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On June 29 2009 22:55 Shikyo wrote:
Also, rekrul's last post is just about how it should be. Stupid rules should NEVER, EVER, EVER be more important than common sense.
I agree, because stupid rules beating common sense is how the whole "ppp" thing happened.
Strelok is right to be annoyed that a decision was changed, however he is wrong to think he deserved to replay Game 1, or auto-win Game 2 unless he was rolling all over Fenix with a massive army and huge economy that could not possibly lose to a micro slip during a heated battle.
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On June 30 2009 00:56 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote:
If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed.
If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament.
. TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~
TSL was the best thought out and run foreign StarCraft Broodwar tournament ever, and probably the best there will ever be.
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Osaka27156 Posts
On June 30 2009 15:05 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 00:56 Kennigit wrote:On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote:
If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed.
If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament.
. TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~ TSL was the best thought out and run foreign StarCraft Broodwar tournament ever, and probably the best there will ever be.
PREACH IT BROTHER!
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On June 30 2009 14:32 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 13:28 Lamprey wrote:
Makes perfect sense why it should be 1-1 and even 0-0 sort of makes sense. Strelok had an advantage in game 2 and Fenix D/Cs. Maybe Fenix D/Cs because he is losing? Who knows. Regardless, if Strelok had a advantage it is logical that the game should go to him. Thus, 1-1 is plausible. However; 0-0 is essentially the same as 1-1, it is tied but because there was a D/C in game 2 it could make sense to just start over at 0-0 and do a new Bo3 instead of making it 1-1 and having a single deciding game next as game 2 is a bit ambiguous.
Now whether Strelokk had a sizeable advantage or not is what is up for debate and none of us here have any idea if he did or not. It seems that Lipton and SDM felt that he did, but Artosis did not and convinced everyone else that the advantage was not big enough to warrant giving him the game and that it should be replayed.
Then you throw in that SDM and Lipton told Strelok they had ruled in his favor for game 2 and then a few days later the decision is suddenly reversed and yea, you can understand why Strelok would be pissed. To argue that Strelok is trying to cheat or be amoral is simply garbage. You assume so much in your reasoning. SDM was a coach for a progaming team, I would think he would know if the game was favored one way or the other. If he made the final decision ofc. The point is we don't know what happened game 2 so we can't assume why their made their decisions and why they changed.
SDM didn't watch the replay initially, he just said OK to Lipton, so he couldn't have known if Strelok had a winning advantage. Artosis bringing the issue up probably got him to watch the replay, realize it was too close, then call it a regame.
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But can we say that conclusively?
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On June 30 2009 15:05 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 00:56 Kennigit wrote:On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote:
If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed.
If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament.
. TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~ TSL was the best thought out and run foreign StarCraft Broodwar tournament ever, and probably the best there will ever be.
artosis' are better, although less high profile so with less things to potentially go wrong.
nothing can beat having 1 person who knows what theyre doing making all decisions on a case by case basis.
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Braavos36387 Posts
I agree, we could've ran TSL better, and some of the credit for how smoothly and efficiently it ran should go to the players for showing up every time (and thus, by proxy, to the money / prestige that enticed them to show up so consistently). TSL just seems super-efficiently run because its compared to so many foreigner tournaments that end up like train wrecks because of bad admin decisions, no shows, delays, or lack of proper coverage.
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On June 30 2009 15:29 Hot_Bid wrote:
I agree, we could've ran TSL better, and some of the credit for how smoothly and efficiently it ran should go to the players for showing up every time (and thus, by proxy, to the money / prestige that enticed them to show up so consistently). TSL just seems super-efficiently run because its compared to so many foreigner tournaments that end up like train wrecks because of bad admin decisions, no shows, delays, or lack of proper coverage.
It's good to know that you are thinking about improvements for TSL2, whenever that may be.
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In baseball, an umpire's ruling cannot be contested. Merely touching the umpire can have you thrown out of the game.
American football in recent years added the Instant-Replay Challenge for cases when coaches disagree with referees. A team may use a timeout to have a play reviewed immediately after it is called. Once a play has been reviewed, the ruling is final.
I have organized a major tournament, and we (the admins) agreed ahead of time that our referees would have total arbitration. You need to make a decision and move on. You cannot go back in time and nullify all subsequent actions.
The judge is never wrong. A good judge knows he is infallible and sticks to his guns.
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On June 30 2009 15:55 mmp wrote:
In baseball, an umpire's ruling cannot be contested. Merely touching the umpire can have you thrown out of the game.
American football in recent years added the Instant-Replay Challenge for cases when coaches disagree with referees. A team may use a timeout to have a play reviewed immediately after it is called. Once a play has been reviewed, the ruling is final.
I have organized a major tournament, and we (the admins) agreed ahead of time that our referees would have total arbitration. You need to make a decision and move on. You cannot go back in time and nullify all subsequent actions.
The judge is never wrong. A good judge knows he is infallible and sticks to his guns.
Calling Lipton a good judge is questionable.
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Isnt there a website that has all of the vod's of the valor tourney? I know i watched a few matches that way but i dont remember site.
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On June 30 2009 15:55 mmp wrote:
In baseball, an umpire's ruling cannot be contested. Merely touching the umpire can have you thrown out of the game.
American football in recent years added the Instant-Replay Challenge for cases when coaches disagree with referees. A team may use a timeout to have a play reviewed immediately after it is called. Once a play has been reviewed, the ruling is final.
I have organized a major tournament, and we (the admins) agreed ahead of time that our referees would have total arbitration. You need to make a decision and move on. You cannot go back in time and nullify all subsequent actions.
The judge is never wrong. A good judge knows he is infallible and sticks to his guns.
A good judge got at least a knowhow in the game he judges and is not totaly newbish...
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On June 30 2009 15:58 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 15:55 mmp wrote:
In baseball, an umpire's ruling cannot be contested. Merely touching the umpire can have you thrown out of the game.
American football in recent years added the Instant-Replay Challenge for cases when coaches disagree with referees. A team may use a timeout to have a play reviewed immediately after it is called. Once a play has been reviewed, the ruling is final.
I have organized a major tournament, and we (the admins) agreed ahead of time that our referees would have total arbitration. You need to make a decision and move on. You cannot go back in time and nullify all subsequent actions.
The judge is never wrong. A good judge knows he is infallible and sticks to his guns. Calling Lipton a good judge is questionable.
Unfortunately, the tournament needs to have rules and abide by them. If they choose a bad judge then the organizers are to blame, not the players. Regardless, the tournament as a whole must go on.
If both players could agree on an alternate outcome, then there is no problem. If not, then the original ruling should hold. It simply isn't fair to make the original winner risk loss in a rematch.
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On June 30 2009 11:21 ZeitgeistMovie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 10:53 fffff5 wrote:
apparently if you're a teamliquid admin you're allowed to flood the forum with shitty troll posts.
if certain admins of this site didn't have such hubris this community would be so much stronger. You're right but you worded it wrong. They have a strong, but small community. That's what happens when there is social stratification, classes, if you will. It's like the Amish people, every strong and tight-knit, but very small.
hahaha, tl admins aka amish people, sweet.
Anyway, this seems to be dumb arguments by both sides. Everyone saying the decision changed is right, is right... and that is my opinion, but it's also the truth, just as the sky is blue. Streloks entire argument is illogical, "final decision." It was your parents final decision to give birth to you, but your dad could've coathangered your mom because she knew you would come out with down syndrome. (example, not literal I know nothing about you lol) But, regardless, just because YOU went to a LAN doesn't mean VALOR is responsible lol... that's petty as shit.
example: You leave your job and go on vacation without any notice... you come back and you're fired.
Anyway the people arguing for Strelok are mere fanboys and or anti-Media people. I can completely understand the anti-Media movement, but why are you guys trolling about a lost cause? This whole thread is shambles minus rekrul running through it balls deep.
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On June 30 2009 16:18 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 11:21 ZeitgeistMovie wrote:On June 30 2009 10:53 fffff5 wrote:
apparently if you're a teamliquid admin you're allowed to flood the forum with shitty troll posts.
if certain admins of this site didn't have such hubris this community would be so much stronger. You're right but you worded it wrong. They have a strong, but small community. That's what happens when there is social stratification, classes, if you will. It's like the Amish people, every strong and tight-knit, but very small. hahaha, tl admins aka amish people, sweet. Anyway, this seems to be dumb arguments by both sides. Everyone saying the decision changed is right, is right... and that is my opinion, but it's also the truth, just as the sky is blue. Streloks entire argument is illogical, "final decision." It was your parents final decision to give birth to you, but your dad could've coathangered your mom because she knew you would come out with down syndrome. (example, not literal I know nothing about you lol) But, regardless, just because YOU went to a LAN doesn't mean VALOR is responsible lol... that's petty as shit. example: You leave your job and go on vacation without any notice... you come back and you're fired. Anyway the people arguing for Strelok are mere fanboys and or anti-Media people. I can completely understand the anti-Media movement, but why are you guys trolling about a lost cause? This whole thread is shambles minus rekrul running through it balls deep.
Except that Strelok had a really good point - changing a ruling days after they make their "final decision" completely ruins the integrity and fairness of the entire matchup and completely botches the whole thing.
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Lipton shouldn't've been in charge of making any "final" decisions that involve an in-game dispute if he is so ignorant of broodwar. That said, a final decision should be final.
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On June 30 2009 15:23 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 15:05 Zzoram wrote:On June 30 2009 00:56 Kennigit wrote:On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote:
If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed.
If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament.
. TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~ TSL was the best thought out and run foreign StarCraft Broodwar tournament ever, and probably the best there will ever be. artosis' are better, although less high profile so with less things to potentially go wrong. nothing can beat having 1 person who knows what theyre doing making all decisions on a case by case basis.
Artosis' tournaments better than TSL? TSL was competitive, administrated well, and got the whole community involved for both players and spectators which is a whole different level than any of the recent tourneys have accomplished.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
better run, he means, and he's right. you absolutely can't beat an administration that places every decision, case by case, in the hands of someone as capable and passionate as artosis
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After that i went to Moscow to LAN finals for 2 days. I came back and saw the PM with Liptons words that he changes his "final decision" without having no new arguments or reasons.
they didn't change it days after.
Correcting a wrong decision with a right one is the CORRECT thing to do. Valor admins did the right thing. Yes, it makes them look bad because they made the wrong decision in the first place, but that's all.
Like in any sports, if they call a goal, but on later review they determine that it wasn't' a goal, they FIX it. They don't' just let that goal stand.
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integrity? my ass, an entire tournaments integrity isnt at jeopardy because someone cries about a controversial decision in which both sides are wrong, but ultimately one of them makes it right. So you're saying you've never made a mistake and completely reversed it later? Did it take away your integrity? No, really let me know. I want to know how pitiful you are. Integrity, fuck off
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EPT
