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Im having a huge problem in my TvZ matchup when the zerg goes 2 hatch lurker drops. I know the basic idea is for me to keep my units at home. Supposedely, this is a huge eco hit on the zerg which doens't make much sense to me since it only costs like 300 min and 300 gas altogether for overlord speed and dropship ability(idk what i't's called lol)
First of all, its hard to even tell if the zerg is gonna try to break ur front with lurker+ling or if he will do some lurker drops. i keep 2-3 scvs around the perimeter of my base to see if a drops coming, but its still hard to tell. That's why Im afraid to even opt for a contain against two hatch lurker in general cuz if he goes drop then i will only have about 6 marines against his drop of 4 lurkers which will get raped, and my scvs will get raped also because my main army will arive too late.
The second problem I have is where to keep my units. When zerg overlords are coming, I usually have about 16ish marines at this point and idk where i should commit more marines to. I always think that i put more marines in my natural since if the zerg does try to break my front with lurker + ling and doensn't drop, I need most of my army in my natural + bunkers to defend against it. However, If i have marines in my main because i thought he was going lurker drop, he will break my front and i will lose. However, if the opposite happens and i have less marines in my main and most of em in my natural, if he drops Im screwed.
Third problem is if zerg dual drops both main and natural, aiming to kill scvs. The obvious answer is to keep units near scvs in both main and natural, but again, the thing that makes me nervous is the possibility of him trying to break my natural with ling + lurker. The natural is the big problem with lurkers since its really cramped and its hard to fight the lurkers unless i already had marines in the mineral line. So basically the only way to be perfectly safe from drops is units in main and units in natural min line, but then i am defenseless against a ling+lurker break.
Plus, how do i even move out for a push since he can always drop and try to kill workers with lurkers during my 3 tank 1 vessel timing push. I need units at home to defend this but the more units at home, the weaker my push is.
I have no idea what to do against this build. I seriously lose to D players if they use this build and I play at C/C+ level. Advice please, and if anyone has some decently high level replays/ VODS of defending against drops, it would help a lot.
Here's my most recent replay of me going against this build.
![[image loading]](http://www.repdepot.net/img/thumbs/35861.jpg)
(wtf repdepot says I won, I swear I lost trust me)
Here i thought the zerg was going 2 hatch muta, since he didn't make anything before his lair finished, but he actually put the hydra den in natural, that's why i was going 4 rax and cancelled. I went for a contain since i guessed that this would be a normal lurker+ling break. when i realized he was going drops, i ran back my units home to defend and used my reinforcements to take care of lurkers in natural, but the natural lurkers got like 9 kills while the lurkers in main got 11. I cleaned this up, but he constantly dual dropped and killed so many scvs to the point where my eco was horrible.
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well after you know he had drop and lurkers why did u not just make a wraith to stop drops you were waiting for the SV and had a starport not doing anything make a wraith and kill the ovielord before it drops. Idk though i am a zerg player but if i saw a t get wraiths i would pull back.
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Just so you know, +1 armor helps alot against lurkers.
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do a better job of scouting. use both scans to figure out for sure if its mutas or lurkers. look at the drone count to determine how many lings your opponent has as well as try to figure out if he is taking a third or not. from this information you can figure out where to place your bunkers. even if unsure of drop you can place a bunker behind your mineral line in your main for defense if you see very all in play. also.. 4 rax is really bad against 2 hatch lurker because of such a late tank. i would suggest getting that faster factory instead.. once again decision based on your scouting. hope that helped a bit.
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On June 14 2010 12:51 foppa wrote:
do a better job of scouting. use both scans to figure out for sure if its mutas or lurkers. look at the drone count to determine how many lings your opponent has as well as try to figure out if he is taking a third or not. from this information you can figure out where to place your bunkers. even if unsure of drop you can place a bunker behind your mineral line in your main for defense if you see very all in play. also.. 4 rax is really bad against 2 hatch lurker because of such a late tank. i would suggest getting that faster factory instead.. once again decision based on your scouting. hope that helped a bit.
Did u just ignore everything i wrote.....
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First of all, realize how all in this is. 350 gas invested so early (zergs though usually go for just the drop, which is just 200 gas) is so insanely huge. Going 2 hatch, the timing on this will be early, so getting enough gas for all this and lurker tech, and the actual lurkers cuts into your economy so bad that if you don't deal huge amounts of damage, you're dead.
Okay, watched the rep, now the 3 lurkers he dropped are dead, but you're hugely behind. The reason for this is 2 things:
1. Bad control. The 2 lurkers dropped in you nat could easily have been killed. You were moving at the before they were even dropped. Just stim, get close, a move, and they will die immidiately. It looked like you just attack moved against them, which caused your marines to fuck up, and you lost way too much. The one in the main could have been killed way faster with better multitasking.
2. DON'T TRY TO BLINDCOUNTER! IT'S BAD! As you said yourself, you thought he was going for 2hat muta, so you went 4 rax, which is good against 2hat mut, but fucking horrible against 2hat lurkers. If you'd played to what he could have done, and just pumped units from 3 rax, getting factory as soon as you scouted what he was doing, you'd been in perfect shape, killing his drop easily.
His play was a very economic way to go lurker drops, and therefor, it wasn't supposed to do as much damage as it did. Clean up your play for the above mentioned mistakes, and you'll kill this easily.
Edit: Checked the rest of the game. The way you can actually move out against this, is to place turrets in your perimeter, and be ready for it. When he dropped you the second time, you did not even haven depots spotting your perimeter, and his lurkers did absurd ammounts of damage. Game is now at 10 minutes or so, and you're clearly dead. Zerg is on 3 bases, full map control, 59 vs. your 35 suply, gg.
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i usually place my first bunker at the nat in a way so that the back area of my natural minerals are covered to prevent lurkdrop. for example, on python 12 o clock, id place the bunker btw the cc and gas geyer. There are a couple reasons i do this:
1 - already got marines blocking ramp, so if i see ling allin, i pull scvs to stop it.
2 - if you build a supply depot under the bunker, then lings can only hit it from the top, but ur scvs are there to block/repair on the top = they cant do annoying shit with lings in the far corner of ur nat.
3 - it prevents lurker bullshit where they sneak 1-2 lurks, either by running while ur distracted or by drop, in the back to snipe scvs cuz u dont get bunker coverage there.
personally, when i suspect a lurker drop, i take ur idea of putting scvs in the perimeter of the base to the next level: camp an scv in the low ground where they are likely to load their shit. ive caught lurkers/eggs camping there several times, so its really easy to tell since they want to minimize the time of slow overlord movement.
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against a 2 hatch lurker, you need 2 bunkers pronto. 1 bunker won't hold from most of what I've seen.
2cm drops (idk but that's the official name for the build) are kind of all in, as if it is scouted (and the terran has experience), this build will fail.
personally, when i suspect a lurker drop, i take ur idea of putting scvs in the perimeter of the base to the next level: camp an scv in the low ground where they are likely to load their shit. ive caught lurkers/eggs camping there several times, so its really easy to tell since they want to minimize the time of slow overlord movement.
Study timings for lurkers, I wouldn't prefer just camping a scv there, as a lot of mining time may be deducted, a more useful way is to "patrol it," manually moving it around possible places. You may build a supply depot on the high ground as well, as slow overlords will give you enough time for marines to get there. Spread your depots around the map.
Better micro may have also made a difference.
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So should i not even opt for a contain against 2 hatch lurk since i have to be home just in case he decides to go drops?
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You never contain vs 2 hatch lurker. The build is aimed to kill you, just play safe.
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Yeah, if you try to contain zerg going lurks, he'll just run over your mm with very few units. Remember that 2 hatch lurk can also be used, sometimes, to double expand to 4 gas, in which case if you've delayed tank/vessel and haven't put pressure on zerg, you'll be outmacroed in the mid-to-late game
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Yea that's one of the reasons I move out for 2 hatch or 3 hatch lurker, to delay/deny his third gas expansion. If i just stay in my base against 2 hatch lurker like u guys said, wouldn't I just get contained and he can expand as much as he wants?
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First off- you are not a C/C+ player if a D zerg is beating you in a zvt.
Secondly- just pull back and take it safe. If you defend the drop well, you will win. So keep a group or two of m+m back at your base, and dont be aggressive.
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I play C level... llurker drop is the only thing i can't play agasint, 3 hatch lurker muta and 2 hatch muta I can beat. Mostly because i only played against drops about 3 times in my life
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once again- keep a group of M+M up in pyour main, make three bunkers at your nat, and place marines in bunkers. Wait. Move out with first vessel, win. You have comstat- if you see a den and no spire, you know it's lurks. so im confused....
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well you can pull scvs fast nuff shouldnt do anydamage
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On June 15 2010 07:54 FlameSworD wrote:
well you can pull scvs fast nuff shouldnt do anydamage
umm...
Pull away SCVs or Pull off scvs?
I'm pretty sure I'm not going to scan and then 1a2a my scvs to kill lurkers...
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if you see lurker first (instead of spire), you mech. the mines makes lurker//ling almost impossible to walk around, unless they get ov speed. even then its so slowed down since the unburrowing/burrowing part of the push. lurkers can't really touch mech without swarm, and even then it gets hard since tanks get to critical mass by then.
usually z will make 2 lurks and maybe 1 sunk to get a quick ramped expo, and fast tank just shreads this defense because there are no lurkers to deal with the tanks. tanks dont even need to be sieged to outrange lurks if there are no sunks
even if u biovulture its pretty good because you can run fast armored vultures can distract and behind the lurks while m&m hit from front.
also you never reacted to his initial lurker drop. put a bunk in your min lines. its 200mins , and maybe you didn't thnik they'd drop again but remember that they are basically doing an all-in and will most likely continue if they didn't do satisfactory damage
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On June 15 2010 12:46 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
if you see lurker first (instead of spire), you mech. the mines makes lurker//ling almost impossible to walk around, unless they get ov speed. even then its so slowed down since the unburrowing/burrowing part of the push. lurkers can't really touch mech without swarm, and even then it gets hard since tanks get to critical mass by then.
usually z will make 2 lurks and maybe 1 sunk to get a quick ramped expo, and fast tank just shreads this defense because there are no lurkers to deal with the tanks. tanks dont even need to be sieged to outrange lurks if there are no sunks
even if u biovulture its pretty good because you can run fast armored vultures can distract and behind the lurks while m&m hit from front.
also you never reacted to his initial lurker drop. put a bunk in your min lines. its 200mins , and maybe you didn't thnik they'd drop again but remember that they are basically doing an all-in and will most likely continue if they didn't do satisfactory damage
Umm not be a jerk, but your advice is freaking horrible. First of all you decide in the BEGINNING of the game if ur going mech or bio. You can't start of bio and then realize like 5 min into the game that he's going lurker and suddenly change to mech. A ramped expo, really? The zergs u play must be retarded to not expand in the natural. And mines are good for defending against lurkers and lings, but there is no way ur going to be able to push without at least 2 tanks. Biovulture is the wtf worst idea ever, ur better off using scvs to try luring away lurker spines. You only use mines late game tvz to defend when using skterran.
And please dont post advice like this if it was never successful for you in at least C- games. Dont just blurt out anything that comes to mind
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yep just attack the lurkers with your scvs they have 60 hp l;
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Hi Gumper.
Zerg can do alot of different 2hatch openings and it's hard to play against if you don't know what you're looking for. There are some different things you can notice in order to understand what build he uses.
The 2hatch lurker openings he can do, opening with a 12hatch, are generally these:
- All in zergling speed + lurkers at your front.
- Lurker drop from 2 hatch, not as all in but pretty much.
- 2hatch lurker into fast third hatchery on a new main location in order to quickly secure a third gas and then tech to hive into lategame.
The first thing you need to know in order to counter these things is to know whats coming.
The answer is SCVscout and scans.
With the scv you're looking for his gas timing in the main.
If you're not able to scout his base before he's already put up the gas, you either need to scout faster next time, or judge from the healthbar of the pool + gas to know when he placed it. You can learn this by trying it on singleplayer.
Each number represents the strategy from above:
- He takes gas same time as spawningpool.
He need alot of gas quick, because the faster the better this build is. He needs lair, lingspeed and lurker upgrade ASAP.
- He takes gas same time as spawningpool.
Researching lurkers and drop, plus eventually overlord speed later on takes alot of gas.
- The gas goes up when the pool is 50% finnished.
This will give him exactly 300 minerals before he can start his lurker upgrade if he upgrades lair when he has 100 gas in the first place. The third hatch will generally be placed at a new main in order to get a fourth gas as soon as he gets defilers. He will not be offensive for a while with this strategy.
So if he takes gas when pool is 50% you know that you don't need to play very safe with bunkers etc but rather preassure him early.
If the gas goes up at the same time as the pool you have narrowed it down to two different options, based on that he uses lurkers ofcourse.
The way to sort this out is to keep the scv alive longer or scan him asap.
What you're looking for now is his gas in the expansion.
- He only mines minerals from his expanison. No gas going up.
Since this build is zergling heavy he will only use the gas in his main to make lurkers. This will give him enough lurkers for a bust at your natural and at the same time provide him with enough money so that he can make alot of zerglings. And he will not need that many drones so the attack can come faster.
- He takes his gas in the expansion shortly after upgrading lair.
This build is very gas heavy and he will ned alot of gas, however he will not need as many minerals that fast because the threat will not appear until his overlord transport upgrade is finnished anyway.
The way to deal with the strategies are following:
- Make 3 bunkers at your front.
Pretty easy to counter if you know its coming.
- You need to make a bunker in the front and one in your main.
Have 4 marines in the bunker in your main and keep you units in your natural but not in the bunker.
Place turrets or suplydepots at the outer ends of your base in order to quickly spot any overlords and then react fast with your units at your natural. The bunker will buy enough time for you to move there.
Add another factory after making the starport, if you chose not to place an early refinary in your natural you could make a dropship before making the first vessel.
Keep making tank until vessel is out and then scan his main. If he upgrades hive, move out. If not, wait for a second vessel and move out.
Keep the marines in the bunker when you move out, you will not need all your marines because zerg has fewer units aswell because of all the upgrades.
Sometimes, if he wait for you to move out and then go for an all-in drop there might bre an eliminationrace. Just make sure to go for his main and that you move out before he gets his hive. If he uses alot of lurkers to drop you at this stage he will have too few units to stop your push and he won't be bale to kill you even if he kills all your reinforcing tanks+marines becuase in the worst case scenario you can just lift off and kill him with your big army.
- Preassure him early on when you have 1 medic 1 firebat or 2medics 2 firebats.
Make sure to place buildings in you expansion so you can defend a backstab of zerglings and be ready to pull scvs from natural to your main in order to block the ramp. Make a bunker as soon as the medics are finnished so it will be ready once you move out.
Once you move out, use 2 scvs to scout on different locations aswell in order to find his expansion as quick as possible.
Sometimes you'll be able to finnish him off if he doesn't make enough sunkens, otherwise you might be able to take out his third base before lukers are finnished.
If this fails, play as normal making the push when your first vessel pops out. Make a timed attack on his natural expansion while you add another starport going into SKterran mode.
Keep preassuring him to force him into a defensive mode because he will not have any true armysize until he gets ultralisks wich will be his main goal using this strategy.
Shortly after you've gone SKterran you should be able to take a third base and keep the preassure up and mix in some dropships.
You might not be able to stop him from taking a forth base, if that happens, take a fourth expansion at another main location with 3 scvs and a group of m&m. Use 1 scv to make a command center and two scvs to make factories there while you start pumping tanks at home to transition into a heavy tank defense in order to get your tankcount up to face his ultralisks which will enevitably come.
Good luck.
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Agree with the person that said just make a wraith... The zerg relies on the simultaneous drop of your main and your natural; turret up your natural to at least give you instant awareness so you can pull your scvs if he does manage to drop, then just concentrate on killing the units off in your main and then regaining your natural. Play very defensively, at least 2 bunkers at your choke, and when you can afford to stop making vessels, make a dropship so you can easily kill off expos as soon as he throws one down. You can have a dropship on the patrol just looking to shut them down asap. If he doesn't expo in a timely fashion, you know he has to go all-in to win, so you just keep your units concentrated in your main.
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On June 16 2010 09:23 StylishVODs wrote:Hi Gumper.Zerg can do alot of different 2hatch openings and it's hard to play against if you don't know what you're looking for. There are some different things you can notice in order to understand what build he uses. The 2hatch lurker openings he can do, opening with a 12hatch, are generally these: - All in zergling speed + lurkers at your front.
- Lurker drop from 2 hatch, not as all in but pretty much.
- 2hatch lurker into fast third hatchery on a new main location in order to quickly secure a third gas and then tech to hive into lategame.
The first thing you need to know in order to counter these things is to know whats coming. The answer is SCVscout and scans. With the scv you're looking for his gas timing in the main.If you're not able to scout his base before he's already put up the gas, you either need to scout faster next time, or judge from the healthbar of the pool + gas to know when he placed it. You can learn this by trying it on singleplayer. Each number represents the strategy from above: - He takes gas same time as spawningpool.
He need alot of gas quick, because the faster the better this build is. He needs lair, lingspeed and lurker upgrade ASAP.
- He takes gas same time as spawningpool.
Researching lurkers and drop, plus eventually overlord speed later on takes alot of gas.
- The gas goes up when the pool is 50% finnished.
This will give him exactly 300 minerals before he can start his lurker upgrade if he upgrades lair when he has 100 gas in the first place. The third hatch will generally be placed at a new main in order to get a fourth gas as soon as he gets defilers. He will not be offensive for a while with this strategy.
So if he takes gas when pool is 50% you know that you don't need to play very safe with bunkers etc but rather preassure him early. If the gas goes up at the same time as the pool you have narrowed it down to two different options, based on that he uses lurkers ofcourse. The way to sort this out is to keep the scv alive longer or scan him asap. What you're looking for now is his gas in the expansion.- He only mines minerals from his expanison. No gas going up.
Since this build is zergling heavy he will only use the gas in his main to make lurkers. This will give him enough lurkers for a bust at your natural and at the same time provide him with enough money so that he can make alot of zerglings. And he will not need that many drones so the attack can come faster.
- He takes his gas in the expansion shortly after upgrading lair.
This build is very gas heavy and he will ned alot of gas, however he will not need as many minerals that fast because the threat will not appear until his overlord transport upgrade is finnished anyway.
The way to deal with the strategies are following: - Make 3 bunkers at your front.
Pretty easy to counter if you know its coming.
- You need to make a bunker in the front and one in your main.
Have 4 marines in the bunker in your main and keep you units in your natural but not in the bunker.
Place turrets or suplydepots at the outer ends of your base in order to quickly spot any overlords and then react fast with your units at your natural. The bunker will buy enough time for you to move there.
Add another factory after making the starport, if you chose not to place an early refinary in your natural you could make a dropship before making the first vessel.
Keep making tank until vessel is out and then scan his main. If he upgrades hive, move out. If not, wait for a second vessel and move out.
Keep the marines in the bunker when you move out, you will not need all your marines because zerg has fewer units aswell because of all the upgrades.
Sometimes, if he wait for you to move out and then go for an all-in drop there might bre an eliminationrace. Just make sure to go for his main and that you move out before he gets his hive. If he uses alot of lurkers to drop you at this stage he will have too few units to stop your push and he won't be bale to kill you even if he kills all your reinforcing tanks+marines becuase in the worst case scenario you can just lift off and kill him with your big army.
- Preassure him early on when you have 1 medic 1 firebat or 2medics 2 firebats.
Make sure to place buildings in you expansion so you can defend a backstab of zerglings and be ready to pull scvs from natural to your main in order to block the ramp. Make a bunker as soon as the medics are finnished so it will be ready once you move out.
Once you move out, use 2 scvs to scout on different locations aswell in order to find his expansion as quick as possible.
Sometimes you'll be able to finnish him off if he doesn't make enough sunkens, otherwise you might be able to take out his third base before lukers are finnished.
If this fails, play as normal making the push when your first vessel pops out. Make a timed attack on his natural expansion while you add another starport going into SKterran mode.
Keep preassuring him to force him into a defensive mode because he will not have any true armysize until he gets ultralisks wich will be his main goal using this strategy.
Shortly after you've gone SKterran you should be able to take a third base and keep the preassure up and mix in some dropships.
You might not be able to stop him from taking a forth base, if that happens, take a fourth expansion at another main location with 3 scvs and a group of m&m. Use 1 scv to make a command center and two scvs to make factories there while you start pumping tanks at home to transition into a heavy tank defense in order to get your tankcount up to face his ultralisks which will enevitably come.
Good luck.
Where should I place my bunker in my main? I usually place one near my CC so it can cover my scvs but then the supply depots are in trouble. And also what happens if he does a dual drop on both my main and natural? Cleaning up the lurkers in the natural is really hard since the lurkers are behind the mineral line, and since its cramped, the marines get slaughtered since they will go in a line.(assume Fighting Spirit)
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EPT
