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On July 11 2013 19:33 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 15:04 JMave wrote:On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote:
How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon. i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out. I guess I didn't clarify it well enough. 10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do.
oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed.
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On July 11 2013 23:36 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 19:33 thezanursic wrote:On July 10 2013 15:04 JMave wrote:On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote:
How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon. i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out. I guess I didn't clarify it well enough. 10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do. oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed.
In no universe,7-8 probes can take down 2000 HP(2 gateways) before they finish(~60 seconds).I'd rather focus the pylon and put 1-2 probes to attack his.
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On July 12 2013 04:59 t0ssboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 23:36 JMave wrote:On July 11 2013 19:33 thezanursic wrote:On July 10 2013 15:04 JMave wrote:On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote:
How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon. i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out. I guess I didn't clarify it well enough. 10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do. oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed. In no universe,7-8 probes can take down 2000 HP(2 gateways) before they finish(~60 seconds).I'd rather focus the pylon and put 1-2 probes to attack his.
then i really have no idea what universe you live on. even if the gateway completes, his zealot still takes 40 seconds to build. if you attack the first gate as it starts warping you can take it down even before it completes. there have been several pro-games which i have seen pros attacking the proxied gateways rather than the pylon because how effectively can you take down his probe with your own probes? he can easily micro away and build pylons as he pleases.
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On July 12 2013 13:36 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:59 t0ssboy wrote:On July 11 2013 23:36 JMave wrote:On July 11 2013 19:33 thezanursic wrote:On July 10 2013 15:04 JMave wrote:On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote:
How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon. i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out. I guess I didn't clarify it well enough. 10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do. oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed. In no universe,7-8 probes can take down 2000 HP(2 gateways) before they finish(~60 seconds).I'd rather focus the pylon and put 1-2 probes to attack his. then i really have no idea what universe you live on. even if the gateway completes, his zealot still takes 40 seconds to build. if you attack the first gate as it starts warping you can take it down even before it completes. there have been several pro-games which i have seen pros attacking the proxied gateways rather than the pylon because how effectively can you take down his probe with your own probes? he can easily micro away and build pylons as he pleases.
And what if he scouts them when they are at 250 HP for example?Not cost efficient imo.You've seen pros but i want to remind you that we are not pros.Also,even if he kills one gateway,what does he do with the second one?
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On July 12 2013 16:11 t0ssboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 13:36 JMave wrote:On July 12 2013 04:59 t0ssboy wrote:On July 11 2013 23:36 JMave wrote:On July 11 2013 19:33 thezanursic wrote:On July 10 2013 15:04 JMave wrote:On July 10 2013 02:25 thezanursic wrote:
How exactly should I deal with a 10/12 into 2 gates in my main. Seems stupid, yes, but I don't know how much exactly I should dedicate to killing them/the pylon. i don't think its actually that hard to hold off 2 gate considering that you build the second pylon in the nat and you have 2 gates pumping zealots. just add a shield battery and you are good to go. also, i have found that manner pylon is really effective against that build so you should avoid it at all costs even if it means having to stop a probe at that location just to prevent it because he will be able to get a zealot in before yours even pops out. I guess I didn't clarify it well enough. 10/12 is fine. I've dealt with that before, but I have faced 2-3 people who just proxy 2 more gateways (One of them did it in my main for fucks sake -.-) I really didn't know what to do. oh my bad i didn't read it clearly. if he proxies in your main, i would drag around 7-8 probes to take down the gateway rather than the pylon since he can easily build another pylon and in which case you will be screwed. In no universe,7-8 probes can take down 2000 HP(2 gateways) before they finish(~60 seconds).I'd rather focus the pylon and put 1-2 probes to attack his. then i really have no idea what universe you live on. even if the gateway completes, his zealot still takes 40 seconds to build. if you attack the first gate as it starts warping you can take it down even before it completes. there have been several pro-games which i have seen pros attacking the proxied gateways rather than the pylon because how effectively can you take down his probe with your own probes? he can easily micro away and build pylons as he pleases. And what if he scouts them when they are at 250 HP for example?Not cost efficient imo.You've seen pros but i want to remind you that we are not pros.Also,even if he kills one gateway,what does he do with the second one?
as with all things in broodwar, late scouting will definitively put you in a more severe spot than scouting earlier but it should still not change what you should attack. what difference does it make if you destroy the first pylon but he builds 2 more pylons at the same time, which is fairly common to do. how does this make it the more 'cost efficient' option?
and as for "we are not pros" i think that part is more relevant to the mechanics portion of the game like if you tell me to stick to 6 gateways when doing corsair reaver even if i have a macro problem, then probably it would be valid to say that i am not a pro and i cannot keep up. but in terms of strategy and decision-making, it is almost always good to follow the pros because of their superior knowledge of how things work.
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As someone who regulary cheese fellow tosses with horror gates
I agree with Jmave that targetting gateways are a lot more effective
although you can try target the probe and after the probe died of coz u can taget down the pylon
edit: pylon works straight away
gateway = need build then build zealot
u lose lots of minerals when u pull probes too
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Probe vs Gateway building Zealot math:
Assumptions with inaccuracies
(I'm not sure how build times as listed in liquipedia and such translate to frames or real-time seconds)
Gateway has 1000 hp
Gateway builds in 60 seconds
Zealot builds in 40 seconds
Fastest: 1000ms/s ÷ 42ms/frame = 23.81 FPS
Probe: 5 damage every 22 frames
Probe DPS: (23.81 FPS / 22 frames) * 5 damage =~ 5.4 DPS
Over 40 seconds, 1 probe will deal 216 damage
Over 60 seconds, 1 probe will deal 324 damage
Ramifications: 4 probes attacking a gateway shortly after it begins constructing will destroy it before it warps in. 5 probes attacking a gateway even as it finishes will destroy it before a zealot is produced. Second case is nice because now the gateway is a sunk cost for the gateway-building player.
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On July 12 2013 22:35 EchOne wrote:
Probe vs Gateway building Zealot math:
Assumptions with inaccuracies
(I'm not sure how build times as listed in liquipedia and such translate to frames or real-time seconds)
Gateway has 1000 hp
Gateway builds in 60 seconds
Zealot builds in 40 seconds
Fastest: 1000ms/s ÷ 42ms/frame = 23.81 FPS
Probe: 5 damage every 22 frames
Probe DPS: (23.81 FPS / 22 frames) * 5 damage =~ 5.4 DPS
Over 40 seconds, 1 probe will deal 216 damage
Over 60 seconds, 1 probe will deal 324 damage
Ramifications: 4 probes attacking a gateway shortly after it begins constructing will destroy it before it warps in. 5 probes attacking a gateway even as it finishes will destroy it before a zealot is produced. Second case is nice because now the gateway is a sunk cost for the gateway-building player.
damage to warping in buildings vs already warped buildings is different, no?
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United States10771 Posts
Just saw this thread was bumped and checked when I wrote it. July 21st, 2010. Three year anniversary! Damnit I miss BW
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I've been having trouble with transitioning after the FE.. Meaning after I survive and stabilize with my 4 gates and sitting behind my cannons I sometimes expand to early or to late. If anyone could give me some basic guidelines on when to expand.
I usually time it so that after 12-16 dragoons I start pumping zealots and since I have 2 gases I can add on 2 gateways and it times out so that you can make just 6 templars and I turn them into archons, but I think that I haven't been defensive enough being caught out in the open un-necessarly.
So 2 rounds of 2 goons + 2,3 rounds of 4 goons + 2 rounds of zealots then 6 templars to make them into archons and expand (I was thinking that I should get storm instead and just camp and defend my 3 bases - I'm talking in terms of FS if it's another map I obviously need to be more unit heavy on other maps)
I don't know how flawed by thought train is, but I'm sure it is so I'd really like some help on how I should transition into lategame (Considering my opponent of course).
Thanks I would really appreciate it if you guys could help me.
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On August 17 2013 07:12 thezanursic wrote:
I've been having trouble with transitioning after the FE.. Meaning after I survive and stabilize with my 4 gates and sitting behind my cannons I sometimes expand to early or to late. If anyone could give me some basic guidelines on when to expand.
I usually time it so that after 12-16 dragoons I start pumping zealots and since I have 2 gases I can add on 2 gateways and it times out so that you can make just 6 templars and I turn them into archons, but I think that I haven't been defensive enough being caught out in the open un-necessarly.
So 2 rounds of 2 goons + 2,3 rounds of 4 goons + 2 rounds of zealots then 6 templars to make them into archons and expand (I was thinking that I should get storm instead and just camp and defend my 3 bases - I'm talking in terms of FS if it's another map I obviously need to be more unit heavy on other maps)
I don't know how flawed by thought train is, but I'm sure it is so I'd really like some help on how I should transition into lategame (Considering my opponent of course).
Thanks I would really appreciate it if you guys could help me.
Depends on the map (easy to defend 3rd ?). Also I suggest not to morph your first HTs into archons, especially if you decide to skip reavers. I also like to skip reavers after 12 nex, but storms are needed to survive vs. reavers. if you don't have reavers yourself.
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On July 12 2013 22:35 EchOne wrote:
Probe vs Gateway building Zealot math:
Assumptions with inaccuracies
(I'm not sure how build times as listed in liquipedia and such translate to frames or real-time seconds)
Gateway has 1000 hp
Gateway builds in 60 seconds
Zealot builds in 40 seconds
Fastest: 1000ms/s ÷ 42ms/frame = 23.81 FPS
Probe: 5 damage every 22 frames
Probe DPS: (23.81 FPS / 22 frames) * 5 damage =~ 5.4 DPS
Over 40 seconds, 1 probe will deal 216 damage
Over 60 seconds, 1 probe will deal 324 damage
Ramifications: 4 probes attacking a gateway shortly after it begins constructing will destroy it before it warps in. 5 probes attacking a gateway even as it finishes will destroy it before a zealot is produced. Second case is nice because now the gateway is a sunk cost for the gateway-building player.
You've made two mistakes.
1. A second is based on normal speed, which has 67 ms/frame, which makes the DPS ~ 14,92.
2. Gateways have one armor, which means you'll need 25 more hits to kill the gateway.
When the gateway finishes the shields also start to regenerate, but it wont make a huge difference.
To make it easy, we can say the effective HP of the gateway is 500+625 =1125
The new probe DPS is ~ 3.39
The time it takes to kill the gateway is then calculated by 1125 / (3.39 * #ofProbes).
332 seconds for one probe, 83 seconds for four probes.
So to kill a gateway that is just started before it makes a zealot, you need to put 4 probes on it.
If it's already finished you need 9, and there is not a lot of margin.
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How do you defend against 2 gate proxy zealot? I typically build a shield battery at my nat while contiuing to pump zealots from 2 gateway yet in the games ive played the opponent just has an overwhelming amount of zealots. they will typically send 1 zealot to my maih to target probes while using the bulk of their zealot force to focus down my natural pylon/nexus. advice?
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On July 29 2019 13:08 fefil wrote:
How do you defend against 2 gate proxy zealot? I typically build a shield battery at my nat while contiuing to pump zealots from 2 gateway yet in the games ive played the opponent just has an overwhelming amount of zealots. they will typically send 1 zealot to my maih to target probes while using the bulk of their zealot force to focus down my natural pylon/nexus. advice?
Scout good, anticipate it coming, get your 2nd gateway faster, if your opponent proxy 2gates their economy will be lesser, therefor your 2nd Zealot may come out a little later, but once your econ kicks in you will be able to overwhelm with constant production / higher tech. Or you can just open with 2gate zealot econ style, which should easily beat a proxy 2gate with proper micro / temporary ramp hold.
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On July 29 2019 13:17 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2019 13:08 fefil wrote:
How do you defend against 2 gate proxy zealot? I typically build a shield battery at my nat while contiuing to pump zealots from 2 gateway yet in the games ive played the opponent just has an overwhelming amount of zealots. they will typically send 1 zealot to my maih to target probes while using the bulk of their zealot force to focus down my natural pylon/nexus. advice? Scout good, anticipate it coming, get your 2nd gateway faster, if your opponent proxy 2gates their economy will be lesser, therefor your 2nd Zealot may come out a little later, but once your econ kicks in you will be able to overwhelm with constant production / higher tech. Or you can just open with 2gate zealot econ style, which should easily beat a proxy 2gate with proper micro / temporary ramp hold.
what are you talking about? 2 gate proxy zeal will have constant production already. that's not a factor friend. doesn't matter how many probes you have.you could have 9 and you will be able to afford constant 2 gate zealot production. the problem is they arrive at your nat faster and in greater numbers. idk how to stop it with only 2 gates of my own, the advantage is his. 1750 P.
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9/9 proxy is pretty much a build order win over this fe build unless your micro is incredible and theirs is terrible. I’d say the best thing to do vs a 9/9 gate is to give up your natural and continue to mass zealots on your ramp while producing probes. He’ll most likely try to break you or cannon contain you. Either way his economy is going to be bad. if you survive with good micro and minimal lost mining time you can claw your way back into the game using drops
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I hope you are doing well frozen!
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On July 29 2019 21:31 castleeMg wrote:
9/9 proxy is pretty much a build order win over this fe build unless your micro is incredible and theirs is terrible. I’d say the best thing to do vs a 9/9 gate is to give up your natural and continue to mass zealots on your ramp while producing probes. He’ll most likely try to break you or cannon contain you. Either way his economy is going to be bad if you survive with minimum lost mining time and you can claw your way back into the game using drops
This sounds about right to me. Sacrifice your natural, try to hold the ramp (with a shield battery on the high ground might help.) You should have more probes so if you can live can try to play it out. Getting a probe out on the map would be quite helpful so you can see if he expands behind his rush, goes for dt's, etc.
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