I am public person. I have fans, haters, people who just follow my rezults. That's why i feel responsible to make such statement. I got trouble in my match against Fenix in Ro8 Valor. I don't want to explain the details of complaint fully, because i don't want flame war starting. Lipton, the main runner of the tournament got letters from both sides with all their arguments, after what he made "final decision". Fenix didn't like it and refused to accept it and continue series. I talked to Daniel Lee, the organizator of this tournament. He also agreed with my arguments and made his "final decision" which was nearly the same with Liptons one. Sounds very nice and professional, yeah? After that i went to Moscow to LAN finals for 2 days. I came back and saw the PM with Liptons words that he changes his "final decision" without having no new arguments or reasons. You know, i understand when girls in the shop, can't select between 2 dresses and change their decisions many times. But i really can't understand when serious men, professionals, change their decisions, "final decisions" as they call them, for many times. That is why i decided to drop off from the tournament. I drop off not because i think this decision is unfair (even though i think so), i drop because 2 from 3 "big bosses" of the professional tournament changed their final decision without having any new reasons or information in 5 days after making previous one. I feel sorry for people who wanted me to win and for people who just wanted to see good games between me and Fenix. I can only hope you will read my arguments and accept them.
I don't know situation exactly, but it seems you are having your point here - changing decision by admin when one was took already sounds very unprofessional to me as well.
Sad to hear you were dedicated to this tournament but had no chance to proove it in a game.
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: But i really can't understand when serious men, professionals, change their decisions, "final decisions" as they call them, for many times. That is why i decided to drop off from the tournament. I drop off not because i think this decision is unfair (even though i think so), i drop because 2 from 3 "big bosses" of the professional tournament changed their final decision without having any new reasons or information.
Yeah I think it would be hard to find someone who is really a professional admin in the gaming community, most tourney organizers are just amateurs pretending to be professionals. Last year in my country the WCG was cancelled 2-3 days before the final tourney, so yeah, people pretend to be professionals in the gaming community. We got like 3 or 4 cancelled WCGs here so i'ts a common thing.
I'm glad you stick to your principles, I think it's important for top players to do so, it's the only way things will change. I don't know the details of your case but if you are right, then I hope more players also quit, it's just a tourney anyway, there will be many more, but if people just accept crap, then that becomes the standard eventually (like it happened here with WCG, people just accept it and it keeps happening).
Good luck man and if it means anything, I think your attitude towards the game and scene make you an admirable player.
who cares what the debate was about. the point is that when you run a tournament. you dont change your call two days later without some new information like "hack evidence in replay after further analyisis" or something.
Its ridiculous for them to have changed their decision for no good reason after 5 days but to be honest I think you should continue the tournament. You may not like everything that happens to you but why give it all up when you worked so hard to be there? I don't think they should be allowed the ability to dictate whether you play or not. Of course I don't know all the details but I hope you reconsider.
The unprofessional thing was the decision. Fenix approached me and told me what Lipton's decision was, and it was clearly wrong. For this reason I spoke to those in charge and fixed it.
Here's what happened. Game 1: Fenix wins. Game 2: at 15 minutes, the game is very close, and someone disconnects.
Original decision made by admins: "Either replay BOTH games, or be 1-1 and play game 3."
When I heard of this, after watching the replay of game 2, it was clearly wrong. Infact, it might be one of the worst decisions I have EVER seen. For this reason I made a fuss on Fenix's behalf to make sure that the right outcome came out of it. The outcome is obvious. Replay game 2. This is the ONLY way to solve this situation. Personally, I don't care if Lipton, a non-SC player made some shit decision and it got reversed. Its GOOD that it got reversed. Lipton is trying his best, but he doesn't understand competitive SC.
In summary: replay game 2. If you stand against this because an ignorant admin ruled differently at first, then you don't respect Fenix and you don't respect fair play. May the best player win, not the one lucky enough to get a bad admin to make poor decisions in his favor.
The admin did have enough information about this game. If he needed help - he could ask you Artosis, Daniel Lee or any other starcraft man. He decided that his opinion is enough. Daniel Lee watched replays and agreed with his opinion. I would agree with his decision 0-1 and replay second game IF it wasn't made week after but immediatly You, Artosis, probably think you better understand starcraft then me, Daniel Lee and Lipton. It's your right. But you can't agree that people, especially referees, have to respond for their words. Otherwise noone will trust them. As you see, i don't want to prove my point of view about game chances in game 2, simply because i don't want to start flame war, even though i really had better position.
Regardless of situation, admin was in the wrong. If your going to be Running a tournament, and you don't know what your doing talk with someone. Don't just make random decisions and then contradick your own words. Makes you look like an ass and makes the players look like ass'
Strelok, I am as unbiased as a human being can come in SC. I have more love for this game than anyone can imagine. I like you a lot, as you know. My history with Fenix is actually quite poor, he even spam botted vs me in TSL, for anyone who remembers that.
The decision was wrong. It wasn't just wrong. It was extremely unfair. Fenix doesn't deserve to be cheated by a poor decision. The game was too close to give you a win. I am very surprised that you guys didn't just replay it instantly.
Luckily this tournament isn't run by KeSPA. I told Lipton that if anything like this comes up again, to message me. The tournament will be won by the player who plays the best, as all tournaments should be.
If it were a perfect world and all the admins were as knowledgeable as Artosis about the game and how to fairly run a competition then we wouldn't have ever had this problem. Unfortunately an incorrect "final decision" was made. You are down 0-1 in a series and theres a disconnect in game two that's totally even and you want it to become 1-1 or back to 0-0? What kind of world are you living in you retard.
I mean, you almost got lucky. If Artosis didn't fix the situation Fenix would have gotten screwed over (but he still probably would have managed to beat your stupid ass anyways.) But unfortunately for you you didn't get to cheat the system. Boo fucking hoo. Props to Fenix for sticking to his guns and refusing to abide by that "final decision."
People are putting up hard work and money to run a competition and you, as a mere foreign player, disrespect them and your opponent by trying to get a 2nd chance at game 1 or a free win at game 2?
To cry like a little bitch about "IT WAS A FINAL DECISION" is the most pathetic argument I've ever heard in my life.
I mean if you steal a candy bar from a store and get caught by a police officer on your way out do you a. give him the candybar back and he probably gives you a warning or calls your mom. Or do you b. say 'fuck you' and try and eat the candy bar? Thats essentially what you're doing. Not very bright.
I hope your decision to drop out of this tournament is a "FINAL DECISION." No one wants to play with cheaters anyways.
On June 29 2009 21:42 Strelok. wrote: You, Artosis, probably think you better understand starcraft then me, Daniel Lee and Lipton.
What an unfair thing to say.
EDIT: especially since Artosis worked with Daniel Lee at scforall for a period of time.
Uh i think hes mad cause fenix went around the chain of command for dealing with the tournament, and then Artosis bitched out lipton for being an idiot. And forced a change in decision.
(hes not mad @ fenix cause fenix was just doing what he thought was needed to get things right, rather at artosis and lipton)
The only thing that is clear to me is that Lipton shouldn't be the one making these decisions in the first place.
Strelok on the other hand should know that judgement was retarded. If Strelok was clearly winning game 2 then yes 1-1, if not replay it. How should it ever force the series to be replayed or the win given to you? You are a top foreigner who has played in countless tournaments, you know the rules, and are trying to take advantage of a stupid decision made by someone who probably shouldn't be making those decisions. You can argue that going back on the decision made is somehow dishonorable, but trying to take that obvious unfair advantage over your opponent is even more dishonorable because you should know better.
I think unless there was a clear winner for game 2 the game has to be replayed. Comebacks are common in starcraft. Theres no way to tell who the winner is with just a slight advantage. Also the decision to replay the first game makes no sense. Its not like someone disconnected in the first game. I dont understand why you would leave the tournament just for something so small that could be taken care of so easily too.
Sounds like both Daniel Lee and Lipton agreed at first that Strelok hat the advantage in game 2 since the judgement was either 1:1 or take fenix first win away (makes little sense imho).
I guess there is no way the rep of that second game will ever get out to the public huh? It's sad to see a great player drop out of the tournament over something like this.
I dunno, sounds like strelok kind of has a point, he's not saying that anything the referees have said is wrong, just that they went back on their word. By the same token, why leave? Worst case scenario you play fenix and lose... best case, you win the tournament. Strelok is in no way badmouthing sdm or artosis, he's saying they DO know more about starcraft than him, he's just pissed off that they changed their decision. Both sides have fair arguments, but I just think it's a bit stupid to turn around and pull out because of something like this.
On June 29 2009 22:32 nataziel wrote: I dunno, sounds like strelok kind of has a point, he's not saying that anything the referees have said is wrong, just that they went back on their word. By the same token, why leave? Worst case scenario you play fenix and lose... best case, you win the tournament. Strelok is in no way badmouthing sdm or artosis, he's saying they DO know more about starcraft than him, he's just pissed off that they changed their decision. Both sides have fair arguments, but I just think it's a bit stupid to turn around and pull out because of something like this.
No! Actually what he should have done is this! After the disconnect happened said "Well that sucks ok replay gogo."
Thats what a normal person would do.
But instead he chooses to act like a little girl that just got farted on.
On June 29 2009 22:32 nataziel wrote: I dunno, sounds like strelok kind of has a point, he's not saying that anything the referees have said is wrong, just that they went back on their word. By the same token, why leave? Worst case scenario you play fenix and lose... best case, you win the tournament. Strelok is in no way badmouthing sdm or artosis, he's saying they DO know more about starcraft than him, he's just pissed off that they changed their decision. Both sides have fair arguments, but I just think it's a bit stupid to turn around and pull out because of something like this.
Yeah but they aren't changing the decision to one that favors Fenix given the circumstances, they are changing it to the logical decision that would have been made 99% of the time if the tournament admin knew what he was doing in the first place. He doesn't really have a right to complain.
It's like if a cashier rings up one item and forgets the other but right before I pay she's like "oops" and adds the other thing I'm buying. Do I pitch a fit because I didn't get something for free I don't deserve? No
Seems like Artosis is making sense, as always. It also seems like Strelok is being like one of those "ooh you left first after we both sayed gg although you clearly won so I get the win" kind of people, disrespect.
If a store asst manager (ie gamestop) prices a rock band kit for $25 instead of $200 they must sell it at that price. Store manager cannot say "ops miss priced" and put the correct sticker on. The store is obligated to sell the rock band kit at the marked price. (though the asst manager may get fired)
I was playing in a poker tournament in Macau. I was going pretty far and had a big stack. I put out a huge bluff on this guy but he called me. I showed my hand. Then he showed me a hand that beat mine but then accidentally flipped it upside down and threw it into the muck. The rules state that if you do this your hand is dead. That means I win the hand. This pot was worth a lof of money in equity for me. One faggot kid chimed up and he's like "YO THATS UR POT MAN HE MUCKED IT." I looked at the kid like he was a fucking idiot. The dealer was trying to ship me the pot. "Give him the pot." I said. Kids like "no dude thats ur pot..."
"GIVE HIM THE FUCKKKKING POT."
The idiot that mucked his hand had no idea what was going on. But justice was had. I did not deserve those chips. He made the right call. Some other guy at the table said "WOW, respect." Just another day in the life.
Example 2:
Similar situaion. I called a huge turn bet with a straight flush draw (king jack high) on a QTssxx board and then missed on the the river. I checked and the other guy checked. I slammed my hand down face up as always do. He then just like insta mucked his hand. The dealer shipped me the pot then the guy (who is a genuinely nice guy) was like "OMG I HAD KJ TOO I THOUGHT U HAD SOMETHING BETTER BY THE WAY U FLIPPED UR HAND UP SO I JUST MUCKED."
I looked him in the eye, "are you serious?" "Yes!" He was not lying to me. I then counted the pot and gave him half of it.
On June 29 2009 22:50 cafaro wrote: Artosis is right, but please discuss initial descisions with people that actually KNOW the game, so controversy like this can be avoided
You don't even need to know the game that well, all you need is some common sense. An intelligent C- player could have made the right decision, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or a progamer.
its more like this: you steal a candy. the officer gets you and says: "you little fucker, if you ever do that again you pay 100$, NOW GO HOME!" [now you should go back and give that candy back, but strelok just walked away with it (his fail)] but, the next day you come again and the officer walks up to you and says: "you've stole a candy yestardy you gotta pay 100$ now"
thats just fucked up logic.
@topic i think for such a case no admin is needed, because if there is not a very clear advantage towards a player the game is still open. if there are just slight advantages you can always come back and win the game. so you as players should be good and manly enough to just replay the fucking game.
Sooo funy the first page of this thread consist a lot of ppl supporting strelok without even knowing what are the details and then rekrul comes...write something and the sheeps follow him as they usually do.Mark my words Strelok ur doomed here!
On June 29 2009 22:45 StorZerg wrote: If a store asst manager (ie gamestop) prices a rock band kit for $25 instead of $200 they must sell it at that price. Store manager cannot say "ops miss priced" and put the correct sticker on. The store is obligated to sell the rock band kit at the marked price. (though the asst manager may get fired)
That isn't what I was saying at all but this is more good will or company policy than any obligation under contract law (invitation to treat) if it is done mistakenly.
On June 29 2009 22:54 pokerface wrote: Sooo funy the first page of this thread consist a lot of ppl supporting strelok without even knowing what are the details and then rekrul comes...write something and the sheeps follow him as they usually do.Mark my words Strelok ur doomed here!
Or maybe it had something to do with the fact that Artosis, the one who intervened, also posted his side? Nope, definitely sheep
On June 29 2009 22:45 StorZerg wrote: If a store asst manager (ie gamestop) prices a rock band kit for $25 instead of $200 they must sell it at that price. Store manager cannot say "ops miss priced" and put the correct sticker on. The store is obligated to sell the rock band kit at the marked price. (though the asst manager may get fired)
That isn't what I was saying at all but this is more good will or company policy than any obligation under contract law (invitation to treat) if it is done mistakenly.
the law is not universal, in my country the store HAS to pay, its not good will or company policy at all. major mistakes are excluded ofc aka you wont get a Rolex for 20.00 instead of 2000.--
On June 29 2009 22:32 nataziel wrote: I dunno, sounds like strelok kind of has a point, he's not saying that anything the referees have said is wrong, just that they went back on their word. By the same token, why leave? Worst case scenario you play fenix and lose... best case, you win the tournament. Strelok is in no way badmouthing sdm or artosis, he's saying they DO know more about starcraft than him, he's just pissed off that they changed their decision. Both sides have fair arguments, but I just think it's a bit stupid to turn around and pull out because of something like this.
No! Actually what he should have done is this! After the disconnect happened said "Well that sucks ok replay gogo."
Thats what a normal person would do.
But instead he chooses to act like a little girl that just got farted on.
brb i gotta fart on a little girl so i get the full meaning out of this post
On June 29 2009 22:45 StorZerg wrote: If a store asst manager (ie gamestop) prices a rock band kit for $25 instead of $200 they must sell it at that price. Store manager cannot say "ops miss priced" and put the correct sticker on. The store is obligated to sell the rock band kit at the marked price. (though the asst manager may get fired)
That isn't what I was saying at all but this is more good will or company policy than any obligation under contract law (invitation to treat) if it is done mistakenly.
the law is not universal, in my country the store HAS to pay, its not good will or company policy at all. major mistakes are excluded ofc aka you wont get a Rolex for 20.00 instead of 2000.--
It probably varies by country but here there's the bait and switch side which is illegal, advertising one price and trying to sell it at another. But if you just plum forgot a decimal when you were putting the price tag on, you aren't obligated to sell it for that price by law. Although a lot of consumers seem to think you are and will raise a huge fuss and for most retailers it's just way better to keep the customer happy and give him his plastic dinnerware for $2.50 instead of $25
Those poker metaphores are quite irrelevant though they don't add anything to the fact that Strelok didn't like it that the admins changed opinions so quickly. They just show that you've got too much money. I understand the one about the mucking part that's a fair call but giving someone a half pot since he claimed to have the same cards . That's just being too idealistic imo.
Strelok never complained or asked to make it 0-0 again, he just wanted a decision about the second game since he felt he was ahead in that game. Then the admin(s) came up with that decision. So why would it be his fault if they made a stupid decision? It's kinda lame imo to make Strelok look like a cheating unfair person now... As far as I remember he's one of the more fair players on the scene. You should give him some credit.
Why don't the admins make the game public so it's not based on the opinion of one guy like it is now.
If it went down the way Artosis described it's the worst decision I've ever heard of. HOWEVER i refuse to believe someone can make a decision that outrageously wrong so I assume that someone tricked Lipton and SDM to make the wrong call by providing false facts OR the version told by Artosis is not entirely true.
Artosis is (as far as i've noticed) a really great guy so it feels like someone pulled a number on Lipton and then basically what Rekrul said...
But I don't want to judge before I've heard the whole story from everyone... Really sad that this happened
Replace Liptons name with Kespa in almost every post made in this thread.... see the similarity? i don mean to bash lipton, but this is what happens when u have someone who doesn't have full knowledge on the tourneys he's working on...
so, now that Strelok is out, is the broadcast getting delayed again?
i kinda feel bad for tasteless and SDM on how Valor is turning into waves and waves of dramas and problems...
I was playing in a poker tournament in Macau. I was going pretty far and had a big stack. I put out a huge bluff on this guy but he called me. I showed my hand. Then he showed me a hand that beat mine but then accidentally flipped it upside down and threw it into the muck. The rules state that if you do this your hand is dead. That means I win the hand. This pot was worth a lof of money in equity for me. One faggot kid chimed up and he's like "YO THATS UR POT MAN HE MUCKED IT." I looked at the kid like he was a fucking idiot. The dealer was trying to ship me the pot. "Give him the pot." I said. Kids like "no dude thats ur pot..."
"GIVE HIM THE FUCKKKKING POT."
The idiot that mucked his hand had no idea what was going on. But justice was had. I did not deserve those chips. He made the right call. Some other guy at the table said "WOW, respect." Just another day in the life.
Example 2:
Similar situaion. I called a huge turn bet with a straight flush draw (king jack high) on a QTssxx board and then missed on the the river. I checked and the other guy checked. I slammed my hand down face up as always do. He then just like insta mucked his hand. The dealer shipped me the pot then the guy (who is a genuinely nice guy) was like "OMG I HAD KJ TOO I THOUGHT U HAD SOMETHING BETTER BY THE WAY U FLIPPED UR HAND UP SO I JUST MUCKED."
I looked him in the eye, "are you serious?" "Yes!" He was not lying to me. I then counted the pot and gave him half of it.
BUT!!! I guess not everyone can be the man.
this thread is about how other people made wrong decisions, not about how much of a man you are
On June 29 2009 23:04 Shizuru~ wrote: Replace Liptons name with Kespa in almost every post made in this thread.... see the similarity? i don mean to bash lipton, but this is what happens when u have someone who doesn't have full knowledge on the tourneys he's working on...
so, now that Strelok is out, is the broadcast getting delayed again?
i kinda feel bad for tasteless and SDM on how Valor is turning into waves and waves of dramas and problems...
i guess that Strolok is angry not with the results os the decision... but, as he said, with the change of the result after 5 days, and is worse when you know that you cant do a shit about.
I was playing in a poker tournament in Macau. I was going pretty far and had a big stack. I put out a huge bluff on this guy but he called me. I showed my hand. Then he showed me a hand that beat mine but then accidentally flipped it upside down and threw it into the muck. The rules state that if you do this your hand is dead. That means I win the hand. This pot was worth a lof of money in equity for me. One faggot kid chimed up and he's like "YO THATS UR POT MAN HE MUCKED IT." I looked at the kid like he was a fucking idiot. The dealer was trying to ship me the pot. "Give him the pot." I said. Kids like "no dude thats ur pot..."
"GIVE HIM THE FUCKKKKING POT."
The idiot that mucked his hand had no idea what was going on. But justice was had. I did not deserve those chips. He made the right call. Some other guy at the table said "WOW, respect." Just another day in the life.
Example 2:
Similar situaion. I called a huge turn bet with a straight flush draw (king jack high) on a QTssxx board and then missed on the the river. I checked and the other guy checked. I slammed my hand down face up as always do. He then just like insta mucked his hand. The dealer shipped me the pot then the guy (who is a genuinely nice guy) was like "OMG I HAD KJ TOO I THOUGHT U HAD SOMETHING BETTER BY THE WAY U FLIPPED UR HAND UP SO I JUST MUCKED."
I looked him in the eye, "are you serious?" "Yes!" He was not lying to me. I then counted the pot and gave him half of it.
BUT!!! I guess not everyone can be the man.
this thread is about how other people made wrong decisions, not about how much of a man you are
Wrong decisions were made. Wrong decisions were corrected and balance was restored. Now this little girl is whining.
While I do possess male genetalia and am a man, what I said is that I am THE man.
On June 29 2009 23:11 Baytuts wrote: i guess that Strolok is angry not with the results os the decision... but, as he said, with the change of the result after 5 days, and is worse when you know that you cant do a shit about.
He can be a man and finish what he started or he can be childish about it and drop out. Sorry to put it so brutally honest but its the truth. I wanted to see him play and possibly win.
Regarding this blind "lets just replay if we get d/ced" is that not just playing into the hands of whoever disconnected. That's probably why Daniel and Lipton chose to do it this way. I mean, does that mean next time im playing a bo5 and I feel like my apm is not at its peak, or my mind isn't in the game, things that are very hard to see by the replay, mind you, I can just d/c because I don't like the conditions that I'm playing in and can do so with no repercussion?
On June 29 2009 22:54 WhuazGoodNjaggah wrote: Rekrul your analogy is really fail.
its more like this: you steal a candy. the officer gets you and says: "you little fucker, if you ever do that again you pay 100$, NOW GO HOME!" [now you should go back and give that candy back, but strelok just walked away with it (his fail)] but, the next day you come again and the officer walks up to you and says: "you've stole a candy yestardy you gotta pay 100$ now"
thats just fucked up logic.
@topic i think for such a case no admin is needed, because if there is not a very clear advantage towards a player the game is still open. if there are just slight advantages you can always come back and win the game. so you as players should be good and manly enough to just replay the fucking game.
"fail" is not an adjective don't bring 4chan vernacular here
your username is unacceptable, PM me with an acceptable name to have it changed to
On June 29 2009 23:23 epicdoom wrote: Regarding this blind "lets just replay if we get d/ced" is that not just playing into the hands of whoever disconnected. That's probably why Daniel and Lipton chose to do it this way. I mean, does that mean next time im playing a bo5 and I feel like my apm is not at its peak, or my mind isn't in the game, things that are very hard to see by the replay, mind you, I can just d/c because I don't like the conditions that I'm playing in and can do so with no repercussion?
most people have some sense of fair play and wont do that
On June 29 2009 23:23 epicdoom wrote: Regarding this blind "lets just replay if we get d/ced" is that not just playing into the hands of whoever disconnected. That's probably why Daniel and Lipton chose to do it this way. I mean, does that mean next time im playing a bo5 and I feel like my apm is not at its peak, or my mind isn't in the game, things that are very hard to see by the replay, mind you, I can just d/c because I don't like the conditions that I'm playing in and can do so with no repercussion?
The basis of having such an agreement to just replay is founded on the ideal that both players are willing to play fairly and would not stoop to such lows.
Rekrul, those rules aren't examples of poor rules. Those are examples what happens if you have very clear rules that are enforced very clearly. If you muck, your hand is dead. That's how it should be. you can't muck a hand and then take it back even if you won.
Otherwise you should make it so your hand can't ever be dead unless you have to have to put more money in the pot and you don't.
You always have the freedom to give people back their money, if that itself isn't against the rules.
Also, this has nothing to do with the Strelok case.
If they have the principle: "Lipton makes a final decision and that stands no matter what." then they have that rule. and then if Lipton makes a bad decision that can't be reversed.
If they have a rule stating "We aim to make the most fair ruling possible and only the last ruling will be the final one." then they have that as a rule.
If they have a general rule for a disconnect then they have that. "Game is played again unless Lipton rules game was unequal enough to award a win."
Replaying game 1 because of game 2 makes no sense. I guess at some point Strelok took the the "I don't accept this, I demand to replay the entire Bo3 or I will refuse to play" position. This would be an attempt at blackmail and it should never fly. He should expect to accept the ruling. You never get to decide you deserve a win because you suffered an unfair ruling. And even if this is a rule, then Fenix would get the autowin because he was ruled against unfairly, apparenently.
Does Strelok even claim that in game 2 he had enough of an advantage to get a win? If not and he refuses to replay game 2, he forfeits.
If Lipton claimed his ruling was final and it wasn't he has a problem. Strelok has what Lipton claims is his final ruling. But now Lipton wants to go back on it? He can try but if Strelok refuses then that's probably not very manner. But then Strelok has a point. Lipton would be breaking his own rules to correct his unfair judgment. And you aren't allowed to break rules.
Both players accept the rules by entering the tournament. If the rules fuck them over then that's the risk they are taking.
Lipton can always claim game 2 has to be replayed if the rules state disconnects where the game is equal need to be replayed. That rule also has to be enforced. Lipton also can't ignore that rule even when he claimed he made a 'final ruling'. Strelok also accepted this.
On June 29 2009 23:38 Glaucus wrote: Rekrul, those rules aren't examples of poor rules. Those are examples what happens if you have very clear rules that are enforced very clearly. If you muck, your hand is dead. That's how it should be. you can't muck a hand and then take it back even if you won.
Otherwise you should make it so your hand can't ever be dead unless you have to have to put more money in the pot and you don't.
You always have the freedom to give people back their money, if that itself isn't against the rules.
Also, this has nothing to do with the Strelok case.
If they have the principle: "Lipton makes a final decision and that stands no matter what." then they have that rule. and then if Lipton makes a bad decision that can't be reversed.
If they have a rule stating "We aim to make the most fair ruling possible and only the last ruling will be the final one." then they have that as a rule.
If they have a general rule for a disconnect then they have that. "Game is played again unless Lipton rules game was unequal enough to award a win."
Replaying game 1 because of game 2 makes no sense. I guess at some point Strelok took the the "I don't accept this, I demand to replay the entire Bo3 or I will refuse to play" position. This would be an attempt at blackmail and it should never fly. He should expect to accept the ruling. You never get to decide you deserve a win because you suffered an unfair ruling. And even if this is a rule, then Fenix would get the autowin because he was ruled against unfairly, apparenently.
Does Strelok even claim that in game 2 he had enough of an advantage to get a win? If not and he refuses to replay game 2, he forfeits.
Why is it that everyone with 10 posts is a dumbass? LOL.
Thank you for educating me on the rules of poker.
You're right though, they don't apply to streloks case. They apply to STRELOK.
If you actually have morals, honor, and/or self-respect you can find situations were disregarding the 'rules' is actually the 'right' thing to do. Hence my examples.
I shouldn't really be getting involved with this, I know, but I feel like I should mention this:
Lipton and Daniel Lee (Tasteless too, but he hasn't been mentioned) obviously put in quite a bit of work to organize this tournament and should be give some respect for that. I'm not saying that their decisions were perfect, but that they should be respected. They created the tournament; they can run it as they see fit.
Of course, Artosis' comments indicate that wrong decisions had been made and, therefore, had been adjusted. If, after that, a player doesn't want to remain in that tournament, then that's fair enough, but it should be recognized that this affects more than just the players of the game in question. This throws of the whole tournament and causes problems for the organizers and all players involved.
I'm not saying that Strelok did anything wrong necessarily. I certainly don't have the right to make claims like that about anyone involved in this incident and neither do most people in this thread.
However, I just wanted to point out that a lot of work has obviously gone into this, it's a great opportunity for the players involved and it's easy to forget that when you're just throwing blame around at people.
On June 29 2009 23:40 Strelok. wrote: I won't reply more in this thread, because i already said all i wanted to.
LOL says:: kid knows when hes lost LOL says: wonder if he will ask lipton to replay this thread Dan - LAS VEGAS says: lOLOLOL Dan - LAS VEGAS says: HAHAHAHAHA
On June 29 2009 23:11 Baytuts wrote: i guess that Strolok is angry not with the results os the decision... but, as he said, with the change of the result after 5 days, and is worse when you know that you cant do a shit about.
He can be a man and finish what he started or he can be childish about it and drop out. Sorry to put it so brutally honest but its the truth. I wanted to see him play and possibly win.
i mean the decision change of the referees, not about Strelok's attitude after this
If you actually have morals, honor, and/or self-respect you can find situations were disregarding the 'rules' is actually the 'right' thing to do. Hence my examples.
In a game both players play by the rules. It's not immoral to win chips when your opponent mucks the better hand. It's not immoral to accept the rules you actually claim to follow.
Doesn't mean you shouldnt be 'nice' and overrule the rules yourself. Rules aren't there to be moral. They are there to prevent disputes and disagreements and to always make it clear what should happen. It's very naive to think that the rules define what is 'the right thing to do'.
Isn't it immoral to accept the pot you lost accorcding to the rules just because your opponent doesn't understand the rules? Because that's what the guys you gave the chips to did. Would you refuse the pot if you mucked a hand that would have won? If so, does that show your morals and honor?
Apparently this tournament doesn't have rules concerning disconnects. At least I couldn't find them. I only found 'no smurf' rules from round 1. In that case if Lipton made what he called a 'final ruling', he has a big problem. He has no room to go back on his words unless he thinks he can just break his word if he feels like. And if he can do that then it's a big jungle.
But if Lipton does so, Strelok should have known that there were no rules and that anything could happen, including this. He has the right to refuse to play. He can point out Lipton broke his word. But no rule states he deserves a win.
And what about Fenix going out of his way to get Artosis to force Lipton to break his word? Lipton lost all his credibility thanks to Fenix need to get a win, apparently. Is that honor? Remember again there are no rules at all and Fenix agreed to this as well.
So Rekrul admits he's basically attacking Strelok for lack of 'honor' while bragging about his own. And of course totally ignoring the actual dispute. Just shows what kind of personality he truly has.
On June 29 2009 22:32 nataziel wrote: I dunno, sounds like strelok kind of has a point, he's not saying that anything the referees have said is wrong, just that they went back on their word. By the same token, why leave? Worst case scenario you play fenix and lose... best case, you win the tournament. Strelok is in no way badmouthing sdm or artosis, he's saying they DO know more about starcraft than him, he's just pissed off that they changed their decision. Both sides have fair arguments, but I just think it's a bit stupid to turn around and pull out because of something like this.
No! Actually what he should have done is this! After the disconnect happened said "Well that sucks ok replay gogo."
Thats what a normal person would do.
But instead he chooses to act like a little girl that just got farted on.
brb i gotta fart on a little girl so i get the full meaning out of this post
Lmao. Do you guys not have little sisters growing up?
If you actually have morals, honor, and/or self-respect you can find situations were disregarding the 'rules' is actually the 'right' thing to do. Hence my examples.
In a game both players play by the rules. It's not immoral to win chips when your opponent mucks the better hand. It's not immoral to accept the rules you actually claim to follow.
Doesn't mean you shouldnt be 'nice' and overrule the rules yourself. Rules aren't there to be moral. They are there to prevent disputes and disagreements and to always make it clear what should happen. It's very naive to think that the rules define what is 'the right thing to do'.
Isn't it immoral to accept the pot you lost accorcding to the rules just because your opponent doesn't understand the rules? Because that's what the guys you gave the chips to did. Would you refuse the pot if you mucked a hand that would have won? If so, does that show your morals and honor?
Apparently this tournament doesn't have rules concerning disconnects. At least I couldn't find them. I only found 'no smurf' rules from round 1. In that case if Lipton made what he called a 'final ruling', he has a big problem. He has no room to go back on his words unless he thinks he can just break his word if he feels like. And if he can do that then it's a big jungle.
But if Lipton does so, Strelok should have known that there were no rules and that anything could happen, including this. He has the right to refuse to play. He can point out Lipton broke his word. But no rule states he deserves a win.
So Rekrul admits he's basically attacking Strelok for lack of 'honor' while bragging about his own. And of course totally ignoring the actual dispute. Just shows what kind of personality he truly has.
I didn't ignore the actual dispute. I addressed it and Artosis already GG'd the thread anyways.
Would you refuse the pot if you mucked a hand that would have won? If so, does that show your morals and honor?
I never make mistakes like that in poker. I am basically the BEST and perfect and hold myself to a higher standard than everyone else because of this. I can happily let people slide when they fuck up even though I know that that same very person might be the kind of mother fucker that wouldn't let me slide...simply because I never make stupid mistakes like that.
Facts: 1. It was bad for the admins to make a decision and go back on it. 2. Strelok can justifiably by upset about that. 3. Fenix AND strelok should not have lost because of this. 3a. This means that Fenix deserved the regame as a close game -> disconnect should never be awarded a win in tourney play AND strelok should be man enough/have a cool head to accept a shitty decision WHICH MEANS he recovers from admins flipping a decision. 4. Artosis made the right decision to have them replay game 2.
I always wondered why does player with big "name", such has reckrul, artosis etc never get temp ban ( or maybe they are some time, but i never saw it). It's that i dont find their post funny or anything, but some time i think they turn some post in huge drama storry and find it sad (funny but sad) And btw Happy birthday reckrul.
Sad, sad, sad ....Hey Strelok, u are our WCG Champion ! Be a man and replay that game. I can understand your anger, but be above of that unprofessional decision making. Its bad for SC, its bad for valor and its bad for u, because u are definitely capable of winning this tournament.
Furthermore publish that replay and make a poll, so the community can decide which one of the decisions were right !
On June 30 2009 00:15 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Facts: 1. It was bad for the admins to make a decision and go back on it. 2. Strelok can justifiably by upset about that. 3. Fenix AND strelok should not have lost because of this. 3a. This means that Fenix deserved the regame as a close game -> disconnect should never be awarded a win in tourney play AND strelok should be man enough/have a cool head to accept a shitty decision WHICH MEANS he recovers from admins flipping a decision. 4. Artosis made the right decision to have them replay game 2.
On June 30 2009 00:34 taurum wrote: Sad, sad, sad ....Hey Strelok, u are our WCG Champion ! Be a man and replay that game. I can understand your anger, but be above of that unprofessional decision making. Its bad for SC, its bad for valor and its bad for u, because u are definitely capable of winning this tournament.
Furthermore publish that replay and make a poll, so the community can decide which one of the decisions were right !
our? uh? what your from germany yes? last i checked strelok wasnt.
On June 30 2009 00:34 taurum wrote: Sad, sad, sad ....Hey Strelok, u are our WCG Champion ! Be a man and replay that game. I can understand your anger, but be above of that unprofessional decision making. Its bad for SC, its bad for valor and its bad for u, because u are definitely capable of winning this tournament.
Furthermore publish that replay and make a poll, so the community can decide which one of the decisions were right !
our? uh? what your from germany yes? last i checked strelok wasnt.
OMG ur such a genius!! :D
This post made my day,even better than the whole thread hahahah
On June 30 2009 00:15 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Facts: ... 4. Artosis made the right decision to have them replay game 2.
I love it when someone lists their own opinion as a fact... It almost makes them sound reasonable.
------
People must have missed it when strelok said that he would have accepted 0-1 if that had been the decision in the first place.
Also, 1 week (really?) of training for a tourney and then all your time spent goes to the toilet when the admins change their decision... I guess Strelok's time must not be worth much to you guys!
ps. oh shit rekrul drama inserted into thread, AND he whines about strelok adding drama to the issue... world explodes
On June 30 2009 00:32 WeakTuna wrote: I always wondered why does player with big "name", such has reckrul, artosis etc never get temp ban ( or maybe they are some time, but i never saw it). It's that i dont find their post funny or anything, but some time i think they turn some post in huge drama storry and find it sad (funny but sad) And btw Happy birthday reckrul.
All the big names rarely get banned. It's an admin decision. I also believe rekrul might still be an admin. I know he was at one time.
If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed. If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament.
We should be fair to Fenix, and so the game should be replayed. We should be fair to Strelok, and so Lipton should be banned as a judge.
Strelok, you shouldn't ask to return to the first decision, because it was unfair decision. However you can ask to ban Lipton as a judge, you have all the rights to ask for this satisfaction.
Lipton as a real man should give to Strelok such satisfaction, and Strelok as a real man should accept it and replay the game 2.
On June 30 2009 00:32 WeakTuna wrote: I always wondered why does player with big "name", such has reckrul, artosis etc never get temp ban ( or maybe they are some time, but i never saw it). It's that i dont find their post funny or anything, but some time i think they turn some post in huge drama storry and find it sad (funny but sad) And btw Happy birthday reckrul.
They aren't going to temp-ban him on his birthday.
On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote: If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed. If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament. .
TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~
On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote: Lipton as a real man should give to Strelok such satisfaction, and Strelok as a real man should accept it and replay the game 2.
I would say that making a drama thread on the forum home to Artosis' friends, against Artosis' opinion, is very manly... I would have shat my pants and accepted the hard truth instead of risking public humilliation from Rekrul coming into the thread and making gigantic posts that make all the nerds get wet.
On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote: If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed. If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament. .
TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~
Usually Rekrul writes trolling trash but this time he's right. Decency and the right decision should ALWAYS win. Strelok acted like a dick.... and still is.
The only information I need is that Strelok was offered 1-1 and took it. Any respectable player would have declined immediately and asked for a re-game. Now he's bitching about the right decision? Grow some balls.
That Lipton and Daniel Lee would both decide that the alternative to letting a disconnect decide game two should be a replay of the entire series is mind-bogglingly stupid. It doesn't take "experience as an admin" or StarCraft knowledge to realize that such a decision is moronic -- just common sense.
Strelok has a right to withdraw from the tournament and of course he was wronged by Lipton's wishy-washyness, but letting such a decision stand would have been unacceptable. And as other posters are pointing out, the manner thing to do would have been to refuse the 1-1 and ask for a replay of game 2 right off.
However, let's keep in mind that it's the job of tournament administrators to avoid situations in which players must act against their own interests for a fair solution to be reached.
Imho not only the admins are supposed to behave professionally but also the players. I find it highly unprofessional to try to get a freewin and then leave crying when it doesn't work. I have nothing against strelok personally but this post also seems like it was made to get people on his side without telling them the truth (because if they knew it they wouldn't agree with him) and that is also very unprofessional and childish.
Strelok made the right choice. The foreigner community lets bad decisions like this slide way too often, and it hurts our professionalism. Esports really shouldn't be like a private lan where friends can just get together and make a compromise after a "final" ruling has been made. Judges make bad calls all the time in other professions, and they have to live with it. Why is the Valor tournament any different?
On June 30 2009 01:23 caelym wrote: Strelok made the right choice. The foreigner community lets bad decisions like this slide way too often, and it hurts our professionalism. Esports really shouldn't be like a private lan where friends can just get together and make a compromise after a "final" ruling has been made. Judges make bad calls all the time in other professions, and they have to live with it. Why is the Valor tournament any different?
Judges don't usually have lots of time to make the right decision, and keeping game flow is highly important.
On June 30 2009 01:23 caelym wrote: Strelok made the right choice. The foreigner community lets bad decisions like this slide way too often, and it hurts our professionalism. Esports really shouldn't be like a private lan where friends can just get together and make a compromise after a "final" ruling has been made. Judges make bad calls all the time in other professions, and they have to live with it. Why is the Valor tournament any different?
Judges don't usually have lots of time to make the right decision, and keeping game flow is highly important.
you must not play on clan leagues a lot... what with the 3 hour long clanwars when admins get involved... I sometimes get nightmares from that
On June 30 2009 00:32 WeakTuna wrote: I always wondered why does player with big "name", such has reckrul, artosis etc never get temp ban ( or maybe they are some time, but i never saw it). It's that i dont find their post funny or anything, but some time i think they turn some post in huge drama storry and find it sad (funny but sad) And btw Happy birthday reckrul.
All the big names rarely get banned. It's an admin decision. I also believe rekrul might still be an admin. I know he was at one time.
Rek has been temp banned before for shitting on Plexa ^^
On June 30 2009 01:00 Klive5ive wrote: The only information I need is that Strelok was offered 1-1 and took it. Any respectable player would have declined immediately and asked for a re-game.
I mean, I'd hope it's pretty obvious that the dispute is over whether Strelok had an advantage in game 2? The initial decision was that he was ahead by enough to justify giving him the game, which was evidently what he believed. It's not like people were considering just handing him the game for no reason.
As for Strelok's reaction: I would be annoyed if someone had at first judged me to be ahead by enough to warrant playing from 1-1, and then later changed his mind and taken the game away. I'm not claiming that I would lnecessarily eave the tournament over it, but... it would suck, right? My impression is that no one's being deliberately bm about this; given the reputations of the people in question, it seems most likely Strelok and the judges honestly thought he had the advantage and Artosis honestly doesn't agree.
In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
On June 30 2009 02:34 blipster8 wrote: In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
Shitty decisions made; shitty decisions fixed. It sucks on both ends. Only fair way to do it is replay the game. No reason to dismiss the chance at 1000$ just because a bit of unprofessionalism on their part. Just replay the game, imo
On June 30 2009 01:00 Klive5ive wrote: In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
I don't think this thread was made for discussion, but rather as a last resort that Strelok is using to try to solve the issue. And by "issue" I mean the recurring lack of professionalism in non-korean tournaments, which ironically was pointed out by SDM himself.
On June 30 2009 00:34 taurum wrote: Sad, sad, sad ....Hey Strelok, u are our WCG Champion ! Be a man and replay that game. I can understand your anger, but be above of that unprofessional decision making. Its bad for SC, its bad for valor and its bad for u, because u are definitely capable of winning this tournament.
Furthermore publish that replay and make a poll, so the community can decide which one of the decisions were right !
our? uh? what your from germany yes? last i checked strelok wasnt.
OMG ur such a genius!! :D
This post made my day,even better than the whole thread hahahah
awh strelok, youre a good guy and yeah sorry for your mishaps.final decisions should be final unless its due to unique circumstances, idk what the issue was but it seems like there were no unique circumstances.
I don't understand this at all strelok. I have several friends who know you, one of them being oystein who call you a very good mannered guy and yet you get upset that you have to replay a supposedly even game instead of the entire series what the fuck?
If my government actually made a mistake and sent me 20,000 dollars for taxes instead of 200 and then later fixed the mistake would I have any right to that money or to being upset?
Yes its annoying that Valor is a complete crap tournament and is being run worse then most of the tournaments put out by community sites BUT you are not a crap person and have no right to demand that lipton and DLEE stick to an obviously RETARDED decision.
Can we play a bo5, with disconnects resulting in a replay of the entire series? I'm sure given enough oppurtunities I can beat you.....
On June 30 2009 00:15 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Facts: 1. It was bad for the admins to make a decision and go back on it. 2. Strelok can justifiably by upset about that. 3. Fenix AND strelok should not have lost because of this. 3a. This means that Fenix deserved the regame as a close game -> disconnect should never be awarded a win in tourney play AND strelok should be man enough/have a cool head to accept a shitty decision WHICH MEANS he recovers from admins flipping a decision. 4. Artosis made the right decision to have them replay game 2.
lol you might look up fact somewhere, because none of these things are any.
In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
I disagree. To me the issue is whether or not both Lipton and Daniel said it was their "final decision" that Strelok would get the win in game 2. Once a decision is called final, it should under no circumstances be changed (even if it was a questionable one) unless the situation changes, which it did not. In my opinion this is unprofessional behaviour.
wow one of the most mannered and respected players in the scene gets such a treatment like he is some abuser or smth when he actually has a point,it sickens me. Its not about if the decision was right or wrong (in this case wrong) but how unprofessional the admin handled it.
On June 30 2009 00:32 WeakTuna wrote: I always wondered why does player with big "name", such has reckrul, artosis etc never get temp ban ( or maybe they are some time, but i never saw it). It's that i dont find their post funny or anything, but some time i think they turn some post in huge drama storry and find it sad (funny but sad) And btw Happy birthday reckrul.
certain people can get away with more than other people, based on who they are and the contributons they have made to this site and to the community in general
artosis and rekrul can do absolutely whatever they want on teamliquid, if you don't like it that's real unfortunate
Has anyone ever thought about why SDM reinforced Lipton's decision? I am not entirely sure what I that is supposed to mean. Some ideas I have: 1) He supports his partner. 2) He thinks it was a correct decision based on his own experience in professional SC. 3) He doesn't care that much about that isse and simply agreed on Lipton's decision to be done with it. 4) There were some facts we don't know about.
I don't think 3) is the case, he seems to care at least that much about Valor. Just listing it for completeness' sake. Any other thoughts? SDM has been around in the professional scene too long to make such bad decisions just like that, at least that's my opinion. So this really bugs me quite a bit...
On June 30 2009 03:51 spinesheath wrote: Has anyone ever thought about why SDM reinforced Lipton's decision? I am not entirely sure what I that is supposed to mean. Some ideas I have: 1) He supports his partner. 2) He thinks it was a correct decision based on his own experience in professional SC. 3) He doesn't care that much about that isse and simply agreed on Lipton's decision to be done with it. 4) There were some facts we don't know about.
I don't think 3) is the case, he seems to care at least that much about Valor. Just listing it for completeness' sake. Any other thoughts? SDM has been around in the professional scene too long to make such bad decisions just like that, at least that's my opinion. So this really bugs me quite a bit...
progaming doesn't have these problems and its not like daniel lee is heavily experienced in running online tournaments, there's no reason to believe he is has the experience necessary to always make the correct judgement call
In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
I disagree. To me the issue is whether or not both Lipton and Daniel said it was their "final decision" that Strelok would get the win in game 2. Once a decision is called final, it should under no circumstances be changed (even if it was a questionable one) unless the situation changes, which it did not. In my opinion this is unprofessional behaviour.
In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
I disagree. To me the issue is whether or not both Lipton and Daniel said it was their "final decision" that Strelok would get the win in game 2. Once a decision is called final, it should under no circumstances be changed (even if it was a questionable one) unless the situation changes, which it did not. In my opinion this is unprofessional behaviour.
In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
I disagree. To me the issue is whether or not both Lipton and Daniel said it was their "final decision" that Strelok would get the win in game 2. Once a decision is called final, it should under no circumstances be changed (even if it was a questionable one) unless the situation changes, which it did not. In my opinion this is unprofessional behaviour.
The bottom line of what most likely happened is that Fenix disconnected in the second game. There are some possible solutions as to how decide the consequences of this. I would agree that a replay is a good solution, but stating it as the only right decision without knowing the detailed scenario is too presumptuous for my taste. So in this situation the arbiters make a decision which they think to be reasonable in the beginning, but later think is wrong. The unfortunate part now is that the first decision was apparently called final.
If that is really the situation in all its truth, i can very well understand the feelings of every party involved. Strelok is pissed because he was promised an outcome in his favor, a promise which was broken. Everybody would be pissed to a certain extent. Was it ok to revise the decision by the arbiters? If it really was called 'final', formally certainly not - but this is not a tournament where millions of dollars are on the line, so arbiters can make mistakes and should be forgiven for making them.
Now i also would encourage Strelok to see past this misstep by the arbiters and continue playing. If he does not want to, this can can also be understood and has to be respected. 'Legally' i think he's right and of course there is also a certain amount of pride involved. Insulting him like it has happened in this thread is completely unwarrented.(It is always easy to demand high moral standards for *other* people, right?)
On June 30 2009 03:07 AttackZerg wrote: I don't understand this at all strelok. I have several friends who know you, one of them being oystein who call you a very good mannered guy and yet you get upset that you have to replay a supposedly even game instead of the entire series what the fuck?
If my government actually made a mistake and sent me 20,000 dollars for taxes instead of 200 and then later fixed the mistake would I have any right to that money or to being upset?
Yes its annoying that Valor is a complete crap tournament and is being run worse then most of the tournaments put out by community sites BUT you are not a crap person and have no right to demand that lipton and DLEE stick to an obviously RETARDED decision.
Can we play a bo5, with disconnects resulting in a replay of the entire series? I'm sure given enough oppurtunities I can beat you.....
daniel lee and lipton must have thought strelok had the advantage in game 2. i don't understand why some people are saying they handed strelok game 2 for no reason. a final decision was made, and it was reversed a week later. i can definitely see why strelok would be upset. a lot of it comes down to how game 2 actually played out, but once two official refs make a final decision, they should stand by it. you should not give strelok shit for practicing for an entire week just to have the "final decision" flipped around. strelok must have believed he was ahead in game 2, and therefore went along with the refs' decision. then gets screwed later on.
i am not in position to judge what should have happened (at least until i watch the game 2 replay on my own). but you have to look at this from strelok's perspective, too. it's unfortunate to see something like this happen.
On Who Wants to Be A Millionaire, once you say final answer, you can't change it.
On June 29 2009 22:47 Rekrul wrote: Example 1:
I was playing in a poker tournament in Macau. I was going pretty far and had a big stack. I put out a huge bluff on this guy but he called me. I showed my hand. Then he showed me a hand that beat mine but then accidentally flipped it upside down and threw it into the muck. The rules state that if you do this your hand is dead. That means I win the hand. This pot was worth a lof of money in equity for me. One faggot kid chimed up and he's like "YO THATS UR POT MAN HE MUCKED IT." I looked at the kid like he was a fucking idiot. The dealer was trying to ship me the pot. "Give him the pot." I said. Kids like "no dude thats ur pot..."
"GIVE HIM THE FUCKKKKING POT."
We should all listen to the guy who gambles with kids, you big meanie.
Replay game 2 seems the only logical thing to do and I am the newbiest of newbies when it comes to SC If Fenix is low enough to spam bot or whatever Artosis, I am assuming he is low enough to DC on purpose. Seeing the game 2 replay is only thing that will solve this.
maybe the game was even at that point, but that can still mean that it is heavily in favour of one person over the other. i dont have facts, but strelok may have played fenix often and knows that he wont lose in the later stages of the game. After all fenix is known for being a cheesy faggot
On June 30 2009 05:17 MaGic~PhiL wrote: no matter who is wrong or right.. no fucking matter.. streloks behaviour is childish and not playing game 2 and 3 is just stupid..
On June 30 2009 05:18 Wurzelbrumpft wrote: maybe the game was even at that point, but that can still mean that it is heavily in favour of one person over the other. i dont have facts, but strelok may have played fenix often and knows that he wont lose in the later stages of the game. After all fenix is known for being a cheesy faggot
What the fuck is trash like this doing posting here?
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: I am public person. I have fans, haters, people who just follow my rezults. That's why i feel responsible to make such statement. I got trouble in my match against Fenix in Ro8 Valor. I don't want to explain the details of complaint fully, because i don't want flame war starting. Lipton, the main runner of the tournament got letters from both sides with all their arguments, after what he made "final decision". Fenix didn't like it and refused to accept it and continue series. I talked to Daniel Lee, the organizator of this tournament. He also agreed with my arguments and made his "final decision" which was nearly the same with Liptons one. Sounds very nice and professional, yeah? After that i went to Moscow to LAN finals for 2 days. I came back and saw the PM with Liptons words that he changes his "final decision" without having no new arguments or reasons. You know, i understand when girls in the shop, can't select between 2 dresses and change their decisions many times. But i really can't understand when serious men, professionals, change their decisions, "final decisions" as they call them, for many times. That is why i decided to drop off from the tournament. I drop off not because i think this decision is unfair (even though i think so), i drop because 2 from 3 "big bosses" of the professional tournament changed their final decision without having any new reasons or information in 5 days after making previous one. I feel sorry for people who wanted me to win and for people who just wanted to see good games between me and Fenix. I can only hope you will read my arguments and accept them.
Eugin "Strelok" Oparyshev.
Wow thats really lack of professionalism. I would go rage-mode on them by saying "How can you change you're opinion when the final decision was stated already and that we both were fine with it.."
I would do exactly the same as you Strelok, step up on the pedestal and just tell you're story cause were backing you up on this.
Strelok btw, I think you should post on gosugamers, and the other community site just to tell you're story.
On June 30 2009 05:17 MaGic~PhiL wrote: no matter who is wrong or right.. no fucking matter.. streloks behaviour is childish and not playing game 2 and 3 is just stupid..
childish as opposed to your one-line flame-post which is an example of maturity, am I right?
if the series was already played out and strelok won then i dont see why it should have to be replayed. admins made a bad decision it's their job to live with it and not pass responsibility to the players.
In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
I disagree. To me the issue is whether or not both Lipton and Daniel said it was their "final decision" that Strelok would get the win in game 2. Once a decision is called final, it should under no circumstances be changed (even if it was a questionable one) unless the situation changes, which it did not. In my opinion this is unprofessional behaviour.
In any case: debating the decision itself in this thread is fairly pointless, because the whole issue hinges on whether Strelok was in fact considerably ahead in game 2, or whether the game was even enough to require replaying. Since the replay hasn't been released, none of us can know, and hence none of us could possibly know what the right decision should have been.
I disagree. To me the issue is whether or not both Lipton and Daniel said it was their "final decision" that Strelok would get the win in game 2. Once a decision is called final, it should under no circumstances be changed (even if it was a questionable one) unless the situation changes, which it did not. In my opinion this is unprofessional behaviour.
Someone would guess that names like Rekrul would behave a bit better with less of arrogance and not cause more drama then it's already made. Oh well... I guess you can behave like that when entire admin team of TL is behind you.
Anyhow, full support to Strelok and man, best of luck in next tournaments and I hope these unpleasant moments from Valor won't affect your performance in future.
On June 30 2009 00:32 WeakTuna wrote: I always wondered why does player with big "name", such has reckrul, artosis etc never get temp ban ( or maybe they are some time, but i never saw it). It's that i dont find their post funny or anything, but some time i think they turn some post in huge drama storry and find it sad (funny but sad) And btw Happy birthday reckrul.
Read the Commandments. Wait, let me help you:
6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similiar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.
Remember: we ban little girly-kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 500 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.
In practice, this policy means a user who has 1000+ posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.
This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on.
Of course the numbers have gone up since this was written, but Rekrul is definitely, without a doubt, a forum veteran.
No one knows shit who hasnt watched game 2. Period. If it was really too close to call, then bad luck replay the game. If Strelok had a lock on the game, give it to him. If it was 66% or 75% in Strelok's favor but still could go either way then it's hard to make a fair decision and I'd probably take into account which player disconnected.
I am sympathetic to Strelok, as I have dealt with SC tournaments run by idiots, and you definitely should be able to consider the matter closed once the big guy in charge says a final decision has been made. Goes to show how video games still get no respect and trying to play them seriously is pretty much a waste of time. Such things would never happen in ping pong or snooker let alone soccer or basketball.
On June 30 2009 05:17 MaGic~PhiL wrote: no matter who is wrong or right.. no fucking matter.. streloks behaviour is childish and not playing game 2 and 3 is just stupid..
childish as opposed to your one-line flame-post which is an example of maturity, am I right?
Flame post ? Could it be that you arent really capable of understanding this language ? I did not flame strelok at all.
All I said was that I find it childish to 'give up / forfeit' a game just because one isnt happy with the decision of the admins.
Calling someone childish is no flame. I just dont understant why he gives up without a fight okey ? Even if he feels betrayed or if he thinks he's the one being right he could still just accept it and play thand 2nd and that possible 3rd game.
But feel free to explain me where I exactly am flaming anyone. And no: calling someone childish is not flaming.
And that fucking in front of matter is no flame either it's just an adjective and not directed to a person..
And I dont think Im flaming someone when i call his behaviour stupid. Thats just what I find it to be. Thats no fucking flame....
On June 30 2009 08:00 fast ball player wrote: No one knows shit who hasnt watched game 2. Period. If it was really too close to call, then bad luck replay the game. If Strelok had a lock on the game, give it to him. If it was 66% or 75% in Strelok's favor but still could go either way then it's hard to make a fair decision and I'd probably take into account which player disconnected.
I am sympathetic to Strelok, as I have dealt with SC tournaments run by idiots, and you definitely should be able to consider the matter closed once the big guy in charge says a final decision has been made. Goes to show how video games still get no respect and trying to play them seriously is pretty much a waste of time. Such things would never happen in ping pong or snooker let alone soccer or basketball.
I really agree with u, as i said before lack of professionalism.
It's no wonder Strelok didn't want to go into the details of the situation, since he wasn't man enough to do the right thing and insist on a rematch for the 2nd game. Instead he tried to steal a game from a bad ref decision.
On June 30 2009 08:25 NovaTheFeared wrote: It's no wonder Strelok didn't want to go into the details of the situation, since he wasn't man enough to do the right thing and insist on a rematch for the 2nd game. Instead he tried to steal a game from a bad ref decision.
Think out of his situation, what would you have done?
On June 30 2009 08:25 NovaTheFeared wrote: It's no wonder Strelok didn't want to go into the details of the situation, since he wasn't man enough to do the right thing and insist on a rematch for the 2nd game. Instead he tried to steal a game from a bad ref decision.
Think out of his situation, what would you have done?
Not quit a tournament where I still had a good chance of making it into the finals for money, knowing that I would probably be playing bw anyway if I wasn't playing in this tournament
You can't just say oh dang DC lets replay. If Strelok was winning match 2 and there was a DC in a online tournament anything could have happened. He could have quit on purpose or faked a lagout. Which is why there are referees. He asked the referees what to do and for some strange reason they gave a stupid final decision. He went away for a week knowing of the final decision and at the last minute they changed the decision on him. Everytime someone is about to lose they will just DC
On June 30 2009 00:15 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Facts: ... 4. Artosis made the right decision to have them replay game 2.
I love it when someone lists their own opinion as a fact... It almost makes them sound reasonable.
------
People must have missed it when strelok said that he would have accepted 0-1 if that had been the decision in the first place.
Also, 1 week (really?) of training for a tourney and then all your time spent goes to the toilet when the admins change their decision... I guess Strelok's time must not be worth much to you guys!
ps. oh shit rekrul drama inserted into thread, AND he whines about strelok adding drama to the issue... world explodes
Oh you nailed me man! The fact that it is my opinion and I claimed that my opinion coincided with a fact suddenly debunks my point! Brilliant dude.. truly brilliant.
Alternatively.. how about SURE they are not "facts" in the strictest sense.. but they are logical and probably descriptions of the events done in a applicable fashion.
Artosis made the right call. That has been held up in almost every fucking tourney that is reputable in the history of bw. If a game is close, you replay it when the unfortunate events occurs like a disconnect. You don't arbitrarily give a win or reward the player "refusing to regame."
On June 30 2009 00:15 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Facts: ... 4. Artosis made the right decision to have them replay game 2.
I love it when someone lists their own opinion as a fact... It almost makes them sound reasonable.
------
People must have missed it when strelok said that he would have accepted 0-1 if that had been the decision in the first place.
Also, 1 week (really?) of training for a tourney and then all your time spent goes to the toilet when the admins change their decision... I guess Strelok's time must not be worth much to you guys!
ps. oh shit rekrul drama inserted into thread, AND he whines about strelok adding drama to the issue... world explodes
Oh you nailed me man! The fact that it is my opinion and I claimed that my opinion coincided with a fact suddenly debunks my point! Brilliant dude.. truly brilliant.
Alternatively.. how about SURE they are not "facts" in the strictest sense.. but they are logical and probably descriptions of the events done in a applicable fashion.
Artosis made the right call. That has been held up in almost every fucking tourney that is reputable in the history of bw. If a game is close, you replay it when the unfortunate events occurs like a disconnect. You don't arbitrarily give a win or reward the player "refusing to regame."
^---- Fact.
His first list of facts were facts too but that's just my opinion so I guess they aren't facts at all and are totally untrue?
First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
On June 30 2009 09:27 Chanted wrote: First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
I love how all these nerds come in here and try to talk about the situation "logically." You're all idiots.
This slight fuck-up in Valor almost did Strelok a huge favor. Now that it's reversed it's back to even. He has nothing to be pissed about.
It's like my son's weekly allowance is 10$ but then I accidentally give him an 100$ bill. I then later count the money in my wallet and ask him "SON DID I GIVE YOU 10 OR 100?" he then says "10$" then I search his pockets, find the 100$, spank him for being a bad boy, then give him his 10$. But then the kid gets angry and throws the 10$ on the ground and says "I DONT WANT IT!!"
Guess there'll be no new legos for Strelok to build this week!
the whole idea that there is some magical moral property to a "final decision" that everyone must stick to is ridiculous. mistakes can be made. situations can be re-evaluated. i'm surprised that eSports fans get upset when a tournament is willing to admit they messed up on their final decision so that they can do what's best for the tournament. if anyone should get upset, it'd be someone like a businessman in his suit and tie who is sponsoring it and cares more about reputation than fair play.
whatever is best for the tournament trumps anything else. artosis always knows what's best for a tournament (not being sarcastic at all here).
i don't understand how strelok dropping out is professional, best for the tournament, or best for him. nothing is certain in life. if he was literally a professional player, i have no doubt his coach would've made him stay in the tournament.
On June 29 2009 21:31 Artosis wrote: The unprofessional thing was the decision. Fenix approached me and told me what Lipton's decision was, and it was clearly wrong. For this reason I spoke to those in charge and fixed it.
Here's what happened. Game 1: Fenix wins. Game 2: at 15 minutes, the game is very close, and someone disconnects.
Original decision made by admins: "Either replay BOTH games, or be 1-1 and play game 3."
When I heard of this, after watching the replay of game 2, it was clearly wrong. Infact, it might be one of the worst decisions I have EVER seen. For this reason I made a fuss on Fenix's behalf to make sure that the right outcome came out of it. The outcome is obvious. Replay game 2. This is the ONLY way to solve this situation. Personally, I don't care if Lipton, a non-SC player made some shit decision and it got reversed. Its GOOD that it got reversed. Lipton is trying his best, but he doesn't understand competitive SC.
In summary: replay game 2. If you stand against this because an ignorant admin ruled differently at first, then you don't respect Fenix and you don't respect fair play. May the best player win, not the one lucky enough to get a bad admin to make poor decisions in his favor.
Artosis is right, man up and play game 2 over since there was no undoubted winner at the time of the disconnect. No wonder Strelok didn't give reasons for his arguments ^^.
On June 30 2009 09:27 Chanted wrote: First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
I love how all these nerds come in here and try to talk about the situation "logically." You're all idiots.
This slight fuck-up in Valor almost did Strelok a huge favor. Now that it's reversed it's back to even. He has nothing to be pissed about.
It's like my son's weekly allowance is 10$ but then I accidentally give him an 100$ bill. I then later count the money in my wallet and ask him "SON DID I GIVE YOU 10 OR 100?" he then says "10$" then I search his pockets, find the 100$, spank him for being a bad boy, then give him his 10$. But then the kid gets angry and throws the 10$ on the ground and says "I DONT WANT IT!!"
Guess there'll be no new legos for Strelok to build this week!
OR....you could of read streloks post properly, and realized that he was mostly mad/upset because it took them FIVE DAYS to reverse their decision. He already said in his post that he would of gladly took the 0-1 and replayed it on the spot. Go back and read it, just so it sinks in before you start another random flame based off of a twisted personal opinion. As a matter of fact, why are soo many people stating that he just wanted the win? let me repeat what he said earlier...
He is pissed that it took them 5 days to change their mind. So, due to this lack of professionalism , he has decided to withdraw. It's that simple. Thats it, nothing more. You cannot create the arguement that he wanted the win...when he clearly fucking said he was fine with the 0-1.
You may think someone's an idiot for approaching this "logically" (rofl?) but how are you not one for approaching it full of bullshit?
On June 30 2009 09:27 Chanted wrote: First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
I love how all these nerds come in here and try to talk about the situation "logically." You're all idiots.
This slight fuck-up in Valor almost did Strelok a huge favor. Now that it's reversed it's back to even. He has nothing to be pissed about.
It's like my son's weekly allowance is 10$ but then I accidentally give him an 100$ bill. I then later count the money in my wallet and ask him "SON DID I GIVE YOU 10 OR 100?" he then says "10$" then I search his pockets, find the 100$, spank him for being a bad boy, then give him his 10$. But then the kid gets angry and throws the 10$ on the ground and says "I DONT WANT IT!!"
Guess there'll be no new legos for Strelok to build this week!
OR....you could of read streloks post properly, and realized that he was mostly mad/upset because it took them FIVE DAYS to reverse their decision. He already said in his post that he would of gladly took the 0-1 and replayed it on the spot. Go back and read it, just so it sinks in before you start another random flame based off of a twisted personal opinion. As a matter of fact, why are soo many people stating that he just wanted the win? let me repeat what he said earlier...
He is pissed that it took them 5 days to change their mind. So, due to this lack of professionalism , he has decided to withdraw. It's that simple. Thats it, nothing more. You cannot create the arguement that he wanted the win...when he clearly fucking said he was fine with the 0-1.
You may think someone's an idiot for approaching this "logically" (rofl?) but how are you not one for approaching it full of bullshit?
OH NOES I SAT IN MY ROOM JERKING OFF WITH A LEATHER BELT FOR FIVE DAYS SRAIGHT DESPERATELY AWAITING THE MODS FINAL DECISION TO BE FINALIZED I WAS ON THE EDGE OF MY SEAT EATING DORITOS DIPPING THEM IN KETCHUP BECAUSE I HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON I REFUSED ANY SOCIAL CONTACT AND I EVEN CALLED MY MOM A DUMB BITCH FOR EVEN INSINUATING THAT I SHOULD EAT A REAL MEAL, HOW DARE THE ADMINS DO THIS TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, Rekrul, it's like when you're on a really bad plane when it goes through turbulence and the guy next to you steals $20 and then you have to fight for it back but then the turbulence knocks you both off your feet and your head hits the door and you get knocked unconscious and break your arm and then the airplane lands safely but has a really rough landing but you are ok and the plane company will have to reimburse you or you'll sue them and so they give you $10,000 and then a homeless guy who has a really long beard and only drinks dr. pepper goes up to them and says dood wtf and then the airplane only gives you $20 instead and so you can only buy like 1000 less lotto tickets and so instead you doesn't want it and uses it on 5 dollar foot longs from subway.
On June 30 2009 09:27 Chanted wrote: First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
I love how all these nerds come in here and try to talk about the situation "logically." You're all idiots.
This slight fuck-up in Valor almost did Strelok a huge favor. Now that it's reversed it's back to even. He has nothing to be pissed about.
It's like my son's weekly allowance is 10$ but then I accidentally give him an 100$ bill. I then later count the money in my wallet and ask him "SON DID I GIVE YOU 10 OR 100?" he then says "10$" then I search his pockets, find the 100$, spank him for being a bad boy, then give him his 10$. But then the kid gets angry and throws the 10$ on the ground and says "I DONT WANT IT!!"
Guess there'll be no new legos for Strelok to build this week!
OR....you could of read streloks post properly, and realized that he was mostly mad/upset because it took them FIVE DAYS to reverse their decision. He already said in his post that he would of gladly took the 0-1 and replayed it on the spot. Go back and read it, just so it sinks in before you start another random flame based off of a twisted personal opinion. As a matter of fact, why are soo many people stating that he just wanted the win? let me repeat what he said earlier...
He is pissed that it took them 5 days to change their mind. So, due to this lack of professionalism , he has decided to withdraw. It's that simple. Thats it, nothing more. You cannot create the arguement that he wanted the win...when he clearly fucking said he was fine with the 0-1.
You may think someone's an idiot for approaching this "logically" (rofl?) but how are you not one for approaching it full of bullshit?
OH NOES I SAT IN MY ROOM JERKING OFF WITH A LEATHER BELT FOR FIVE DAYS SRAIGHT DESPERATELY AWAITING THE MODS FINAL DECISION TO BE FINALIZED I WAS ON THE EDGE OF MY SEAT EATING DORITOS DIPPING THEM IN KETCHUP BECAUSE I HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON I REFUSED ANY SOCIAL CONTACT AND I EVEN CALLED MY MOM A DUMB BITCH FOR EVEN INSINUATING THAT I SHOULD EAT A REAL MEAL, HOW DARE THE ADMINS DO THIS TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
am I suppose to respond to that? Is this your usual method of dodging replies? I don't get it.
It has nothing to do with whether or not he sat there. He has a right to be upset over the time delay in their decision. If a sports team, like a hockey team managed to tie up the stanly cup final series 3-3 forcing a game seven, only to find out FIVE days later that no, in fact it will be reversed there would be massive arguing and probably riots in the city. The point is, when something is important, there should be no reason in decisions taking that long. He was angry sure, but he didnt come onto this website flaming everyone in sight. He stated that he was upset in the TIME DELAY in the changed decision, and because of that, he stepped down. To each their own, and spamming a bunch of unreadable bullshit with caps lock on doesn't make you look any better. But please go on, flame me hard for no reason, and don't forget to include 2-3 poker stories at the end...wouldn't want you to get that empty feeling inside.
On June 30 2009 09:27 Chanted wrote: First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
I love how all these nerds come in here and try to talk about the situation "logically." You're all idiots.
This slight fuck-up in Valor almost did Strelok a huge favor. Now that it's reversed it's back to even. He has nothing to be pissed about.
It's like my son's weekly allowance is 10$ but then I accidentally give him an 100$ bill. I then later count the money in my wallet and ask him "SON DID I GIVE YOU 10 OR 100?" he then says "10$" then I search his pockets, find the 100$, spank him for being a bad boy, then give him his 10$. But then the kid gets angry and throws the 10$ on the ground and says "I DONT WANT IT!!"
Guess there'll be no new legos for Strelok to build this week!
Your comparisons are always really terrible. But it basically shows that you do not even try to understand Streloks point. Maybe from your point of view you just cannot comprehend. But enough with that.
Obviously, more has happened behind the scenes than what can be told in a single forum post. I actually respect Strelok more just for the fact that he just gave the information what has happened and did not get involved into this useless flamewar just to have the last word. Since Strelok is basically known for good sportsmanship, and the tournament has been terrible organized unitl now, I believe that his reasons are genuine.
On June 30 2009 09:27 Chanted wrote: First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
I love how all these nerds come in here and try to talk about the situation "logically." You're all idiots.
This slight fuck-up in Valor almost did Strelok a huge favor. Now that it's reversed it's back to even. He has nothing to be pissed about.
It's like my son's weekly allowance is 10$ but then I accidentally give him an 100$ bill. I then later count the money in my wallet and ask him "SON DID I GIVE YOU 10 OR 100?" he then says "10$" then I search his pockets, find the 100$, spank him for being a bad boy, then give him his 10$. But then the kid gets angry and throws the 10$ on the ground and says "I DONT WANT IT!!"
Guess there'll be no new legos for Strelok to build this week!
Your comparisons are always really terrible. But it basically shows that you do not even try to understand Streloks point. Maybe from your point of view you just cannot comprehend. But enough with that.
Obviously, more has happened behind the scenes than what can be told in a single forum post. I actually respect Strelok more just for the fact that he just gave the information what has happened and did not get involved into this useless flamewar just to have the last word. Since Strelok is basically known for good sportsmanship, and the tournament has been terrible organized unitl now, I believe that his reasons are genuine.
I agree with you. He didnt attack anyone with his post, he merely stated he no longer wanted to participate. There is no reason to flame him, yet rekrul decided to completely misread everything he said, and construe it as something entirely different. Then he has the idea that WERE all idiots...*cough* lol. Maybe if it was someone like LS who has been really retarded in the past, but strelok is always nice, and approachable with a positive attitude. Why even bash on someone like that?
On June 30 2009 09:56 Liquid`NonY wrote: the whole idea that there is some magical moral property to a "final decision" that everyone must stick to is ridiculous. mistakes can be made. situations can be re-evaluated. i'm surprised that eSports fans get upset when a tournament is willing to admit they messed up on their final decision so that they can do what's best for the tournament. if anyone should get upset, it'd be someone like a businessman in his suit and tie who is sponsoring it and cares more about reputation than fair play.
whatever is best for the tournament trumps anything else. artosis always knows what's best for a tournament (not being sarcastic at all here).
i don't understand how strelok dropping out is professional, best for the tournament, or best for him. nothing is certain in life. if he was literally a professional player, i have no doubt his coach would've made him stay in the tournament.
On June 30 2009 09:27 Chanted wrote: First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
I love how all these nerds come in here and try to talk about the situation "logically." You're all idiots.
This slight fuck-up in Valor almost did Strelok a huge favor. Now that it's reversed it's back to even. He has nothing to be pissed about.
It's like my son's weekly allowance is 10$ but then I accidentally give him an 100$ bill. I then later count the money in my wallet and ask him "SON DID I GIVE YOU 10 OR 100?" he then says "10$" then I search his pockets, find the 100$, spank him for being a bad boy, then give him his 10$. But then the kid gets angry and throws the 10$ on the ground and says "I DONT WANT IT!!"
Guess there'll be no new legos for Strelok to build this week!
Your comparisons are always really terrible. But it basically shows that you do not even try to understand Streloks point. Maybe from your point of view you just cannot comprehend. But enough with that.
Obviously, more has happened behind the scenes than what can be told in a single forum post. I actually respect Strelok more just for the fact that he just gave the information what has happened and did not get involved into this useless flamewar just to have the last word. Since Strelok is basically known for good sportsmanship, and the tournament has been terrible organized unitl now, I believe that his reasons are genuine.
I agree with you. He didnt attack anyone with his post, he merely stated he no longer wanted to participate. There is no reason to flame him, yet rekrul decided to completely misread everything he said, and construe it as something entirely different. Then he has the idea that WERE all idiots...*cough* lol
Yes from my point of view I cannot comprehend. In life I surround myself only with people who have a real understanding of morals, ethics, trust, and common sense. I just can't stand to associate with people who act like dumb whiney little bitches. So when I see someone acting like a whiney little bitch I just can't help but overreact. Sorry guys my bad!!
On June 30 2009 09:56 Liquid`NonY wrote: the whole idea that there is some magical moral property to a "final decision" that everyone must stick to is ridiculous. mistakes can be made. situations can be re-evaluated.
The point is being missed over and over, especially by Rekrul who is missing it in a rather insistent fashion, almost willingly, I suspect, to keep the drama going.
- He did not disagree that the game should be 0-1, in fact he agreed with that:
On June 29 2009 21:42 Strelok. wrote: I would agree with his decision 0-1 and replay second game IF it wasn't made week after but immediatly.
- Strelok is mad because the issue was handled in a rather amateur manner, and for this reason he withdrew from the tournament:
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: But i really can't understand when serious men, professionals, change their decisions, "final decisions" as they call them, for many times. That is why i decided to drop off from the tournament. I drop off not because i think this decision is unfair
- His intention was not that of getting a freewin, otherwise he wouldn't drop off the tournament (duh) and say:
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: I feel sorry for people who wanted me to win and for people who just wanted to see good games between me and Fenix.
-----
If I understood it correctly, Strelok had not lost yet otherwise he wouldn't need to withdraw, so he did this to make a point. Considering the amount of money at stake, this shows he either has balls or plain doesn't care about the money. People who are calling him a cheater or a coward should learn to read and stop making fools out of themselves.
PS. this last paragraph is not meant as a response to Nony's post.
On June 30 2009 09:27 Chanted wrote: First off, why blame Strelok here, blame Valor adminstaff. I completely understand where Strelok is coming from, and I think he is doing the right thing here. Its easy to sit there and say, "oh stop being a crybaby and just play the game" and so on, but most of you are ignorant to the underlying issues here. From reading this situation, most likely Fenix is the one who disconnected. Otherwise, I doubt Strelok would make a complaint about replaying that game. Secondly, Strelok obviously thought he had the advantage of the game, and if I thought I had a good advantage of the game, and the other guy disconnects, damn sure I would fight for my rights.
Now, Strelok a really good player seems to think that he has the advantage in this game, so does SDM, a headcoach for Estro, and he has been in the scene way longer then Artosis or anyone else on this site. And there is Artosis, who is saying that the advantage isnt clear, and NOBODY seems to doubt that, or even think that he can be wrong. It`s a fucking joke, that is what that is. If Strelok can be wrong, so can Artosis, but I really hope this replay finds it way to the public, so we all can see and judge for ourselves.
Really unfortunate for the credability of Valor tournement. Head admin makes a decision, gets disputed, second Headadmin if we can call SDM that, comes and supports that decision. Anywhere else, iccup/wgtour etc, this would be a FINAL decision, as in Final, Finito, 1-1 and go for last game. But here, Fenix complains to someone OUTSIDE the tournement staff, actually leaking the replay somewhat, and is probably breakin the Valor rule allready here. Then this person OUTSIDE the Valor staff, overwrites 2 admins, its just ridicolous. Whether the decision to change this is right or not, this is unacceptable. Valor allowing themselves to be stepped upon like that just goes to show how little balls they have to stand by their decisions.
I see where Artosis is coming from, if he believes that the decision is wrong, and nobody had the advantage, I think I would probably do what he did, and try to get it changed, so he has Balls Strelok is standing by principles, not letting Valor jerk him anymore around, even if it costs him his participation in Valor, and probably even a cashprize, since he could very well beat Fenix 2-0 now, and then his next opponent, so he has Balls Valor, making a decision, then getting it backed up by another admin, only to have it reverted from someone OUTSIDE of their staff, simply lack balls and now credibility
I love how all these nerds come in here and try to talk about the situation "logically." You're all idiots.
This slight fuck-up in Valor almost did Strelok a huge favor. Now that it's reversed it's back to even. He has nothing to be pissed about.
It's like my son's weekly allowance is 10$ but then I accidentally give him an 100$ bill. I then later count the money in my wallet and ask him "SON DID I GIVE YOU 10 OR 100?" he then says "10$" then I search his pockets, find the 100$, spank him for being a bad boy, then give him his 10$. But then the kid gets angry and throws the 10$ on the ground and says "I DONT WANT IT!!"
Guess there'll be no new legos for Strelok to build this week!
Your comparisons are always really terrible. But it basically shows that you do not even try to understand Streloks point. Maybe from your point of view you just cannot comprehend. But enough with that.
Obviously, more has happened behind the scenes than what can be told in a single forum post. I actually respect Strelok more just for the fact that he just gave the information what has happened and did not get involved into this useless flamewar just to have the last word. Since Strelok is basically known for good sportsmanship, and the tournament has been terrible organized unitl now, I believe that his reasons are genuine.
I agree with you. He didnt attack anyone with his post, he merely stated he no longer wanted to participate. There is no reason to flame him, yet rekrul decided to completely misread everything he said, and construe it as something entirely different. Then he has the idea that WERE all idiots...*cough* lol. Maybe if it was someone like LS who has been really retarded in the past, but strelok is always nice, and approachable with a positive attitude. Why even bash on someone like that?
didnt attack anyone? he claimed the valor admins screwed him, when in fact he was just trying to get his 0-1 overturned. he was certainly not taking the high road. especially given that he purposefully avoided talking about what the admin's decision actually was.
On June 30 2009 10:12 Rekrul wrote: And if any of you were wondering. I just asked some people who know everything about the situation.
Fact 1: Daniel Lee didn't even watch the replay.
Fact 2: The reason why it was "FIVE DAYS" is because Strelok was at a LAN and didn't bother checking his email for that extent of time.
WHATS UP NOW?
Please explain how this changes anything.
The decision was still changed, and the timeframe is unspecified, so it could have been 4 days, or 4 days and 23 hours for all we know. Not that it's relevant anyway.
timeframe was specified actually he said they made the decision, he then went to a lan for 2 days, and when he got back he had a pm that the decision was changed.
whats wrong with changing a decision? why should they let a bad decision stand when it can be easily fixed? they hadnt even played the rest of the matches yet.
think this through, it is uncharacteristic someone with your reputation for being manner to act so unreasonably. tourney organizers have been making mistakes since caveman rock throwing contests.
On June 30 2009 09:56 Liquid`NonY wrote: the whole idea that there is some magical moral property to a "final decision" that everyone must stick to is ridiculous. mistakes can be made. situations can be re-evaluated.
The point is being missed over and over, especially by Rekrul who is missing it in a rather insistent fashion, almost willingly, I suspect, to keep the drama going.
- He did not disagree that the game should be 0-1, in fact he agreed with that:
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: But i really can't understand when serious men, professionals, change their decisions, "final decisions" as they call them, for many times. That is why i decided to drop off from the tournament. I drop off not because i think this decision is unfair
- His intention was not that of getting a freewin, otherwise he wouldn't drop off the tournament (duh) and say:
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: I feel sorry for people who wanted me to win and for people who just wanted to see good games between me and Fenix.
-----
If I understood it correctly, Strelok had not lost yet otherwise he wouldn't need to withdraw, so he did this to make a point. Considering the amount of money at stake, this shows he either has balls or plain doesn't care about the money. People who are calling him a cheater or a coward should learn to read and stop making fools out of themselves.
PS. this last paragraph is not meant as a response to Nony's post.
No, it's you that is misunderstanding.
What Strelok is saying NOW doesn't matter.
Fact of the matter is when it did happen Strelok tried to get the 1-1 or 0-0. Maybe he didn't try but even just passively agreeing with a very unfair referee decision in your favor is cheating. He sat on his ass for 5 days waiting and hoping for his freebee until Artosis came around and fixed the situation. And as I mentioned just before it wasn't them making him wait, but him making them wait by not replying to his email. If he was such a mannered player he would have said "No, screw that, whats fair is to just re-game it." But he didn't...what he says is BS, his actions have shown his true character. Hopefully he'll learn from this.
Now he's trying to flip it around and act like he has been done a terrible misjustice simply because he had to wait for 5 days for the correct and honorable decision to be made. Even saying he's gunna drop out of the tournament because of it (lol).
If you can't understand how pathetic all of that is then you're a fucking idiot.
The fact of the matter is is that e-sports in general and especially foreign e-sports is in it's absolute infancy. In general people running the show are incompetent as there simply aren't enough people with the experience and skillset and principles like Artosis to make the correct decisions all the time. Hopefully that will progress but for now, it is up to the players to maintain the integrity of a tournament. Thats why people like me, who actually understand this, get fucking mad when these little faggot gamers act like little faggot gamers instead of grown up human beings.
Just play the games Strelok and Fenix, I don't give a crap if its in valor because I can't even watch it without paying those fools, I just want these games to be played and be exciting.
Okay there settled, 0-1 go on with games 2 and 3. You do these builds all the time, you should be able to crush him, you had time to come up with something new and better. Gogogogo. Kick some trash Mozart.
On June 30 2009 10:30 Rekrul wrote: Thats why people like me, who actually understand this, get fucking mad when these little faggot gamers act like little faggot gamers instead of grown up human beings.
Basically, anyone viewing the case differently (not to mention nearly noone has first hand information in the first place) is a "fucking idiot" who just does not understand. Speaking of understanding, try again to comprehend that maybe there is a tiny chance that someone is really pissed at an organization, and his actions are not only directed towards the fact that he did not get a free win.
I am not sure you should be judging who is a "grown up human being".
Strelok's only mistake was assuming that Valor was a professionally-ran tournament. Mistakes like these are the differences between "amateur" and "professional."
On June 30 2009 10:30 Rekrul wrote: Maybe he didn't try but even just passively agreeing with a very unfair referee decision in your favor is cheating. He sat on his ass for 5 days waiting and hoping for his freebee until Artosis came around and fixed the situation.
Do you have the replay? Otherwise if SDM didn't even watch the replay, I don't know where you got the "unfair" qualification from. Post the replay and we'll see. He did say he thought he was ahead in the game. In any case the option of 0-1 was not offered, despite Fenix asking for it.
If things are the way you paint them, then I'd agree with all of what you said, but it seems you're just taking huge guesses here.
Also I don't see how "he sat on his ass for 5 days" couldn't just be something you pulled out of your ass, as noone knows what goes inside Strelok's head, and we hardly have any idea about what he did in those 5 days. If we're going to go by his record, he is known for being one of the most mannered top players around, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
On June 30 2009 10:30 Rekrul wrote: Thats why people like me, who actually understand this, get fucking mad when these little faggot gamers act like little faggot gamers instead of grown up human beings.
I also get mad when people try to bend the rules in their favor, this in fact happens a lot in the community, but we don't know for a fact that it's what happened here, so I'd say we stick to this very american concept of "innocent until proven guilty".
You show great passion when publicly destroying people who are consistently unmannered, and it would be nice if you used the same passion to defend people who still haven't been proven to be guilty in any reasonably believable way.
On June 30 2009 10:30 Rekrul wrote: Thats why people like me, who actually understand this, get fucking mad when these little faggot gamers act like little faggot gamers instead of grown up human beings.
Basically, anyone viewing the case differently (not to mention nearly noone has first hand information in the first place) is a "fucking idiot" who just does not understand. Speaking of understanding, try again to comprehend that maybe there is a tiny chance that someone is really pissed at an organization, and his actions are not only directed towards the fact that he did not get a free win.
I am not sure you should be judging who is a "grown up human being".
HOW FUCKING DARE THEY TRY TO RUN A TOURNAMENT ONLINE AND ALLOW PEOPLE FOR FREE GIVING THEM THE CHANCE AT TV TIME ON GOM AND CASH PRIZES
HOW DARE THEY DO THAT AND THEN MAKE A LITTLE MISTAKE AND FIX IT
HOW DARE YOU VALOR, U SHOULD BE FUCKING ASHAMED OF URSELF, DO US FOREIGNERS ALL A BIG FAVOR AND JUST GO AWAY AND NEVER COME BACK U PATHETIC ORGANIZATION
/facepalm at the amount of retards in this thread...
this entire drama stems from 2 root cause:
i) Valor is run by an inexperienced admin, and thus an error in judgement and decision has been made.
ii) Strelok, knowingly that the game is even and no victor are decided yet, agreed on allowing Fenix to forfeit a game and thus stealing a win from fenix. Anyone with any decent sense would've propose a rematch right away after the game got disconnected.
now maybe strelok didn't realise that lipton is not knowledge-able enough to make fair decision in a SC tourney, regardless if strelok were a good sport and proposed a rematch instantly after the game got disconnected we wouldn't have these dramas now..
now that the tourney admins has admitted their errors in decision and ruled out their initial judgement which was totally unfair and unjustified, strelok comes QQ-ing about what bullcrap "final decision"? he knew the decision was unfair, he took the advantage and stole a free win, and when a re-game is requested strelok just quits because of his free win got taken away?
seriously, and he comes here to rant about professionalism? what a pathetic joke...
he just completely shat on the face on tasteless and SDM that were helping to promote e-sports and gives all the foreign players a chance to get air-time...
On June 30 2009 10:30 Rekrul wrote: Maybe he didn't try but even just passively agreeing with a very unfair referee decision in your favor is cheating. He sat on his ass for 5 days waiting and hoping for his freebee until Artosis came around and fixed the situation.
Do you have the replay? Otherwise if SDM didn't even watch the replay, I don't know where you got the "unfair" qualification from. Post the replay and we'll see. He did say he thought he was ahead in the game. In any case the option of 0-1 was not offered, despite Fenix asking for it.
If things are the way you paint them, then I'd agree with all of what you said, but it seems you're just taking huge guesses here.
Also I don't see how "he sat on his ass for 5 days" couldn't just be something you pulled out of your ass, as noone knows what goes inside Strelok's head, and we hardly have any idea about what he did in those 5 days. If we're going to go by his record, he is known for being one of the most mannered top players around, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
On June 30 2009 10:30 Rekrul wrote: Thats why people like me, who actually understand this, get fucking mad when these little faggot gamers act like little faggot gamers instead of grown up human beings.
I also get mad when people try to bend the rules in their favor, this in fact happens a lot in the community, but we don't know for a fact that it's what happened here, so I'd say we stick to this very american concept of "innocent until proven guilty".
You show great passion when publicly destroying people who are consistently unmannered, and it would be nice if you used the same passion to defend people who still haven't been proven to be guilty in any reasonably believable way.
We have different view points. In my eyes the fact that he didn't step up and just be like "yo yo yo no thats okay admins whats fair is fair lets just replay it" makes him VERY GUILTY. But then again I like to hold people to a higher standard so I dunno! I'm not making huge guesses.
Even if Strelok had a slight advantage and he's right it doesn't even matter. Theres absolutely no way it was anything but a re-game situation as Artosis said it was. I mean if you can't take a kid whos life was 7 years of starcraft in the attic and then finally achieved his dream living in Korea working to help promote starcraft e-sports in every way possible's word for it then who the fuck are you going to listen to.
On June 30 2009 10:46 Rekrul wrote: HOW FUCKING DARE THEY TRY TO RUN A TOURNAMENT ONLINE AND ALLOW PEOPLE FOR FREE GIVING THEM THE CHANCE AT TV TIME ON GOM AND CASH PRIZES
Giving stuff away for free doesn't excuse doing a lousy job, if that's the case.
Especially not when one of the tournament organizers spent an entire hour ranting about the lack of professionalism in our community on live TV in one of the previous games.
On June 30 2009 09:56 Liquid`NonY wrote: the whole idea that there is some magical moral property to a "final decision" that everyone must stick to is ridiculous. mistakes can be made. situations can be re-evaluated.
The point is being missed over and over, especially by Rekrul who is missing it in a rather insistent fashion, almost willingly, I suspect, to keep the drama going.
- He did not disagree that the game should be 0-1, in fact he agreed with that:
On June 29 2009 21:42 Strelok. wrote: I would agree with his decision 0-1 and replay second game IF it wasn't made week after but immediatly.
- Strelok is mad because the issue was handled in a rather amateur manner, and for this reason he withdrew from the tournament:
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: But i really can't understand when serious men, professionals, change their decisions, "final decisions" as they call them, for many times. That is why i decided to drop off from the tournament. I drop off not because i think this decision is unfair
- His intention was not that of getting a freewin, otherwise he wouldn't drop off the tournament (duh) and say:
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: I feel sorry for people who wanted me to win and for people who just wanted to see good games between me and Fenix.
-----
If I understood it correctly, Strelok had not lost yet otherwise he wouldn't need to withdraw, so he did this to make a point. Considering the amount of money at stake, this shows he either has balls or plain doesn't care about the money. People who are calling him a cheater or a coward should learn to read and stop making fools out of themselves.
PS. this last paragraph is not meant as a response to Nony's post.
No, it's you that is misunderstanding.
What Strelok is saying NOW doesn't matter.
Fact of the matter is when it did happen Strelok tried to get the 1-1 or 0-0. Maybe he didn't try but even just passively agreeing with a very unfair referee decision in your favor is cheating. He sat on his ass for 5 days waiting and hoping for his freebee until Artosis came around and fixed the situation. And as I mentioned just before it wasn't them making him wait, but him making them wait by not replying to his email. If he was such a mannered player he would have said "No, screw that, whats fair is to just re-game it." But he didn't...what he says is BS, his actions have shown his true character. Hopefully he'll learn from this.
Now he's trying to flip it around and act like he has been done a terrible misjustice simply because he had to wait for 5 days for the correct and honorable decision to be made. Even saying he's gunna drop out of the tournament because of it (lol).
If you can't understand how pathetic all of that is then you're a fucking idiot.
Dude just because someone doesn't agree with you, on a pretty controversial matter, doesn't make them a fucking idiot... I'm more inclined to agree with you though that common-sense should prevail if even over regulation that doesn't make sense.
On June 30 2009 10:50 Rekrul wrote: Even if Strelok had a slight advantage and he's right it doesn't even matter. Theres absolutely no way it was anything but a re-game situation as Artosis said it was. I mean if you can't take a kid whos life was 7 years of starcraft in the attic and then finally achieved his dream living in Korea working to help promote starcraft e-sports in every way possible's word for it then who the fuck are you going to listen to.
LMAO.
rofl yeah Artosis does a great job imo, too bad the first decision wasn't made by him, would have saved people all this trouble
um.... both Strelok and Artosis both stopped posting a long time ago, and they were the only ones who really brought any meaning to this thread. Trust me, i know shit when i see it, I've made at least 3 threads that were closed in a day (and spent weeks dying a slow and painful internet death).
Why is everyone a dick online? There are better ways to express your opinion than calling people fucking stupid. Both these people have decent points, and obviously they would have made different decisions in the same situation. Why does every dissagreement have to be stardrama?
5 sentences, 2 rhetorical questions, & 1 point in this post.
On June 30 2009 10:53 fffff5 wrote: apparently if you're a teamliquid admin you're allowed to flood the forum with shitty troll posts.
if certain admins of this site didn't have such hubris this community would be so much stronger.
You're right but you worded it wrong. They have a strong, but small community. That's what happens when there is social stratification, classes, if you will. It's like the Amish people, every strong and tight-knit, but very small.
From reading the thread it seems that Strelok has been in enough tournments to know the initial decision was wrong, its doubtful that he had enough advantage to warrant an autowin as Artosis somehow presuaded lipton to reverse his decision. If Strelok had an advantage, he should state so and it would be up to the admins to determine if that advantage was significant enough to warrant an auto win.
The onus of making such decision lies solely on the admins and those running the tournment, And once that decision is made, than its final. If the strelok played any role in influencing the ref's decision, then it was the ref that was unprofessional, he should know full well whose interest strelok was looking after.
If you want to talk professionalism, quiting isn't part of it.
On June 30 2009 10:53 fffff5 wrote: apparently if you're a teamliquid admin you're allowed to flood the forum with shitty troll posts.
if certain admins of this site didn't have such hubris this community would be so much stronger.
blow it out your ass
i like how the teamliquid mod staff's relatively hands-off approach to retarded nonkorean sc drama is always somehow blamed for the plight of the community
On June 30 2009 10:53 fffff5 wrote: apparently if you're a teamliquid admin you're allowed to flood the forum with shitty troll posts.
if certain admins of this site didn't have such hubris this community would be so much stronger.
You're right but you worded it wrong. They have a strong, but small community. That's what happens when there is social stratification, classes, if you will. It's like the Amish people, every strong and tight-knit, but very small.
this is true to an extent but you'll notice that the only people banned in here are that guy who blames tl admins for everything, and that guy who quoted a warning i posted and said "QFT" (and he's only temp banned for two days)
that is definitely not par for the course and if you actually spend some time around here you'll see that threads about retarded nonkorean sc drama do not represent the way tl's forums function on the whole
some people never get that far, they just go to gg.net and blame the tl admins for everything forever
Well it's too late to do anything now since Strelok withdrew. Looks like it's time for a big trolling discussion! Remember, "we didn't start the flame war!"
im with strelok (in his complains)... even if the first "final" decision was wrong, admins cant go changing their decision. but i also think his reaction was maybe too strong, i mean he should note that he is against the second "final" decision, or with whole process, play win or lose, etc... never come back, but leaving in the middle of the tourney is disrespectful for averyone (even if he thinks he was not respected too)... fenix could do some fair play too giving up game 2, but maybe thats too much...
On June 30 2009 12:58 Inzek wrote: im with strelok (in his complains)... even if the first "final" decision was wrong, admins cant go changing their decision. but i also think his reaction was maybe too strong, i mean he should note that he is against the second "final" decision, or with whole process, play win or lose, etc... never come back, but leaving in the middle of the tourney is disrespectful for averyone (even if he thinks he was not respected too)... fenix could do some fair play too giving up game 2, but maybe thats too much...
fenix wins game 1 fenix d/c game 2 judges/dlee rule strelok victory
fenix/strelok play game 3, strelok wins
5 days later judges reverse the ruling (presumably b/c fenix took exception to the game 2 ruling) after consulting with artosis and say series should be replayed starting from game 2
strelok says no either we start it all over or say i won game 2 or i quit. then he quits?
Makes perfect sense why it should be 1-1 and even 0-0 sort of makes sense. Strelok had an advantage in game 2 and Fenix D/Cs. Maybe Fenix D/Cs because he is losing? Who knows. Regardless, if Strelok had a advantage it is logical that the game should go to him. Thus, 1-1 is plausible. However; 0-0 is essentially the same as 1-1, it is tied but because there was a D/C in game 2 it could make sense to just start over at 0-0 and do a new Bo3 instead of making it 1-1 and having a single deciding game next as game 2 is a bit ambiguous.
Now whether Strelokk had a sizeable advantage or not is what is up for debate and none of us here have any idea if he did or not. It seems that Lipton and SDM felt that he did, but Artosis did not and convinced everyone else that the advantage was not big enough to warrant giving him the game and that it should be replayed.
Then you throw in that SDM and Lipton told Strelok they had ruled in his favor for game 2 and then a few days later the decision is suddenly reversed and yea, you can understand why Strelok would be pissed. To argue that Strelok is trying to cheat or be amoral is simply garbage.
On June 30 2009 10:12 Rekrul wrote: And if any of you were wondering. I just asked some people who know everything about the situation.
Fact 1: Daniel Lee didn't even watch the replay.
Fact 2: The reason why it was "FIVE DAYS" is because Strelok was at a LAN and didn't bother checking his email for that extent of time.
WHATS UP NOW?
rekrul you realize you could've just read the OP right?
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: I am public person. I have fans, haters, people who just follow my rezults. That's why i feel responsible to make such statement. I got trouble in my match against Fenix in Ro8 Valor. I don't want to explain the details of complaint fully, because i don't want flame war starting. Lipton, the main runner of the tournament got letters from both sides with all their arguments, after what he made "final decision". Fenix didn't like it and refused to accept it and continue series. I talked to Daniel Lee, the organizator of this tournament. He also agreed with my arguments and made his "final decision" which was nearly the same with Liptons one. Sounds very nice and professional, yeah? After that i went to Moscow to LAN finals for 2 days. I came back and saw the PM with Liptons words that he changes his "final decision" without having no new arguments or reasons. You know, i understand when girls in the shop, can't select between 2 dresses and change their decisions many times. But i really can't understand when serious men, professionals, change their decisions, "final decisions" as they call them, for many times. That is why i decided to drop off from the tournament. I drop off not because i think this decision is unfair (even though i think so), i drop because 2 from 3 "big bosses" of the professional tournament changed their final decision without having any new reasons or information in 5 days after making previous one. I feel sorry for people who wanted me to win and for people who just wanted to see good games between me and Fenix. I can only hope you will read my arguments and accept them.
Eugin "Strelok" Oparyshev.
I'd feel sorry for strelok regardless but.. he took the easy way out
On June 29 2009 23:40 Strelok. wrote: I won't reply more in this thread, because i already said all i wanted to.
On June 30 2009 13:28 Lamprey wrote: Makes perfect sense why it should be 1-1 and even 0-0 sort of makes sense. Strelok had an advantage in game 2 and Fenix D/Cs. Maybe Fenix D/Cs because he is losing? Who knows. Regardless, if Strelok had a advantage it is logical that the game should go to him. Thus, 1-1 is plausible. However; 0-0 is essentially the same as 1-1, it is tied but because there was a D/C in game 2 it could make sense to just start over at 0-0 and do a new Bo3 instead of making it 1-1 and having a single deciding game next as game 2 is a bit ambiguous.
Now whether Strelokk had a sizeable advantage or not is what is up for debate and none of us here have any idea if he did or not. It seems that Lipton and SDM felt that he did, but Artosis did not and convinced everyone else that the advantage was not big enough to warrant giving him the game and that it should be replayed.
Then you throw in that SDM and Lipton told Strelok they had ruled in his favor for game 2 and then a few days later the decision is suddenly reversed and yea, you can understand why Strelok would be pissed. To argue that Strelok is trying to cheat or be amoral is simply garbage.
You assume so much in your reasoning. SDM was a coach for a progaming team, I would think he would know if the game was favored one way or the other. If he made the final decision ofc. The point is we don't know what happened game 2 so we can't assume why their made their decisions and why they changed.
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote:I got trouble in my match against Fenix in Ro8 Valor. I don't want to explain the details of complaint fully, because i don't want flame war starting. Lipton, the main runner of the tournament got letters from both sides with all their arguments, after what he made "final decision". Fenix didn't like it and refused to accept it and continue series. I talked to Daniel Lee, the organizator of this tournament. He also agreed with my arguments and made his "final decision" which was nearly the same with Liptons one. Sounds very nice and professional, yeah? After that i went to Moscow to LAN finals for 2 days. I came back and saw the PM with Liptons words that he changes his "final decision" without having no new arguments or reasons.
I know he won't post anymore here, but I really want to know what Strelok's "argument" was when he talked to Lipton and SDM. If the game really was indeed close as Artosis says, then Strelok basically bullshitted when he asked for the win.
Seems to me Strelok lied, surprisingly go away with it(terrible decision by the judge), only to get caught later. Got pissed, threw a hissy fit, and quit.
If so, Fenix deserves to move on and Strelok deserves to be out of the tournament. And all is well.
On June 29 2009 22:55 Shikyo wrote: Also, rekrul's last post is just about how it should be. Stupid rules should NEVER, EVER, EVER be more important than common sense.
I agree, because stupid rules beating common sense is how the whole "ppp" thing happened.
Strelok is right to be annoyed that a decision was changed, however he is wrong to think he deserved to replay Game 1, or auto-win Game 2 unless he was rolling all over Fenix with a massive army and huge economy that could not possibly lose to a micro slip during a heated battle.
On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote: If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed. If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament. .
TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~
TSL was the best thought out and run foreign StarCraft Broodwar tournament ever, and probably the best there will ever be.
On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote: If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed. If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament. .
TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~
TSL was the best thought out and run foreign StarCraft Broodwar tournament ever, and probably the best there will ever be.
On June 30 2009 13:28 Lamprey wrote: Makes perfect sense why it should be 1-1 and even 0-0 sort of makes sense. Strelok had an advantage in game 2 and Fenix D/Cs. Maybe Fenix D/Cs because he is losing? Who knows. Regardless, if Strelok had a advantage it is logical that the game should go to him. Thus, 1-1 is plausible. However; 0-0 is essentially the same as 1-1, it is tied but because there was a D/C in game 2 it could make sense to just start over at 0-0 and do a new Bo3 instead of making it 1-1 and having a single deciding game next as game 2 is a bit ambiguous.
Now whether Strelokk had a sizeable advantage or not is what is up for debate and none of us here have any idea if he did or not. It seems that Lipton and SDM felt that he did, but Artosis did not and convinced everyone else that the advantage was not big enough to warrant giving him the game and that it should be replayed.
Then you throw in that SDM and Lipton told Strelok they had ruled in his favor for game 2 and then a few days later the decision is suddenly reversed and yea, you can understand why Strelok would be pissed. To argue that Strelok is trying to cheat or be amoral is simply garbage.
You assume so much in your reasoning. SDM was a coach for a progaming team, I would think he would know if the game was favored one way or the other. If he made the final decision ofc. The point is we don't know what happened game 2 so we can't assume why their made their decisions and why they changed.
SDM didn't watch the replay initially, he just said OK to Lipton, so he couldn't have known if Strelok had a winning advantage. Artosis bringing the issue up probably got him to watch the replay, realize it was too close, then call it a regame.
On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote: If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed. If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament. .
TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~
TSL was the best thought out and run foreign StarCraft Broodwar tournament ever, and probably the best there will ever be.
artosis' are better, although less high profile so with less things to potentially go wrong.
nothing can beat having 1 person who knows what theyre doing making all decisions on a case by case basis.
I agree, we could've ran TSL better, and some of the credit for how smoothly and efficiently it ran should go to the players for showing up every time (and thus, by proxy, to the money / prestige that enticed them to show up so consistently). TSL just seems super-efficiently run because its compared to so many foreigner tournaments that end up like train wrecks because of bad admin decisions, no shows, delays, or lack of proper coverage.
On June 30 2009 15:29 Hot_Bid wrote: I agree, we could've ran TSL better, and some of the credit for how smoothly and efficiently it ran should go to the players for showing up every time (and thus, by proxy, to the money / prestige that enticed them to show up so consistently). TSL just seems super-efficiently run because its compared to so many foreigner tournaments that end up like train wrecks because of bad admin decisions, no shows, delays, or lack of proper coverage.
It's good to know that you are thinking about improvements for TSL2, whenever that may be.
In baseball, an umpire's ruling cannot be contested. Merely touching the umpire can have you thrown out of the game.
American football in recent years added the Instant-Replay Challenge for cases when coaches disagree with referees. A team may use a timeout to have a play reviewed immediately after it is called. Once a play has been reviewed, the ruling is final.
I have organized a major tournament, and we (the admins) agreed ahead of time that our referees would have total arbitration. You need to make a decision and move on. You cannot go back in time and nullify all subsequent actions.
The judge is never wrong. A good judge knows he is infallible and sticks to his guns.
On June 30 2009 15:55 mmp wrote: In baseball, an umpire's ruling cannot be contested. Merely touching the umpire can have you thrown out of the game.
American football in recent years added the Instant-Replay Challenge for cases when coaches disagree with referees. A team may use a timeout to have a play reviewed immediately after it is called. Once a play has been reviewed, the ruling is final.
I have organized a major tournament, and we (the admins) agreed ahead of time that our referees would have total arbitration. You need to make a decision and move on. You cannot go back in time and nullify all subsequent actions.
The judge is never wrong. A good judge knows he is infallible and sticks to his guns.
On June 30 2009 15:55 mmp wrote: In baseball, an umpire's ruling cannot be contested. Merely touching the umpire can have you thrown out of the game.
American football in recent years added the Instant-Replay Challenge for cases when coaches disagree with referees. A team may use a timeout to have a play reviewed immediately after it is called. Once a play has been reviewed, the ruling is final.
I have organized a major tournament, and we (the admins) agreed ahead of time that our referees would have total arbitration. You need to make a decision and move on. You cannot go back in time and nullify all subsequent actions.
The judge is never wrong. A good judge knows he is infallible and sticks to his guns.
A good judge got at least a knowhow in the game he judges and is not totaly newbish...
On June 30 2009 15:55 mmp wrote: In baseball, an umpire's ruling cannot be contested. Merely touching the umpire can have you thrown out of the game.
American football in recent years added the Instant-Replay Challenge for cases when coaches disagree with referees. A team may use a timeout to have a play reviewed immediately after it is called. Once a play has been reviewed, the ruling is final.
I have organized a major tournament, and we (the admins) agreed ahead of time that our referees would have total arbitration. You need to make a decision and move on. You cannot go back in time and nullify all subsequent actions.
The judge is never wrong. A good judge knows he is infallible and sticks to his guns.
Calling Lipton a good judge is questionable.
Unfortunately, the tournament needs to have rules and abide by them. If they choose a bad judge then the organizers are to blame, not the players. Regardless, the tournament as a whole must go on.
If both players could agree on an alternate outcome, then there is no problem. If not, then the original ruling should hold. It simply isn't fair to make the original winner risk loss in a rematch.
On June 30 2009 10:53 fffff5 wrote: apparently if you're a teamliquid admin you're allowed to flood the forum with shitty troll posts.
if certain admins of this site didn't have such hubris this community would be so much stronger.
You're right but you worded it wrong. They have a strong, but small community. That's what happens when there is social stratification, classes, if you will. It's like the Amish people, every strong and tight-knit, but very small.
hahaha, tl admins aka amish people, sweet.
Anyway, this seems to be dumb arguments by both sides. Everyone saying the decision changed is right, is right... and that is my opinion, but it's also the truth, just as the sky is blue. Streloks entire argument is illogical, "final decision." It was your parents final decision to give birth to you, but your dad could've coathangered your mom because she knew you would come out with down syndrome. (example, not literal I know nothing about you lol) But, regardless, just because YOU went to a LAN doesn't mean VALOR is responsible lol... that's petty as shit.
example: You leave your job and go on vacation without any notice... you come back and you're fired.
Anyway the people arguing for Strelok are mere fanboys and or anti-Media people. I can completely understand the anti-Media movement, but why are you guys trolling about a lost cause? This whole thread is shambles minus rekrul running through it balls deep.
On June 30 2009 10:53 fffff5 wrote: apparently if you're a teamliquid admin you're allowed to flood the forum with shitty troll posts.
if certain admins of this site didn't have such hubris this community would be so much stronger.
You're right but you worded it wrong. They have a strong, but small community. That's what happens when there is social stratification, classes, if you will. It's like the Amish people, every strong and tight-knit, but very small.
hahaha, tl admins aka amish people, sweet.
Anyway, this seems to be dumb arguments by both sides. Everyone saying the decision changed is right, is right... and that is my opinion, but it's also the truth, just as the sky is blue. Streloks entire argument is illogical, "final decision." It was your parents final decision to give birth to you, but your dad could've coathangered your mom because she knew you would come out with down syndrome. (example, not literal I know nothing about you lol) But, regardless, just because YOU went to a LAN doesn't mean VALOR is responsible lol... that's petty as shit.
example: You leave your job and go on vacation without any notice... you come back and you're fired.
Anyway the people arguing for Strelok are mere fanboys and or anti-Media people. I can completely understand the anti-Media movement, but why are you guys trolling about a lost cause? This whole thread is shambles minus rekrul running through it balls deep.
Except that Strelok had a really good point - changing a ruling days after they make their "final decision" completely ruins the integrity and fairness of the entire matchup and completely botches the whole thing.
Lipton shouldn't've been in charge of making any "final" decisions that involve an in-game dispute if he is so ignorant of broodwar. That said, a final decision should be final.
On June 30 2009 00:47 Bifur wrote: If the game 2 was really very close, it should be replayed. If the Lipton behaved bad as a judge, he should be banned as a judge for the rest of the tournament. .
TSL never had these problems! ~sticks nose in the air like asshole~
TSL was the best thought out and run foreign StarCraft Broodwar tournament ever, and probably the best there will ever be.
artosis' are better, although less high profile so with less things to potentially go wrong.
nothing can beat having 1 person who knows what theyre doing making all decisions on a case by case basis.
Artosis' tournaments better than TSL? TSL was competitive, administrated well, and got the whole community involved for both players and spectators which is a whole different level than any of the recent tourneys have accomplished.
better run, he means, and he's right. you absolutely can't beat an administration that places every decision, case by case, in the hands of someone as capable and passionate as artosis
After that i went to Moscow to LAN finals for 2 days. I came back and saw the PM with Liptons words that he changes his "final decision" without having no new arguments or reasons.
they didn't change it days after.
Correcting a wrong decision with a right one is the CORRECT thing to do. Valor admins did the right thing. Yes, it makes them look bad because they made the wrong decision in the first place, but that's all.
Like in any sports, if they call a goal, but on later review they determine that it wasn't' a goal, they FIX it. They don't' just let that goal stand.
integrity? my ass, an entire tournaments integrity isnt at jeopardy because someone cries about a controversial decision in which both sides are wrong, but ultimately one of them makes it right. So you're saying you've never made a mistake and completely reversed it later? Did it take away your integrity? No, really let me know. I want to know how pitiful you are. Integrity, fuck off
Strelok has a valid complaint about a decision being changed days later after he was given a "final" decision from two of the three tournament administrators, regardless of whether the call itself was valid.
well its pretty obvious whats going on here. Nobody is right, its rules vs players vs player vs rules.
artosis and especially rekrul you both come off as VERY biased. artosis is basically purely defending his own decision.
You agreed to run the Valor tournament as a team of admins, you can't change decisions of one admin when he has already told a player a result over 'X' amount of time. Its a pretty basic and logical equation, minus the biased rage you failed as admins, and now BOTH players are taking fault for it.
Okay, this argument is pointless beyond belief but for the sake of it...
ex.
Ro8 Strelok beats Fenix
Ro4 begins: Strelok vs X Admin: oh we fucked up replay vs Fenix Strelok: WTF, you made your decision Admin: Too bad go play...
Now what would you do in this situation? I think it's kinda obvious.
Admins admit they fucked up, but shouldn't punish the player they awarded with the "technical win" It was the admins who fucked up not the players so why should a player that was awarded by the admin have to pay for the admins poor decision?
Fair Play? Yes, but at what cost towards the tournament as a whole?
If a decision is BAD ( as it seems the first decision was the bad one ) it is actually GOOD if the decision gets reversed. Thats exactly what happened , right ?
It doesnt matter that much at all that it was called a ' final decision '. I mean would you find it good if someone gets the death penalty because it was the 'final decision' when he actually after weeks of proper research was found to be not guilty..
Guys just use your brain..
If the so called 'final decision' was bad, wrong, false, not the best ( name it however u want ) it is absolutely appropriate to change the decision..
and strelok using this as a reason to quit this tournament is in my opinion very childish and immature behaviour..
On June 30 2009 17:15 Louder wrote: Strelok has a valid complaint about a decision being changed days later after he was given a "final" decision from two of the three tournament administrators, regardless of whether the call itself was valid.
It's a valid complaint, yes, but it doesn't mean that he should throw a temper tantrum about it.
If Strelok does not want to play in a tournament where bad decisions are corrected, then he doesn't have to. He should drop out. And he is. So all is well.
@Aurious: That's a fair argument, but you should look at it from Fenix's side as well. An unfair decision is made, and Fenix doesn't make top 8 because of it. Then the unfair decision is miraculously fixed! And Leta doesn't get a game loss for typing ppp! This is a good thing!
I think it's safe to say now that this tournament is a failure as it failed to introduce foreigners to Korea in a good light. The lack of quality is understandable because the contestants don't practice 10+ hours a day as the koreans do. The problem lies in their professionalism. It was bad enough to have someone talk trash and swear in a televised game, but to have someone quit merely because he didn't like the decision is childish and unprofessional. Don't expect the koreans to take you guys seriously if you aren't even even going to take each other or the game seriously.
While I understand some of the points made in this thread I can say that Artosis got it right. Besides that Rekruls posts are the only thing that kept me reading through all this stuff :D.
Strelok should not have quit. I see no reason (besides some which Rekrul already pointed out) for him to quit. Besides that... well there is not much to say...
Strelok, you are overreacting. Your frustration can be understood, but the "I'm not playing with you anymore" is so childish. Your comparison of the admins to the girls who can't decide on a dress is wrong. They have not switched from one decision to another on a whim, but they have corrected an obviously wrong decision. Even more, they agreed to make themselves look like asses but in return have a fairer tournament, which you, like a proper sports man, should respect.
That you had a "better position" in game 2 is not enough to give it to you, only if you had a very clear advantage (3 mining bases vs 1 or something of that sorts) then it should have been ruled in your favor.
Your decision to drop out only makes it worse for people supporting you and cheering for you.
On June 30 2009 17:40 MaGic~PhiL wrote: If a decision is BAD ( as it seems the first decision was the bad one ) it is actually GOOD if the decision gets reversed. Thats exactly what happened , right ?
Exactly, being inert when it comes to bad decisions is always bad, though in reply to one point above by another if the decision had been made on say game #3 then it probably would not have been reversed if Strelok had played the RO 4 game, but that would be more because you've gone beyond the point of no return, not because it was the fair decision.
Its understandable that Strelok is pissed off, that's only natural, but sh*t happens the decision doesn't stop Strelok from going out and 2-0ing Fenix to take it 2-1, if I was Strelok I'd rather try and do that than just let Fenix into the semis and potentially get prize money that I could have had.
Off topic; White-Ra Vs Baby as the special match No effin way, can't wait
On June 30 2009 19:20 Velr wrote: There are only 3 fair outcomes that could have been made:
A: If Strelok had a CLEAR like in FUCKING CLEAR advantage over Fenix he should have gotten a win.
B: Strelok had not that big of an advantage: Replay.
C: Strelok is a nice guy: Replay.
But it came out to
D: Drama!
"A" should be clarified as "fenix was in an unwinnable situation barring strelok getting up and walking away from his computer for the rest of the game"
Please, tell me when you have ever replayed an entire series because 1 game there was a disconnect. That's right, it just doesn't happen! Artosis is 100% right for sticking by his guns. Tournaments are very hard to run (trust me on this) and Lipton probably felt pressure and made a bad decision. By no means does this mean other, more experienced admins can't come back to make the correct decision that is GOOD FOR THE TOURNAMENT.
It doesn't matter if Strelok received confirmation from 2 admins, fact is what he was asking for was ridiculous and as as player like himself who has played in SO many events, he should know this by now.
On June 30 2009 10:17 Rekrul wrote: In life I surround myself only with people who have a real understanding of morals, ethics, trust, and common sense.
Does not compute.
------
In other news, I lay fault on the organizers. The fact that Artosis had to step in to make sure this was sorted out is sad.
On June 30 2009 17:05 Game wrote: integrity? my ass, an entire tournaments integrity isnt at jeopardy because someone cries about a controversial decision in which both sides are wrong, but ultimately one of them makes it right. So you're saying you've never made a mistake and completely reversed it later? Did it take away your integrity? No, really let me know. I want to know how pitiful you are. Integrity, fuck off
Completely irrelevant you crying prick. This is a major tournament that is widely advertised and endorsed by GOMTV. It ruins the integrity because days after the decision it was reversed - which makes it inherently unfair. There is no way you can continue playing that match and say that its fair at all because the situation has changed, the players have had more time to practice (or not practice because they may have been led to believe that it's over), etc.... Stop being such a fucking douchebag you arrogant ass.
There's one big thing missing here (maybe I just didn't catch it): What actually happened? After the admins decision, did they play game 3? Or did Artosis come in right away and stop the whole thing? Because it seems like they should have played and there should have been results, which are very important to the discussion.
On June 30 2009 19:20 Velr wrote: There are only 3 fair outcomes that could have been made:
A: If Strelok had a CLEAR like in FUCKING CLEAR advantage over Fenix he should have gotten a win.
B: Strelok had not that big of an advantage: Replay.
C: Strelok is a nice guy: Replay.
But it came out to
D: Drama!
"A" should be clarified as "fenix was in an unwinnable situation barring strelok getting up and walking away from his computer for the rest of the game"
You mean like during nony vs f91 liquibition right?
On June 30 2009 17:21 VarsityUser wrote: well its pretty obvious whats going on here. Nobody is right, its rules vs players vs player vs rules.
artosis and especially rekrul you both come off as VERY biased. artosis is basically purely defending his own decision.
You agreed to run the Valor tournament as a team of admins, you can't change decisions of one admin when he has already told a player a result over 'X' amount of time. Its a pretty basic and logical equation, minus the biased rage you failed as admins, and now BOTH players are taking fault for it.
it's a valid complaint and a valid solution. There is nothing to be biased about.
I really hope you re-consider your decision to drop out... I'm sure you can beat Fenix twice and a lot of people are cheering for you. Really seems silly considering the situation.
What are rules? why do we need them? why do people follow rules of a game? without rules people will allied mine, people will use wall hack, people will have 20k mineral 2 mins into the game, map hacks, wowwalker, D2bots, Rules are for the protection of something we call fair play.
Now in this situation, where the very same rules we put in places are impeding the "fair play" it is designed to protect. then the rules must be ignored in order to serve its original purpose: "protect fair play"
One situation in which we can all agree on is if Kesp reversed their decision on gorush for typing the wrong thing in game, admitted they made a mistake, because the rules are trying to promote fair play. screwing gorush out of their game was not fair play, since he did not lost the game fair and square.
Let's look at this similar e situation, if "final decision" is indeed a rule that designed to protects fair play, and that same very rule is impeding fair play then fuck the rules, change that final decision, and promote fair play.
Strelot you need to do some critical thinking before your actions, try to take emotion out of your decisions.
On June 29 2009 20:51 Strelok. wrote: You know, i understand when girls in the shop, can't select between 2 dresses and change their decisions many times. But i really can't understand when serious men, professionals, change their decisions, "final decisions" as they call them, for many times.
Strelok, this is unacceptable misogyny and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Your contention that it is wrong to reverse a poor decision is absurd. Should we hang an innocent man because a judge said his ruling was "final"? Kudos to Valor for correcting their mistake, accepting fault, and putting in the time and effort to hold this tournament in the first place.
fuck. sad that strelok decided to drop out i hate valor tournament and daniel lee even more. I used to like him but after him being such an unprofessional douche at the first round of VODded valor tour and now this... I don't enjoy gom matches anymore ;/
edit: i agree that if game is close, then its replay of that game. but fuck no you don't go and change your final decisions ;/
On July 01 2009 20:54 rei wrote: What are rules? why do we need them? why do people follow rules of a game? without rules people will allied mine, people will use wall hack, people will have 20k mineral 2 mins into the game, map hacks, wowwalker, D2bots, Rules are for the protection of something we call fair play.
Now in this situation, where the very same rules we put in places are impeding the "fair play" it is designed to protect. then the rules must be ignored in order to serve its original purpose: "protect fair play"
One situation in which we can all agree on is if Kesp reversed their decision on gorush for typing the wrong thing in game, admitted they made a mistake, because the rules are trying to promote fair play. screwing gorush out of their game was not fair play, since he did not lost the game fair and square.
Let's look at this similar e situation, if "final decision" is indeed a rule that designed to protects fair play, and that same very rule is impeding fair play then fuck the rules, change that final decision, and promote fair play.
Strelot you need to do some critical thinking before your actions, try to take emotion out of your decisions.
I was playing in a poker tournament in Macau. I was going pretty far and had a big stack. I put out a huge bluff on this guy but he called me. I showed my hand. Then he showed me a hand that beat mine but then accidentally flipped it upside down and threw it into the muck. The rules state that if you do this your hand is dead. That means I win the hand. This pot was worth a lof of money in equity for me. One faggot kid chimed up and he's like "YO THATS UR POT MAN HE MUCKED IT." I looked at the kid like he was a fucking idiot. The dealer was trying to ship me the pot. "Give him the pot." I said. Kids like "no dude thats ur pot..."
"GIVE HIM THE FUCKKKKING POT."
The idiot that mucked his hand had no idea what was going on. But justice was had. I did not deserve those chips. He made the right call. Some other guy at the table said "WOW, respect." Just another day in the life.
Example 2:
Similar situaion. I called a huge turn bet with a straight flush draw (king jack high) on a QTssxx board and then missed on the the river. I checked and the other guy checked. I slammed my hand down face up as always do. He then just like insta mucked his hand. The dealer shipped me the pot then the guy (who is a genuinely nice guy) was like "OMG I HAD KJ TOO I THOUGHT U HAD SOMETHING BETTER BY THE WAY U FLIPPED UR HAND UP SO I JUST MUCKED."
I looked him in the eye, "are you serious?" "Yes!" He was not lying to me. I then counted the pot and gave him half of it.
BUT!!! I guess not everyone can be the man.
this thread is about how other people made wrong decisions, not about how much of a man you are
Wrong decisions were made. Wrong decisions were corrected and balance was restored. Now this little girl is whining.
While I do possess male genetalia and am a man, what I said is that I am THE man.
your grosely mis informed, you have very big problems dude.
i think the 1-1 or start again was quite fair, because fenix seems like the kinda guy who would dis on purpose. (he spammed artosis) these kinda wankers do this kinda shit, its in their nature.
think about it, if he did, the 1-1 is diserved as strelok wins, so starting again is a viable option..
Seems to me like Strelok didn't have a problem with keeping quiet when he was about to receive a free win, and then went nuts when one of the most trusted and well known foreign Starcraft organizers made the right change. This "Final Decision" argument just seems weak, as well as the "5 Days" thing. I don't understand why he dropped out, that's basically giving Fenix a free win because he himself couldn't get one.
On June 29 2009 22:45 StorZerg wrote: If a store asst manager (ie gamestop) prices a rock band kit for $25 instead of $200 they must sell it at that price. Store manager cannot say "ops miss priced" and put the correct sticker on. The store is obligated to sell the rock band kit at the marked price. (though the asst manager may get fired)
you're clearly wrong.
even something shown in a display-window with a price on it... that's called an offer to commonality or something like that (right now i can't recall the english word for it)
which means he is not bound to it. even advertisement with a prize is not actually mandatory
he will say "sorry, that was a mistake... do you want your purchase anyways?" and you will have to take it or leave it.
And the most stupid thing is that all of this could have been evaded. Strelok isn't competing, Fenix got a free win which isn't too entertaining game wise, unless you love the drama then it is entertaining. But the most important thing is that now someone will think worse of either Strelok, Artosis or anyone of the three or maybe all organizers of the Valor tournament. I have my biases for quite some time (it wasn't like that but it changed because of minor things stacking up) and because of that I'm more behind Strelok.
Your opponent discs on you when you may have, what, an 80% chance to win. 80% of the time the first decision (to award the game to Strelok) is better. 20% of the time, the second decision (to make them replay the game) is better. If you want to bitch about anyone, how about Fenix, who is already up a game (a very lame game at that), going to artosis to try to get the decision reversed when he knew he was most likely going to lose?
Or, Maybe it was just a disc. with Strelok having only a 55% chance of winning. Then it would make sense to just make them replay the game.
The really important thing was how close that second game was. We were going to see it so we could decide on our own if that decision was good. But, they didn't show the game, which is really lame. It also makes it the first situation (Strelok getting screwed) look more likely.
ED: Ok, I watched Artosis' state of the game explanation. Too close to call, and it was definitely more like oh, Strelok might have a 55% chance of winning, so the right decision was made in the end.
Is it just me or even if they said "our decision is..." rather than "our final decision is..." then went and changed it as they did, Sterlok would still be angry about it all? /shrug...
On July 04 2009 01:20 swat wrote: Is it just me or even if they said "our decision is..." rather than "our final decision is..." then went and changed it as they did, Sterlok would still be angry about it all? /shrug...
I just watched the Artosis overview of the last second of the disconnect game. Strelok has an advantage, but it's clear that Fenix could've come back, and it wasn't a sure thing. It should've been replayed.
sorry but after watching this: http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s03&movNum=307 strelok had a clear advantage, from a p users point of view this is how i see it; fenix didnt have alot of probes, 70% of his probes arnt mining, strelok has the upg+unit advantage and his eco+tech is kicked in, fenix has all his units scattered around the map, strelok's 4th cc is about to finish so he was going to setup on the expansion close to fenix's double exp on the bottom left side of the map(fenix wouldnt be able to defend the push through the bridges and his arb tech is way too weak, plus with his new exp almost done strelok would have easily been able to turret up the bridge area and setup a strong push), also from personal experience this would have been the perfect situation for t to attack because p's scattered all across the map and is distracted, strelok is about to exp on the 9oclock base so for sure hes going to be moving out in that area, also fenix's probes arnt mining so his eco isnt going to be strong in the early stages so even if(IF which i cant see that happening) he manages to hold off streloks attack strelok is going to be able to reinforce his army alot faster than fenix, the only thing i would have liked to see is t's factory count and how many addons he had but it wasnt shown ;/
fenix's eco wouldnt have kicked in before t's rush, this situation on a different map is debatable but on desti i dont like fenix's position, however seeing as it is bw and that anything could happen the ruling i would have given would have had to do with whoever disced, if strelok disced the game would have been replayed but if fenix disced i would have given the win to strelok (i still have no idea which player disced)
edit: i didnt mention this on purpose but you also have to take into account that fenix didnt have anything to defend his bottom left exp when his probes were afked on his geyser, not only didnt he have an ob to see the vults moving out(he wouldnt have had time to move his probes) but he also doesnt have any units around his exp, i didnt mention this because when theres a disc you cant assume what is going to happen, but each coin has two sides so you have to look at both possibilities (one is strelok doesnt notice anything and keeps his vult in his base and the other is he notices it and harasses it, however in this situation if your in fenix's position then your relying on a luck factor)
On June 30 2009 05:18 Wurzelbrumpft wrote: maybe the game was even at that point, but that can still mean that it is heavily in favour of one person over the other. i dont have facts, but strelok may have played fenix often and knows that he wont lose in the later stages of the game. After all fenix is known for being a cheesy faggot
What the fuck is trash like this doing posting here?
Hmmn, is it just me or is thread exceptionally bad? I agree with attackzergs comments.
There's been some new developments with information regarding the Valor Tournament, and I'm ready to share my findings. After conducting a number of interviews over the last 10 years I've methodically gotten to the bottom of the issue, and long story short, both Artosis and Strelok have good points and the actual conflict lies more in a grey area than a black and white one. I'll be formatting my post here in a second so that the information and evidence presented here is readable and comprehensive. Stay tuned!
On March 07 2019 06:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: There's been some new developments with information regarding the Valor Tournament, and I'm ready to share my findings. After conducting a number of interviews over the last 10 years I've methodically gotten to the bottom of the issue, and long story short, both Artosis and Strelok have good points and the actual conflict lies more in a grey area than a black and white one. I'll be formatting my post here in a second so that the information and evidence presented here is readable and comprehensive. Stay tuned!
On March 07 2019 06:13 Cele wrote: Ergh. Why exactly are we necroing this thread..?
In early 2009 a shadow government by the name of "LA PREU LEU FORTUI" running out of the Ukraine began implementing a series of radical social changes throughout the country. By July of that year professional Starcraft Broodwar player, Strelok, was taking the world by storm with his inspired Terran play. In an effort to keep the Ukraine from garnering any additional attention during that summer, LA PREU LEU FORTUI conspired to disconnect Strelok from game 2 of the Valor Tournament, launching a series of arguments and drama around the succeeding events. Strelok, you could say, was robbed.
Personally, I don’t think anyone should be banned over the ordeal. Bizarre is an understatement to describe it all but it’s almost 10 years in the past. What’s important is that the truth gets out there and Strelok’s name be cleared from the controversy.
On June 29 2009 22:32 nataziel wrote: I dunno, sounds like strelok kind of has a point, he's not saying that anything the referees have said is wrong, just that they went back on their word. By the same token, why leave? Worst case scenario you play fenix and lose... best case, you win the tournament. Strelok is in no way badmouthing sdm or artosis, he's saying they DO know more about starcraft than him, he's just pissed off that they changed their decision. Both sides have fair arguments, but I just think it's a bit stupid to turn around and pull out because of something like this.
No! Actually what he should have done is this! After the disconnect happened said "Well that sucks ok replay gogo."
Thats what a normal person would do.
But instead he chooses to act like a little girl that just got farted on.
LOL, this thread is amazing. I'm glad you necro'd this post.
On March 07 2019 06:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: There's been some new developments with information regarding the Valor Tournament, and I'm ready to share my findings. After conducting a number of interviews over the last 10 years I've methodically gotten to the bottom of the issue, and long story short, both Artosis and Strelok have good points and the actual conflict lies more in a grey area than a black and white one. I'll be formatting my post here in a second so that the information and evidence presented here is readable and comprehensive. Stay tuned!
I think at this point maybe Strelok's and Fenix's children can have a rematch
On March 07 2019 06:13 Cele wrote: Ergh. Why exactly are we necroing this thread..?
Honestly, the broodwar section of teamliquid is so inactive these days that I don't even mind if people are necroing threads.
100% lol. Also this thread is great (seemingly a classic 'both sides have good points but are completely unwilling to acknowledge anything from the other side') and I had no idea about it.
On March 07 2019 06:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: There's been some new developments with information regarding the Valor Tournament, and I'm ready to share my findings. After conducting a number of interviews over the last 10 years I've methodically gotten to the bottom of the issue, and long story short, both Artosis and Strelok have good points and the actual conflict lies more in a grey area than a black and white one. I'll be formatting my post here in a second so that the information and evidence presented here is readable and comprehensive. Stay tuned!
a new thread would be better then necroting a 10 year old one because people just read main story and not understand anything because is so old ... its before sc2 was realeased for gods sake
On March 07 2019 06:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: There's been some new developments with information regarding the Valor Tournament, and I'm ready to share my findings. After conducting a number of interviews over the last 10 years I've methodically gotten to the bottom of the issue, and long story short, both Artosis and Strelok have good points and the actual conflict lies more in a grey area than a black and white one. I'll be formatting my post here in a second so that the information and evidence presented here is readable and comprehensive. Stay tuned!
a new thread would be better then necroting a 10 year old one because people just read main story and not understand anything because is so old ... its before sc2 was realeased for gods sake
On March 07 2019 06:01 SweetNJoshSauce wrote: There's been some new developments with information regarding the Valor Tournament, and I'm ready to share my findings. After conducting a number of interviews over the last 10 years I've methodically gotten to the bottom of the issue, and long story short, both Artosis and Strelok have good points and the actual conflict lies more in a grey area than a black and white one. I'll be formatting my post here in a second so that the information and evidence presented here is readable and comprehensive. Stay tuned!
a new thread would be better then necroting a 10 year old one because people just read main story and not understand anything because is so old ... its before sc2 was realeased for gods sake
This is BW section not SC2 section. Who cares?
i just used it as timeframe how long it is ago to show its over 10 years ... so EVERYONE cares i think because its over 10 years ago and has nothn to do with sc2... dont get allergic just seeing it written dude xD
EPT
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