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I am bringing this up because I want to hear some skilled opinions on this. By this mean that if you don't know anything on the subject, please don't answer at all. Also, this "article" here doesn't contain anything accurate or constant that should, could or will not be changed. So, here I go...
New and more efficient Zerg vs Zerg
Hydra's in ZvZ? Many people know the strategies, even sometimes use hydra strats, however hydra strategies from one base suck their asses off. Hydra from 2 base is a viable strategy, but quickexpanding is always risky and vulnerable. Pure hydra is not very efficient vs a well trained mutaling user.
Korean style zerg vs zerg -> starting off with scourgeling is a powerful opening giving possibility for early on expansion, usually faster than a muta user because of the great amount of troops and opponent's lack of mutalisks. Upgraded lings also are something so superior, that mutal user's expansion is usually delayed.
With this information known I went on to my point. Starting off with a build such as 12hat 11gas 10(/11)pool (which dies to rushes, yes I know, but is good counter to korean poolgas build). After pool is finished, morph lair and pump lings while making an evo and starting carapace upgrade when ready. Pump on lings and get spire for scourge. Ling speed is of course researched. After this, and occasionally before but after the upgrade is complete, this is the time to go offensive. Of course we know zvz is pretty intensive match up so if you see a point to make up damage to your opponent before, do it. Just keep him from expanding and at this very point expand yourself while scourging all that you can see. Scourging must be made efficiently and it is good to build up at least one spore for failurecoverage early on.
We're now at the point where we've claimed a successful expansion which'll be protected as the player seems fit (one spore at least). With lings ready to rape opponent in case of him leaving his base and scourge scourging off the skies. Build up drones for the expansion. Now morph hydra den. Continue on producing scourge, ling and drone. Remember to scout the whole map to prevent hidden expansions, from this point on, mobility is decreased a bit so you might not be able to handle them properly. Also, you might need to build up a fourth hatchery at this point. First upgrade hydra speed while upgrading second carapace for hydra (or attack if you see it fit, i suppose you could do second evo as well). One gas might be enough - That, i don't know. No overpowering should be allowed to keep the advantage gotten.
After hydra speed and range are finished, lurker tech is to be made. At this whole time, hydras are pumped like no tomorrow (and scourge with extra gas). At least 1 hat hydra should be rallied at main and spores to be added so that when attack is launched, there would be at least 3 at each base to prevent buttrape, before hyt can get to help.
You'd probably be having an advantage in the upgrades as well as resources. Morph three lurkers (One for muta sniperage which might occur [backup that is]) and two to finish off with lings. You'll probably have quite big mass atm and you can go offensive. You should have hydra,ling,scourge and some lurkers. Make a hellish frontal attack with all units accompanied and finish your opponent off.
From many points in this strat, timing is essential. I am not quite sure how the timing will fit in, but from the little experiences i've made, i've noticed that the builds are very viable and can handle almost any kind of scenario. The opponent will probably trying to do the usual expansion & tech to guard stuff because your lack of mobility. However scourge is there to help. Mass sunkens will probably also occur - There are a few ways to deal with it. In my experience, the mass with the upgrades at hand is big enough to go through sunkenmuta(ling  . However this won't probably be the case always, so either dark swarm or drop is the way to handle this. Keeping overlords with the attack might not be bad idea anyways, because they'll absorb some splash damage.
Also, 5th hat can be at some point made to take third base. This is of course optional and some people might feel it's not safe. Mineral only base would be enough for the two gasses at hand.
Some additions and thoughts:
-Burrowlings could be used for more efficient scouting AND to prevent opponent from building hatches all over the map without first bringing overlord there. This might also work for his natural to gain a little more time if the ling can be taken there secretly.
-Attack before lurker tech can of course be made, but i'd wait at least 20 hydra to pop out with the lings before going. DEPENDS!
-Losing one wave of attack doesn't necessarily mean loss since hydrascourge is very cost effective strategy and you can probably cover up some hydras to defend up in time. a couple of lurkers accompanied by a sunken neutralize the ling thread.
-When you have lurkers, opponent is required to add overlords upon attacks which makes him more vulnerable if the attack fails. It also slows him down quite a lot.
Summary:
So the basic idea would be to start off with scourgeling w/ armor upgrade followed by rather quick expansion and hydraswitch with scourge, 4 hats and later on lurkers. (not forgetting hard upgrading).
Scourgeling => expansion => hydrascourgeling => hydrascourgelurkling
A COMPLETELY unrelated thought to ZvZ Muta wars
Everyone seems to group mutas as groups of 12 mutalisks. Then in the mutawar, fire is concentrated on one muta with 120 hitpoints. Each muta deal 9 damage making it the total of 108 damage which is 12 damage short of killing a mutalisk. After that, every mutalisk (at least too many mutals) shoot again resulting in waste of hits because the mutal taking the damage would die to 2 mutalisk attack). Therefore grouping mutalisks in a groups of 7 mutals, we would deal 63 damage at once, and second hit would be fatal only over 6hp which would cover the possible regeneration of the mutalisk too. Of course if you happen to have 14 mutals you can concentrate them all to one to have one shot kills, but again, after that you'll be doing unefficient hits (with 15 or so).
Just thoughts. Thank you. And in the end I want to add that please don't post anything if you don't really know about the subject  All kinda commentary however is welcome. Both positive and negative.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
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I'm 100% unqualified to actually comment on the post, but the unrelated note is fairly innovative.
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Nicely written, but I know nothing 
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On August 02 2003 22:33 [pG]Rekrul wrote:
Nice post.
I know. ;D
On August 02 2003 22:35 Mkoms wrote:
I'm 100% unqualified to actually comment on the post, but the unrelated note is fairly innovative.
On August 02 2003 22:41 Refrain[FriZ] wrote: Nicely written, but I know nothing
Thx.
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[QUOTE]On August 02 2003 22:31 Muhweli wrote:
A COMPLETELY unrelated thought to ZvZ Muta wars
Everyone seems to group mutas as groups of 12 mutalisks. Then in the mutawar, fire is concentrated on one muta with 120 hitpoints. Each muta deal 9 damage making it the total of 108 damage which is 12 damage short of killing a mutalisk. After that, every mutalisk (at least too many mutals) shoot again resulting in waste of hits because the mutal taking the damage would die to 2 mutalisk attack). Therefore grouping mutalisks in a groups of 7 mutals, we would deal 63 damage at once, and second hit would be fatal only over 6hp which would cover the possible regeneration of the mutalisk too. Of course if you happen to have 14 mutals you can concentrate them all to one to have one shot kills, but again, after that you'll be doing unefficient hits (with 15 or so).
QUOTE]
Impressive thought
You have a problem early game against any z player who pops down spores early and just goes 3 hatch lings w/ ups. If they stick to it, the game's going to be over before any expansion ever comes up. Also, when your mobility goes down, the lings keeping him in won't hold and he can prolly also expo freely, so you'll only have mineral advan for a little. That's all I can really think of. Nice post
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NICELY WRITTEN
too bad your [url="http://www.wgtour.com/member.php?datab=broodwar&id=156"]TLT record[/url] sucks!
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On August 02 2003 22:53 Vicious)Soul wrote:
You have a problem early game against any z player who pops down spores early and just goes 3 hatch lings w/ ups. If they stick to it, the game's going to be over before any expansion ever comes up. Also, when your mobility goes down, the lings keeping him in won't hold and he can prolly also expo freely, so you'll only have mineral advan for a little. That's all I can really think of. Nice post
To this... This is an issue of adaptation. Seeing your opponent go 3hat pure ling, you can just go muta and not expand just yet. Since you did the upgrade before expanding, you can probably fend the lings off until you get to control his ramp, or then just make a few mutes and go lurker. With mutas you should be able to take the expansion and continue on teching. Of course it probably won't be a good idea to start producing hydra just yet vs a zerg going pure ling, but go muta. A logical followup for the zerg not getting his lings through might be either one base hydra or scourge which, as time shows, will come up pretty much too late to stop your expansion.
However upon seeing the massling, you should just go straight to lurker since it counters both ling and hydra thread and until lurks (which are cheap vs lings imo) you'll be able to fend off with mute.
Aaaight.
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On August 02 2003 23:08 88)SuperCod~ wrote:
NICELY WRITTEN
too bad your [url="http://www.wgtour.com/member.php?datab=broodwar&id=156"]TLT record sucks! [/url]
Thanks for bringing this up, very essential for the nature of the post, also checking up my wgt record would be essential because I do not rock at that either, I have prolly 1-0 statistics. And I have to say how happy I am that your TLT record is Godly. We all know that TLT record is a direct measure of skill, no matter who, when and in what circumstances you have played. If you do not feel like giving any comments with a little relation to the topic at hand, please stfu, die to gonorrhea and burn in the flames of hell. k thx bye ~~!
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About the completely unrelated thoughts:
This is correct for the first attact, but keep in mind that the muta attack "bounces", so if you (with a group of 12) attack one at a time (in the same order as the bouncing) it will give one hit kills.
Also, if you group them in 7's, you will loose efficiency whenever 1 muta dies, as this will make the group it was in have to make three shots (but this is WITHOUT adding the "bouncing").
Anyway.. I guess I could sum this up to; the nature of the muta attack makes it a bit hard to make as effective as possible (without insane micro).
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Instead of grouping them in groups of 7, shouldn't you group them in like groups of 9 or 10?
1 or 2 of them are going to die FAST, then that group you have will be horribly innefficient
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On August 02 2003 23:08 88)SuperCod~ wrote:
NICELY WRITTEN
too bad your [url="http://www.wgtour.com/member.php?datab=broodwar&id=156"]TLT record sucks! [/url]
too bad your html sucks
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The first strat you mentioned I've seen many times, sometimes during the ling/scourge into hydra process they get a handfull of lurkers so mass ling counters are gone.
My opinion of this is that if your switching to hydra after gaining the advantage with a scourge/ling opening, which btw your opening will not have enough gas for enough scourge to stop well microed defencive muta, but if you are switching to hydra, because you have gained an advantage then wouldn't it seem logical to plop down a spore(or2) second gas get muta carpace, or attack depending on your preferance and have advantage in a battle where you have more muta and more upgraded lings?
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AttackZerg, 12hat 11gas gives quite same amount of gas that normal korean 12poolgas (whatever the build is gives. So the gas that goes to the upgrade is insignificant since scourge is cheaper in the beginning. Many koreans start off with 3 hat scourgeling, followed by exp and then go mutaswitch. Then again the muta user is also required to make lings which results in early advantage too. With the build I mentioned (btw, after pool power to 12 or 13 drones), you'll get 12 scourge before he can get even near 6 mutes. So you'll got the ling advantage which CAN (this of course again depends) lead you on getting up his ramp which'll mean significant damage for him in form of loss of drones or at least time. At this time you probably have put up (at least you should) your expansion and it have to be secured with spore of course. Having 2 spores per base ain't too much at this point and as I mentioned, third should be added before attacking.
And if his muta is well-microed defensive, he won't attack until you have +1 exp secured with spores. Your lings will keep him busy anyways and as I mentioned, scourge can be a good way to get you on his ramp. After lings are attacking, there will be enough scourge to harvest his mutes despite one spore (2 might be too much). He has to withdraw his mutas from shooting your lings when the scourgii arrive
Some defensive issues
At the hydra phase, some hatcheries should be rallied to main because pure spore probably cannot fend off the attacking muta without significant losses. Hydras aren't very mobile as we know.
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On August 02 2003 23:33 Ymar wrote:
About the completely unrelated thoughts:
This is correct for the first attact, but keep in mind that the muta attack "bounces", so if you (with a group of 12) attack one at a time (in the same order as the bouncing) it will give one hit kills.
Also, if you group them in 7's, you will loose efficiency whenever 1 muta dies, as this will make the group it was in have to make three shots (but this is WITHOUT adding the "bouncing").
Anyway.. I guess I could sum this up to; the nature of the muta attack makes it a bit hard to make as effective as possible (without insane micro).
On August 02 2003 23:35 travis wrote:
Instead of grouping them in groups of 7, shouldn't you group them in like groups of 9 or 10?
1 or 2 of them are going to die FAST, then that group you have will be horribly innefficient
You have a point there and I thought about it myself too. 8 mutes should at least be included. The splash damage issue is correct too i think. Not sure how did the splash damage go? 3dmg 2dmg 1dmg? So 12 muta splash damage would be 36 damage in total. 9 mutes would then do 27 damage splash. +81 from their original damages would be 108. Hmmn Now that it is specified further, 10 mutes would probably be the answer PLUS the next waypoint always to the muta that the splash hit to. In my opinion that kinda micro is quite impossible because mutals are grouped and kept tight. That is why 7 would be more optimal and for pre-caution 8-10 mutas 8 being prolly enough (cuz of the splashes made!).
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Hydras are not a viable strategy to ZvZ because it is weak to muta/ling, and it is a slow strategy. Unless you do quick expo, turtle to 4 hatch hydras and make 3-4 lurks with ur mass amounts of hydras which will own muta/ling pretty good.
There are many things to consider if u do the standard pool/gas build. IF he does try to make 3hatch/scourge/+1 ling to beat you make a spore and just build up mutas. Mass mutas > mass scourge. Group your mutas so that he can't scourge your mutas easily. After that just camp in ur base and build up mutas, dont move around cuz u risk beign hunted down by scourges.
If he doesnt do 3hatch/scourge/+1 ling but the same build as you, it is VERY IMPORTANT that you DO NOT make ANY SPORES UNLESS YOUR SPIRE IS 300 health behind. If he makes spores, that costs 2 drones, 225 minerals. Nobody attacks the other person's base anyways, it is suicide. Expand if he makes spores. Now you have advantage in gas, you should win, keep pressing him with ur resource advantage.
If he is a good zerg and the two of you are neck to neck with mutas, then expand to your second natural or a mineral expo only. With mineral advantage, make more hatcheries/lings/expoes and keep attacking.
Additional frequent beginner's mistakes:
DO NOT horde your overlords in a corner, they are useless there. Most z users like to play in the dark with overlords in their base. MOVE THEM ALL OVER THE MAP. Take half the map with ovies. Park them near your base to give u a warning if he foolishly attacks ur base with mutas.
DO NOT DO HIT AND RUN ATTACKS WITH MUTAS unless you CLEARLY have the mutalisk advantage. After watching yellow replays, I notice that ONE single hit and run attack could cost u the game. A good zerg will chase you, and if he is close to you he could essentially wipe out ur whole muta army before it gets back to your base. How? When your mutas are in shooting range of his, DO NOT use the mouse to attack his mutas. Use the attack command on the keyboard and select the area just above the enemie's mutalisk path. Your mutalisks will attack while continuing to chase his mutas. This is kinda hard to explain but watch pro zvz games and you will see they NEVER do hit and run attacks.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Also, DO NOT upgrade +1 muta attack right when the spire morphs. The early game (up to 15 mins) is when most ZvZ games are over or the winner is decided. The upgrade takes too many minerals and gas out of ur low supply. 2 lings and 2 more scourges could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Get upgrade only when you have expanded and it is stalemate.
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On August 03 2003 00:27 Tien wrote:
Hydras are not a viable strategy to ZvZ because it is weak to muta/ling, and it is a slow strategy. Unless you do quick expo, turtle to 4 hatch hydras and make 3-4 lurks with ur mass amounts of hydras which will own muta/ling pretty good.
There are many things to consider if u do the standard pool/gas build. IF he does try to make 3hatch/scourge/+1 ling to beat you make a spore and just build up mutas. Mass mutas > mass scourge. Group your mutas so that he can't scourge your mutas easily. After that just camp in ur base and build up mutas, dont move around cuz u risk beign hunted down by scourges.
If he doesnt do 3hatch/scourge/+1 ling but the same build as you, it is VERY IMPORTANT that you DO NOT make ANY SPORES UNLESS YOUR SPIRE IS 300 health behind. If he makes spores, that costs 2 drones, 225 minerals. Nobody attacks the other person's base anyways, it is suicide. Expand if he makes spores. Now you have advantage in gas, you should win, keep pressing him with ur resource advantage.
If he is a good zerg and the two of you are neck to neck with mutas, then expand to your second natural or a mineral expo only. With mineral advantage, make more hatcheries/lings/expoes and keep attacking.
Additional frequent beginner's mistakes:
DO NOT horde your overlords in a corner, they are useless there. Most z users like to play in the dark with overlords in their base. MOVE THEM ALL OVER THE MAP. Take half the map with ovies. Park them near your base to give u a warning if he foolishly attacks ur base with mutas.
DO NOT DO HIT AND RUN ATTACKS WITH MUTAS unless you CLEARLY have the mutalisk advantage. After watching yellow replays, I notice that ONE single hit and run attack could cost u the game. A good zerg will chase you, and if he is close to you he could essentially wipe out ur whole muta army before it gets back to your base. How? When your mutas are in shooting range of his, DO NOT use the mouse to attack his mutas. Use the attack command on the keyboard and select the area just above the enemie's mutalisk path. Your mutalisks will attack while continuing to chase his mutas. This is kinda hard to explain but watch pro zvz games and you will see they NEVER do hit and run attacks.
Who r u?
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On August 03 2003 00:36 Tien wrote:
Also, DO NOT upgrade +1 muta attack right when the spire morphs. The early game (up to 15 mins) is when most ZvZ games are over or the winner is decided. The upgrade takes too many minerals and gas out of ur low supply. 2 lings and 2 more scourges could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Get upgrade only when you have expanded and it is stalemate.
I DO know how to play normal ZvZ... I mean really. The only significant comment you really gave me was that "hydra's" don't work which do have a point. I do not see why my opponent going scourgeling puts me in a defencive position since that is what I am doing. The third hatch is just build to the expansion - I DO KNOW this is a disadvantage but it is assumable that the opponent will do likewise and we're in a situation which is pretty much even AKA adaptation is to be used here which means hydras aren't probably a good idea. However the point is that a dood going muta is forced to stay in his base until you've taken your relatively early expo. You then have 2 gas and YES you can go MUTA if you want but that wasn't my point! That is the strat that is used, not the strat I described. And with this advantage gotten here, hydraLURK is more efficient than going to it from an even situation. Yet you missed a little point which was to include scourge within this strat. This is why you don't have to power so much for the 4 hatcheries but to make scourge instead of 4 hat masshydra. After mutas engaging the hydras, well spread scourge fleet can deal damage to the mutas - one scourge per muta will be enough to kill it under the heavy hydra fire. And as you probably noticed, hydras do have 0-2 or 1-2 upgrades (at least they should) at this point so muta splash damage is reduced as well as ling damage dealt before lurkers are allowed to burrow.
So the 3 hat scourgelinging zerg forces you to adapt to the situation. It's not meant to be a strategy that is unbeatable in any situation...
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Cod, lets see your TLT record?
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Russian Federation798 Posts
Well, i don't know. +1 ling/scourgeis pretty hard to pull off against good z user. Let's suppose you did that, made successful exp and delayed his expand for a while. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to go mutas at this point since you have 2 gases (which gives you huge advantage in muta numbers) instead of going hydras and by that putting yourself at defensive for some time? Why would you think hydras is more effective way to go at this point? The way I see it, once you accomplishe first phase of your plan, the game is basically won already.
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Also your commentation on hydra sucking missed the whole point of my strat post, which is to switch to hydra from an advantageous position.
Many monkeys I have seen and several I've spanked, but never have I been raped by one
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Too bad Cod just got banned again.
Too bad he has a dynamic IP tho T_T!
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On August 03 2003 00:51 Muhweli wrote:
Also your commentation on hydra sucking missed the whole point of my strat post, which is to switch to hydra from an advantageous position.
Oh, you said it yourself now. But the question remains.
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On August 03 2003 00:50 SurG wrote:
Well, i don't know. +1 ling/scourgeis pretty hard to pull off against good z user. Let's suppose you did that, made successful exp and delayed his expand for a while. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to go mutas at this point since you have 2 gases (which gives you huge advantage in muta numbers) instead of going hydras and by that putting yourself at defensive for some time? Why would you think hydras is more effective way to go at this point? The way I see it, once you accomplishe first phase of your plan, the game is basically won already.
That is reasonable commentation, however in my opinion it is hell lot easier to suck muta attack vs enemy sporedomic base with this gas advantage than a pile of hydralurk on attack move . The idea is to create solid gameplay strategy that do not fall into one little mistake at controlling. And at the point you get 2 gasses, you've only done scourges this far. If the opponent microes good, he can keep his mutes without significant losses and take the expansion rather early himself. This is an exploration for another possibility which would be viable besides the old allboring muta one. And the hydras are supported by the scourges and when you think of it, you can get one hydra and 2 scourge with the price of one mutalisk <== That is why I think this idea might have a future.
And I do not think the game is won by getting a little earlier expansion. At least I've managed to win vs some good players from the situation described.
Oh and for some who have or are going to comment, please leave "hydras suck" comments out. Those are what I don't want here, at least not without good company of reasons.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
if scourge come put muta on hold, scourge will do that weird bug thing and get owned v-.-
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On August 03 2003 00:55 SurG wrote: Show nested quote +On August 03 2003 00:51 Muhweli wrote:
Also your commentation on hydra sucking missed the whole point of my strat post, which is to switch to hydra from an advantageous position.
Oh, you said it yourself now. But the question remains.
Since the strategy nearly automatically gives you a slight advantage, wouldn't it be interesting to explore viable options to continue?
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On August 03 2003 00:52 [pG]Rekrul wrote:
Too bad Cod just got banned again.
Too bad he has a dynamic IP tho T_T!
Sad.
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The dynamic IP thing that is
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On August 03 2003 00:59 ret wrote:
if scourge come put muta on hold, scourge will do that weird bug thing and get owned v-.-
You might have a point there :D
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SO PLEASE CONCENTRATE ON COMMENTATING THIS STRATEGY INSTEAD OF SUGGESTING THAT I SHOULD DO SOMETHING ELSE
I know how normal ZvZ is played and how it goes if you go muta blablabla. My lil' mind just wants to believe there is another, more solid way to play this matchup.
And furthermore, the idea is not yet to "win" with scourgeling. So "pulling off scourgeling vs a good player" only is to defend until the expansion is gotten for hydra & scourge production.
[edit] And I will probably sum all the real results collected here up and make a whole coverage article on the subject (expanding it from the form it is in now)
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Muhweli has my full support in his thread.
Off-topic posts or flames will result in bad things.
EDIT ^^ Better 1 than many!
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I think you're spreading yourself a bit too thin when you switch to hydras...hydra upgrades, evo upgrades, powering your nat, and trying to maintain enough ling/scourge numbers to keep the pressure on him and/or defend vs his forces is a bit much when you've only got your main and a low drone count nat. If he decides to attack you around the time you've got maybe 6~ hydras you might be in trouble.
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Nice ideas, your bw skills are indeed many. Have you tested these ideas out in a real game yet? How did it work?
Actually testing it out in some games may bring up something that you wouldnt normally think of.
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On August 03 2003 01:19 [pG]Rekrul wrote:
Muhweli has my full support in his thread.
Off-topic posts or flames will result in bad things.
(btw, thx )
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On August 03 2003 02:23 Keanu_Reaver wrote:
I think you're spreading yourself a bit too thin when you switch to hydras...hydra upgrades, evo upgrades, powering your nat, and trying to maintain enough ling/scourge numbers to keep the pressure on him and/or defend vs his forces is a bit much when you've only got your main and a low drone count nat. If he decides to attack you around the time you've got maybe 6~ hydras you might be in trouble.
Well it's not like you need too many drones to keep hydra production up anyways. When you take the expansion, you'll lingcount will in most cases be higher and you still have some scourge to defend up the mutals. When expansion is ready, spores are to be added to prevent mutals from doing damage and you can add sunken(s) if you feel uncertain of pure troop defence. And you don't have to keep that much pressure on your enemy after getting the expo secured. However the only game I've lost with this strategylike thing was when my opponent got a real fast hidden expansion thus giving him 3 gasses oh yeah and one game vs anon . So scouting is extremely important because the mutacounts will be too high.
[edit] Oh yeah, and I didn't say it should be easy, but I believe that after practice it can be quite stable way of playing.
On August 03 2003 02:30 PPV_Jimmy wrote:
Nice ideas, your bw skills are indeed many. Have you tested these ideas out in a real game yet? How did it work?
Actually testing it out in some games may bring up something that you wouldnt normally think of.
I actually tried this with a friend winning 3-1 (where that one being the hidden expo). After that I've tried it on west (clan 30dom random duels...) without a single loss :D That might've been because of the lack of skill on the enemy's side and I've been called hacker in a few of those games :D I tend to try it at TLT to see if it really works. I kinda was going to try it vs anon but I sorta won two games out of three before even reaching that far. The third game which I lost was a fight a lil' fight but I totally sucked it from the beginning. So I've tested it against relatively good people and hope to do so in the future too.
The thing is that scourgeling alone might win the game early on so it's not always clear to go and try. Upgraded lings that get up from a ramp protected by unupgraded lings, pretty much rape. Muta protection in that gase requires a lot of micro & scourge dodging
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hmm~~ When do u make drones for ur expo? if ur pumping ling/scourge, u dont have many drones - if u make drones, he has MORE ling/scourge than u, and u cannot expo
Your expo goes up, but u dont have enough money to be getting Armor, Hydra ups, Lurker grade, and spores. T_T !
However, i like your idea though - i just need pointing in the right direction. ~~
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On August 03 2003 03:12 Teroru wrote:
hmm~~ When do u make drones for ur expo? if ur pumping ling/scourge, u dont have many drones - if u make drones, he has MORE ling/scourge than u, and u cannot expo
Your expo goes up, but u dont have enough money to be getting Armor, Hydra ups, Lurker grade, and spores. T_T !
However, i like your idea though - i just need pointing in the right direction. ~~
Suppose you didn't try it yet. It might be hard to find the balance, I admit that and that is mostly because no one has done it before. And the case of opponent going scourgeling is tricky and might force you to do some adaptation. 12hat 11gas 10/11pool => power til 12/13 is pretty vulnerable to pools shorter than 12 (basically 4/6/8 and 9 pools), but gives quite good production at the beginning. The armor upgrade is done before expanding soon after the pool is done. I will be uploading some replays of my trials to my homepage when I get it done and online so they'll probably express the idea better and more accurately.
As in always, many cases are of simple adaptation to the crisis and there is no correct One and Only answer to them. If enemy does something, you react to it, not continue with the thing you were making (unless you CAN ). Soo, you ask when to power. I'd say after at least one spore and a sunken are up in the expo. That should make it a lil' safe and if you have any doubt on your scourge, make two. Yet subkaiser t3h Zerg (some might know him) has stated that about 6-8 drones each base are able to keep up 2 base hyt. You'll of course need a few more but do not rush with them.
Hope that answered the question.
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Scourge/ling is not the strat I am disputting, See Mumyung vs Yellow from kpga finals to see how amazing a full preasure scourge/ling strategy can be, but the build he used was 12 hat 11 gas at 150 then pool at 10 but it hsould be right after gas =).
This gives you tons of gas to play with, and alot of early lings against the gas/pool strats. But when I say not enough gas, I mean would it not be better to have 400 more and a strong ling contingent and slightly less early money. 12 scourge vs 6 muta is a nice idea, but try it out against clumped muta who hold position and target scourge. quit a few less land, and scourging over 8 + muta it's pretty hard, and if they add a scourge or 4 into there repetoire [sp] your task then becomes [imho] daunting. Not to mention overlords on patrol around there expand and muta dancing to make your job even harder.
And if they spot hydra they [should] will do the standard muta grades 2 evo's and mass sunken, mass drone, once you leave your base to attack there's mass muta counters are leathal and fast. I have stated my opinions and things I have be taught/learned zvz but I am not saying your wrong in any place where I disagree I am just presenting my view of the situation and my evaluation of the possiblities. This is fun.
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On August 03 2003 00:59 ret wrote:
if scourge come put muta on hold, scourge will do that weird bug thing and get owned v-.-
is that where they kinda run back and then come in? like there lining up there attack or something? :O
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Muhweli
To solve the 12 mutal target issue ---> +1 Muta Upgrade works art!!
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the targetting thing about wasting shots is just common sense among higher level players;
cooldowns a bitch
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You say after your speed and range upgrade get lurker... by that point you would be so far behind in the ground war, especially considering you expanded, he didnt, and your wasting mass amounts of gas initially off of one base on scourge, you will be fucked... YOu can initially maintain an air advantage by going scourge/ling but before soon, especially if ur opponent has good scourge micro as well, you are going to be far behind, and out of gas to be able to protect your expo from muta, and the extra lings he got from earlier on when u went exclusive scourge...
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what would happen if they expoed similar to the way satanik? If they mass sunk you can always go for defilers since they are just so sexy to use ZvZ and hardly anyone uses em ever.
scourgling seems sexy, i must try it one day
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ya defilers would be nice late game...
My question is, and I don't remember if you covered it, but isn't this strategy location dependent? I'm not really sure which way it favors you, but in general isn't mutaling > scourgeling at close spots? So maybe at like 12v3 you wouldn't be able to take the advantage you need. If your at far spots the scourge/ling would be effective, and if you can harm him with lings before he can run his mutas back I guess this could be effective, but wouldn't switching to hydras just take the pressure off him? I guess I just need to see some reps to really judge this.
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I didn't read all the post so it's possible this is already said but;
There was this game where I went mut/ling vs another zerg who doesn't seem to be doing anything, only putting up spores 10 sec be4 I had muts. So I expanded and as the games continues I see he has hydras.
Meanwhile I'm laughing my ass off cuz I think he's some newb.
Well, after 10 mins or so (I really don't remember) he comes out with 20 hydras or so and completely destroys my army of I dunno 40 mutas and a bunch of lings (I really don't remember the numbers only that I had alot more ) Well when he came out his hydras we're 2-2 and practicly owned my mutas. He had put up 2 chambers and grading till he had 2-2 and then burst out and won the game.
He said he already had kicked some koreans with that strat.
Just to let you guys know there are other viable ways.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
about muta , the 7-9 thing wont be good cuz, the point of muta vs muta, is owning a muta in the back, so the mutas do great damage in a line through the enemys mutas, this line does more damage with 12 muta, and i dont think its worth it going through all the trouble to make 7~9 muta groups T_T:;
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Netherlands4511 Posts
and btw, i don't think your expand hydra thing works, hydra is just so bad..
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Netherlands4511 Posts
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ookiedookie, I try to answer as many questions as possible. The truth is as you said, making all the upgrades will leave you somewhat behind in gas. However hydralisks cheaper than muta and considering that you'll get some scourge to help with them as well. I have in most of my games done the first attack before getting lurks which has proven to be efficient despite the mass mutes. Just must not get flanked. Mass sunken is of course badass counter but it'll die without the support of the mutas (you still have lings, not pure hydra remember? And upon muta arrival, a new attack move is commanded for the hydras and for the scourges to the hydra will start targetting muta as well. Hmmn that was badly explained since doing it that way would probably result in mass suicide. Still in a direct combat, the hydra mass you've gathered is probably overwhelmingly powerful, especially if you happen to have the lurks with you.
AttackZerg, the build you described is pretty much the one I use with a possibility of adding one drone before pool making it a bit more unsafe And I said the build will give you 12 scourge before he even has 6 mutes. That means that you'll have more scourges by the time he reaches 12 mutas. The build is very happy in production and gas (if you wouldn't do anything else like the ling upgrade etc) would give you ability to make up to 6 mutals right after spire is complete (well actually 5 mutas and 2 scourge without that extra drone). So the gas should be enough.
And yes the strat is somewhat position dependant, it's better to just go upgraded lings later on maybe muta or scourgeling from 12-3. Those positions suck in every mu of the game.
The greatest problem is the fact that mutalisks can go to your back when you leave your base. Depending on his muta count I have always at least 3 spores (which is not enough to stop the hurricane coming) in my base mayb add fourth. Your opponent needs to have good timing on this, because as you remember, you've rallied at least one hat to your main (if you have 4, then 2 would be wise). So as long as you're there, supported by spores, he's not attacking for quite sure. Then when you leave your base, you'll still continue on producing more and more. So he needs to attack right after you've left or you'll have more hydra to defend with (which probably ain't enough but might scare him away But as we know, the same risks exist in muta vs muta too. When you engage opponent main, he might already be engaging yours.
Your opponent probably places scoutlings all over the map to see your doings. Because of your upgrade superiority, your scoutlings should be able to rape them quite easily, even alone. And preventing expansions with burrow might not be a bad idea (as said)
Drops would be one way to do the same to him but it again costs some money. However he pretty much is unable to defend his main if you get to drop your troops there.
I would have one replay to show pretty accurately what I mean but I don't think I am able to upload it anywhere
"by that point you would be so far behind in the ground war", lurkers will be the ones to handle ground. Hydras supported by 3 lurkers can kill 10000000 lings You also have good armor upgrades to prevent muta damage and splash damage for taking full effect. You'll probably have attack upgrade too. And considering that I expanded and my opponent did not, I have 2 gasses at use. Giving me the lil' productional advantage. And because in the beginning I upgraded armor, not attack to the lings, the effect is pretty much the same except for the carapace also being upgrade to the hydras to be hatched which are then armor upgraded.
And I don't see how much more lings could he have since the beginning was quite much the same for both. If he goes 3hat, that will be what's you're doing and would mean he goes just scourge - meaning you can make more ling less scourge.
CosMo, good point Yet many people (such as me) first upgrade muta carapace for the effectiveness sake. It reduces the damage of the splashes too
And hades, from the point when I'll be "far behind" in air war, I'll already have hydras to kill mutes. If you put one muta vs one armor upgraded hydra, who do you think will win? And since you can get in addition to the hydra 2 scourges with the price of one muta...
ShAsTa, probably Tsu ;DDD hehe He used to go one base 2 evo upgrade hyt vs korean style and win. Yet it can be countered so easily. A lot easier to counter than 2 base hydra really
Also, adding up queens (mayb instead of lurks to save money) wouldn't be a bad idea. Ensnared mutes would get eaten by hydra. This would also give some more possibilities. For example if the opponent decides to go counterstriken you're leaving to attack (this is pretty much the point when i take my mineral only [if i've not taken it before]) He engages your main, you go and ensnare his well grouped mutals. They're be slow as hell and their rate of fire is made slower. You then should be able to rape the mass sunkens easily, because of your hydraling lurker advantage (his lings will not be able to help at all) and the fact the mutas move slow as hell. Just a thought though, but I've seen 2 base hyt with queen been verrrry efficient
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Man that came out to be almost new article :D hehe
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OFF TOPIC but must be said
Muhweli you got 1337 posts!
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i didn't read all the comments, so i'm sorry if this has been mentioned before:
i think the problem to your style is eco. if you expand after pumping a few scourges and then switch to hydra and make spores and make so many upgrades... that just doesn't work. you give your opponent enough breathing time to recover, expand himself and/or mass mutal, because you have to pump MANY drones to support what you want to do.
also, i think a well timed 12+ mutal and 24-30 ling attack (with up) will almost always kill your expansion.
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btw 2-2 hydra > muta
and no it wasn't tsu. It was a game vs noenoe.
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In my experience I've managed to hold it. Behind a couple of sunks, hydra ling can screw off quite a big amount of lings plus the scourge handling mutas with spores & hyts. The hatcheries and sunkens must be well placed and drones can help defending at this point. It consumes some eco yes. But still, ling upgrade applies to hydra straight and your opponent will probably be upgrading too so that doesn't matter, as well as ling speed. Then hydra upgrades will consume total of 300 mineral and gas which is pretty much the price of 3 mutalisks. + Lurker upgrade 2 mutalisks + second carapace 'bout 2 mutals. So this would give him 7 mutal "advantage", however you got earlier expansion which reduces this "advantage" as well as you made more drones in the beginning giving you some extra mins from there. And you don't need too many drones for expansion until you get third hat. I admit handling eco is one of the hardest thing since you can't really afford to lose drones. Hydra scourge however is very efficient vs the mutalisks when you have armour upgrade so the couple of muts with mayb +1 attack at the point (+2 might be, not sure of this), can't really compete vs the mass. Lurks handle lings so it's hydra scourge vs hydramass fight And in my experience hydras tend to win.
So shortly to your original question, I think sunkens backed up with hydra(+scourge & spore) and ling can handle 36 lings and the mutes pretty easily. This of course assumes you get the defence up to your exp before he attacks.
Too bad I'm not so 1337 anymore T_T;
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Many people seem to forget that there are still some scourge to back up the hydras. When opponent attacks with his 12+ mutas or so, the scourge spread wide (not in piles of 2 but as single scourges), upon attack at least some go through and those mutes are as good as dead
so you don't really need so many scourges to handle those when you have sporehydra to cover it. You don't even need too many hydras for that 2 spores would be minimum at this point of game.
It's also very important not to overpower.
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I don't think radical tech switching after semi-early exping to nat is a good idea vs a standard muta player. You would have to
a) build at least 1 spore each base (main and nat), since it's no problem to gather 10-14 mutas vs a scourge ling expander. (250+the obvious lost of 2 drones)
b) most likely make a sunken, because it's very probable that he will be superior in ling numbers. Of course you could go constant ling production as well, but then the idea of expanding wouldn't be very logical, since your economy wouldn't improve fast. (125+lost of a drone)
c) making your expansion sensible by producing a few drones (150-350)
d) of course prepare yourself for the switch by building a den and researching an upgrade (100/50+150/150)
So in a relatively small period of time the costs would approximately be 775-975/200 to unable tech switching. It's pretty obvious that this gives an enormous advantage in that time to your opponent. He has the initiative - he can either attack you (and if he wasn't hurt before he will most likely suceed) or expand himself (which is more safe) and maybe switch to lurker or build an additional gas expansion.
I also do not understand the point of combining hydra and scourge. Firstly, before you have a reasonable amount of hydralisks he already should have such a number (at least 2 groups) of mutalisks that makes scourge very, very unefficient. Secondly I doubt you would have the gas to simultaneously produce both of them.
Since you wrote about an unrelated muta-muta thought I will post mine as well. One of my friends, which I truly admire for his invention to the game once wondered why people don't bring overlords (you would of course have to research speed for them) for muta-muta wars as a cover for splash damage. Of course it has its disadvantages (you have to research speed and in case of a lost battle you would most likely lose most of your Overlords as well), but still a very interesting idea. He came up with hundreds of things like that, which really helped him in the first two years of the game.
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tomsOn
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United States33432 Posts
You need to make a TON of drones to do what you're saying. You can't do that while you're ling/scouring, since every unit counts then. That means you'll have to do it after you expand and have sunk/spore to make up for missing troops. You'll die there unless you're god ;(
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Ya, first about the unrelated muta-muta thingie. I saw one 1.09 or 1.08 replay of H.O.T-Forever vs JJu where the game went far to late game with devourers & stuff. In that game I remember one of the bringing in overlords to take the splash damage. That is of course really efficient because of the +9 damage the mutals take from the acid spores
a & b) Muta using opponent is probably forced to build spores too to be able to defend vs an early scourge user who rather easily can rape up small amounts of muta. A sunken (at least one or two) is required, that is not free, but in case of opponent not going to upgraded ling, scourgelings should be able to fend off his expansion or at least defend vs possible attacks. The opponent still needs to build up spore to his expansion too and sunken won't be bad for extreme safety. Upgraded lings that run to his back can do 'eavy damage. Ling production of course is nearly stopped at this point because some drone making. Sunken or two will be required yes, which is both expensive and giving him the advantage on that side. You also don't need too many drones at your exp to maintain production because of the highish drone count in your main.
c) In case of him expanding too, he'll need to use at least same amount of resources for drones, while you already get minerals with 'em. This is the point when you might be left back in troops but the advantage lost will be gained quite fast with the mining.
d) It's true it costs but hydras are cheaper than mutas.
Having 12 scourge with the mutals might be enough if they're well spread and don't go first. After hydras engage the mutalisks. Scourges come to help, making the muta either retreat or take heavy lossage.
In the beginning the scourge fleets should try to keep the muta count as low as possible of course so he won't have full peace of making up a mass fleet. This at least forces him to do at least one spore, or he will get scourgelinged to death. In my opinion the switch really costs only the tech used for it since expo protection will be quite much similar. The opponent might also be forced to go mass sunken which is more than expensive, is it not.
It would be nice to try this vs a good player such as yourself T_T; You have words of wisdom there.
Still you say you do not understand the point of combining hydra and scourge. If you take 2 gas, you'll have at least the same amount of gas your opponent has, probably more (of which some go to upgrades). Your opponent will most likely upgrade mutas and possibly lings too. These even the scales in numbers. You then have possibility to make 2 hydras and 2 scourges for the price of one mutalisk. However you're hatches might not be able to produce both so the main weight is to be put on hydra. Extra gas goes pretty nicely on the upgrades which make the mass superior imo. Hmmn, It would require a lot of testing and my victories with this strat might've been just a) luck b) lack of skill on opponent side or c) hack which some people claim :DD haha. Ya
Mayb we'll zvz some time (
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On August 03 2003 17:47 Waxangel wrote:
You need to make a TON of drones to do what you're saying. You can't do that while you're ling/scouring, since every unit counts then. That means you'll have to do it after you expand and have sunk/spore to make up for missing troops. You'll die there unless you're god ;(
Well then I don't have to worry about dying, do I? :D
And you really don't need that many drones. The build I use gives better eco than normal korean builds and still gives possibility to pressure early on. After expansion is gotten, a little moval of drones might not be a bad idea to the exp. Then make up a few drones to have 'bout 8-9 in both mineral bases + at least 3 at gas, little later second gas mayb too - I've managed to get along with one gas quite well with the cost of not so many scourges. It is true that the defence costs quite a lot but opponent will probably do the same and maybe even go mass sunk which costs hell lot as I replied to tomson already
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United States33432 Posts
On August 03 2003 17:56 Muhweli wrote: Show nested quote +On August 03 2003 17:47 Waxangel wrote:
You need to make a TON of drones to do what you're saying. You can't do that while you're ling/scouring, since every unit counts then. That means you'll have to do it after you expand and have sunk/spore to make up for missing troops. You'll die there unless you're god ;( Well then I don't have to worry about dying, do I? :D And you really don't need that many drones. The build I use gives better eco than normal korean builds and still gives possibility to pressure early on. After expansion is gotten, a little moval of drones might not be a bad idea to the exp. Then make up a few drones to have 'bout 8-9 in both mineral bases + at least 3 at gas, little later second gas mayb too - I've managed to get along with one gas quite well with the cost of not so many scourges. It is true that the defence costs quite a lot but opponent will probably do the same and maybe even go mass sunk which costs hell lot as I replied to tomson already
that's a gazillion drones you want for free T_T
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Soooo... Here is one of my first tryouts. In this rep however I upgraded ling attack first, then armor, but it demonstrates the idea quite well. I however cannot say this dood is too good but I didn't need to micro the hydra nearly at all in the end
Strategical tryout vs M1-GonX
I hope the dood I played this against won't get mad ;D
[edit] So in this rep I do many things unlike I would do with the things I said. For example the attack for the lings + I make hardly no scourge at all in the late game
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Wax, the opponent will most probably be doing drones too. If not and he fails his attack, he will be left behind hell lot
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United States33432 Posts
On August 03 2003 18:07 Muhweli wrote: Wax, the opponent will most probably be doing drones too. If not and he fails his attack, he will be left behind hell lot
why would he :O
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So you're suggesting that he'll rather go one base vs the expansion you can hypothetically keep?
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That is a factor that would just increase the amount of advatage gotten from the earlier expand and it might be too late for him to expand then. 2 base hydra without lurks can probably with or without the help of scourge, rape the 1base mutal -_-;
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United States33432 Posts
On August 03 2003 18:28 Muhweli wrote:
That is a factor that would just increase the amount of advatage gotten from the earlier expand and it might be too late for him to expand then. 2 base hydra without lurks can probably with or without the help of scourge, rape the 1base mutal -_-;
if you're going scourge/ling, he's going to use all the larva he has on troops, as are you, until your exp completes. From there you can place some towers/power and start switching to hydras, while he can exp or make troops. Depending on how your scourge usage vs mutas was, chances are he's going to trample over you if he makes troops -.-
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There's always a chance. The one expanding first has the disadvantage because the opponent might get enough troops to run over him. This thing however exists in every zvz in my opinion. The strat trusts the few extra minerals gotten from larger amount of drones
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United States33432 Posts
On August 03 2003 19:21 Muhweli wrote: There's always a chance. The one expanding first has the disadvantage because the opponent might get enough troops to run over him. This thing however exists in every zvz in my opinion. The strat trusts the few extra minerals gotten from larger amount of drones
Then it's all about how well you can use your scourge. If you can use them to fuck up his muta so much that you can exp and power safe, you'll win doing anything -.-;;
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On August 03 2003 16:53 ShAsTa wrote: btw 2-2 hydra > muta and no it wasn't tsu. It was a game vs noenoe.
u lost vs noenoe?
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On August 03 2003 19:52 Waxangel wrote: Show nested quote +On August 03 2003 19:21 Muhweli wrote: There's always a chance. The one expanding first has the disadvantage because the opponent might get enough troops to run over him. This thing however exists in every zvz in my opinion. The strat trusts the few extra minerals gotten from larger amount of drones Then it's all about how well you can use your scourge. If you can use them to fuck up his muta so much that you can exp and power safe, you'll win doing anything -.-;;
Doing what I'm suggesting is hell lot sexier than mass mutal
[edited, cuz i pasted inside quote]
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hydras are most of the time raped cuz a single reason, mobility... lets say he see you exiting base, then he would kick the crap out of your main with his mutas, and if u split forces u would still beat the crap out of any half he wishes, so IMO hydras sux.
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On August 04 2003 01:12 baal wrote:
hydras are most of the time raped cuz a single reason, mobility... lets say he see you exiting base, then he would kick the crap out of your main with his mutas, and if u split forces u would still beat the crap out of any half he wishes, so IMO hydras sux.
Maybe I'll play you sometime. The mobility issue is pretty well discussed and is indeed thing that screws hydra users most. I also covered the fact that hydra proction won't stop upon leaving a the base so his timing has to be rather good to engage the main at the moment there is no hydra. That is why one should always try to eliminate all possible scoutlings etc from the level. We all should also remember that we have scourge to aid anywhere. It's still mobile. Maybe even queens to cast ensnare and parasite <-- That would reduce zergs mobility AND the force to fight.
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Oh yeah and as I also mentioned before, "hydras suck" comments are not the ones I like to hear...
There will soon be enough material for me to gather a larger article concerning the subject. So if you have more of these constructive comments, ideas, counter-ideas etc. I would like to hear them.
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basically mutes suck and are useless wen hydra have +2 armor/carapace and even so if they have gretaer mobility, wats to stop u fomr playing a hu dies first, cuz mutes kill buildings rather slow, hydras have the faster cool down rate compared to mutes and with hydras being able to gain the maximum agrregate attack rate compared to mutes its sensible to say that hydras>mutes... also dra effectiveness improves as the number of hydra increases (even in small numbers, it would surely increase alot more having an extra 8 or so) compare to mutes, its too expensive (gas wise) ;o~ (besides filers own mutes full stop.)
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Norway10161 Posts
I have not read all of the replies, but the original strategy seems good. But you will need good control to pull it off - pure scourge is not easy vs good muta user. I want to test it.
As I heard muhwelli is/was top3 zerg I don't forsee that to be a problem
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Norway10161 Posts
On August 03 2003 13:13 ShAsTa wrote: I didn't read all the post so it's possible this is already said but; There was this game where I went mut/ling vs another zerg who doesn't seem to be doing anything, only putting up spores 10 sec be4 I had muts. So I expanded and as the games continues I see he has hydras. Meanwhile I'm laughing my ass off cuz I think he's some newb. Well, after 10 mins or so (I really don't remember) he comes out with 20 hydras or so and completely destroys my army of I dunno 40 mutas and a bunch of lings (I really don't remember the numbers only that I had alot more ) Well when he came out his hydras we're 2-2 and practicly owned my mutas. He had put up 2 chambers and grading till he had 2-2 and then burst out and won the game. He said he already had kicked some koreans with that strat. Just to let you guys know there are other viable ways.
If you managed to lose 40 mutas to 20 hydras you must have ran them back and forth above the hydras for 20 minutes before you hit attack.
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there is a replay-link in this thread where muhweli tries out the strat, no one gonna comment on that instead of the theory?
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On August 04 2003 12:50 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:As I heard muhwelli is/was top3 zerg I don't forsee that to be a problem
Hahaha, where did you hear that ;D That would probably be only in Finland cuz besides Ovvi I am pretty much the only one to play
Btw, sata had a good point. Though the opponent in the rep ain't too good, it demonstrates the idea a lil' bit. Yet I told that the strat used in the replay isn't 100% same as described. I will be uploading some reps to my page in case of some interest WHEN I get the page up and running. This should be within a month.
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hmm tkwl if u played the game I played I garantee you. You would've lost. You see this 'newb' going hydras and imediately you lay back and sit there clicking on some buildings to entertain yourself. You never expected this opponent would actually do some dmg. You massed some mutas (it wasn't 40vs20) and expect an easy victory. Then he comes out with some hydras. You think o goodie I can end this stupid game. You blindly attack all his hydras with everything you got. Before realizing he has 2-2.
There are other issues besides unit control that can determine a game. Think about it.
And I would like if you didn't act so (hmm what's the right word?) pompous.
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Haha, this TLT replay shows pretty much what ShAsTa is talking about. I swear the gods if I was the muta user, i would've won.
Gosu replay
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Very well written. Gj yO~
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well
i really have problems playing against hydra
lots of hydra with up + 3 lurker, can hold lots of muta and lings.
the problema with mobility, if you attack his base with your muta, he will go to your base, and hydras can cut you off faster than muta
i lost a game, like that
i was on advantage, but he moved on to my base with 2 lurker + ling + hydras + queen. so he stopped all my lings, and mutas dont have anything to do around the map ( spore + hydra )
now i wanna know, the counters for hydra
do not say "micro" coz 30 hydra + 2 lurker vs 20 muta + tons of lings, is almost impossible to make a good attack. also, hydra upgraded > muta upgraded =(
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At the early stages of game (and why not later on) burrowling is a relatively good counter. You can also decide to go mass sunk and tech to guardians which will eventually get eaten by the scourge One possibility of course is to go lurker yourself but you'll then risk your aerial superiority and in case of him switching to muta without going to lurker, you'll be behind in gas. Depends on the situation though.
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I am quite sorry about the other thread, I am just tired Hope it didn't hurt XaI)CyRiC's feelings. I really do. I really REALLY do. However at this hour I didn't have anything else to do and it felt like a good idea T_T; I'm SORRY! Please accept my humble apology and set my anti-racist butt free ._.
I hope this thread doesn't fall to the same category T_T;
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Norway10161 Posts
On August 04 2003 15:58 ShAsTa wrote:
hmm tkwl if u played the game I played I garantee you. You would've lost. You see this 'newb' going hydras and imediately you lay back and sit there clicking on some buildings to entertain yourself. You never expected this opponent would actually do some dmg. You massed some mutas (it wasn't 40vs20) and expect an easy victory. Then he comes out with some hydras. You think o goodie I can end this stupid game. You blindly attack all his hydras with everything you got. Before realizing he has 2-2.
There are other issues besides unit control that can determine a game. Think about it.
And I would like if you didn't act so (hmm what's the right word?) pompous.
Wtf pompous. I wasnt flaming you or anything, you just make up some numbers out of thin air and expect to be a part of a discussion? Besides, belgian player always go hydra anyway.
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Norway10161 Posts
Okai. All the belgian players i have played maybe with the exception of krotter back in his prime went hydra. I think.
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Mayb it's in their blood -_-;
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Norway10161 Posts
On August 05 2003 14:23 Muhweli wrote:
Mayb it's in their blood -_-;
Yes! Much like Jeanne 'D Arc, belgian players have voices in their heads, voices telling them to go hydra. Sooner or later, they will be burned as witches.
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whats the point writing this into a 3 page essay?
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What's the point of your existence.
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On August 05 2003 00:40 Muhweli wrote: At the early stages of game (and why not later on) burrowling is a relatively good counter. You can also decide to go mass sunk and tech to guardians which will eventually get eaten by the scourge One possibility of course is to go lurker yourself but you'll then risk your aerial superiority and in case of him switching to muta without going to lurker, you'll be behind in gas. Depends on the situation though.
yes, who go hydra first, i always do burrow ling, is the only way to stop, till tech to dians, but when he goes muta and change to hydra in the middle, is LOT difficult, coz he will have muta, hydra and lings, so burrow lings will not be as efficient. tech to dians would take to long too, coz u have spent much money in mutas, also, he still have the mutas and spire
IMO ( just learned that imo mean in my opinion =P )
Muta and after hydra >>>> only hydra
maybe i will post a rep of mine here, of a game that i lost for hydra, so you can say what i did wrong, or just say that im a n00b =P
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Hehe, losing to hydra is easy Hydra also pwnz because you can get relatively big new mass after losing one :D So it's probably the best way to make a comeback if you're behind at gas.
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Muhweli you are so GOSU !!11 8D
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Muhweli grouping 7 muta is very good until you reach a point when you have above 25 muta. Switch back to 12 group muta if you have 25 + muta.
The hydra strat seems nice, but i think you'll wont make it vs harass/good micro muta users.
Grades in the beginning all relay on the situation. If you chose not to grade, but you are afraid to get outgraded in late game use 2 spire.
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Have you ever tried incorporating queens for ensnare to counter muta mobiltiy? It works decent if you keep 3-4 queens constantly ensnaring the mutas, then followup with ling/hydra of your own. But this strat does have problems...
a) its hard to leave your base when mutas park over a cliff or something and then he has lings out front containing you. Whenever you leave your base, the mutas attack your expo (ensnare helps here) and if you stay protecting your expo the other zerg can take the map.
b) what if the other players adds lurker to their army? it is a major pain fighting sunken/lurker without muta support. In fact, its virutally impossible to break through without mutas of your own.
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1 hydra + 2 scourge cost as much as 1 muta (cost effective anyone? ^_^)
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I know I've read this somewhere else :O
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yes.
i say it in every zvz thread that has been posted.
no one listens though.
and when i win them with hydras they call me lucky.
oh well.
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err, i got distracted while on the phone.
sorry for bringing this thread to the fore!
my bad
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and it shoudl be in strategy forum! not broodwar.
<3 admins
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EPT
