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Ya, first about the unrelated muta-muta thingie. I saw one 1.09 or 1.08 replay of H.O.T-Forever vs JJu where the game went far to late game with devourers & stuff. In that game I remember one of the bringing in overlords to take the splash damage. That is of course really efficient because of the +9 damage the mutals take from the acid spores 
a & b) Muta using opponent is probably forced to build spores too to be able to defend vs an early scourge user who rather easily can rape up small amounts of muta. A sunken (at least one or two) is required, that is not free, but in case of opponent not going to upgraded ling, scourgelings should be able to fend off his expansion or at least defend vs possible attacks. The opponent still needs to build up spore to his expansion too and sunken won't be bad for extreme safety. Upgraded lings that run to his back can do 'eavy damage. Ling production of course is nearly stopped at this point because some drone making. Sunken or two will be required yes, which is both expensive and giving him the advantage on that side. You also don't need too many drones at your exp to maintain production because of the highish drone count in your main.
c) In case of him expanding too, he'll need to use at least same amount of resources for drones, while you already get minerals with 'em. This is the point when you might be left back in troops but the advantage lost will be gained quite fast with the mining.
d) It's true it costs but hydras are cheaper than mutas.
Having 12 scourge with the mutals might be enough if they're well spread and don't go first. After hydras engage the mutalisks. Scourges come to help, making the muta either retreat or take heavy lossage.
In the beginning the scourge fleets should try to keep the muta count as low as possible of course so he won't have full peace of making up a mass fleet. This at least forces him to do at least one spore, or he will get scourgelinged to death. In my opinion the switch really costs only the tech used for it since expo protection will be quite much similar. The opponent might also be forced to go mass sunken which is more than expensive, is it not.
It would be nice to try this vs a good player such as yourself T_T; You have words of wisdom there.
Still you say you do not understand the point of combining hydra and scourge. If you take 2 gas, you'll have at least the same amount of gas your opponent has, probably more (of which some go to upgrades). Your opponent will most likely upgrade mutas and possibly lings too. These even the scales in numbers. You then have possibility to make 2 hydras and 2 scourges for the price of one mutalisk. However you're hatches might not be able to produce both so the main weight is to be put on hydra. Extra gas goes pretty nicely on the upgrades which make the mass superior imo. Hmmn, It would require a lot of testing and my victories with this strat might've been just a) luck b) lack of skill on opponent side or c) hack which some people claim :DD haha. Ya
Mayb we'll zvz some time  (
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On August 03 2003 17:47 Waxangel wrote:
You need to make a TON of drones to do what you're saying. You can't do that while you're ling/scouring, since every unit counts then. That means you'll have to do it after you expand and have sunk/spore to make up for missing troops. You'll die there unless you're god ;(
Well then I don't have to worry about dying, do I? :D
And you really don't need that many drones. The build I use gives better eco than normal korean builds and still gives possibility to pressure early on. After expansion is gotten, a little moval of drones might not be a bad idea to the exp. Then make up a few drones to have 'bout 8-9 in both mineral bases + at least 3 at gas, little later second gas mayb too - I've managed to get along with one gas quite well with the cost of not so many scourges. It is true that the defence costs quite a lot but opponent will probably do the same and maybe even go mass sunk which costs hell lot as I replied to tomson already
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United States33638 Posts
On August 03 2003 17:56 Muhweli wrote: Show nested quote +On August 03 2003 17:47 Waxangel wrote:
You need to make a TON of drones to do what you're saying. You can't do that while you're ling/scouring, since every unit counts then. That means you'll have to do it after you expand and have sunk/spore to make up for missing troops. You'll die there unless you're god ;( Well then I don't have to worry about dying, do I? :D And you really don't need that many drones. The build I use gives better eco than normal korean builds and still gives possibility to pressure early on. After expansion is gotten, a little moval of drones might not be a bad idea to the exp. Then make up a few drones to have 'bout 8-9 in both mineral bases + at least 3 at gas, little later second gas mayb too - I've managed to get along with one gas quite well with the cost of not so many scourges. It is true that the defence costs quite a lot but opponent will probably do the same and maybe even go mass sunk which costs hell lot as I replied to tomson already
that's a gazillion drones you want for free T_T
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Soooo... Here is one of my first tryouts. In this rep however I upgraded ling attack first, then armor, but it demonstrates the idea quite well. I however cannot say this dood is too good but I didn't need to micro the hydra nearly at all in the end
Strategical tryout vs M1-GonX
I hope the dood I played this against won't get mad ;D
[edit] So in this rep I do many things unlike I would do with the things I said. For example the attack for the lings + I make hardly no scourge at all in the late game
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Wax, the opponent will most probably be doing drones too. If not and he fails his attack, he will be left behind hell lot
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United States33638 Posts
On August 03 2003 18:07 Muhweli wrote: Wax, the opponent will most probably be doing drones too. If not and he fails his attack, he will be left behind hell lot
why would he :O
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So you're suggesting that he'll rather go one base vs the expansion you can hypothetically keep?
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That is a factor that would just increase the amount of advatage gotten from the earlier expand and it might be too late for him to expand then. 2 base hydra without lurks can probably with or without the help of scourge, rape the 1base mutal -_-;
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United States33638 Posts
On August 03 2003 18:28 Muhweli wrote:
That is a factor that would just increase the amount of advatage gotten from the earlier expand and it might be too late for him to expand then. 2 base hydra without lurks can probably with or without the help of scourge, rape the 1base mutal -_-;
if you're going scourge/ling, he's going to use all the larva he has on troops, as are you, until your exp completes. From there you can place some towers/power and start switching to hydras, while he can exp or make troops. Depending on how your scourge usage vs mutas was, chances are he's going to trample over you if he makes troops -.-
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There's always a chance. The one expanding first has the disadvantage because the opponent might get enough troops to run over him. This thing however exists in every zvz in my opinion. The strat trusts the few extra minerals gotten from larger amount of drones
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United States33638 Posts
On August 03 2003 19:21 Muhweli wrote: There's always a chance. The one expanding first has the disadvantage because the opponent might get enough troops to run over him. This thing however exists in every zvz in my opinion. The strat trusts the few extra minerals gotten from larger amount of drones
Then it's all about how well you can use your scourge. If you can use them to fuck up his muta so much that you can exp and power safe, you'll win doing anything -.-;;
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On August 03 2003 16:53 ShAsTa wrote: btw 2-2 hydra > muta and no it wasn't tsu. It was a game vs noenoe.
u lost vs noenoe?
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On August 03 2003 19:52 Waxangel wrote: Show nested quote +On August 03 2003 19:21 Muhweli wrote: There's always a chance. The one expanding first has the disadvantage because the opponent might get enough troops to run over him. This thing however exists in every zvz in my opinion. The strat trusts the few extra minerals gotten from larger amount of drones Then it's all about how well you can use your scourge. If you can use them to fuck up his muta so much that you can exp and power safe, you'll win doing anything -.-;;
Doing what I'm suggesting is hell lot sexier than mass mutal
[edited, cuz i pasted inside quote]
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hydras are most of the time raped cuz a single reason, mobility... lets say he see you exiting base, then he would kick the crap out of your main with his mutas, and if u split forces u would still beat the crap out of any half he wishes, so IMO hydras sux.
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On August 04 2003 01:12 baal wrote:
hydras are most of the time raped cuz a single reason, mobility... lets say he see you exiting base, then he would kick the crap out of your main with his mutas, and if u split forces u would still beat the crap out of any half he wishes, so IMO hydras sux.
Maybe I'll play you sometime. The mobility issue is pretty well discussed and is indeed thing that screws hydra users most. I also covered the fact that hydra proction won't stop upon leaving a the base so his timing has to be rather good to engage the main at the moment there is no hydra. That is why one should always try to eliminate all possible scoutlings etc from the level. We all should also remember that we have scourge to aid anywhere. It's still mobile. Maybe even queens to cast ensnare and parasite <-- That would reduce zergs mobility AND the force to fight.
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Oh yeah and as I also mentioned before, "hydras suck" comments are not the ones I like to hear...
There will soon be enough material for me to gather a larger article concerning the subject. So if you have more of these constructive comments, ideas, counter-ideas etc. I would like to hear them.
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basically mutes suck and are useless wen hydra have +2 armor/carapace and even so if they have gretaer mobility, wats to stop u fomr playing a hu dies first, cuz mutes kill buildings rather slow, hydras have the faster cool down rate compared to mutes and with hydras being able to gain the maximum agrregate attack rate compared to mutes its sensible to say that hydras>mutes... also dra effectiveness improves as the number of hydra increases (even in small numbers, it would surely increase alot more having an extra 8 or so) compare to mutes, its too expensive (gas wise) ;o~ (besides filers own mutes full stop.)
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Norway10161 Posts
I have not read all of the replies, but the original strategy seems good. But you will need good control to pull it off - pure scourge is not easy vs good muta user. I want to test it.
As I heard muhwelli is/was top3 zerg I don't forsee that to be a problem
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Norway10161 Posts
On August 03 2003 13:13 ShAsTa wrote: I didn't read all the post so it's possible this is already said but; There was this game where I went mut/ling vs another zerg who doesn't seem to be doing anything, only putting up spores 10 sec be4 I had muts. So I expanded and as the games continues I see he has hydras. Meanwhile I'm laughing my ass off cuz I think he's some newb. Well, after 10 mins or so (I really don't remember) he comes out with 20 hydras or so and completely destroys my army of I dunno 40 mutas and a bunch of lings (I really don't remember the numbers only that I had alot more ) Well when he came out his hydras we're 2-2 and practicly owned my mutas. He had put up 2 chambers and grading till he had 2-2 and then burst out and won the game. He said he already had kicked some koreans with that strat. Just to let you guys know there are other viable ways.
If you managed to lose 40 mutas to 20 hydras you must have ran them back and forth above the hydras for 20 minutes before you hit attack.
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there is a replay-link in this thread where muhweli tries out the strat, no one gonna comment on that instead of the theory?
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EPT
