see as counters: - well played 2 gate robo which busts the front (not like the rep in the op, that was kinda bad) - well microed 10/12 gate with pulling 2 - 5 probes - decently microed 10/15 goon - some sort of fast expansion (no zeal nex, 2 zeal 3 goon nex, or something like that) that plays from behind
I have downloaded your replay pack and will watch them in the near future (thanks a lot for uploading it), I wanted to ask you if there are any notable variations you are doing with the build these days. Someone mentioned your DT opener with cannons to defend 4Gate, which actually sounds like a really good idea. Is there anything else you have spiced up the build with?
On October 29 2011 00:50 OneOther wrote: Hey Sayle,
I have downloaded your replay pack and will watch them in the near future (thanks a lot for uploading it), I wanted to ask you if there are any notable variations you are doing with the build these days. Someone mentioned your DT opener with cannons to defend 4Gate, which actually sounds like a really good idea. Is there anything else you have spiced up the build with?
I basically follow your build up until the 5zeal push and then I have 2 possible branches that I take. I don't spend any gas until my zealots scout what he is doing. Usually you will be able to see his build by the time you have ~200 gas banked so your tech won't be super delayed even if you wait for the zealots to get to him. Once I see (or guess) his build, I have the following options:
1) If I scout 3 or 4 gates, I immediately build a citadel and don't make any units from my gateways. Instead I spend all minerals on cannons and all the gas (from 1 geyser) to get the citadel and archives. If it's 3gate, you don't need to cut probes. If it's 4gate, you need to cut probes for more cannons. Against a 4gate, I will go up to as many as 7-8 cannons at my natural to stop the bust. The important thing is to get the templar tech as fast as possible. In 95% of games vs 4gate, the first 2 DTs will win you the game instantly because his detection is not in time, but you must send these DTs straight to his base and not attack the goons at your front. I usually try to hide a probe on the map so I can see if he commits to the 4gate all-in or tries to expand/tech behind it. If he expands or techs, I can switch to HT production after the first 2 DTs. If he commits to an all-in, I make 2 more DTs to defend myself from any kind of crazy base trade situation. My first game vs Jumper is a decent example of holding off a hardcore all-in with this strategy. Against a 3gate with robo followup, you won't win the game straight away with DTs, but you can easily switch to HTs as before and be in a good position. He can't move out until he has 2 obs (1 for attack, 1 for defence) and that severely delays his reaver production as well (if he's doing that).
2) If I scout any kind of faster robo build or I can't scout him at all for some reason, I spend the gas on goon range and follow up with gateways as you suggested. It can be very tight because your range will be slightly delayed due to waiting to scout him, but usually I get it in time to stop any reaver push.
Another small variation I sometimes use is that I use the 10th probe to scout the middle of the map for proxy gates then send it back to make the nexus. If you do this on FS, the probe will get back to your natural right as you hit 12 supply with about 340 minerals, so your nexus is slightly delayed but if you see a proxy you can go 12/12gate instead. I usually don't do this since the chance of proxies is low and I'm not even sure if 12/12gate will survive vs 9/9, but it's something I've experimented with.
Another interesting idea someone on my stream said (sorry I don't remember who you are) is that if you're going to suicide your initial 5 zealots, you don't actually need to make an extra pylon at 34 supply. Usually, I stop probe prodution at 30/34 and do gas/core/forge/pylon before resuming probe production. It's possible that not making the pylon and instead just making probes while the zealots die and free up supply would smooth out the build, but I have not tested this yet and it feels like a bit of a gamble.
On October 28 2011 16:36 Holy Check wrote: I think Tryumm and OneOther should play some showmatches.
I mean, taking players (even B-/B) by surprise with the 12 nex is one thing, but 2 high level B players who know about the 12 nex duking it out in something like a BO5 (without gay ass 9/9 proxy) would be something to look forward too.
There are reasons why KidCanada hates this build and i'm sure they're legit.
What I'd like to see as counters: - well played 2 gate robo which busts the front (not like the rep in the op, that was kinda bad) - well microed 10/12 gate with pulling 2 - 5 probes - decently microed 10/15 goon - some sort of fast expansion (no zeal nex, 2 zeal 3 goon nex, or something like that) that plays from behind
and @ variations, I would look @ iccup for sneazel replays in tournaments or defiler.ru. He does 12nexus all the time.
First of all you can't tell someone you are doing a 12 nexus because there are many counters you can blindly do after knowing the opponents build. Secondly, 10-15 goon is not very common so the chance of someone randomly doing a 12nexus vs a 2nd player doing a random 10-15 is very low.
The strongest counter to 12nexus is to deny scouting and go for a 3gate goon with proxy robo outside their base into reaver/ob, then supporting with shield battery. Off 2 bases with cutting probes to add cannons, the 12nexer will not have sufficient resources to defend this push.
You must also as the 3gate proxy robo player scout for hidden scouting/pylon because the 12 nex player can proxy a gate and if they did a dt rush, you can lose your main base.
Have you got any reps of that KC? it sounds really brutal. my default response to 3 gate is cannons + templar tech, so the reaver + robo to come and bust down after could work really well. if scouted tho, the 12 nexing player knows not to overmake cannons and get goons up and might be able to hold, not sure tho
On October 29 2011 17:58 Kiante wrote: Have you got any reps of that KC? it sounds really brutal. my default response to 3 gate is cannons + templar tech, so the reaver + robo to come and bust down after could work really well. if scouted tho, the 12 nexing player knows not to overmake cannons and get goons up and might be able to hold, not sure tho
Yeah he can't afford not to cut cannons because you have 3 gate of goon with range coming @ his nat. You basically cut probes when you build the robo, so your saturation is still very good. I might have a replay but I would need to find it because I don't play vs many 12nexers on fish ladder. The only thing that the 12nexer can do IF he scouts the robo is to make a robo @ his nat and go reaver + cannon, I don't think he can outproduce the goons, and dt is insta death (ob comes before).
As I previously mentioned though, you deny his scouting and can hold the 5 zlot push no problem (he should definitely not break ramp regardless) then you have to make sure there is no proxy gate if they decided to proxy gate for dts from the 12nex player.
If you're making the robo after 3 gates even with cutting probes its coming fairly late. Surely theres a reasonable chance of a retardedly fast DT coming out and sneaking past the robo before an obs comes out and wrecking your probe line?
Hey man, I just want to say thanks for sharing this build. This month I'm focusing on macro builds and I chose this build for PvP. I just played it for the first time five minutes ago and the game was hilarious. Even though my timings were complete shit I had so many units that I basically just 1a2a3a'd him mid-game with a storm here and there. I can't wait to see what I can do when I'm actually competent with the build.
On October 30 2011 06:00 Kiante wrote: If you're making the robo after 3 gates even with cutting probes its coming fairly late. Surely theres a reasonable chance of a retardedly fast DT coming out and sneaking past the robo before an obs comes out and wrecking your probe line?
I have a lot of doubts you can get DTs out before the Obs if you went 12nex->5Zealot w/o dying to the 3gate Dragoon.
Ever since I found this build, I’ve been using 90% of the time. So far I found few major concerns on this build. I played on Fighting Spirit most of the time. First, if for some reason opponent goes for two gate hard core zealots, it very difficult to fend off. By the time I have my first zealot out, opponent has one zealot and one probe attacking my probes at natural. After I get to hit his zealot, his second zealot reaches my base, which makes mining at natural impossible. Even I immediate lay down 3rd gate, it is too late and I can’t match his zealot count. Also things get worse when the initial scouting probe manner pylon on my base.
Second concern is when the opponent skips zealot and goes for dragoons + reaver. This is manageable if scouted, but it is very hard, as initial 5 zealots can’t kill many dragoons. His initial dragoons are easy to fend off. My 5 zealots buy enough time for me to lay down cannons at my natural choke and get two goons (but without range). However, after I get around 6~7 goons, the opponent has one reaver + goon push, which is very hard to defend. I found no way to overcome this yet unless I am lucky. Cannons are useless and opponent just volleys scrabs from far until all the cannons are out and/or he has more goon count. One time I was able to win, but it was opponent’s mistake. He was impatient and ran in even though cannons were still up. At this point, I ignore the reaver and try to micro my goons so that they are separated. Since I have more gates and I get goons faster, I was able to win the battle. I found that the key is to fight goons before reaver because, with proper micro, reavers are impossible to kill with just 6~7 goons. Once all of his goons are dead, he has no choice but to retreat or I can kill reaver easily. But this happened only once for me and I think if he waited and just volleyed scrabs from long range to kill of cannons, he would’ve easily won.
All other methods are easy to fend off. DT is so easy. I just have to place enough cannons. Sometimes I get careless and only put one cannon at my natural. I lost due to goon sniping cannon, but that was only once. Following my expansion is also instant win. Also late scouting is instant win unless the opponent went for two gate hardcore zealots.
On December 14 2011 07:08 mtwow789 wrote: Ever since I found this build, I’ve been using 90% of the time. So far I found few major concerns on this build. I played on Fighting Spirit most of the time. First, if for some reason opponent goes for two gate hard core zealots, it very difficult to fend off. By the time I have my first zealot out, opponent has one zealot and one probe attacking my probes at natural. After I get to hit his zealot, his second zealot reaches my base, which makes mining at natural impossible. Even I immediate lay down 3rd gate, it is too late and I can’t match his zealot count. Also things get worse when the initial scouting probe manner pylon on my base.
First of all, 10/12 gate on a 4 player ramped map is generally not as good as a 1gate tech build in PvP, so you shouldn't encounter this too often. If you do though, it requires good zealot/probe micro on your part to hold off. His first zealot will get to your base just before or exactly when your first zealot pops out. I don't understand why you can't match his zealot count though. You both have 2 gateways so if you do constant zealot pump with shorter reinforcement distance, you should match him zealot for zealot. Just pull 2 probes to help your zealots fight and you should win a direct engagement. You can even put a shield battery at the natural (this is why you need the 2nd pylon there and not in your main) if you're uncomfortable with just zealots/probes. I went 5-5 against 10/12 gate in my replay pack: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137582¤tpage=11#208
On December 14 2011 07:08 mtwow789 wrote: Second concern is when the opponent skips zealot and goes for dragoons + reaver. This is manageable if scouted, but it is very hard, as initial 5 zealots can’t kill many dragoons. His initial dragoons are easy to fend off. My 5 zealots buy enough time for me to lay down cannons at my natural choke and get two goons (but without range). However, after I get around 6~7 goons, the opponent has one reaver + goon push, which is very hard to defend. I found no way to overcome this yet unless I am lucky. Cannons are useless and opponent just volleys scrabs from far until all the cannons are out and/or he has more goon count. One time I was able to win, but it was opponent’s mistake. He was impatient and ran in even though cannons were still up. At this point, I ignore the reaver and try to micro my goons so that they are separated. Since I have more gates and I get goons faster, I was able to win the battle. I found that the key is to fight goons before reaver because, with proper micro, reavers are impossible to kill with just 6~7 goons. Once all of his goons are dead, he has no choice but to retreat or I can kill reaver easily. But this happened only once for me and I think if he waited and just volleyed scrabs from long range to kill of cannons, he would’ve easily won.
This situation is already explained in the OP. If he skips zealots, your 5 zealot attack is pretty much guaranteed to get into his main so you can see what he's doing. If you see the fast robo, get goon range and 5 gateways as quickly as possible and don't take your natural gas. Just mass goons (+ some zealots when you run out of gas) to defend it. You may need to cut probes. You're absolutely right though, in that the ideal timing is to engage his dragoons before the reaver gets there. In my experience, if you can trade dragoons one-for-one with him before the reaver gets there, you definitely should. One little subtlety that can help you a lot is knowing how many cannons you need. If he goes for more early dragoons and a slower reaver, you need to make more cannons to defend yourself but that's fine because the reaver is late. If he rushes for the reaver, you can often get away with just 1-2 cannons and get your gateways up much faster. Again, there are a lot of replays in my reppack against robo builds. I think I'm something like 90+% against 2 or 3 gate robo.
On December 14 2011 07:08 mtwow789 wrote: All other methods are easy to fend off. DT is so easy. I just have to place enough cannons. Sometimes I get careless and only put one cannon at my natural. I lost due to goon sniping cannon, but that was only once. Following my expansion is also instant win. Also late scouting is instant win unless the opponent went for two gate hardcore zealots.
Agreed, DT is not the best response to 12nex. Do be careful about DT drop though. If you think he's doing a DT drop, you should put 2-3 cannons in your main and get a robo at your natural near your cannon line. Getting the extra cannons if fine because the DT drop is so expensive. I recommend putting the robo near the natural cannons so he can't just drop on it and kill it (if it's in your main).
dts can often give you that "oh fuck" game, where you skip a cannon in your main and die to a dt drop. or u dont see the shuttle and have 1 cannon and it dies.or you make your robo out of range of the cannon and it dies. or you make 2 cannons at your front and he runs past because you suck at clicking on dt's
fucking heartbreaking when it happens, because you know you could've stopped it QQQQQQ
Actually, I was trying to say that when opponent does goon+reaver+shuttle attack, I ignore reaver and focus on killing off his goons while my goons are all separated so they don't receive splash damage from the reaver. I think this has better chance against good opponents, as good reaver micro makes it impossible to kill reaver. I have to check Sayle’s replay about how to fend off two gate. I find it very hard to micro probe and zealot together.
Sometimes probe doesn’t attack when I attack ground, I have to click zealot. Also, I tend to engage opponents first zealot with my zealot and probe, but most of the time opponent just runs around attacking my probes at natural and wait for reinforcement. There is a point where his second zealot reaches my natural before I get my second. Now I have to run around. Opponent then has various ways to mess me up. He can start attacking my pylon at natural and laying down his pylon for battery. Or much worse, he comes up to my main and start attacking my probe while other zealot+probe is following my zealot. I found it very difficult to control both probes at minerals and zealot. That is why my first zealot dies quickly. From then on every time I engage, I always lack 1~2 zealots against his. I will try to post my replay of this case when I get home.
I've been doing this on Fish Server on Jade and on Iccup on FS and Python and I'm having problems with 2 things
I played one guy on both Fighting Spirit and Python and both times he went 9/11 gates and he just had too many zealots. He managed to kill my nexus and then contain me on the bottom of the ramp. Also, I played a couple more games on python and lost again to a 10/12 gate /w like 5 probes attacking
Secondly I'm having issues with someone who cuts probes and does 2 gate rangge attack with early 2nd gate. I lost to this cause he met my 5 zealots in the middle of th map and just kept rallying goons and muffling. When he attacked my nat I had 3 cannons bu could hardly afford to make more cannons or units constanly. I'm finding this 12 nexus to be weak on python cause of the short rush distances and wide natural
On February 02 2012 07:38 Yaqoob wrote: I've been doing this on Fish Server on Jade and on Iccup on FS and Python and I'm having problems with 2 things
I played one guy on both Fighting Spirit and Python and both times he went 9/11 gates and he just had too many zealots. He managed to kill my nexus and then contain me on the bottom of the ramp. Also, I played a couple more games on python and lost again to a 10/12 gate /w like 5 probes attacking
Secondly I'm having issues with someone who cuts probes and does 2 gate rangge attack with early 2nd gate. I lost to this cause he met my 5 zealots in the middle of th map and just kept rallying goons and muffling. When he attacked my nat I had 3 cannons bu could hardly afford to make more cannons or units constanly. I'm finding this 12 nexus to be weak on python cause of the short rush distances and wide natural
1) It's difficult to hold off a 2gate. However, if they are 2gating on a 4 player ramped map in PvP, they are probably terrible at starcraft and/or Korean and there's not much you can do about it besides micro better. Building a shield battery at your natural also helps.
2) If someone does a fast 2 gate goon and cuts probes, you should cut probes as well and just mass cannon and goons. If you look at my replays, I cut goons in a LOT of situations because I know that as long as I don't die immediately, I will have a better eco anyway because I can make probes from 2 nexuses. One cute trick you can do is sneak a probe around and block their ramp so their goons get stuck and they won't see it for a while because they're busy microing at your front.
3) I don't really know much about Python because I don't play it. But yeah, short distances and super wide naturals are pretty bad for generally bad for 12nex. On the other hand, a wide natural will make it easier to break a fast reaver/goon push on your front so there are some small benefits.
On February 02 2012 07:38 Yaqoob wrote: I've been doing this on Fish Server on Jade and on Iccup on FS and Python and I'm having problems with 2 things
I played one guy on both Fighting Spirit and Python and both times he went 9/11 gates and he just had too many zealots. He managed to kill my nexus and then contain me on the bottom of the ramp. Also, I played a couple more games on python and lost again to a 10/12 gate /w like 5 probes attacking
Secondly I'm having issues with someone who cuts probes and does 2 gate rangge attack with early 2nd gate. I lost to this cause he met my 5 zealots in the middle of th map and just kept rallying goons and muffling. When he attacked my nat I had 3 cannons bu could hardly afford to make more cannons or units constanly. I'm finding this 12 nexus to be weak on python cause of the short rush distances and wide natural
I remember a bnet attack where bisu said "progamers agree that 2 gate zealots is good in python". I think that was what he said, cause i don't blieve he said "progamers agreem that 2 gate zealots is the best build on python". w/e 2 gate zealots in python is common depending on level, and it would difficult to stop due that enormous choke. I suggest that you play other maps and try this awesome build.
On February 04 2012 20:30 Soulforged wrote: There's a really good way to deal with this build: a proxy robo w\ probe cut...right in front of their nat, after forcing cannons with goons.
I said this too but you gotta check for proxies because they can make gateway and go dt rush.
On February 02 2012 07:38 Yaqoob wrote: I've been doing this on Fish Server on Jade and on Iccup on FS and Python and I'm having problems with 2 things
I played one guy on both Fighting Spirit and Python and both times he went 9/11 gates and he just had too many zealots. He managed to kill my nexus and then contain me on the bottom of the ramp. Also, I played a couple more games on python and lost again to a 10/12 gate /w like 5 probes attacking
Secondly I'm having issues with someone who cuts probes and does 2 gate rangge attack with early 2nd gate. I lost to this cause he met my 5 zealots in the middle of th map and just kept rallying goons and muffling. When he attacked my nat I had 3 cannons bu could hardly afford to make more cannons or units constanly. I'm finding this 12 nexus to be weak on python cause of the short rush distances and wide natural
1) It's difficult to hold off a 2gate. However, if they are 2gating on a 4 player ramped map in PvP, they are probably terrible at starcraft and/or Korean and there's not much you can do about it besides micro better. Building a shield battery at your natural also helps.
2) If someone does a fast 2 gate goon and cuts probes, you should cut probes as well and just mass cannon and goons. If you look at my replays, I cut goons in a LOT of situations because I know that as long as I don't die immediately, I will have a better eco anyway because I can make probes from 2 nexuses. One cute trick you can do is sneak a probe around and block their ramp so their goons get stuck and they won't see it for a while because they're busy microing at your front.
3) I don't really know much about Python because I don't play it. But yeah, short distances and super wide naturals are pretty bad for generally bad for 12nex. On the other hand, a wide natural will make it easier to break a fast reaver/goon push on your front so there are some small benefits.
As I use this strategy solely for so many times for my PvP, I found it too luck dependant. I basically lose if I was scouted early. This strat was good until D+, but now that I am playing against C- tosses (opponents with similar or better APM than me), it is impossible to win...
First, some toss goes pylon scout, and if I get scouted in first try, then opponent can go two gates. As you see, if I was scouted in first try, that means that he is close to me, so it is difficult to overcome his zealot count.
Second, if scouted normally, then opponents can go 4gate goon. It is impossible to match his goon count and my initial 5 zealots die in vain if the opponent has apm 120+. I have to add cannons and constantly pump goons. The biggest disadvantage is that my range upgrade finishes way later than the opponent. The opponent can kill off my goons due to range. The range allows him to nick off hp from my goons.Because he has higher goon count before I reap benefit from FE, he can severely damage my econ with his 7~8goon vs my 4ish goons(w/o range) with cannons.
On February 07 2012 14:15 mtwow789 wrote: First, some toss goes pylon scout, and if I get scouted in first try, then opponent can go two gates. As you see, if I was scouted in first try, that means that he is close to me, so it is difficult to overcome his zealot count.
Pylon scouting is sub-optimal in PvP. When was the last time you saw a progamer pylon scout? At lower levels players do it because they are scared of cheese, but it's still pretty uncommon (at least in my experience). Then you also need to get scouted first, which has 1/3 chance of happening on a 4 player map. Basically, getting scouted first by a pylon scout is a rare/unlucky situation (similar to getting proxy 9/9 gated) that does auto-win against a 12nex but is rare enough that I'm not too concerned about it. If you do get 9 pylon scouted, you should immediately throw down 2 gateways (12/12 gate) instead of the nexus and try to play from there. You're behind, but it's playable.
People have to keep in mind that this is not a catch-all build that works against everything. No build is 100% safe in PvP. Even 2gate/obs, which is one of the safest builds you can do, usually dies to a 4gate all-in. 12nex is hard countered by proxy gates or a lucky pylon scout but those are rare enough on big 4 player maps that playing the build is still worth it for the easy wins it can get you.
On February 07 2012 14:15 mtwow789 wrote: Second, if scouted normally, then opponents can go 4gate goon. It is impossible to match his goon count and my initial 5 zealots die in vain if the opponent has apm 120+. I have to add cannons and constantly pump goons. The biggest disadvantage is that my range upgrade finishes way later than the opponent. The opponent can kill off my goons due to range. The range allows him to nick off hp from my goons.Because he has higher goon count before I reap benefit from FE, he can severely damage my econ with his 7~8goon vs my 4ish goons(w/o range) with cannons.
I have never lost against a 4gate goon build with my 12nex. My solution to your problem is to not go dragoons at all and instead to rush for DTs as soon as I see what he is doing with my zealots. There are 5 replays of me playing against 4gate in the replay pack if you're interested.
I have done this build quite a lot on iCCup and achieved a 80% winrate with it, but I feel like I'm not improving my overall skill as to 2 gate reaver into expand into normal stuff I do learn things, so I've stopped using the build. I have a question though, A clanmate of mine, UED_sebas uses the 12nex quite a lot, and I always gateway scout in PvP so what should I do to conter his 12nex? No proxy robo or 4 gate goon, I don't like all-ins.
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have done this build quite a lot on iCCup and achieved a 80% winrate with it, but I feel like I'm not improving my overall skill as to 2 gate reaver into expand into normal stuff I do learn things, so I've stopped using the build.
Interesting, I came to the same conclusion ;p
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have a question though, A clanmate of mine, UED_sebas uses the 12nex quite a lot, and I always gateway scout in PvP so what should I do to conter his 12nex? No proxy robo or 4 gate goon, I don't like all-ins.
4gate doesn't work against it anyway, as I explained in my last post. There are three counters that I use depending on the situation.
1) If you're confident in your zealot micro and the opportunity presents itself, you can manner pylon his main and rally zealots from one gateway to his base and zealot harass. Follow up with a 2nd gateway and fast goons and you can often get there before his cannons are up, in which case he's screwed. Your zealot micro must be at least equal to his and you need a good manner pylon for this to work. In fact, this is the reason that a lot of top players say this build doesn't work at very high levels: zealot micro is just too strong.
2) 2gate goon + proxy robo reaver (skipping shuttle). It's somewhat all-in but it's a pretty reliable counter if it's not scouted.
3) DT drop. This is also semi all-in and will not work against a very experienced 12nex player. It's basically a free win against inexperienced players though. Just load up 4 DTs and drop them directly on top of any cannon he has in his main. If he built his robo in his main instead of his natural, it's insta-gg.
Unfortunately, my counters are basically to just kill him and not play a long game. However, I have had some discussion with KidCanada about the build and he has a good idea for a long term counter. His idea is to double expand AND double tech (reaver/templar) at the same time. This sounds very flimsy but keep in mind that 1) the 12nex has no attacking power for quite a while and 2) reavers are extremely efficient in defence. Basically, if the 12nex player goes for some kind of mass gate all in to counter your double expand (see my game vs Sziky), you can just stop it with DTs. If he invests in a robo and obs, he will not have enough units to kill your reaver/goon defence. I don't really know the specifics so perhaps KC can shed some light on it.
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have done this build quite a lot on iCCup and achieved a 80% winrate with it, but I feel like I'm not improving my overall skill as to 2 gate reaver into expand into normal stuff I do learn things, so I've stopped using the build.
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have a question though, A clanmate of mine, UED_sebas uses the 12nex quite a lot, and I always gateway scout in PvP so what should I do to conter his 12nex? No proxy robo or 4 gate goon, I don't like all-ins.
4gate doesn't work against it anyway, as I explained in my last post. There are three counters that I use depending on the situation.
1) If you're confident in your zealot micro and the opportunity presents itself, you can manner pylon his main and rally zealots from one gateway to his base and zealot harass. Follow up with a 2nd gateway and fast goons and you can often get there before his cannons are up, in which case he's screwed. Your zealot micro must be at least equal to his and you need a good manner pylon for this to work. In fact, this is the reason that a lot of top players say this build doesn't work at very high levels: zealot micro is just too strong.
2) 2gate goon + proxy robo reaver (skipping shuttle). It's somewhat all-in but it's a pretty reliable counter if it's not scouted.
3) DT drop. This is also semi all-in and will not work against a very experienced 12nex player. It's basically a free win against inexperienced players though. Just load up 4 DTs and drop them directly on top of any cannon he has in his main. If he built his robo in his main instead of his natural, it's insta-gg.
Unfortunately, my counters are basically to just kill him and not play a long game. However, I have had some discussion with KidCanada about the build and he has a good idea for a long term counter. His idea is to double expand AND double tech (reaver/templar) at the same time. This sounds very flimsy but keep in mind that 1) the 12nex has no attacking power for quite a while and 2) reavers are extremely efficient in defence. Basically, if the 12nex player goes for some kind of mass gate all in to counter your double expand (see my game vs Sziky), you can just stop it with DTs. If he invests in a robo and obs, he will not have enough units to kill your reaver/goon defence. I don't really know the specifics so perhaps KC can shed some light on it.
First off, dont push at all, get GOON RANGE before first goon a 2nd gate around 21psi, then you will cut goons after 5th goon to double expo. If he does any 5zlot push stuff you can easily deflect it (you will have 3goon zlot something like this on the ramp) scout for any hidden zlotsprobes before you double expo then go pressure with goons to force cannons (don't have to commit at all). You will get robo before your 6th goon, get citadel as robo is finishing, get robo support bay+observatory, then templar archive, get 2nd gas @ expo when it's up. if the map is FS you can use pylon wall like in PvT cause its really good to defend, I recommend getting 2 reavers before shuttle (BUT go reaver->ob->reaver), he can't hit any timing with ob before your dt comes out anyway that is what you use to slow any 5-6gate push before ob, and when he has ob you should have a shuttle / 2 reaver and 3 base so you just defend from there. My recommendation is going to 6gate before forge and then get 2 of them to catch up if he did quick upgs. Sorry it's not too specific, I only recall the opening because it proved to be really successful and easy to block their aggression. It seems like you won't be able to afford all this, but you are cutting goons for tech/econ and the fact that he doesn't really know what you're doing makes him unable to be too greedy. (after deflecting his 5zlot push you will easily have army adv and he will be really defensive anyway)
Tried this strat maybe 5-6 times and won all of them except one game where my opponent went center 2gate. But this is D to D+ and it really does give you a clear advantage over lesser players. Thanks dRaW for the counter to this build, will keep in mind.
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have done this build quite a lot on iCCup and achieved a 80% winrate with it, but I feel like I'm not improving my overall skill as to 2 gate reaver into expand into normal stuff I do learn things, so I've stopped using the build.
Interesting, I came to the same conclusion ;p
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have a question though, A clanmate of mine, UED_sebas uses the 12nex quite a lot, and I always gateway scout in PvP so what should I do to conter his 12nex? No proxy robo or 4 gate goon, I don't like all-ins.
4gate doesn't work against it anyway, as I explained in my last post. There are three counters that I use depending on the situation.
1) If you're confident in your zealot micro and the opportunity presents itself, you can manner pylon his main and rally zealots from one gateway to his base and zealot harass. Follow up with a 2nd gateway and fast goons and you can often get there before his cannons are up, in which case he's screwed. Your zealot micro must be at least equal to his and you need a good manner pylon for this to work. In fact, this is the reason that a lot of top players say this build doesn't work at very high levels: zealot micro is just too strong.
2) 2gate goon + proxy robo reaver (skipping shuttle). It's somewhat all-in but it's a pretty reliable counter if it's not scouted.
3) DT drop. This is also semi all-in and will not work against a very experienced 12nex player. It's basically a free win against inexperienced players though. Just load up 4 DTs and drop them directly on top of any cannon he has in his main. If he built his robo in his main instead of his natural, it's insta-gg.
Unfortunately, my counters are basically to just kill him and not play a long game. However, I have had some discussion with KidCanada about the build and he has a good idea for a long term counter. His idea is to double expand AND double tech (reaver/templar) at the same time. This sounds very flimsy but keep in mind that 1) the 12nex has no attacking power for quite a while and 2) reavers are extremely efficient in defence. Basically, if the 12nex player goes for some kind of mass gate all in to counter your double expand (see my game vs Sziky), you can just stop it with DTs. If he invests in a robo and obs, he will not have enough units to kill your reaver/goon defence. I don't really know the specifics so perhaps KC can shed some light on it.
First off, dont push at all, get GOON RANGE before first goon a 2nd gate around 21psi, then you will cut goons after 5th goon to double expo. If he does any 5zlot push stuff you can easily deflect it (you will have 3goon zlot something like this on the ramp) scout for any hidden zlotsprobes before you double expo then go pressure with goons to force cannons (don't have to commit at all). You will get robo before your 6th goon, get citadel as robo is finishing, get robo support bay+observatory, then templar archive, get 2nd gas @ expo when it's up. if the map is FS you can use pylon wall like in PvT cause its really good to defend, I recommend getting 2 reavers before shuttle (BUT go reaver->ob->reaver), he can't hit any timing with ob before your dt comes out anyway that is what you use to slow any 5-6gate push before ob, and when he has ob you should have a shuttle / 2 reaver and 3 base so you just defend from there. My recommendation is going to 6gate before forge and then get 2 of them to catch up if he did quick upgs. Sorry it's not too specific, I only recall the opening because it proved to be really successful and easy to block their aggression. It seems like you won't be able to afford all this, but you are cutting goons for tech/econ and the fact that he doesn't really know what you're doing makes him unable to be too greedy. (after deflecting his 5zlot push you will easily have army adv and he will be really defensive anyway)
This sounds really interesting, thanks a lot draw. I think one of my opponents does this in a replay, although not as well. ShoX goes for a DT drop into double expo with defensive reavers I believe, but I just happened to get too far ahead since I didn't waste much money on cannons and other defensive measures.
If the fast expanding player scouts your double expo (somehow), is he pretty much forced to go into a two-base all in banking on more minerals collected?
Also, do you have a replay? I want to see how you would hold off a strong two-base attack
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have done this build quite a lot on iCCup and achieved a 80% winrate with it, but I feel like I'm not improving my overall skill as to 2 gate reaver into expand into normal stuff I do learn things, so I've stopped using the build.
Interesting, I came to the same conclusion ;p
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have a question though, A clanmate of mine, UED_sebas uses the 12nex quite a lot, and I always gateway scout in PvP so what should I do to conter his 12nex? No proxy robo or 4 gate goon, I don't like all-ins.
4gate doesn't work against it anyway, as I explained in my last post. There are three counters that I use depending on the situation.
1) If you're confident in your zealot micro and the opportunity presents itself, you can manner pylon his main and rally zealots from one gateway to his base and zealot harass. Follow up with a 2nd gateway and fast goons and you can often get there before his cannons are up, in which case he's screwed. Your zealot micro must be at least equal to his and you need a good manner pylon for this to work. In fact, this is the reason that a lot of top players say this build doesn't work at very high levels: zealot micro is just too strong.
2) 2gate goon + proxy robo reaver (skipping shuttle). It's somewhat all-in but it's a pretty reliable counter if it's not scouted.
3) DT drop. This is also semi all-in and will not work against a very experienced 12nex player. It's basically a free win against inexperienced players though. Just load up 4 DTs and drop them directly on top of any cannon he has in his main. If he built his robo in his main instead of his natural, it's insta-gg.
Unfortunately, my counters are basically to just kill him and not play a long game. However, I have had some discussion with KidCanada about the build and he has a good idea for a long term counter. His idea is to double expand AND double tech (reaver/templar) at the same time. This sounds very flimsy but keep in mind that 1) the 12nex has no attacking power for quite a while and 2) reavers are extremely efficient in defence. Basically, if the 12nex player goes for some kind of mass gate all in to counter your double expand (see my game vs Sziky), you can just stop it with DTs. If he invests in a robo and obs, he will not have enough units to kill your reaver/goon defence. I don't really know the specifics so perhaps KC can shed some light on it.
First off, dont push at all, get GOON RANGE before first goon a 2nd gate around 21psi, then you will cut goons after 5th goon to double expo. If he does any 5zlot push stuff you can easily deflect it (you will have 3goon zlot something like this on the ramp) scout for any hidden zlotsprobes before you double expo then go pressure with goons to force cannons (don't have to commit at all). You will get robo before your 6th goon, get citadel as robo is finishing, get robo support bay+observatory, then templar archive, get 2nd gas @ expo when it's up. if the map is FS you can use pylon wall like in PvT cause its really good to defend, I recommend getting 2 reavers before shuttle (BUT go reaver->ob->reaver), he can't hit any timing with ob before your dt comes out anyway that is what you use to slow any 5-6gate push before ob, and when he has ob you should have a shuttle / 2 reaver and 3 base so you just defend from there. My recommendation is going to 6gate before forge and then get 2 of them to catch up if he did quick upgs. Sorry it's not too specific, I only recall the opening because it proved to be really successful and easy to block their aggression. It seems like you won't be able to afford all this, but you are cutting goons for tech/econ and the fact that he doesn't really know what you're doing makes him unable to be too greedy. (after deflecting his 5zlot push you will easily have army adv and he will be really defensive anyway)
This sounds really interesting, thanks a lot draw. I think one of my opponents does this in a replay, although not as well. ShoX goes for a DT drop into double expo with defensive reavers I believe, but I just happened to get too far ahead since I didn't waste much money on cannons and other defensive measures.
If the fast expanding player scouts your double expo (somehow), is he pretty much forced to go into a two-base all in banking on more minerals collected?
Also, do you have a replay? I want to see how you would hold off a strong two-base attack
You make pylon wall *IF YOU NEED*(i.e they did a crazy zlot heavy army) on most maps they cant break through when you have 2 reavers + their army is only slightly larger esp after your dt delay any first push w.o ob, I can't find rep cause I sort of freestyled it a few times vs a B- protoss who did it to me.
edit: @ the dt drop idea, I find that it's risky to do something like this as a counter because your reavers will be late and it's MUCH easier to defend with shuttle reavers than without a shuttle. Lately dt drop seems like a very obvious counter so many people who 12nex are getting quicker robo which will just destroy you if you try something like that.
I've started thinking about this build a lot again recently and I've come up with a few interesting optimizations that I think will smooth out the last couple of kinks in my version of the build. Not sure if I want to post them here yet though, as I may bust this out in ISL3 qualifiers ;p
I also haven't really tested my ideas yet in real games.
NeO 12nexus gonna be skip goons and go robo @ expo, get reaver+shield batt and then ob into a 4-6gate goon+2reaver timing, cause you can't stop 3gate proxy robo any other way really (assuming you can't get a proxy on the map)
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have done this build quite a lot on iCCup and achieved a 80% winrate with it, but I feel like I'm not improving my overall skill as to 2 gate reaver into expand into normal stuff I do learn things, so I've stopped using the build.
Interesting, I came to the same conclusion ;p
On February 08 2012 06:18 KTF_CloaK wrote: I have a question though, A clanmate of mine, UED_sebas uses the 12nex quite a lot, and I always gateway scout in PvP so what should I do to conter his 12nex? No proxy robo or 4 gate goon, I don't like all-ins.
4gate doesn't work against it anyway, as I explained in my last post. There are three counters that I use depending on the situation.
1) If you're confident in your zealot micro and the opportunity presents itself, you can manner pylon his main and rally zealots from one gateway to his base and zealot harass. Follow up with a 2nd gateway and fast goons and you can often get there before his cannons are up, in which case he's screwed. Your zealot micro must be at least equal to his and you need a good manner pylon for this to work. In fact, this is the reason that a lot of top players say this build doesn't work at very high levels: zealot micro is just too strong.
2) 2gate goon + proxy robo reaver (skipping shuttle). It's somewhat all-in but it's a pretty reliable counter if it's not scouted.
3) DT drop. This is also semi all-in and will not work against a very experienced 12nex player. It's basically a free win against inexperienced players though. Just load up 4 DTs and drop them directly on top of any cannon he has in his main. If he built his robo in his main instead of his natural, it's insta-gg.
Unfortunately, my counters are basically to just kill him and not play a long game. However, I have had some discussion with KidCanada about the build and he has a good idea for a long term counter. His idea is to double expand AND double tech (reaver/templar) at the same time. This sounds very flimsy but keep in mind that 1) the 12nex has no attacking power for quite a while and 2) reavers are extremely efficient in defence. Basically, if the 12nex player goes for some kind of mass gate all in to counter your double expand (see my game vs Sziky), you can just stop it with DTs. If he invests in a robo and obs, he will not have enough units to kill your reaver/goon defence. I don't really know the specifics so perhaps KC can shed some light on it.
First off, dont push at all, get GOON RANGE before first goon a 2nd gate around 21psi, then you will cut goons after 5th goon to double expo. If he does any 5zlot push stuff you can easily deflect it (you will have 3goon zlot something like this on the ramp) scout for any hidden zlotsprobes before you double expo then go pressure with goons to force cannons (don't have to commit at all). You will get robo before your 6th goon, get citadel as robo is finishing, get robo support bay+observatory, then templar archive, get 2nd gas @ expo when it's up. if the map is FS you can use pylon wall like in PvT cause its really good to defend, I recommend getting 2 reavers before shuttle (BUT go reaver->ob->reaver), he can't hit any timing with ob before your dt comes out anyway that is what you use to slow any 5-6gate push before ob, and when he has ob you should have a shuttle / 2 reaver and 3 base so you just defend from there. My recommendation is going to 6gate before forge and then get 2 of them to catch up if he did quick upgs. Sorry it's not too specific, I only recall the opening because it proved to be really successful and easy to block their aggression. It seems like you won't be able to afford all this, but you are cutting goons for tech/econ and the fact that he doesn't really know what you're doing makes him unable to be too greedy. (after deflecting his 5zlot push you will easily have army adv and he will be really defensive anyway)
Wow, this sounds really interesting, gonna have to try this counter. One question about the proxy robo reaver though, how do I defend his DT's? Do I make an observatory and rally observers to his natural? And how do I defend the DT slipping past me into my main, keep goons there?
you keep the goons arcd outside his cannons and rally the ob there, it comes before dt anyway.
update ; there's a very popular variation of this now on korean server where they do 12nex 12gate 13forge into quicker cyber core, I have beaten this. For some reason it seems weaker but it's actually quite strong, so just thought I would share the korean version of it. Basically, since they will have less units @ first compared to the 2gate build for pressure earlier, you have to make your decisions faster since they will have tech up almost the same as you, generally I found that expanding right away doesnt really put you behind and since they will invest in a forge + few cannons, you can end up in the same situation or better if you kill their probe early (don't make more than 1 zealot, can use your first to harass them if you wish) and as always manner pylons in their mineral line is always good (assuming it's easily accessible for the map, some maps are hard to get pylons off)
How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
Try to not get manner pyloned cause this is normally a result. However, these kind of builds hard counter 12nexus because you are using 400minerals for expansion and they are using it for gateways. All you can try to do is add a third gateway and a shield battery in your natural and outmicro him. (trying not to lose probes mind you). In these early game situations your economy is behind, so maybe you want to produce probes from both nexus but send your natural probes to the main so you don't have to multitask your defense. Once secured, you can transfer probes back to the natural.
On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote: How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out.
On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote: How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out.
I guess I didn't clarify it well enough.
10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do.
On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote: How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out.
I guess I didn't clarify it well enough.
10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do.
On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote: How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out.
I guess I didn't clarify it well enough.
10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do.
oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed.
On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote: How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out.
I guess I didn't clarify it well enough.
10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do.
oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed.
In no universe,7-8 probes can take down 2000 HP(2 gateways) before they finish(~60 seconds).I'd rather focus the pylon and put 1-2 probes to attack his.
On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote: How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out.
I guess I didn't clarify it well enough.
10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do.
oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed.
In no universe,7-8 probes can take down 2000 HP(2 gateways) before they finish(~60 seconds).I'd rather focus the pylon and put 1-2 probes to attack his.
then i really have no idea what universe you live on. even if the gateway completes, his zealot still takes 40 seconds to build. if you attack the first gate as it starts warping you can take it down even before it completes. there have been several pro-games which i have seen pros attacking the proxied gateways rather than the pylon because how effectively can you take down his probe with your own probes? he can easily micro away and build pylons as he pleases.
On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote: How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out.
I guess I didn't clarify it well enough.
10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do.
oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed.
In no universe,7-8 probes can take down 2000 HP(2 gateways) before they finish(~60 seconds).I'd rather focus the pylon and put 1-2 probes to attack his.
then i really have no idea what universe you live on. even if the gateway completes, his zealot still takes 40 seconds to build. if you attack the first gate as it starts warping you can take it down even before it completes. there have been several pro-games which i have seen pros attacking the proxied gateways rather than the pylon because how effectively can you take down his probe with your own probes? he can easily micro away and build pylons as he pleases.
And what if he scouts them when they are at 250 HP for example?Not cost efficient imo.You've seen pros but i want to remind you that we are not pros.Also,even if he kills one gateway,what does he do with the second one?
On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote: How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon.
i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out.
I guess I didn't clarify it well enough.
10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do.
oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed.
In no universe,7-8 probes can take down 2000 HP(2 gateways) before they finish(~60 seconds).I'd rather focus the pylon and put 1-2 probes to attack his.
then i really have no idea what universe you live on. even if the gateway completes, his zealot still takes 40 seconds to build. if you attack the first gate as it starts warping you can take it down even before it completes. there have been several pro-games which i have seen pros attacking the proxied gateways rather than the pylon because how effectively can you take down his probe with your own probes? he can easily micro away and build pylons as he pleases.
And what if he scouts them when they are at 250 HP for example?Not cost efficient imo.You've seen pros but i want to remind you that we are not pros.Also,even if he kills one gateway,what does he do with the second one?
as with all things in broodwar, late scouting will definitively put you in a more severe spot than scouting earlier but it should still not change what you should attack. what difference does it make if you destroy the first pylon but he builds 2 more pylons at the same time, which is fairly common to do. how does this make it the more 'cost efficient' option?
and as for "we are not pros" i think that part is more relevant to the mechanics portion of the game like if you tell me to stick to 6 gateways when doing corsair reaver even if i have a macro problem, then probably it would be valid to say that i am not a pro and i cannot keep up. but in terms of strategy and decision-making, it is almost always good to follow the pros because of their superior knowledge of how things work.
As someone who regulary cheese fellow tosses with horror gates I agree with Jmave that targetting gateways are a lot more effective although you can try target the probe and after the probe died of coz u can taget down the pylon
edit: pylon works straight away gateway = need build then build zealot u lose lots of minerals when u pull probes too
Assumptions with inaccuracies (I'm not sure how build times as listed in liquipedia and such translate to frames or real-time seconds) Gateway has 1000 hp Gateway builds in 60 seconds Zealot builds in 40 seconds
Over 40 seconds, 1 probe will deal 216 damage Over 60 seconds, 1 probe will deal 324 damage
Ramifications: 4 probes attacking a gateway shortly after it begins constructing will destroy it before it warps in. 5 probes attacking a gateway even as it finishes will destroy it before a zealot is produced. Second case is nice because now the gateway is a sunk cost for the gateway-building player.
On July 12 2013 22:35 EchOne wrote: Probe vs Gateway building Zealot math:
Assumptions with inaccuracies (I'm not sure how build times as listed in liquipedia and such translate to frames or real-time seconds) Gateway has 1000 hp Gateway builds in 60 seconds Zealot builds in 40 seconds
Over 40 seconds, 1 probe will deal 216 damage Over 60 seconds, 1 probe will deal 324 damage
Ramifications: 4 probes attacking a gateway shortly after it begins constructing will destroy it before it warps in. 5 probes attacking a gateway even as it finishes will destroy it before a zealot is produced. Second case is nice because now the gateway is a sunk cost for the gateway-building player.
damage to warping in buildings vs already warped buildings is different, no?
I've been having trouble with transitioning after the FE.. Meaning after I survive and stabilize with my 4 gates and sitting behind my cannons I sometimes expand to early or to late. If anyone could give me some basic guidelines on when to expand.
I usually time it so that after 12-16 dragoons I start pumping zealots and since I have 2 gases I can add on 2 gateways and it times out so that you can make just 6 templars and I turn them into archons, but I think that I haven't been defensive enough being caught out in the open un-necessarly.
So 2 rounds of 2 goons + 2,3 rounds of 4 goons + 2 rounds of zealots then 6 templars to make them into archons and expand (I was thinking that I should get storm instead and just camp and defend my 3 bases - I'm talking in terms of FS if it's another map I obviously need to be more unit heavy on other maps)
I don't know how flawed by thought train is, but I'm sure it is so I'd really like some help on how I should transition into lategame (Considering my opponent of course).
Thanks I would really appreciate it if you guys could help me.
On August 17 2013 07:12 thezanursic wrote: I've been having trouble with transitioning after the FE.. Meaning after I survive and stabilize with my 4 gates and sitting behind my cannons I sometimes expand to early or to late. If anyone could give me some basic guidelines on when to expand.
I usually time it so that after 12-16 dragoons I start pumping zealots and since I have 2 gases I can add on 2 gateways and it times out so that you can make just 6 templars and I turn them into archons, but I think that I haven't been defensive enough being caught out in the open un-necessarly.
So 2 rounds of 2 goons + 2,3 rounds of 4 goons + 2 rounds of zealots then 6 templars to make them into archons and expand (I was thinking that I should get storm instead and just camp and defend my 3 bases - I'm talking in terms of FS if it's another map I obviously need to be more unit heavy on other maps)
I don't know how flawed by thought train is, but I'm sure it is so I'd really like some help on how I should transition into lategame (Considering my opponent of course).
Thanks I would really appreciate it if you guys could help me.
Depends on the map (easy to defend 3rd ?). Also I suggest not to morph your first HTs into archons, especially if you decide to skip reavers. I also like to skip reavers after 12 nex, but storms are needed to survive vs. reavers. if you don't have reavers yourself.
On July 12 2013 22:35 EchOne wrote: Probe vs Gateway building Zealot math:
Assumptions with inaccuracies (I'm not sure how build times as listed in liquipedia and such translate to frames or real-time seconds) Gateway has 1000 hp Gateway builds in 60 seconds Zealot builds in 40 seconds
Over 40 seconds, 1 probe will deal 216 damage Over 60 seconds, 1 probe will deal 324 damage
Ramifications: 4 probes attacking a gateway shortly after it begins constructing will destroy it before it warps in. 5 probes attacking a gateway even as it finishes will destroy it before a zealot is produced. Second case is nice because now the gateway is a sunk cost for the gateway-building player.
You've made two mistakes. 1. A second is based on normal speed, which has 67 ms/frame, which makes the DPS ~ 14,92. 2. Gateways have one armor, which means you'll need 25 more hits to kill the gateway. When the gateway finishes the shields also start to regenerate, but it wont make a huge difference.
To make it easy, we can say the effective HP of the gateway is 500+625 =1125 The new probe DPS is ~ 3.39 The time it takes to kill the gateway is then calculated by 1125 / (3.39 * #ofProbes).
332 seconds for one probe, 83 seconds for four probes. So to kill a gateway that is just started before it makes a zealot, you need to put 4 probes on it. If it's already finished you need 9, and there is not a lot of margin.
How do you defend against 2 gate proxy zealot? I typically build a shield battery at my nat while contiuing to pump zealots from 2 gateway yet in the games ive played the opponent just has an overwhelming amount of zealots. they will typically send 1 zealot to my maih to target probes while using the bulk of their zealot force to focus down my natural pylon/nexus. advice?
On July 29 2019 13:08 fefil wrote: How do you defend against 2 gate proxy zealot? I typically build a shield battery at my nat while contiuing to pump zealots from 2 gateway yet in the games ive played the opponent just has an overwhelming amount of zealots. they will typically send 1 zealot to my maih to target probes while using the bulk of their zealot force to focus down my natural pylon/nexus. advice?
Scout good, anticipate it coming, get your 2nd gateway faster, if your opponent proxy 2gates their economy will be lesser, therefor your 2nd Zealot may come out a little later, but once your econ kicks in you will be able to overwhelm with constant production / higher tech. Or you can just open with 2gate zealot econ style, which should easily beat a proxy 2gate with proper micro / temporary ramp hold.
On July 29 2019 13:08 fefil wrote: How do you defend against 2 gate proxy zealot? I typically build a shield battery at my nat while contiuing to pump zealots from 2 gateway yet in the games ive played the opponent just has an overwhelming amount of zealots. they will typically send 1 zealot to my maih to target probes while using the bulk of their zealot force to focus down my natural pylon/nexus. advice?
Scout good, anticipate it coming, get your 2nd gateway faster, if your opponent proxy 2gates their economy will be lesser, therefor your 2nd Zealot may come out a little later, but once your econ kicks in you will be able to overwhelm with constant production / higher tech. Or you can just open with 2gate zealot econ style, which should easily beat a proxy 2gate with proper micro / temporary ramp hold.
what are you talking about? 2 gate proxy zeal will have constant production already. that's not a factor friend. doesn't matter how many probes you have.you could have 9 and you will be able to afford constant 2 gate zealot production. the problem is they arrive at your nat faster and in greater numbers. idk how to stop it with only 2 gates of my own, the advantage is his. 1750 P.
9/9 proxy is pretty much a build order win over this fe build unless your micro is incredible and theirs is terrible. I’d say the best thing to do vs a 9/9 gate is to give up your natural and continue to mass zealots on your ramp while producing probes. He’ll most likely try to break you or cannon contain you. Either way his economy is going to be bad. if you survive with good micro and minimal lost mining time you can claw your way back into the game using drops
On July 29 2019 21:31 castleeMg wrote: 9/9 proxy is pretty much a build order win over this fe build unless your micro is incredible and theirs is terrible. I’d say the best thing to do vs a 9/9 gate is to give up your natural and continue to mass zealots on your ramp while producing probes. He’ll most likely try to break you or cannon contain you. Either way his economy is going to be bad if you survive with minimum lost mining time and you can claw your way back into the game using drops
This sounds about right to me. Sacrifice your natural, try to hold the ramp (with a shield battery on the high ground might help.) You should have more probes so if you can live can try to play it out. Getting a probe out on the map would be quite helpful so you can see if he expands behind his rush, goes for dt's, etc.
I'm bumping this thread because this is a build I enjoyed playing with and have enjoyed reading the comments throughout the thread by OneOther and Sayle etc.
It seems overtime that I lost my Starcraft replay folder. Unfourtanely, none of the replay links work including the ones by OneOther or the replay pack by Sayle. If anyone has them on their computer, please re-upload.
EPT
