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On October 29 2011 17:58 Kiante wrote:
Have you got any reps of that KC? it sounds really brutal. my default response to 3 gate is cannons + templar tech, so the reaver + robo to come and bust down after could work really well. if scouted tho, the 12 nexing player knows not to overmake cannons and get goons up and might be able to hold, not sure tho
Yeah he can't afford not to cut cannons because you have 3 gate of goon with range coming @ his nat. You basically cut probes when you build the robo, so your saturation is still very good. I might have a replay but I would need to find it because I don't play vs many 12nexers on fish ladder. The only thing that the 12nexer can do IF he scouts the robo is to make a robo @ his nat and go reaver + cannon, I don't think he can outproduce the goons, and dt is insta death (ob comes before).
As I previously mentioned though, you deny his scouting and can hold the 5 zlot push no problem (he should definitely not break ramp regardless) then you have to make sure there is no proxy gate if they decided to proxy gate for dts from the 12nex player.
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Australia7069 Posts
If you're making the robo after 3 gates even with cutting probes its coming fairly late. Surely theres a reasonable chance of a retardedly fast DT coming out and sneaking past the robo before an obs comes out and wrecking your probe line?
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Hey man, I just want to say thanks for sharing this build. This month I'm focusing on macro builds and I chose this build for PvP. I just played it for the first time five minutes ago and the game was hilarious. Even though my timings were complete shit I had so many units that I basically just 1a2a3a'd him mid-game with a storm here and there. I can't wait to see what I can do when I'm actually competent with the build.
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10387 Posts
On October 30 2011 06:00 Kiante wrote:
If you're making the robo after 3 gates even with cutting probes its coming fairly late. Surely theres a reasonable chance of a retardedly fast DT coming out and sneaking past the robo before an obs comes out and wrecking your probe line?
I have a lot of doubts you can get DTs out before the Obs if you went 12nex->5Zealot w/o dying to the 3gate Dragoon.
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Ever since I found this build, I’ve been using 90% of the time. So far I found few major concerns on this build. I played on Fighting Spirit most of the time. First, if for some reason opponent goes for two gate hard core zealots, it very difficult to fend off. By the time I have my first zealot out, opponent has one zealot and one probe attacking my probes at natural. After I get to hit his zealot, his second zealot reaches my base, which makes mining at natural impossible. Even I immediate lay down 3rd gate, it is too late and I can’t match his zealot count. Also things get worse when the initial scouting probe manner pylon on my base.
Second concern is when the opponent skips zealot and goes for dragoons + reaver. This is manageable if scouted, but it is very hard, as initial 5 zealots can’t kill many dragoons. His initial dragoons are easy to fend off. My 5 zealots buy enough time for me to lay down cannons at my natural choke and get two goons (but without range). However, after I get around 6~7 goons, the opponent has one reaver + goon push, which is very hard to defend. I found no way to overcome this yet unless I am lucky. Cannons are useless and opponent just volleys scrabs from far until all the cannons are out and/or he has more goon count. One time I was able to win, but it was opponent’s mistake. He was impatient and ran in even though cannons were still up. At this point, I ignore the reaver and try to micro my goons so that they are separated. Since I have more gates and I get goons faster, I was able to win the battle. I found that the key is to fight goons before reaver because, with proper micro, reavers are impossible to kill with just 6~7 goons. Once all of his goons are dead, he has no choice but to retreat or I can kill reaver easily. But this happened only once for me and I think if he waited and just volleyed scrabs from long range to kill of cannons, he would’ve easily won.
All other methods are easy to fend off. DT is so easy. I just have to place enough cannons. Sometimes I get careless and only put one cannon at my natural. I lost due to goon sniping cannon, but that was only once.
Following my expansion is also instant win. Also late scouting is instant win unless the opponent went for two gate hardcore zealots.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:08 mtwow789 wrote:
Ever since I found this build, I’ve been using 90% of the time. So far I found few major concerns on this build. I played on Fighting Spirit most of the time. First, if for some reason opponent goes for two gate hard core zealots, it very difficult to fend off. By the time I have my first zealot out, opponent has one zealot and one probe attacking my probes at natural. After I get to hit his zealot, his second zealot reaches my base, which makes mining at natural impossible. Even I immediate lay down 3rd gate, it is too late and I can’t match his zealot count. Also things get worse when the initial scouting probe manner pylon on my base.
First of all, 10/12 gate on a 4 player ramped map is generally not as good as a 1gate tech build in PvP, so you shouldn't encounter this too often. If you do though, it requires good zealot/probe micro on your part to hold off. His first zealot will get to your base just before or exactly when your first zealot pops out. I don't understand why you can't match his zealot count though. You both have 2 gateways so if you do constant zealot pump with shorter reinforcement distance, you should match him zealot for zealot. Just pull 2 probes to help your zealots fight and you should win a direct engagement. You can even put a shield battery at the natural (this is why you need the 2nd pylon there and not in your main) if you're uncomfortable with just zealots/probes. I went 5-5 against 10/12 gate in my replay pack:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137582¤tpage=11#208
On December 14 2011 07:08 mtwow789 wrote:
Second concern is when the opponent skips zealot and goes for dragoons + reaver. This is manageable if scouted, but it is very hard, as initial 5 zealots can’t kill many dragoons. His initial dragoons are easy to fend off. My 5 zealots buy enough time for me to lay down cannons at my natural choke and get two goons (but without range). However, after I get around 6~7 goons, the opponent has one reaver + goon push, which is very hard to defend. I found no way to overcome this yet unless I am lucky. Cannons are useless and opponent just volleys scrabs from far until all the cannons are out and/or he has more goon count. One time I was able to win, but it was opponent’s mistake. He was impatient and ran in even though cannons were still up. At this point, I ignore the reaver and try to micro my goons so that they are separated. Since I have more gates and I get goons faster, I was able to win the battle. I found that the key is to fight goons before reaver because, with proper micro, reavers are impossible to kill with just 6~7 goons. Once all of his goons are dead, he has no choice but to retreat or I can kill reaver easily. But this happened only once for me and I think if he waited and just volleyed scrabs from long range to kill of cannons, he would’ve easily won.
This situation is already explained in the OP. If he skips zealots, your 5 zealot attack is pretty much guaranteed to get into his main so you can see what he's doing. If you see the fast robo, get goon range and 5 gateways as quickly as possible and don't take your natural gas. Just mass goons (+ some zealots when you run out of gas) to defend it. You may need to cut probes. You're absolutely right though, in that the ideal timing is to engage his dragoons before the reaver gets there. In my experience, if you can trade dragoons one-for-one with him before the reaver gets there, you definitely should. One little subtlety that can help you a lot is knowing how many cannons you need. If he goes for more early dragoons and a slower reaver, you need to make more cannons to defend yourself but that's fine because the reaver is late. If he rushes for the reaver, you can often get away with just 1-2 cannons and get your gateways up much faster. Again, there are a lot of replays in my reppack against robo builds. I think I'm something like 90+% against 2 or 3 gate robo.
On December 14 2011 07:08 mtwow789 wrote:
All other methods are easy to fend off. DT is so easy. I just have to place enough cannons. Sometimes I get careless and only put one cannon at my natural. I lost due to goon sniping cannon, but that was only once.
Following my expansion is also instant win. Also late scouting is instant win unless the opponent went for two gate hardcore zealots.
Agreed, DT is not the best response to 12nex. Do be careful about DT drop though. If you think he's doing a DT drop, you should put 2-3 cannons in your main and get a robo at your natural near your cannon line. Getting the extra cannons if fine because the DT drop is so expensive. I recommend putting the robo near the natural cannons so he can't just drop on it and kill it (if it's in your main).
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Australia7069 Posts
dts can often give you that "oh fuck" game, where you skip a cannon in your main and die to a dt drop. or u dont see the shuttle and have 1 cannon and it dies.or you make your robo out of range of the cannon and it dies. or you make 2 cannons at your front and he runs past because you suck at clicking on dt's
fucking heartbreaking when it happens, because you know you could've stopped it QQQQQQ
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Actually, I was trying to say that when opponent does goon+reaver+shuttle attack, I ignore reaver and focus on killing off his goons while my goons are all separated so they don't receive splash damage from the reaver.
I think this has better chance against good opponents, as good reaver micro makes it impossible to kill reaver.
I have to check Sayle’s replay about how to fend off two gate. I find it very hard to micro probe and zealot together.
Sometimes probe doesn’t attack when I attack ground, I have to click zealot. Also, I tend to engage opponents first zealot with my zealot and probe, but most of the time opponent just runs around attacking my probes at natural and wait for reinforcement. There is a point where his second zealot reaches my natural before I get my second. Now I have to run around. Opponent then has various ways to mess me up. He can start attacking my pylon at natural and laying down his pylon for battery. Or much worse, he comes up to my main and start attacking my probe while other zealot+probe is following my zealot. I found it very difficult to control both probes at minerals and zealot. That is why my first zealot dies quickly. From then on every time I engage, I always lack 1~2 zealots against his.
I will try to post my replay of this case when I get home.
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Sayle, could you reupload this replay pack?
Edit: Thank you very much, Sayle.
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Can you re-upload the replay pack because the USA government shut down megaupload lol
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
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I've been doing this on Fish Server on Jade and on Iccup on FS and Python and I'm having problems with 2 things
I played one guy on both Fighting Spirit and Python and both times he went 9/11 gates and he just had too many zealots. He managed to kill my nexus and then contain me on the bottom of the ramp. Also, I played a couple more games on python and lost again to a 10/12 gate /w like 5 probes attacking
Secondly I'm having issues with someone who cuts probes and does 2 gate rangge attack with early 2nd gate. I lost to this cause he met my 5 zealots in the middle of th map and just kept rallying goons and muffling. When he attacked my nat I had 3 cannons bu could hardly afford to make more cannons or units constanly. I'm finding this 12 nexus to be weak on python cause of the short rush distances and wide natural
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On February 02 2012 07:38 Yaqoob wrote:
I've been doing this on Fish Server on Jade and on Iccup on FS and Python and I'm having problems with 2 things
I played one guy on both Fighting Spirit and Python and both times he went 9/11 gates and he just had too many zealots. He managed to kill my nexus and then contain me on the bottom of the ramp. Also, I played a couple more games on python and lost again to a 10/12 gate /w like 5 probes attacking
Secondly I'm having issues with someone who cuts probes and does 2 gate rangge attack with early 2nd gate. I lost to this cause he met my 5 zealots in the middle of th map and just kept rallying goons and muffling. When he attacked my nat I had 3 cannons bu could hardly afford to make more cannons or units constanly. I'm finding this 12 nexus to be weak on python cause of the short rush distances and wide natural
1) It's difficult to hold off a 2gate. However, if they are 2gating on a 4 player ramped map in PvP, they are probably terrible at starcraft and/or Korean and there's not much you can do about it besides micro better. Building a shield battery at your natural also helps.
2) If someone does a fast 2 gate goon and cuts probes, you should cut probes as well and just mass cannon and goons. If you look at my replays, I cut goons in a LOT of situations because I know that as long as I don't die immediately, I will have a better eco anyway because I can make probes from 2 nexuses. One cute trick you can do is sneak a probe around and block their ramp so their goons get stuck and they won't see it for a while because they're busy microing at your front.
3) I don't really know much about Python because I don't play it. But yeah, short distances and super wide naturals are pretty bad for generally bad for 12nex. On the other hand, a wide natural will make it easier to break a fast reaver/goon push on your front so there are some small benefits.
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On February 02 2012 07:38 Yaqoob wrote:
I've been doing this on Fish Server on Jade and on Iccup on FS and Python and I'm having problems with 2 things
I played one guy on both Fighting Spirit and Python and both times he went 9/11 gates and he just had too many zealots. He managed to kill my nexus and then contain me on the bottom of the ramp. Also, I played a couple more games on python and lost again to a 10/12 gate /w like 5 probes attacking
Secondly I'm having issues with someone who cuts probes and does 2 gate rangge attack with early 2nd gate. I lost to this cause he met my 5 zealots in the middle of th map and just kept rallying goons and muffling. When he attacked my nat I had 3 cannons bu could hardly afford to make more cannons or units constanly. I'm finding this 12 nexus to be weak on python cause of the short rush distances and wide natural
I remember a bnet attack where bisu said "progamers agree that 2 gate zealots is good in python". I think that was what he said, cause i don't blieve he said "progamers agreem that 2 gate zealots is the best build on python". w/e 2 gate zealots in python is common depending on level, and it would difficult to stop due that enormous choke. I suggest that you play other maps  and try this awesome build.
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Actually what Bisu said is that you should scout cross position on python and if its close position you should play 2 gate and cross position 1 gate.
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There's a really good way to deal with this build: a proxy robo w\ probe cut...right in front of their nat, after forcing cannons with goons.
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Really? well, i don't know korean and if i remember well, what i said, it's what the translation said >.<. Sorry if i misunderstand bisu .
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On February 04 2012 20:30 Soulforged wrote:
There's a really good way to deal with this build: a proxy robo w\ probe cut...right in front of their nat, after forcing cannons with goons.
I said this too but you gotta check for proxies because they can make gateway and go dt rush.
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On February 02 2012 07:47 Sayle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 07:38 Yaqoob wrote:
I've been doing this on Fish Server on Jade and on Iccup on FS and Python and I'm having problems with 2 things
I played one guy on both Fighting Spirit and Python and both times he went 9/11 gates and he just had too many zealots. He managed to kill my nexus and then contain me on the bottom of the ramp. Also, I played a couple more games on python and lost again to a 10/12 gate /w like 5 probes attacking
Secondly I'm having issues with someone who cuts probes and does 2 gate rangge attack with early 2nd gate. I lost to this cause he met my 5 zealots in the middle of th map and just kept rallying goons and muffling. When he attacked my nat I had 3 cannons bu could hardly afford to make more cannons or units constanly. I'm finding this 12 nexus to be weak on python cause of the short rush distances and wide natural 1) It's difficult to hold off a 2gate. However, if they are 2gating on a 4 player ramped map in PvP, they are probably terrible at starcraft and/or Korean and there's not much you can do about it besides micro better. Building a shield battery at your natural also helps. 2) If someone does a fast 2 gate goon and cuts probes, you should cut probes as well and just mass cannon and goons. If you look at my replays, I cut goons in a LOT of situations because I know that as long as I don't die immediately, I will have a better eco anyway because I can make probes from 2 nexuses. One cute trick you can do is sneak a probe around and block their ramp so their goons get stuck and they won't see it for a while because they're busy microing at your front. 3) I don't really know much about Python because I don't play it. But yeah, short distances and super wide naturals are pretty bad for generally bad for 12nex. On the other hand, a wide natural will make it easier to break a fast reaver/goon push on your front so there are some small benefits.
As I use this strategy solely for so many times for my PvP, I found it too luck dependant. I basically lose if I was scouted early. This strat was good until D+, but now that I am playing against C- tosses (opponents with similar or better APM than me), it is impossible to win...
First, some toss goes pylon scout, and if I get scouted in first try, then opponent can go two gates. As you see, if I was scouted in first try, that means that he is close to me, so it is difficult to overcome his zealot count.
Second, if scouted normally, then opponents can go 4gate goon. It is impossible to match his goon count and my initial 5 zealots die in vain if the opponent has apm 120+. I have to add cannons and constantly pump goons. The biggest disadvantage is that my range upgrade finishes way later than the opponent. The opponent can kill off my goons due to range. The range allows him to nick off hp from my goons.Because he has higher goon count before I reap benefit from FE, he can severely damage my econ with his 7~8goon vs my 4ish goons(w/o range) with cannons.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On February 07 2012 14:15 mtwow789 wrote:
First, some toss goes pylon scout, and if I get scouted in first try, then opponent can go two gates. As you see, if I was scouted in first try, that means that he is close to me, so it is difficult to overcome his zealot count.
Pylon scouting is sub-optimal in PvP. When was the last time you saw a progamer pylon scout? At lower levels players do it because they are scared of cheese, but it's still pretty uncommon (at least in my experience). Then you also need to get scouted first, which has 1/3 chance of happening on a 4 player map. Basically, getting scouted first by a pylon scout is a rare/unlucky situation (similar to getting proxy 9/9 gated) that does auto-win against a 12nex but is rare enough that I'm not too concerned about it. If you do get 9 pylon scouted, you should immediately throw down 2 gateways (12/12 gate) instead of the nexus and try to play from there. You're behind, but it's playable.
People have to keep in mind that this is not a catch-all build that works against everything. No build is 100% safe in PvP. Even 2gate/obs, which is one of the safest builds you can do, usually dies to a 4gate all-in. 12nex is hard countered by proxy gates or a lucky pylon scout but those are rare enough on big 4 player maps that playing the build is still worth it for the easy wins it can get you.
On February 07 2012 14:15 mtwow789 wrote:
Second, if scouted normally, then opponents can go 4gate goon. It is impossible to match his goon count and my initial 5 zealots die in vain if the opponent has apm 120+. I have to add cannons and constantly pump goons. The biggest disadvantage is that my range upgrade finishes way later than the opponent. The opponent can kill off my goons due to range. The range allows him to nick off hp from my goons.Because he has higher goon count before I reap benefit from FE, he can severely damage my econ with his 7~8goon vs my 4ish goons(w/o range) with cannons.
I have never lost against a 4gate goon build with my 12nex. My solution to your problem is to not go dragoons at all and instead to rush for DTs as soon as I see what he is doing with my zealots. There are 5 replays of me playing against 4gate in the replay pack if you're interested.
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EPT
