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Australia7069 Posts
On June 20 2011 08:49 ArvickHero wrote:
^sounds like a dodge to me lol. After all, you are C+ high and his iCCup's account highest rank (Herro_Korea) is C (but a very good record at that, so probaby higher than C in reality lol).
My 2cents about 12nex is that its not used in the upper levels of BW play for good reason, even between players of "equal skill", simply because no amount of Zealot micro can win vs good Dragoon micro after a certain skill point.
the zealots dont have to "win"
they simply tank hits and die. buying time
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United States10774 Posts
On June 20 2011 04:28 Nymph wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 04:06 Kiante wrote:On June 20 2011 03:07 Nymph wrote:
3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones) Got some replays to back this up? or are you just talking out of your ass. just because you beat someone DOING this build with that, doesn't mean it SHOULD work. You probably just played someone who didn't have enough experience with the build. i've never faced what you're saying, but i cant really envision how it would work... First thing calm damn a little bit. Second thing Yea I do have replay and you made me browse over 3k reps in my folder to find at least one(bwchart crashes on my netbook when I try to search). Third, ofc you can't imagine since you're a C level protoss + Show Spoiler +. rep: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42503 + Show Spoiler +guy did not need AH to micro even LOL ! No regards. Herro_Korea
Hey,
Why don't you actually go read the OP, watch some replays and execute it properly before you disregard the build or speak condescendingly to other people? Your build was nothing like what I tried to teach through this strategy guide, nor what other players in this thread have been doing.
I stopped watching your replay at the five minute mark. You had already lost the game by then. Why? Because the idea of the build is not to sit back on your ass behind three cannons while he masses up Dragoons and Reavers. Do you think I'm dumb? You don't think I know Reavers exist in PvP? Please read the guide and watch the replays before you try to put down other people's hard work.
Put down gateways at the right time so you can hit proper zealot timings. Don't build a forge and cannons after three zealots. The idea is to do damage, or at least pressure and buy time with five zealots while he has minimal unit count. (I quit watching the replay after you sent out 2 zealots while building cannons on pathetic probe count) Lastly, I emphasized adaptability in my post. If he scouts you first quickly and you think you are in close positions, don't fucking do the build. There is no such thing as an invincible build. (Challenging someone to use this build is also a dumb idea because surprise factor is an element you can't ignore with this strategy)
Also, you are not nearly skilled enough to be throwing down challenges everywhere nor are you good enough to be acting like you deserve some sort of special treatment. Please stop.
EDIT: "lololololol 12 nexus." Haha. Horrible attitude. It must be impossible to get an A on that test because I, the almighty Herro_Korea, can't do it. I used it successfully at the blue ranks so the fault lies in your hands.
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United States10774 Posts
I want to clarify that this build is not an universal safe build that has answers to everything. You have to be smart about when or how you use it, and how you adapt to your opponent. It has its counters. All builds do. But before you can execute it properly, you have no ground to talk. You also cannot somehow declare that it is an obsolete build because I have done it many times
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Also, you are not nearly skilled enough to be throwing down challenges everywhere nor are you good enough to be acting like you deserve some sort of special treatment. Please stop.
And you won't be telling me where I can challenge or where & telling me how good I am and what I deserve. I'll be throwing challenge to anyone I want - especially if he's at my skill level and it could proof something.
I'll take some serious time now on your build before I post in here.
"lololololol 12 nexus." Haha. Horrible attitude. It must be impossible to get an A on that test because I, the almighty Herro_Korea, can't do it. I used it successfully at the blue ranks so the fault lies in your hands.
I failed at your build and I admit it. But you have horrible approach on how to handle things Judge Dredd.
I'll be brining you proof on how this build is unstable very soon. Ciao
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It's very evident that Frozen put a lot of effort into this guide. Like any build, it is going to have faults and you're going to lose many games with it. Nevertheless, he took the time to test it many times and tried to weigh the strength and weaknesses, and it shows in his write-ups about the many situations that can occur. He didn't type this guide up in two minutes, he took a lot of time to work on it.
Show some freaking respect. Coming in here and saying "OMG this build gets hard countered by this build, must suck" and providing one replay for your "proof" is just sad. Arguing with intelligence is welcome, and that is how we all benefit and become better players. Simply posting one liners and disregarding the entire guide is not welcome, and God knows how poor this site would be if we were all like that.
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United States10774 Posts
I failed at your build and I admit it. But you have horrible approach on how to handle things Judge Dredd.
Haha well did you want me to respond to your posts with respect? If your posts showed the slightest sign of it, I would have done the same. I meant no personal offense, I just didn't like your arrogant and condescending attitude. All I wanted was you to read the guide carefully and at least execute it semi-properly before shutting it down or disrespecting others who defend the build. I am not sure how you are going to find "proof on how this build is unstable." Every build is "unstable" depending on the situation. I have never claimed that this build did not have weaknesses or certain counters, so there's nothing for you to prove. However, it can be an effective build if done correctly at the right times.
Thanks Shox 
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United States10774 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:17 Nymph wrote:Show nested quote +Also, you are not nearly skilled enough to be throwing down challenges everywhere nor are you good enough to be acting like you deserve some sort of special treatment. Please stop. And you won't be telling me where I can challenge or where & telling me how good I am and what I deserve. I'll be throwing challenge to anyone I want
Unbelievable.
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Australia7069 Posts
herro korea starting to sound like a 5 year old after his mum told him he couldn't have any more cookies
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is it possible to force as many cannons as possible and expand twice for yourself?
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On June 20 2011 13:25 JMave wrote:
is it possible to force as many cannons as possible and expand twice for yourself?
I've never encountered this exact scenario, but my intuition is telling me no, this won't work. I remember one game where I did a 12nex (not stylized like this, it was a noobie 12nex) and my opponent double expanded, and I was able to win straight up with a timing push with a lot of units.
I feel like the investment you make in probes + 3rd nexus delays your tech and unit count leaving an open timing window.... but I'll let the pros answer this question for sure
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On June 20 2011 13:25 JMave wrote:
is it possible to force as many cannons as possible and expand twice for yourself?
I doubt it, when you are doing this build u want to match the unit count urself, shouldnt rely too much on cannons if i scout like 3 gates i'll usually do 4.
So i doubt u can pull it off by expanding twice.
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On June 21 2011 14:31 HaFnium wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 13:25 JMave wrote:
is it possible to force as many cannons as possible and expand twice for yourself? I doubt it, when you are doing this build u want to match the unit count urself, shouldnt rely too much on cannons if i scout like 3 gates i'll usually do 4. So i doubt u can pull it off by expanding twice.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about responding to this build, not doing it yourself
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Yo dawg... its 2011... LOLOLOL what are you doing here?
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United States10774 Posts
O shit SJM! I know man. I can't help but to come back and post here every time summer comes around haha
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This is such a hard build I have to think so much when I use it and I can only beat weaker players with it (I can only beat a few D- and I'm D/D-). Against anyone who is my skill level or higher I have extreme difficulties 
I die to early all-in Zealots, early 2 reaver dragoon pushes, and other things. It seems like my economy does not kick in time for it to be effective. I'm cutting so many probes that I'm on 2 bases but have for a much fewer probes than my opponent.
It's very likely just my bad execution but IMO this build has very little room for error and is easy to lose with. I really like it though, still as it's extra fun if you win with it.
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This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
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On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote:
This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
I rarely encounter this build on the ladder, if you know or suspect your oponent is 12 nexing go 10/10 gates and straight up win, even 10/12 its still a win, 10/15 Gate Goon is also a straight up win.
Some people may argue other wise but if players with the same micro, multitask and macro face each other the 12 nexing guy will be at a serious disadvantage to 2 gate, even 10/12.
If you do a 1gate opening you got 2 options:
if you have REALLY good micro and multitask, rally your gate to his base, individually micro your zealots to kill probes, but to NOT die, you gotta keep his zealots occupied, along with some goons, by the time of your 2nd goon you have the minerals to expand, then go up to 3 or 4 gates.
You can also all in, you easily deny the 5 zealots scouting with the zcorez opening, you will have 2 zealots walling + 1 probe behind the zealots + 2 goons and the 3rd goon almost made.
From here you get proxy a fast robo off 1 gate or 2 and crawl reavers to his natural, and later add more gates with the proxy pylon.
You can go in base or proxied 4 gate goon.
But if you're doing the all in you gotta deny scouting, even if you need to mineral walk 10 probes down your ramp to prevent him coming up.
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On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote:
This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance!
Just make 2 Zealots out of your initial Gateway and make a Nexus, then match the opponents 2 Gateways and you will be ahead in tech and probably in economy, unless your opponent has better micro than you. This is because Protoss expansions really don't give a large advantage if they are only up for a short amount of time until the opponent gets an expansion in the PvP matchup, and your initial Zealots at the very least should kill one Probe and delay some mining time from the opponent running their Probes. Its also inefficient for a player to go up to 2 Gates and get Zealots after going for a 13 Nexus, I don't even know why this guide advocates for that.
Your other option would be to get 2 Dragoons and deny scouting. Your opponent won't know if you are going for a 2 Dragoon Expansion (Which will give you a large enough tech lead to where the economy won't matter if the opponent went 2 Gate 5 Zealots), 4 Gate Dragoons, 3 Gate Dragoons, 2 Gate Reaver, etc... Now we are under the assumption you are doing the safe 2 Dragoon Expansion opening that will provide you with an advantage, if unscouted. Make sure you push out with 3 Dragoons at the timing you would push out if you were going for a 4 Gate Goon push. If you properly deny scouting and push out as if your 4 reinforcement Dragoons were trailing your 3 Dragoons as if you were doing a 4 Gate Goon push you will effectively force your opponent to make additional Cannons, and your opponent really won't even have an economic advantage. The scout denial processes are complicated if you don't frequently watch VODs but are rather simple if you're familiar with the playstyle of professional players.
All in all, you shouldn't have too much difficulty defeating this opening. Its not as strong as a standard opening, especially when the player follows up with 2 Gateways and 5 Zealots. The Zealots won't be able to get into your base if you have effective Dragoon micro since if your opponent sacrifises the 5 Zealots to scout for the 2 Gate Expansion timing, there will be no way for the opponent to stop a 4 Gate Goon all in. Therefore, your opponent is flipping a coin and thus I consider this a cheesy build that isn't worth practicing if you really want to improve your play. But if you want to stay in the low C ranks for a couple years, have at it. Practice this build.
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 27 2011 11:00 tryummm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote:
This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance! Just make 2 Zealots out of your initial Gateway and make a Nexus, then match the opponents 2 Gateways and you will be ahead in tech and probably in economy, unless your opponent has better micro than you. This is because Protoss expansions really don't give a large advantage if they are only up for a short amount of time until the opponent gets an expansion in the PvP matchup, and your initial Zealots at the very least should kill one Probe and delay some mining time from the opponent running their Probes. Its also inefficient for a player to go up to 2 Gates and get Zealots after going for a 13 Nexus, I don't even know why this guide advocates for that. Your other option would be to get 2 Dragoons and deny scouting. Your opponent won't know if you are going for a 2 Dragoon Expansion (Which will give you a large enough tech lead to where the economy won't matter if the opponent went 2 Gate 5 Zealots), 4 Gate Dragoons, 3 Gate Dragoons, 2 Gate Reaver, etc... Now we are under the assumption you are doing the safe 2 Dragoon Expansion opening that will provide you with an advantage, if unscouted. Make sure you push out with 3 Dragoons at the timing you would push out if you were going for a 4 Gate Goon push. If you properly deny scouting and push out as if your 4 reinforcement Dragoons were trailing your 3 Dragoons as if you were doing a 4 Gate Goon push you will effectively force your opponent to make additional Cannons, and your opponent really won't even have an economic advantage. The scout denial processes are complicated if you don't frequently watch VODs but are rather simple if you're familiar with the playstyle of professional players. All in all, you shouldn't have too much difficulty defeating this opening. Its not as strong as a standard opening, especially when the player follows up with 2 Gateways and 5 Zealots. The Zealots won't be able to get into your base if you have effective Dragoon micro since if your opponent sacrifises the 5 Zealots to scout for the 2 Gate Expansion timing, there will be no way for the opponent to stop a 4 Gate Goon all in. Therefore, your opponent is flipping a coin and thus I consider this a cheesy build that isn't worth practicing if you really want to improve your play. But if you want to stay in the low C ranks for a couple years, have at it. Practice this build.
any replays of these techniques or is this pure theorycrafting? Because in my experience your methods of denying scouting of the 5 zealots just dont work.
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United States10774 Posts
On October 27 2011 11:32 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:00 tryummm wrote:On October 23 2011 21:10 KTF_CloaK wrote:
This is such an awesome build man, epic bump for that. Also for the Sayke shoutout he gave in his interview, this build is super consistent and Sayle does it all the time when he PvP's. Anyways I would like to know a 'counter' to this build, like a measure to take. Like how do I hold off the initial 5zealot attack with 1gate tech, should i double expand? When should I tech or throw down mass gates? Whats is the proper way to get the eco/unit advantage over his awesome ecobuild? Thanks in advance! Just make 2 Zealots out of your initial Gateway and make a Nexus, then match the opponents 2 Gateways and you will be ahead in tech and probably in economy, unless your opponent has better micro than you. This is because Protoss expansions really don't give a large advantage if they are only up for a short amount of time until the opponent gets an expansion in the PvP matchup, and your initial Zealots at the very least should kill one Probe and delay some mining time from the opponent running their Probes. Its also inefficient for a player to go up to 2 Gates and get Zealots after going for a 13 Nexus, I don't even know why this guide advocates for that. Your other option would be to get 2 Dragoons and deny scouting. Your opponent won't know if you are going for a 2 Dragoon Expansion (Which will give you a large enough tech lead to where the economy won't matter if the opponent went 2 Gate 5 Zealots), 4 Gate Dragoons, 3 Gate Dragoons, 2 Gate Reaver, etc... Now we are under the assumption you are doing the safe 2 Dragoon Expansion opening that will provide you with an advantage, if unscouted. Make sure you push out with 3 Dragoons at the timing you would push out if you were going for a 4 Gate Goon push. If you properly deny scouting and push out as if your 4 reinforcement Dragoons were trailing your 3 Dragoons as if you were doing a 4 Gate Goon push you will effectively force your opponent to make additional Cannons, and your opponent really won't even have an economic advantage. The scout denial processes are complicated if you don't frequently watch VODs but are rather simple if you're familiar with the playstyle of professional players. All in all, you shouldn't have too much difficulty defeating this opening. Its not as strong as a standard opening, especially when the player follows up with 2 Gateways and 5 Zealots. The Zealots won't be able to get into your base if you have effective Dragoon micro since if your opponent sacrifises the 5 Zealots to scout for the 2 Gate Expansion timing, there will be no way for the opponent to stop a 4 Gate Goon all in. Therefore, your opponent is flipping a coin and thus I consider this a cheesy build that isn't worth practicing if you really want to improve your play. But if you want to stay in the low C ranks for a couple years, have at it. Practice this build. any replays of these techniques or is this pure theorycrafting? Because in my experience your methods of denying scouting of the 5 zealots just dont work.
Agreed with this. Do you have replays of what you are talking about? Because literally almost every point you have made is incorrect. For example, matching my expansion will put you behind, as I will have a bigger economy than you. My expansion is sufficiently earlier than yours that if you do not inflict early or mid game damage (either through an all-in or some harass) the economic advantage will simply crush you. I can either continue the Zealot pressure or play a defensive style with lots of probes, which will both put me in a good position. Your timing doesn't work out because your initial Zealots won't do anything as I will have more than you, and I can use them to make you cut probes. Inefficient to go up to two gates? Absolutely not. It allows you to pressure, usually scout, and defend versus any type of early game aggression. If you are advocating for a Two Dragoon opening, I literally don't know what to tell you. This build will scout what you are doing. Watch the replays and study the timing.
Low C rank? I frequently won with this at the blue ranks using this build. What rank are you to talk like that?
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EPT
