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United States10774 Posts
On December 26 2010 10:13 Ry-Masta-T wrote:
I made this my PvP standard when it was first published. Went to a little sc1 lan/tourney right before the release of SC2 and this build clowned on fools. Got myself a free copy of sc2 ^^ bigs ups OO
Hahaha are you serious? That's awesome man. Makes me feel really good
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i found this build to be great to gain an econ advantage. most tosses that i played tried to abuse earlier goon range tech to harass but the 5 zealots worked really well to stall him before my goons came out.
the only thing that's making me uncomfortable is that i have quite a short time to prepare for a dts
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United States10774 Posts
On December 26 2010 18:14 JMave wrote:
i found this build to be great to gain an econ advantage. most tosses that i played tried to abuse earlier goon range tech to harass but the 5 zealots worked really well to stall him before my goons came out.
the only thing that's making me uncomfortable is that i have quite a short time to prepare for a dts
yeah but if he goes DTs it's really damn obvious. weak goon pressure, passive army management, etc. i actually love it when he goes DTs because you KNOW you have the game pretty much won if u build two cannons. and you usually get them anyways.
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well i had a game vs supernovamaniac and i felt pretty frustrated when i saw the FE cause i had no idea how to react to it so i thought hey what if theres a timing attack? So i did a probe/goon rush but it failed miserably because it was unorganized.
So just wondering, could this be countered by any early attacks (such as Zealot/probe or goon/probe excluding proxys)?
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What do you feel like is the strongest counter to this build?
Thanks for the guide btw!
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On December 27 2010 15:03 Kenpachi wrote:
well i had a game vs supernovamaniac and i felt pretty frustrated when i saw the FE cause i had no idea how to react to it so i thought hey what if theres a timing attack? So i did a probe/goon rush but it failed miserably because it was unorganized.
So just wondering, could this be countered by any early attacks (such as Zealot/probe or goon/probe excluding proxys)?
I've been really thinking about this build for a long time.
Honestly, unless there's a proxy, any early game can't be countered if the opponent plays decent.
I think best counter would be to make a second gate then expand right away. Using the earlier gas as advantage, start harassing or get faster tech.
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I've used this build a fair amount in the past. The awesome thing about this build is that few players, even up to C level, know how to play against it; 50% of the time the opponent goes 1gate DTs or robo, which auto-loses versus the first 5 zealots.
I think that the most reliable counter, if you're playing against 12 nex, is to go 2gate robo into reaver. It's very hard for your opponent to pressure you with zeals if you have decent goon micro, since his zeals are delayed; further, if you deny scouting early enough, your opponent won't know if you're going 2gate or 4gate allin, so he'll have to add cannons to his nat to defend. Then you use the shuttle-reaver to circumvent his defences and stall while you get a good mass of goons, and then bust the nat.
Granted, out of probably a hundred pvp's I've played using 12 nex, I can only recall like two games facing this build - once I lost, and the other time I managed a comeback. So I don't really have any practical experience to back up this claim. You're welcome to message me for a game on iCCup (just4funz), although I'm only sporadically on nowadays.
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Oh my god, so cool to see a guide on this. My friend and I experimented with this a lot after we lost to a Korean who did this FE build. It's really good since it really goes against the standard PvP idea of whoever expands without advantage or good defense is going to get steamrolled. Won many a games with this
Also, most players respond to this by (1) early aggression which can be taken down if you know what you're doing or (2) counter-cheese or something of the sort so just be careful and then its pretty much over.
Edit: and like a lot of the other guys are saying, so few people know how to respond to it, it's great!
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I really like this build! :D
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United States10774 Posts
My thoughts on the best counter to this build:
In my opinion, I think the best counter is to open with a 10/12 double gate opening to pressure with Zealots. This could make you skip a few probes here and there, which negates the economic advantage to some point and stops the five Zealots you will send to his base. After this, he should get Dragoon range as soon as possible (this will keep you on your toes and force some photon cannons), while taking his own expansion with non-stop probe production and either into a 1) two reaver/shuttle timing attack or 2) speed shuttle reaver harass into templar transition. (Similar to what zcxvbn describes)
Who opens two gate on maps like Fighting Spirit and etc anyways? This build is extremely strong against the common one-gate gas openings.
You can, of course, beat ANY build if you play well enough. That's what I like about this build, there is no simple hard counter that you will automatically die to. You will also get a lot of easy wins if your opponent doesn't know how to play against this, which is often the case, and tries to do some gimmicky stuff. (I guess 9/11 proxy gates is a bit different story. Hard to stop that, but at that point you can just throw away your nexus or cancel it if you see it on time and just defend your ramp. You have more probes.)
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I had a really satisfying win with this against DTs today. It's a good feeling when you see those DTs, knowing you have a few cannons at home and a base advantage 
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btw, happy birthday dood! 
I doubt you remember, but you were the one who brought me into TL.net. Summer 2008, trolling x.2)'s channel on West. I think you pointed me to some TLAttack vods, which in the end brought me here.
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On December 28 2010 11:33 OneOther wrote:
My thoughts on the best counter to this build:
In my opinion, I think the best counter is to open with a 10/12 double gate opening to pressure with Zealots. This could make you skip a few probes here and there, which negates the economic advantage to some point and stops the five Zealots you will send to his base. After this, he should get Dragoon range as soon as possible (this will keep you on your toes and force some photon cannons), while taking his own expansion with non-stop probe production and either into a 1) two reaver/shuttle timing attack or 2) speed shuttle reaver harass into templar transition. (Similar to what zcxvbn describes)
Who opens two gate on maps like Fighting Spirit and etc anyways? This build is extremely strong against the common one-gate gas openings.
You can, of course, beat ANY build if you play well enough. That's what I like about this build, there is no simple hard counter that you will automatically die to. You will also get a lot of easy wins if your opponent doesn't know how to play against this, which is often the case, and tries to do some gimmicky stuff. (I guess 9/11 proxy gates is a bit different story. Hard to stop that, but at that point you can just throw away your nexus or cancel it if you see it on time and just defend your ramp. You have more probes.)
I get pretty frustrated when people pull out this build on me because I don't really know what to do. I tend to have pretty good success with it, and I haven't really lost with it for any reason other than me messing up.
Assuming it was too late to go 10/12 2gate pressure > expo like you noted, how would you respond if someone did this to you and you went standard 1/2 gate cyber timing? If you DT rush you are going to lose vs a player that foresees it. If you 1/2 gate reaver he will probably have enough goons out to defend. If you expand you are behind economically.
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haha. on a side note, i just played grobyc pvp on fs and he used this build.rep
+ Show Spoiler +even though i lost, i thought that i could have clinched the game in the beginning had i sniped his goons instead of probes. my lacking macro ability and losing shuttle/reaver made me lose the game 
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Australia7069 Posts
I feel like a well hidden 3-4 gate goon timing attack to bust your cannons works pretty well vs this. if you cant get the scouting info, its hard to know whats coming, then the timing attack comes and you just dont have enough to hold it assuming they focus a cannon or two down before your zealots can get in the ruckus. I know you say to do the 5 zealot attack but that can be easily held with an early second gate and 2 zealots ramp blocking with goon/probe support. If you suicide the zealots you lose to the push, if u back off you die to the push, i just couldn't work it out so i went back to standard play
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On January 01 2011 13:43 JMave wrote:haha. on a side note, i just played grobyc pvp on fs and he used this build. rep+ Show Spoiler +even though i lost, i thought that i could have clinched the game in the beginning had i sniped his goons instead of probes. my lacking macro ability and losing shuttle/reaver made me lose the game
+ Show Spoiler +i was in another game when i got the message following it. yeah, that was close man ~_~
I was actually so close to gging when you had about 5-6 dragoons vs my 2 + probes or w/e lol. I don't think I should have pulled so many probes when I saw your shield battery, I lost a lot of mining time and my core was pretty late. I was so glad when I sniped your shuttle though.
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United States10774 Posts
On January 01 2011 14:26 Kiante wrote:I feel like a well hidden 3-4 gate goon timing attack to bust your cannons works pretty well vs this. if you cant get the scouting info, its hard to know whats coming, then the timing attack comes and you just dont have enough to hold it assuming they focus a cannon or two down before your zealots can get in the ruckus. I know you say to do the 5 zealot attack but that can be easily held with an early second gate and 2 zealots ramp blocking with goon/probe support. If you suicide the zealots you lose to the push, if u back off you die to the push, i just couldn't work it out so i went back to standard play
i have never lost against 3 or 4 gate dragoon push. with those 5 zealots, you will always get a good sense of what he's doing. further, you must continue sending probes to his base to check how many dragoons he has. if he's trying to hide them, apply some (fake) pressure to see his army. it's just too easy to sense any type of dragoon bust. build cannons, play defense and win.
grobyc: i will address your questions in a later post more thoroughly.
happy new years!
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What if they go 3 gate all-in zealot? The opponent would know you have slow tech and will be able to overwhelm with all-in zealots? It comes quite fast even not proxied, and is hard to deal with without enough units.
I really like the guide though, since I like fast nexus builds, Thanks!
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I know of the build where they go for 2gate ranged goons and force you to throw down ~4 cannons. Usually 3 cannons, with perfect micro on agressor's side, is not enough - goons are capable of killing cannons from a good angle pretty fast, and most of the zealots end up dying to buy time for the cannons.
If they forced enough cannons, they can expand after ~6 goons; with all the probe cut and necessity to "defend against everything because you are blind", it can be an even game.
Now, more interesting choice includes a proxy robo right outside your nat, and reaver crawl with a battery right there.goon number advantage doesn't really matter much in small passages vs a contain and a reaver, and necessity to both get a lot of goons fast and a range(or a ton of cannons) can delay robo, since your gas is slowed down.
First response I see nearly every time I try this build on high ranks. Second, I saw only once, and it worked pretty good - opponent cut a lot of probes, though, so it was totally allin.
On ranks below B- opponents have tried to go for a 2gate zealot-> nexus, or adding proxy gates for 2 or 4 gate zealot attack. Needless to say, against the first I did not even need to cut probes, against second I've cut probes and added a battery for an easy win.
Also, I prefer going for gate -> pylon -> gate. I feel it's stronger economicaly, steel can put pressure on the 1gate opponent, and survives rushes all the same. Unlike the fast expo in PvT, where you need goons out asap for the vulture(s)/scvs/rines are killing the probes, dancing around enemy zealots for extra 15 seconds because they have one more unit, isn't that hard.
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United States10774 Posts
On January 02 2011 04:35 J.Dong wrote:
What if they go 3 gate all-in zealot? The opponent would know you have slow tech and will be able to overwhelm with all-in zealots? It comes quite fast even not proxied, and is hard to deal with without enough units.
I really like the guide though, since I like fast nexus builds, Thanks!
if you watch the replays one of my opponents actually goes 3 gate zealots
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EPT
