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On January 27 2011 14:58 OneOther wrote:
Hey ArvickHero, could you upload the replay if possible?
I have not watched the game and I am not sure what exactly happened. I am sure the fact that Stork is probably the best Protoss player ever, especially in 2010, would not help Vulture's case though. I have never even heard of Vulture haha.
But if you could upload it, I'd love to watch it and write my thoughts on it.
Rep pack of IEF2010 can be downloaded here :
[url blocked]
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That build is automatic gg vs the agresive manner pylon, probe hunt, wich any smart and confident player (white-ra does that a lot, and even if im a total noob compared to him, i won most of my pvps like that),will pull off as soon as they went 1 gate and see your nexus.I think most ppl know about this.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:54 iloveav wrote:
That build is automatic gg vs the agresive manner pylon, probe hunt, wich any smart and confident player (white-ra does that a lot, and even if im a total noob compared to him, i won most of my pvps like that),will pull off as soon as they went 1 gate and see your nexus.I think most ppl know about this.
Assuming you went for the standard 10 gate in your main, my first zealot will pop out just in time to defend your first zealot, and I will be able to match your zealot count even if you went 10/12 gate* (pretty uncommon on big maps like FS) due to the walking distance. If you manner pylon my minerals, I will simply transfer more probes to my natural so that my main only has about 1 probe per patch, which completely negates one effect of the manner pylon: causing probes to go around to the back of the mineral line and thus lose mining time. At most, you will trap one probe, which I think is acceptable considering my econ advantage. It is certainly possible to do good damage with good zealot micro, but it is by no means an "automatic gg".
*A side note on facing 10/12 gate. As Kiante says, it's pretty hard against someone with really good micro. Your zealots will actually pop out a fraction after their zealots reach your base (in close positions), so it's pretty nerve-wracking to deal with. I usually throw down a shield battery as soon as I see this, and I've been experimenting with pulling different amounts of probes to the natural to help defend. As I said though, 10/12 is pretty uncommon on a map like FS.
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What you guys think is the best counter to this strategy pulled by decent player:
1. I managed to beat it with fast dt drop into storm drops, but good player would be able to defend that. If it fails, you are dead no matter what.
2. Also beatable with perfect timing reaver goon push, but when it fails you are very much behind and good player will roll you with an advantage of faster third or even straight of 2 base, because your nat will be much later than his.
3. I managed to win by surprise 3 gate speed zealot asap. rush. Basically you should be able to take down his nat or make enough damage to get advantage, than you can control map with dt's and transition into storm drop. Problem is that it is countered by more than 3 cannons at the nat or 3 are enough with good micro.
4. Proxy gates zealot bust - very dangerous and with shield battery and good micro he can defend (fails if proxy scouted)
5. Proxy gates goon rush when range is done - my micro might be too bad, but he has 4 gates at that time and with help of probes he manages to defend and i am screwed with no exp.
(fails if proxy scouted)
6. Expand immediately and copy the build - play macro war, try to get earlier third without dying or kill him if he is greedy.
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On February 08 2011 02:32 Ricjames wrote:
What you guys think is the best counter to this strategy pulled by decent player:
1. I managed to beat it with fast dt drop into storm drops, but good player would be able to defend that. If it fails, you are dead no matter what.
2. Also beatable with perfect timing reaver goon push, but when it fails you are very much behind and good player will roll you with an advantage of faster third or even straight of 2 base, because your nat will be much later than his.
3. I managed to win by surprise 3 gate speed zealot asap. rush. Basically you should be able to take down his nat or make enough damage to get advantage, than you can control map with dt's and transition into storm drop. Problem is that it is countered by more than 3 cannons at the nat or 3 are enough with good micro.
4. Proxy gates zealot bust - very dangerous and with shield battery and good micro he can defend (fails if proxy scouted)
5. Proxy gates goon rush when range is done - my micro might be too bad, but he has 4 gates at that time and with help of probes he manages to defend and i am screwed with no exp.
(fails if proxy scouted)
6. Expand immediately and copy the build - play macro war, try to get earlier third without dying or kill him if he is greedy.
if you open 2 gate, outmicro and win.
if you open 10 gate 12 pylon. just expand after 1 zealot and add a second gateway after the expo.
if you open 10 gate 11 gas, it depends on if you scout in time or not. if you scout early, you can either cancel assimilator or let it finish and not mine from it, expand and add second gateway. if you already started mining gas and core is already down then just play 1 gate expo. using goon micro to soften up 1st 5 zealots. then transition into 2 gate robotics with a pretty early citadel. this allows you to defend any dt follow up while getting your own templar pretty early to break any early obs free push. if its obviously going to be a reaver push follow up then, mass goon, get your own reaver, shield battery.
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Sorry for the bump.....
I have been using this build almost exclusively in 4 player maps pvp. (e.g. circuit breakers, FS)
I think it's been countered quite well now, as opposed to last season. Espeically if you are scouted early.
Generally it can be countered by:
1. some sort of early pressure e.g. 3 gate goons, reavers taht can kill u outright the 2nd gate can be added really fast so dragoons are in time to deal with the 5 zealots, mostly u wont be able to kill many probes
2. 1 gate zeal -> FE, then match gate count, then it mite end of pretty much equal
Anyone knows of any refinement of this build so it can be used more effectively?
edit: I think is the 5 zealot necessary? Maybe a faster tech will be better? Since I think most protoss can now deal with them quite well....
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Australia7069 Posts
On June 20 2011 00:43 HaFnium wrote:
Sorry for the bump.....
I have been using this build almost exclusively in 4 player maps pvp. (e.g. circuit breakers, FS)
I think it's been countered quite well now, as opposed to last season. Espeically if you are scouted early.
Generally it can be countered by:
1. some sort of early pressure e.g. 3 gate goons, reavers taht can kill u outright the 2nd gate can be added really fast so dragoons are in time to deal with the 5 zealots, mostly u wont be able to kill many probes
2. 1 gate zeal -> FE, then match gate count, then it mite end of pretty much equal
Anyone knows of any refinement of this build so it can be used more effectively?
edit: I think is the 5 zealot necessary? Maybe a faster tech will be better? Since I think most protoss can now deal with them quite well....
if you're losing to 3 gate goon or reaver play you need to re-read the OP. as for 1 gate zeal FE, as long as you dont lose probes to their zealots you're still quite ahead. just be careful with your micro.
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3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones)
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Australia7069 Posts
On June 20 2011 03:07 Nymph wrote:
3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones)
Got some replays to back this up? or are you just talking out of your ass. just because you beat someone DOING this build with that, doesn't mean it SHOULD work. You probably just played someone who didn't have enough experience with the build. i've never faced what you're saying, but i cant really envision how it would work...
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On June 20 2011 04:06 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 03:07 Nymph wrote:
3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones) Got some replays to back this up? or are you just talking out of your ass. just because you beat someone DOING this build with that, doesn't mean it SHOULD work. You probably just played someone who didn't have enough experience with the build. i've never faced what you're saying, but i cant really envision how it would work...
First thing calm damn a little bit. Second thing Yea I do have replay and you made me browse over 3k reps in my folder to find at least one(bwchart crashes on my netbook when I try to search). Third, ofc you can't imagine since you're a C level protoss+ Show Spoiler +.
rep: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42503 + Show Spoiler +guy did not need AH to micro even LOL !
No regards.
Herro_Korea
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Australia7069 Posts
On June 20 2011 04:28 Nymph wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 04:06 Kiante wrote:On June 20 2011 03:07 Nymph wrote:
3 gate goon pressure into proxy reaver without shuttle kills this build on almost all maps(except the island ones) Got some replays to back this up? or are you just talking out of your ass. just because you beat someone DOING this build with that, doesn't mean it SHOULD work. You probably just played someone who didn't have enough experience with the build. i've never faced what you're saying, but i cant really envision how it would work... First thing calm damn a little bit. Second thing Yea I do have replay and you made me browse over 3k reps in my folder to find at least one(bwchart crashes on my netbook when I try to search). Third, ofc you can't imagine since you're a C level protoss + Show Spoiler +. rep: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42503 + Show Spoiler +guy did not need AH to micro even LOL ! No regards. Herro_Korea
Well for starters. you did it wrong. you should probably go re-read the OP. Any data after the massive build order failure is irrelevant.
a) you dropped the 12 nex after being scouted first(better off to just go 12/12 gate at that point because it allows too much time for your opponent to get up to something tricky)
b) you went 12/13 gate, its 12/14. as a result your zealot timing was off
c) you dropped a forge after 3 zealots? you're supposed to do a 5 zealot push,
d) i stopped watching because you obviously had no idea how to 12 nex.
got a proper replay there? or u just gonna be mad.
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How to counter this build? Or at least how to go into mid/late game without opponent being too far ahead?
I need some advice.. What to do when you're going 1gate gas zealot and then you scout this?
edit: and I'd mostly appreciate a counter that is not all-in or cheese, but something that will balance the economy between players without risking too much and relying on "luck" and "bad scouting".
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Australia7069 Posts
On June 20 2011 04:56 Piste wrote:
How to counter this build? Or at least how to go into mid/late game without opponent being too far ahead?
I need some advice.. What to do when you're going 1gate gas zealot and then you scout this?
try and do some harass with your initial zealots. You can keep the 12 nexer distracted and kill some probes while dropping a quick nexus and go into the midgame not too far behind. You can always try going allin with whatever build you want, but if the 12 nexer is on their game, it wont work. If you want to kill it early, your best bet is to keep 2 harassing zealots alive while you rally goons and essentially win by way of superior micro. This happens to me sometimes, but its pretty much a case of me just being worse than my opponent.
you could also try proxying some gates near their nat and hope they dont scout properly(i do this sometimes. i see no nexus and no tech/extra gates in base and dont put two and two together and just die)
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wow Kiante, you sound mad and like C level toss, my zealot timing did not even matter if you watch replay and notice what build this guy used. How about I'll play vs you and use this puppy(obv I'll play according to scout).
Choose date, just not today.
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Australia7069 Posts
On June 20 2011 05:00 Nymph wrote:
wow Kiante, you sound mad and like C level toss, my zealot timing did not even matter if you watch replay and notice what build this guy used. How about I'll play vs you and use this puppy(obv I'll play according to scout).
Choose date, just not today.
Why does every argument about builds come down to "OH LETS PLAY LOL"
sure, you're a better player than me, but if you're going to make an argument that a build doesn't work against x, at least show a replay of this build being played between two equally skilled players PROPERLY.
the replay you've shown here, is wrong. plain and simple.
oh and your build order DID make a big difference. Dropping the forge THAT early means a) your 5 zealot timing is delayed. your tech is delayed. When facing a reaver its important you have enough goons to snipe it before it kills your cannons, and by dropping a forge that early, along with cutting a probe to get a gateway up, all would contribute to that being less than achievable when the reaver rolled up.
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On June 20 2011 04:59 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 04:56 Piste wrote:
How to counter this build? Or at least how to go into mid/late game without opponent being too far ahead?
I need some advice.. What to do when you're going 1gate gas zealot and then you scout this? try and do some harass with your initial zealots. You can keep the 12 nexer distracted and kill some probes while dropping a quick nexus and go into the midgame not too far behind.
But with good micro zealot harrass will not work since he doesn't lose probes becouse it's easy to pull them away after one or two hits. zealots can't move trought workers and propably will get hits from 12 nexers zealots. and don't I die when he comes with his 5 zealots and I've already damaged/killed my two zealots?
If you want to kill it early, your best bet is to keep 2 harassing zealots alive while you rally goons and essentially win by way of superior micro. This happens to me sometimes, but its pretty much a case of me just being worse than my opponent.
Okay this sounds something I'd like to test, but what build to use when I start from 1gate gas?
zzcore or z core z ?
harrass with those two zealots and go two gate goons? when to attack with dragoons? immediately when 1st one is out or later with 3?
doesn't this die to 12nexers goons since there's still those 5 zealots and it's hard to micro goon vs goon without taking hits from those zealots at tight choke?
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Dropping the forge THAT early means a) your 5 zealot timing is delayed.
I should not do 5 zealots vs his build at all.
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Australia7069 Posts
The idea of the keeping zealots alive is to do a momentum play and not let the 12 nexer get their tech/cannons in play, so rally the goons down, just 2 gate is enough and start teching to robo. if you keep them busy long enough the reaver should be a finishing blow. a B+ korean did this to me, i'll have a poke around and see if i can find the replay but i think it might've been last season, in which case i wont be able to find it in my match list 
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Australia7069 Posts
*Note about the five zealots: Always make these zealots. Why? Because it allows you to do these critical things in the early game:
1) Forcing him to cut probes to match your gateway/zealot count
2) Getting in his base to scout what he's doing if he one gate teched
3) Fending off any aggressive or proxy zealot builds
4) Afflicting economical damage.
If you're not going to do the build properly. dont comment that it doesn't work.
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EPT
