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On July 26 2010 10:59 OneOther wrote:
I will be honest and say that I have never encountered the 9/9 proxy gate. I am not sure how timings exactly work out, but I'd be glad to try it out with whoever wants to. It seems pretty obvious that I would have to either cancel (if I scout on time) or sacrifice my expo, and just try to pump as many probes as possible while holding the ramp.
I'm not saying this is a bad build, in fact I think it's an excellent build. But it's like a 12-nex against Terran or a 12-hatch against zerg, or a 14CC against anything... they die to early game cheese.
Thus I think this is a build to definitely learn and put into a repertoire, but for people like me who love to play standard against D/D- blowhards who in-base proxy every single game, I don't dare use this build... at least not until (if I ever) get to C. :p
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United States10774 Posts
On July 26 2010 11:03 Muirhead wrote:
I think the point is that you can't hold your ramp TT
He'll have zealots walking around in your main long before you get your first zealot out
He won't even do any damage to your warping in nat and will just runby to kill the probes
Like in PvT a bbsing terran will bunker rush the main and not the nat if facing a 12 nex
Yes, I understand that. But at that point I would know that all I have to do is defend the rush to get and advantage and win. I'd pull as many as 5 probes to defend the rush after cancelling my natural Nexus. From then, he will have extra zealots faster than I will but it just takes one good surround or one bad micro on his part. Again, I would have to play against this to know the specific zealot timings. I just don't think it's as much of an automatic loss as you guys are making it out to be.
@ love1another: thanks, man! You should definitely try this build out on maps like Fighting Spirit, where in-base or hardcore 9/9 proxies are much more rare. Players at lower level will not know how to respond and panic. You will have a lot of fun with this build 
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On July 26 2010 11:07 love1another wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 10:59 OneOther wrote:
I will be honest and say that I have never encountered the 9/9 proxy gate. I am not sure how timings exactly work out, but I'd be glad to try it out with whoever wants to. It seems pretty obvious that I would have to either cancel (if I scout on time) or sacrifice my expo, and just try to pump as many probes as possible while holding the ramp. I'm not saying this is a bad build, in fact I think it's an excellent build. But it's like a 12-nex against Terran or a 12-hatch against zerg, or a 14CC against anything... they die to early game cheese. Thus I think this is a build to definitely learn and put into a repertoire, but for people like me who love to play standard against D/D- blowhards who in-base proxy every single game, I don't dare use this build... at least not until (if I ever) get to C. :p
I guess the strength of this build depends on how many fundamentally unscoutable cheeses can be employed against it. Like if there are 3 things the opponent can do to all-in and it's fundamentally impossible to do anything but blindly defend against one of them, you'll have a 1/3 chance to win. The fact that pros have tried to but don't currently employ this strat makes me think they view it as something that is strong with sufficient information but fundamentally too blind. Of course, opinions of the build may change if pros explore it more on modern, extremely defensive maps like Fighting Spirit.
EDIT: Fundamentally. By the way I'm a UNC student so you'll have to excuse the hostility 
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United States10774 Posts
Hmm I am not even really sure what you mean. Every build has a counter build that it's weak against. This FE is no exception. But if you know your opponent's playstyle or are playing on a certain map as Fighting Spirit, there's a really high chance that you won't get hardcore proxy rushed. The build can adapt to just about everything except the hardcore proxy rush.
Are you trying to prove that this build is not perfect? I mean, I already knew that. Every type of economic build has weaknesses against an all-in proxy build. The important reason why I like this build is that reward is usually much higher than the risk involved, especially on modern maps e.g. FS.
EDIT: I also think this is not all that risky or blind. You scout pretty fast, and if you are wary of a proxy, you should always scout the middle. You CAN adapt to early all-ins. Lastly, how was NIT last year?
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On July 26 2010 11:14 Muirhead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 11:07 love1another wrote:On July 26 2010 10:59 OneOther wrote:
I will be honest and say that I have never encountered the 9/9 proxy gate. I am not sure how timings exactly work out, but I'd be glad to try it out with whoever wants to. It seems pretty obvious that I would have to either cancel (if I scout on time) or sacrifice my expo, and just try to pump as many probes as possible while holding the ramp. I'm not saying this is a bad build, in fact I think it's an excellent build. But it's like a 12-nex against Terran or a 12-hatch against zerg, or a 14CC against anything... they die to early game cheese. Thus I think this is a build to definitely learn and put into a repertoire, but for people like me who love to play standard against D/D- blowhards who in-base proxy every single game, I don't dare use this build... at least not until (if I ever) get to C. :p I guess the strength of this build depends on how many fundamentally unscoutable cheeses can be employed against it. Like if there are 3 things the opponent can do to all-in and it's fundamentally impossible to do anything but blindly defend against one of them, you'll have a 1/3 chance to win. The fact that pros have tried to but don't currently employ this strat makes me think they view it as something that is strong with sufficient information but fundamentally too blind. Of course, opinions of the build may change if pros explore it more on modern, extremely defensive maps like Fighting Spirit. EDIT: Fundamentally. By the way I'm a UNC student so you'll have to excuse the hostility
Your logic is sound, but clearly a lot of pros don't see it this way. For example protoss FE against zerg 9-pool speed is a build that puts the p economically ahead in any situation if the protoss can successfully scout. Unfortunately, between the time that zerglings get speed and the corsair comes out, an equally skilled zerg player can completely deny scouting information, during which time Zerg has a plethora of options with which to all-in, and P can do nothing but guess.
Again, by this logic, P has a < 1/3 chance of coming out ahead, but yet the FE is still 100% standard.
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Yeah I mean it's clearly a really awesome build if it can scout and defend everything but blind proxies 
Against an unprepared player it sounds really good too.
But I am wondering what kind of all-ins a standard opening can transition to against this. I have no doubt anything is defendable if it can be scouted, but I guess the question is whether pros could find a way to consistently deny scouting, after opening standard, and pick from enough different cheeses that you can't defend against all of them. No way to know unless people try!
With Zs it is possible to place enough cannons in enough places to completely defend against everything, or at least maintain a good winning percentage. That may put you slightly behind against standard play, so again pros sometimes get greedy in the hopes that their opponent would cheese them in a certain way and not another. But all-in-all, if protoss randomly chooses where to build cannons and Zs randomly choose whether to cheese or not, P gets at least as much shot of winning as if he did something 1 base. I don't know whether that's true for PvP.
And I left UNC the year the won the NC and entered the year they won the NC, so I guess they need me!
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The whole idea of the 5 zealots is to guarantee scouting information during that vulnerable period where the FE usually has to give up map control. I think OneOther's evaluation is sound. This is an extremeley strong build if you can get past the early proxy-rush.
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I understand the zeals provide scouting, but I'm not sure that an optimally reacting protoss who carefully studied this build would give away too much to them.
No way to know but to have high level players try!
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This actually worked aha. i got a buddy that whenever i play PvP with, i usually go two gate robo and its really close, about fifty fifty. but i destroyed him when i did this xD
jsut wondering. does this work for SC2 at all, do you have a similar build?
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If your opponent FE if he sees your expo. And then take a third much faster by faking tech. That would be hilarious
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LOL you had a great response to my question earlier, and ive actually started using your build as my main build, works great ^^ thanks so much
but just for the sake of having fun, what if he elevators like 6 goons in >: (
then you are in BIG trouble LOL
because your cannons will be in your nat..your main is wide open :D, youll have maybe a couple goons vs like 6 goons and a reaver T_T"
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On July 26 2010 16:22 shinjin wrote:
LOL you had a great response to my question earlier, and ive actually started using your build as my main build, works great ^^ thanks so much
but just for the sake of having fun, what if he elevators like 6 goons in >: (
then you are in BIG trouble LOL
because your cannons will be in your nat..your main is wide open :D, youll have maybe a couple goons vs like 6 goons and a reaver T_T"
probably use pylons to keep an eye on the edges of your base and stop the elevator before he gets too many goons up.
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Unless you rely really heavily on cannons, by the time the opponent has a shuttle to elevator you should have enough units to defend.
I'd worry more about stuff like early dragoons --> force cannons + contain --> Reavers, since you have to push out and claim some space before Reavers arrive to fight them properly. Although according to Frozen you can get enough units.
Anyway I've had some success with ZZnexZgasZcoreZ. I'm still not sure how the two builds compare, but the principle is similar.
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United States10774 Posts
On July 26 2010 20:18 Severedevil wrote:
Unless you rely really heavily on cannons, by the time the opponent has a shuttle to elevator you should have enough units to defend.
I'd worry more about stuff like early dragoons --> force cannons + contain --> Reavers, since you have to push out and claim some space before Reavers arrive to fight them properly. Although according to Frozen you can get enough units.
Anyway I've had some success with ZZnexZgasZcoreZ. I'm still not sure how the two builds compare, but the principle is similar.
Yeah, you can. I can go into more specifics of how to defend versus goon/reaver timing attacks if more people want. It isn't too difficult.
ZZnexZgas off how many gates? One or two? If it's two, it sounds like a decent build, but one gate is not good. Although I don't know why you wouldn't just FE :o
And yeah, you are right about having enough units for an elevator drop. Having pylons around edges is critical as well. This should be obvious to many of you but the fewer cannons you build, the better it is. I usually build around two, or three if I HAVE to.
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What do you lose to the most, when doing this?
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The guide is sorely missing timings...so here they are (roughly):
1) mass unit from 12nexus
12nexus-scout, 12gate
1zealot done ~3:05
3z 3:30
5z 4:00
30psi gas+core.
Possible to cut probes here and get another 2zealots+2gates before building 2 goons. Then 4x goons
If so timing=
4:30 7z
5:05 7z/2g
5:40 6g/7z
2) cannon from 12nexus, if make forge right after 5zealots ~28psi, cannons complete ~4:45...around the time range goons will attack from 10/15
3)proxy 9/9 crossmap on FS
1z done 2:20 Can attack FE players probes before zealot is out.
2nd zealot in base before 3:05...before 1zealot is out.
3rd zealot in base ~3:10, 20seconds before zealots #2-3 are out.
6 zealots in base before #4-5zealots out of 12/14gates.
4) 10/15 gates
1g done ~3:15
3g 3:45
5g 4:15 ~4:45 attack with range
7g 4:45
9g 5:15
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Conclusions:
1) vs 10/15 FE should go cannons so it does not end up in a situation where it are facing range goons with no goons. And in a situation where it has 2goons no range vs 5-7goons with range. Going forge asap after 5zealots means cannons can complete roughly in time for range. But, goons can focus fire down cannons which means mass cannon is needed. Hard to tell what this comes out as if mass cannons survive. I'm not sure about the reaver timing off of 10/15 vs FE, that, expand, and dt drop are only decent options. Other issues include 3goons vs zealots before cannons are up. If you see 10/15 might want to only go 3zealots.
2) vs 9/9 proxy is very rough.
However, lets say the fe player scouts proxy in middle they cancel nexus fast and lay down another 2gates asap ~14psi. They will be way behind for the first 3 zealots, but will quickly catch up assuming they can afford zealots with probes getting killed.
3) I did not include timings for z-nexus or zznexus, but these builds can deal with the first 5zealots from FE fine. zznexus can have 5out from 1gate before the 5 from FE arrive. znexus might want to put another gateway down before gas. In any case, these builds are similar to FE, they do not have the paused probe production at 12 and 17waiting for pylon, may be able to kill some probes with early zealot harass, but it also have later nexus. Whatever game plan each player goes for next will make the game.
My first post stands, FE has issues with proxy and 10/15, while a 1gate player is often able to scout FE and respond such as to not be behind significantly (1gate zealot then 1-2zealots to expand). FE variations in pvp are interesting and happen to be especially strong due to people not knowing how to react vs them, but I would not make them your goto (standard) build.
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United States10774 Posts
Thanks for your good work on finding out the timings :D The reason why I didn't include timings is because it's much better to learn how the build works by feel and experience, not by numbers on paper. As many of us know, StarCraft isn't a simple game that you can just figure out a build by memorizing things. There are just too many variables and variations.
However, I don't see a problem making this your goto build on maps like FS. Why not? You are not going to choose this build because you are afraid a 9/9 hardcore proxy and a 10/15 gate rush? That sounds pretty unreasonable to me, as both of them are not common openers on Fighting Spirit. By go-to build I mean you should mix it in your play often, not do it everytime. (of course)
Yes, this build has vulnerabilities against 9/9 gate. But as I explained, reward is often much greater than the risk.
As for 10/15 gate rush, I will leave it up to people to decide. I am confident I can stop this rush. And besides, how often do you run into 10/15 gate on Fighting Spirit PvP?
Also, what one gate response are we talking about? This FE build is the best against one-gate type openers. Which directly relates to why it's strong on four-player maps.
EDIT: One important part I forgot to mention is to vary up your builds and playstyles no matter what matchup or map it is. If you like to play against a specific person, mix-up your builds so he thinks twice before doing 9/9 proxy rush in order to kill your FE.
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United States10774 Posts
Pretty crazy to still receive PMs regarding this strategy. Good to see people are still playing BW and trying new things. As always, feel free to send me any questions
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ofcourse people are still playing BW and trying _NNEEWW_ things.
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I made this my PvP standard when it was first published. Went to a little sc1 lan/tourney right before the release of SC2 and this build clowned on fools. Got myself a free copy of sc2 ^^ bigs ups OO
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EPT
