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Snakeyez
Canada456 Posts
On August 03 2003 00:59 ret wrote: if scourge come put muta on hold, scourge will do that weird bug thing and get owned v-.- is that where they kinda run back and then come in? like there lining up there attack or something? :O | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
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CosMo
Japan136 Posts
To solve the 12 mutal target issue ---> +1 Muta Upgrade works art!! | ||
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
cooldowns a bitch | ||
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Hades
Canada927 Posts
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
scourgling seems sexy, i must try it one day | ||
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G-$$$
United States186 Posts
My question is, and I don't remember if you covered it, but isn't this strategy location dependent? I'm not really sure which way it favors you, but in general isn't mutaling > scourgeling at close spots? So maybe at like 12v3 you wouldn't be able to take the advantage you need. If your at far spots the scourge/ling would be effective, and if you can harm him with lings before he can run his mutas back I guess this could be effective, but wouldn't switching to hydras just take the pressure off him? I guess I just need to see some reps to really judge this. | ||
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ShAsTa
Belgium2841 Posts
There was this game where I went mut/ling vs another zerg who doesn't seem to be doing anything, only putting up spores 10 sec be4 I had muts. So I expanded and as the games continues I see he has hydras. Meanwhile I'm laughing my ass off cuz I think he's some newb. Well, after 10 mins or so (I really don't remember) he comes out with 20 hydras or so and completely destroys my army of I dunno 40 mutas and a bunch of lings (I really don't remember the numbers only that I had alot more  ) Well when he came out his hydras we're 2-2 and practicly owned my mutas. He had put up 2 chambers and grading till he had 2-2 and then burst out and won the game.He said he already had kicked some koreans with that strat. Just to let you guys know there are other viable ways. | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
AttackZerg, the build you described is pretty much the one I use with a possibility of adding one drone before pool making it a bit more unsafe And I said the build will give you 12 scourge before he even has 6 mutes. That means that you'll have more scourges by the time he reaches 12 mutas. The build is very happy in production and gas (if you wouldn't do anything else like the ling upgrade etc) would give you ability to make up to 6 mutals right after spire is complete (well actually 5 mutas and 2 scourge without that extra drone). So the gas should be enough.And yes the strat is somewhat position dependant, it's better to just go upgraded lings later on maybe muta or scourgeling from 12-3. Those positions suck in every mu of the game. The greatest problem is the fact that mutalisks can go to your back when you leave your base. Depending on his muta count I have always at least 3 spores (which is not enough to stop the hurricane coming) in my base mayb add fourth. Your opponent needs to have good timing on this, because as you remember, you've rallied at least one hat to your main (if you have 4, then 2 would be wise). So as long as you're there, supported by spores, he's not attacking for quite sure. Then when you leave your base, you'll still continue on producing more and more. So he needs to attack right after you've left or you'll have more hydra to defend with (which probably ain't enough but might scare him away But as we know, the same risks exist in muta vs muta too. When you engage opponent main, he might already be engaging yours. Your opponent probably places scoutlings all over the map to see your doings. Because of your upgrade superiority, your scoutlings should be able to rape them quite easily, even alone. And preventing expansions with burrow might not be a bad idea (as said) Drops would be one way to do the same to him but it again costs some money. However he pretty much is unable to defend his main if you get to drop your troops there. I would have one replay to show pretty accurately what I mean but I don't think I am able to upload it anywhere "by that point you would be so far behind in the ground war", lurkers will be the ones to handle ground. Hydras supported by 3 lurkers can kill 10000000 lings  You also have good armor upgrades to prevent muta damage and splash damage for taking full effect. You'll probably have attack upgrade too. And considering that I expanded and my opponent did not, I have 2 gasses at use. Giving me the lil' productional advantage. And because in the beginning I upgraded armor, not attack to the lings, the effect is pretty much the same except for the carapace also being upgrade to the hydras to be hatched which are then armor upgraded.And I don't see how much more lings could he have since the beginning was quite much the same for both. If he goes 3hat, that will be what's you're doing and would mean he goes just scourge - meaning you can make more ling less scourge. CosMo, good point Yet many people (such as me) first upgrade muta carapace for the effectiveness sake. It reduces the damage of the splashes too And hades, from the point when I'll be "far behind" in air war, I'll already have hydras to kill mutes. If you put one muta vs one armor upgraded hydra, who do you think will win? And since you can get in addition to the hydra 2 scourges with the price of one muta... ShAsTa, probably Tsu ;DDD hehe He used to go one base 2 evo upgrade hyt vs korean style and win. Yet it can be countered so easily. A lot easier to counter than 2 base hydra really Also, adding up queens (mayb instead of lurks to save money) wouldn't be a bad idea. Ensnared mutes would get eaten by hydra. This would also give some more possibilities. For example if the opponent decides to go counterstriken you're leaving to attack (this is pretty much the point when i take my mineral only [if i've not taken it before]) He engages your main, you go and ensnare his well grouped mutals. They're be slow as hell and their rate of fire is made slower. You then should be able to rape the mass sunkens easily, because of your hydraling lurker advantage (his lings will not be able to help at all) and the fact the mutas move slow as hell. Just a thought though, but I've seen 2 base hyt with queen been verrrry efficient | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
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IntoTheDrain
Australia46 Posts
Muhweli you got 1337 posts! | ||
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CeltiC.MoOn
Germany160 Posts
i think the problem to your style is eco. if you expand after pumping a few scourges and then switch to hydra and make spores and make so many upgrades... that just doesn't work. you give your opponent enough breathing time to recover, expand himself and/or mass mutal, because you have to pump MANY drones to support what you want to do. also, i think a well timed 12+ mutal and 24-30 ling attack (with up) will almost always kill your expansion. | ||
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ShAsTa
Belgium2841 Posts
and no it wasn't tsu. It was a game vs noenoe. | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
And in my experience hydras tend to win. So shortly to your original question, I think sunkens backed up with hydra(+scourge & spore) and ling can handle 36 lings and the mutes pretty easily. This of course assumes you get the defence up to your exp before he attacks. Too bad I'm not so 1337 anymore T_T; | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
so you don't really need so many scourges to handle those when you have sporehydra to cover it. You don't even need too many hydras for that 2 spores would be minimum at this point of game.It's also very important not to overpower. | ||
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tomson
Poland641 Posts
a) build at least 1 spore each base (main and nat), since it's no problem to gather 10-14 mutas vs a scourge ling expander. (250+the obvious lost of 2 drones) b) most likely make a sunken, because it's very probable that he will be superior in ling numbers. Of course you could go constant ling production as well, but then the idea of expanding wouldn't be very logical, since your economy wouldn't improve fast. (125+lost of a drone) c) making your expansion sensible by producing a few drones (150-350) d) of course prepare yourself for the switch by building a den and researching an upgrade (100/50+150/150) So in a relatively small period of time the costs would approximately be 775-975/200 to unable tech switching. It's pretty obvious that this gives an enormous advantage in that time to your opponent. He has the initiative - he can either attack you (and if he wasn't hurt before he will most likely suceed) or expand himself (which is more safe) and maybe switch to lurker or build an additional gas expansion. I also do not understand the point of combining hydra and scourge. Firstly, before you have a reasonable amount of hydralisks he already should have such a number (at least 2 groups) of mutalisks that makes scourge very, very unefficient. Secondly I doubt you would have the gas to simultaneously produce both of them. Since you wrote about an unrelated muta-muta thought I will post mine as well. One of my friends, which I truly admire for his invention to the game once wondered why people don't bring overlords (you would of course have to research speed for them) for muta-muta wars as a cover for splash damage. Of course it has its disadvantages (you have to research speed and in case of a lost battle you would most likely lose most of your Overlords as well), but still a very interesting idea. He came up with hundreds of things like that, which really helped him in the first two years of the game. __ tomsOn | ||
Waxangel
United States33486 Posts
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