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I am bringing this up because I want to hear some skilled opinions on this. By this mean that if you don't know anything on the subject, please don't answer at all. Also, this "article" here doesn't contain anything accurate or constant that should, could or will not be changed. So, here I go...
New and more efficient Zerg vs Zerg
Hydra's in ZvZ? Many people know the strategies, even sometimes use hydra strats, however hydra strategies from one base suck their asses off. Hydra from 2 base is a viable strategy, but quickexpanding is always risky and vulnerable. Pure hydra is not very efficient vs a well trained mutaling user.
Korean style zerg vs zerg -> starting off with scourgeling is a powerful opening giving possibility for early on expansion, usually faster than a muta user because of the great amount of troops and opponent's lack of mutalisks. Upgraded lings also are something so superior, that mutal user's expansion is usually delayed.
With this information known I went on to my point. Starting off with a build such as 12hat 11gas 10(/11)pool (which dies to rushes, yes I know, but is good counter to korean poolgas build). After pool is finished, morph lair and pump lings while making an evo and starting carapace upgrade when ready. Pump on lings and get spire for scourge. Ling speed is of course researched. After this, and occasionally before but after the upgrade is complete, this is the time to go offensive. Of course we know zvz is pretty intensive match up so if you see a point to make up damage to your opponent before, do it. Just keep him from expanding and at this very point expand yourself while scourging all that you can see. Scourging must be made efficiently and it is good to build up at least one spore for failurecoverage early on.
We're now at the point where we've claimed a successful expansion which'll be protected as the player seems fit (one spore at least). With lings ready to rape opponent in case of him leaving his base and scourge scourging off the skies. Build up drones for the expansion. Now morph hydra den. Continue on producing scourge, ling and drone. Remember to scout the whole map to prevent hidden expansions, from this point on, mobility is decreased a bit so you might not be able to handle them properly. Also, you might need to build up a fourth hatchery at this point. First upgrade hydra speed while upgrading second carapace for hydra (or attack if you see it fit, i suppose you could do second evo as well). One gas might be enough - That, i don't know. No overpowering should be allowed to keep the advantage gotten.
After hydra speed and range are finished, lurker tech is to be made. At this whole time, hydras are pumped like no tomorrow (and scourge with extra gas). At least 1 hat hydra should be rallied at main and spores to be added so that when attack is launched, there would be at least 3 at each base to prevent buttrape, before hyt can get to help.
You'd probably be having an advantage in the upgrades as well as resources. Morph three lurkers (One for muta sniperage which might occur [backup that is]) and two to finish off with lings. You'll probably have quite big mass atm and you can go offensive. You should have hydra,ling,scourge and some lurkers. Make a hellish frontal attack with all units accompanied and finish your opponent off.
From many points in this strat, timing is essential. I am not quite sure how the timing will fit in, but from the little experiences i've made, i've noticed that the builds are very viable and can handle almost any kind of scenario. The opponent will probably trying to do the usual expansion & tech to guard stuff because your lack of mobility. However scourge is there to help. Mass sunkens will probably also occur - There are a few ways to deal with it. In my experience, the mass with the upgrades at hand is big enough to go through sunkenmuta(ling  . However this won't probably be the case always, so either dark swarm or drop is the way to handle this. Keeping overlords with the attack might not be bad idea anyways, because they'll absorb some splash damage.
Also, 5th hat can be at some point made to take third base. This is of course optional and some people might feel it's not safe. Mineral only base would be enough for the two gasses at hand.
Some additions and thoughts:
-Burrowlings could be used for more efficient scouting AND to prevent opponent from building hatches all over the map without first bringing overlord there. This might also work for his natural to gain a little more time if the ling can be taken there secretly.
-Attack before lurker tech can of course be made, but i'd wait at least 20 hydra to pop out with the lings before going. DEPENDS!
-Losing one wave of attack doesn't necessarily mean loss since hydrascourge is very cost effective strategy and you can probably cover up some hydras to defend up in time. a couple of lurkers accompanied by a sunken neutralize the ling thread.
-When you have lurkers, opponent is required to add overlords upon attacks which makes him more vulnerable if the attack fails. It also slows him down quite a lot.
Summary:
So the basic idea would be to start off with scourgeling w/ armor upgrade followed by rather quick expansion and hydraswitch with scourge, 4 hats and later on lurkers. (not forgetting hard upgrading).
Scourgeling => expansion => hydrascourgeling => hydrascourgelurkling
A COMPLETELY unrelated thought to ZvZ Muta wars
Everyone seems to group mutas as groups of 12 mutalisks. Then in the mutawar, fire is concentrated on one muta with 120 hitpoints. Each muta deal 9 damage making it the total of 108 damage which is 12 damage short of killing a mutalisk. After that, every mutalisk (at least too many mutals) shoot again resulting in waste of hits because the mutal taking the damage would die to 2 mutalisk attack). Therefore grouping mutalisks in a groups of 7 mutals, we would deal 63 damage at once, and second hit would be fatal only over 6hp which would cover the possible regeneration of the mutalisk too. Of course if you happen to have 14 mutals you can concentrate them all to one to have one shot kills, but again, after that you'll be doing unefficient hits (with 15 or so).
Just thoughts. Thank you. And in the end I want to add that please don't post anything if you don't really know about the subject  All kinda commentary however is welcome. Both positive and negative.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
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I'm 100% unqualified to actually comment on the post, but the unrelated note is fairly innovative.
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Nicely written, but I know nothing 
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On August 02 2003 22:33 [pG]Rekrul wrote:
Nice post.
I know. ;D
On August 02 2003 22:35 Mkoms wrote:
I'm 100% unqualified to actually comment on the post, but the unrelated note is fairly innovative.
On August 02 2003 22:41 Refrain[FriZ] wrote: Nicely written, but I know nothing
Thx.
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[QUOTE]On August 02 2003 22:31 Muhweli wrote:
A COMPLETELY unrelated thought to ZvZ Muta wars
Everyone seems to group mutas as groups of 12 mutalisks. Then in the mutawar, fire is concentrated on one muta with 120 hitpoints. Each muta deal 9 damage making it the total of 108 damage which is 12 damage short of killing a mutalisk. After that, every mutalisk (at least too many mutals) shoot again resulting in waste of hits because the mutal taking the damage would die to 2 mutalisk attack). Therefore grouping mutalisks in a groups of 7 mutals, we would deal 63 damage at once, and second hit would be fatal only over 6hp which would cover the possible regeneration of the mutalisk too. Of course if you happen to have 14 mutals you can concentrate them all to one to have one shot kills, but again, after that you'll be doing unefficient hits (with 15 or so).
QUOTE]
Impressive thought
You have a problem early game against any z player who pops down spores early and just goes 3 hatch lings w/ ups. If they stick to it, the game's going to be over before any expansion ever comes up. Also, when your mobility goes down, the lings keeping him in won't hold and he can prolly also expo freely, so you'll only have mineral advan for a little. That's all I can really think of. Nice post
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NICELY WRITTEN
too bad your [url="http://www.wgtour.com/member.php?datab=broodwar&id=156"]TLT record[/url] sucks!
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On August 02 2003 22:53 Vicious)Soul wrote:
You have a problem early game against any z player who pops down spores early and just goes 3 hatch lings w/ ups. If they stick to it, the game's going to be over before any expansion ever comes up. Also, when your mobility goes down, the lings keeping him in won't hold and he can prolly also expo freely, so you'll only have mineral advan for a little. That's all I can really think of. Nice post
To this... This is an issue of adaptation. Seeing your opponent go 3hat pure ling, you can just go muta and not expand just yet. Since you did the upgrade before expanding, you can probably fend the lings off until you get to control his ramp, or then just make a few mutes and go lurker. With mutas you should be able to take the expansion and continue on teching. Of course it probably won't be a good idea to start producing hydra just yet vs a zerg going pure ling, but go muta. A logical followup for the zerg not getting his lings through might be either one base hydra or scourge which, as time shows, will come up pretty much too late to stop your expansion.
However upon seeing the massling, you should just go straight to lurker since it counters both ling and hydra thread and until lurks (which are cheap vs lings imo) you'll be able to fend off with mute.
Aaaight.
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On August 02 2003 23:08 88)SuperCod~ wrote:
NICELY WRITTEN
too bad your [url="http://www.wgtour.com/member.php?datab=broodwar&id=156"]TLT record sucks! [/url]
Thanks for bringing this up, very essential for the nature of the post, also checking up my wgt record would be essential because I do not rock at that either, I have prolly 1-0 statistics. And I have to say how happy I am that your TLT record is Godly. We all know that TLT record is a direct measure of skill, no matter who, when and in what circumstances you have played. If you do not feel like giving any comments with a little relation to the topic at hand, please stfu, die to gonorrhea and burn in the flames of hell. k thx bye ~~!
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About the completely unrelated thoughts:
This is correct for the first attact, but keep in mind that the muta attack "bounces", so if you (with a group of 12) attack one at a time (in the same order as the bouncing) it will give one hit kills.
Also, if you group them in 7's, you will loose efficiency whenever 1 muta dies, as this will make the group it was in have to make three shots (but this is WITHOUT adding the "bouncing").
Anyway.. I guess I could sum this up to; the nature of the muta attack makes it a bit hard to make as effective as possible (without insane micro).
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Instead of grouping them in groups of 7, shouldn't you group them in like groups of 9 or 10?
1 or 2 of them are going to die FAST, then that group you have will be horribly innefficient
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On August 02 2003 23:08 88)SuperCod~ wrote:
NICELY WRITTEN
too bad your [url="http://www.wgtour.com/member.php?datab=broodwar&id=156"]TLT record sucks! [/url]
too bad your html sucks
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The first strat you mentioned I've seen many times, sometimes during the ling/scourge into hydra process they get a handfull of lurkers so mass ling counters are gone.
My opinion of this is that if your switching to hydra after gaining the advantage with a scourge/ling opening, which btw your opening will not have enough gas for enough scourge to stop well microed defencive muta, but if you are switching to hydra, because you have gained an advantage then wouldn't it seem logical to plop down a spore(or2) second gas get muta carpace, or attack depending on your preferance and have advantage in a battle where you have more muta and more upgraded lings?
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AttackZerg, 12hat 11gas gives quite same amount of gas that normal korean 12poolgas (whatever the build is gives. So the gas that goes to the upgrade is insignificant since scourge is cheaper in the beginning. Many koreans start off with 3 hat scourgeling, followed by exp and then go mutaswitch. Then again the muta user is also required to make lings which results in early advantage too. With the build I mentioned (btw, after pool power to 12 or 13 drones), you'll get 12 scourge before he can get even near 6 mutes. So you'll got the ling advantage which CAN (this of course again depends) lead you on getting up his ramp which'll mean significant damage for him in form of loss of drones or at least time. At this time you probably have put up (at least you should) your expansion and it have to be secured with spore of course. Having 2 spores per base ain't too much at this point and as I mentioned, third should be added before attacking.
And if his muta is well-microed defensive, he won't attack until you have +1 exp secured with spores. Your lings will keep him busy anyways and as I mentioned, scourge can be a good way to get you on his ramp. After lings are attacking, there will be enough scourge to harvest his mutes despite one spore (2 might be too much). He has to withdraw his mutas from shooting your lings when the scourgii arrive
Some defensive issues
At the hydra phase, some hatcheries should be rallied to main because pure spore probably cannot fend off the attacking muta without significant losses. Hydras aren't very mobile as we know.
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On August 02 2003 23:33 Ymar wrote:
About the completely unrelated thoughts:
This is correct for the first attact, but keep in mind that the muta attack "bounces", so if you (with a group of 12) attack one at a time (in the same order as the bouncing) it will give one hit kills.
Also, if you group them in 7's, you will loose efficiency whenever 1 muta dies, as this will make the group it was in have to make three shots (but this is WITHOUT adding the "bouncing").
Anyway.. I guess I could sum this up to; the nature of the muta attack makes it a bit hard to make as effective as possible (without insane micro).
On August 02 2003 23:35 travis wrote:
Instead of grouping them in groups of 7, shouldn't you group them in like groups of 9 or 10?
1 or 2 of them are going to die FAST, then that group you have will be horribly innefficient
You have a point there and I thought about it myself too. 8 mutes should at least be included. The splash damage issue is correct too i think. Not sure how did the splash damage go? 3dmg 2dmg 1dmg? So 12 muta splash damage would be 36 damage in total. 9 mutes would then do 27 damage splash. +81 from their original damages would be 108. Hmmn Now that it is specified further, 10 mutes would probably be the answer PLUS the next waypoint always to the muta that the splash hit to. In my opinion that kinda micro is quite impossible because mutals are grouped and kept tight. That is why 7 would be more optimal and for pre-caution 8-10 mutas 8 being prolly enough (cuz of the splashes made!).
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Hydras are not a viable strategy to ZvZ because it is weak to muta/ling, and it is a slow strategy. Unless you do quick expo, turtle to 4 hatch hydras and make 3-4 lurks with ur mass amounts of hydras which will own muta/ling pretty good.
There are many things to consider if u do the standard pool/gas build. IF he does try to make 3hatch/scourge/+1 ling to beat you make a spore and just build up mutas. Mass mutas > mass scourge. Group your mutas so that he can't scourge your mutas easily. After that just camp in ur base and build up mutas, dont move around cuz u risk beign hunted down by scourges.
If he doesnt do 3hatch/scourge/+1 ling but the same build as you, it is VERY IMPORTANT that you DO NOT make ANY SPORES UNLESS YOUR SPIRE IS 300 health behind. If he makes spores, that costs 2 drones, 225 minerals. Nobody attacks the other person's base anyways, it is suicide. Expand if he makes spores. Now you have advantage in gas, you should win, keep pressing him with ur resource advantage.
If he is a good zerg and the two of you are neck to neck with mutas, then expand to your second natural or a mineral expo only. With mineral advantage, make more hatcheries/lings/expoes and keep attacking.
Additional frequent beginner's mistakes:
DO NOT horde your overlords in a corner, they are useless there. Most z users like to play in the dark with overlords in their base. MOVE THEM ALL OVER THE MAP. Take half the map with ovies. Park them near your base to give u a warning if he foolishly attacks ur base with mutas.
DO NOT DO HIT AND RUN ATTACKS WITH MUTAS unless you CLEARLY have the mutalisk advantage. After watching yellow replays, I notice that ONE single hit and run attack could cost u the game. A good zerg will chase you, and if he is close to you he could essentially wipe out ur whole muta army before it gets back to your base. How? When your mutas are in shooting range of his, DO NOT use the mouse to attack his mutas. Use the attack command on the keyboard and select the area just above the enemie's mutalisk path. Your mutalisks will attack while continuing to chase his mutas. This is kinda hard to explain but watch pro zvz games and you will see they NEVER do hit and run attacks.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Also, DO NOT upgrade +1 muta attack right when the spire morphs. The early game (up to 15 mins) is when most ZvZ games are over or the winner is decided. The upgrade takes too many minerals and gas out of ur low supply. 2 lings and 2 more scourges could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Get upgrade only when you have expanded and it is stalemate.
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On August 03 2003 00:27 Tien wrote:
Hydras are not a viable strategy to ZvZ because it is weak to muta/ling, and it is a slow strategy. Unless you do quick expo, turtle to 4 hatch hydras and make 3-4 lurks with ur mass amounts of hydras which will own muta/ling pretty good.
There are many things to consider if u do the standard pool/gas build. IF he does try to make 3hatch/scourge/+1 ling to beat you make a spore and just build up mutas. Mass mutas > mass scourge. Group your mutas so that he can't scourge your mutas easily. After that just camp in ur base and build up mutas, dont move around cuz u risk beign hunted down by scourges.
If he doesnt do 3hatch/scourge/+1 ling but the same build as you, it is VERY IMPORTANT that you DO NOT make ANY SPORES UNLESS YOUR SPIRE IS 300 health behind. If he makes spores, that costs 2 drones, 225 minerals. Nobody attacks the other person's base anyways, it is suicide. Expand if he makes spores. Now you have advantage in gas, you should win, keep pressing him with ur resource advantage.
If he is a good zerg and the two of you are neck to neck with mutas, then expand to your second natural or a mineral expo only. With mineral advantage, make more hatcheries/lings/expoes and keep attacking.
Additional frequent beginner's mistakes:
DO NOT horde your overlords in a corner, they are useless there. Most z users like to play in the dark with overlords in their base. MOVE THEM ALL OVER THE MAP. Take half the map with ovies. Park them near your base to give u a warning if he foolishly attacks ur base with mutas.
DO NOT DO HIT AND RUN ATTACKS WITH MUTAS unless you CLEARLY have the mutalisk advantage. After watching yellow replays, I notice that ONE single hit and run attack could cost u the game. A good zerg will chase you, and if he is close to you he could essentially wipe out ur whole muta army before it gets back to your base. How? When your mutas are in shooting range of his, DO NOT use the mouse to attack his mutas. Use the attack command on the keyboard and select the area just above the enemie's mutalisk path. Your mutalisks will attack while continuing to chase his mutas. This is kinda hard to explain but watch pro zvz games and you will see they NEVER do hit and run attacks.
Who r u?
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On August 03 2003 00:36 Tien wrote:
Also, DO NOT upgrade +1 muta attack right when the spire morphs. The early game (up to 15 mins) is when most ZvZ games are over or the winner is decided. The upgrade takes too many minerals and gas out of ur low supply. 2 lings and 2 more scourges could mean the difference between victory and defeat. Get upgrade only when you have expanded and it is stalemate.
I DO know how to play normal ZvZ... I mean really. The only significant comment you really gave me was that "hydra's" don't work which do have a point. I do not see why my opponent going scourgeling puts me in a defencive position since that is what I am doing. The third hatch is just build to the expansion - I DO KNOW this is a disadvantage but it is assumable that the opponent will do likewise and we're in a situation which is pretty much even AKA adaptation is to be used here which means hydras aren't probably a good idea. However the point is that a dood going muta is forced to stay in his base until you've taken your relatively early expo. You then have 2 gas and YES you can go MUTA if you want but that wasn't my point! That is the strat that is used, not the strat I described. And with this advantage gotten here, hydraLURK is more efficient than going to it from an even situation. Yet you missed a little point which was to include scourge within this strat. This is why you don't have to power so much for the 4 hatcheries but to make scourge instead of 4 hat masshydra. After mutas engaging the hydras, well spread scourge fleet can deal damage to the mutas - one scourge per muta will be enough to kill it under the heavy hydra fire. And as you probably noticed, hydras do have 0-2 or 1-2 upgrades (at least they should) at this point so muta splash damage is reduced as well as ling damage dealt before lurkers are allowed to burrow.
So the 3 hat scourgelinging zerg forces you to adapt to the situation. It's not meant to be a strategy that is unbeatable in any situation...
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EPT
