EPTRenewal of Zerg versus Zerg - Page 2
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Ion)Positive
Morocco1389 Posts
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SurG
Russian Federation798 Posts
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
Many monkeys I have seen and several I've spanked, but never have I been raped by one | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
Too bad he has a dynamic IP tho T_T! | ||
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SurG
Russian Federation798 Posts
On August 03 2003 00:51 Muhweli wrote: Also your commentation on hydra sucking missed the whole point of my strat post, which is to switch to hydra from an advantageous position. Oh, you said it yourself now.  But the question remains. | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
On August 03 2003 00:50 SurG wrote: Well, i don't know. +1 ling/scourgeis pretty hard to pull off against good z user. Let's suppose you did that, made successful exp and delayed his expand for a while. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to go mutas at this point since you have 2 gases (which gives you huge advantage in muta numbers) instead of going hydras and by that putting yourself at defensive for some time? Why would you think hydras is more effective way to go at this point? The way I see it, once you accomplishe first phase of your plan, the game is basically won already. That is reasonable commentation, however in my opinion it is hell lot easier to suck muta attack vs enemy sporedomic base with this gas advantage than a pile of hydralurk on attack move . The idea is to create solid gameplay strategy that do not fall into one little mistake at controlling. And at the point you get 2 gasses, you've only done scourges this far. If the opponent microes good, he can keep his mutes without significant losses and take the expansion rather early himself. This is an exploration for another possibility which would be viable besides the old allboring muta one. And the hydras are supported by the scourges and when you think of it, you can get one hydra and 2 scourge with the price of one mutalisk <== That is why I think this idea might have a future.And I do not think the game is won by getting a little earlier expansion. At least I've managed to win vs some good players from the situation described. Oh and for some who have or are going to comment, please leave "hydras suck" comments out. Those are what I don't want here, at least not without good company of reasons. | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
On August 03 2003 00:55 SurG wrote: Oh, you said it yourself now. But the question remains.Since the strategy nearly automatically gives you a slight advantage, wouldn't it be interesting to explore viable options to continue? | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
On August 03 2003 00:52 [pG]Rekrul wrote: Too bad Cod just got banned again. Too bad he has a dynamic IP tho T_T! Sad. | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
On August 03 2003 00:59 ret wrote: if scourge come put muta on hold, scourge will do that weird bug thing and get owned v-.- You might have a point there :D | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
I know how normal ZvZ is played and how it goes if you go muta blablabla. My lil' mind just wants to believe there is another, more solid way to play this matchup. And furthermore, the idea is not yet to "win" with scourgeling. So "pulling off scourgeling vs a good player" only is to defend until the expansion is gotten for hydra & scourge production. [edit] And I will probably sum all the real results collected here up and make a whole coverage article on the subject (expanding it from the form it is in now) | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
Off-topic posts or flames will result in bad things. EDIT ^^ Better 1 than many! | ||
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Keanu_Reaver
Djibouti1432 Posts
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PPV_Jimmy
United States641 Posts
Actually testing it out in some games may bring up something that you wouldnt normally think of. | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
On August 03 2003 01:19 [pG]Rekrul wrote: Muhweli has my full support in his thread. Off-topic posts or flames will result in bad things.  (btw, thx ) | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
On August 03 2003 02:23 Keanu_Reaver wrote: I think you're spreading yourself a bit too thin when you switch to hydras...hydra upgrades, evo upgrades, powering your nat, and trying to maintain enough ling/scourge numbers to keep the pressure on him and/or defend vs his forces is a bit much when you've only got your main and a low drone count nat. If he decides to attack you around the time you've got maybe 6~ hydras you might be in trouble. Well it's not like you need too many drones to keep hydra production up anyways. When you take the expansion, you'll lingcount will in most cases be higher and you still have some scourge to defend up the mutals. When expansion is ready, spores are to be added to prevent mutals from doing damage and you can add sunken(s) if you feel uncertain of pure troop defence. And you don't have to keep that much pressure on your enemy after getting the expo secured. However the only game I've lost with this strategylike thing was when my opponent got a real fast hidden expansion thus giving him 3 gasses oh yeah and one game vs anon . So scouting is extremely important because the mutacounts will be too high.[edit] Oh yeah, and I didn't say it should be easy, but I believe that after practice it can be quite stable way of playing. On August 03 2003 02:30 PPV_Jimmy wrote: Nice ideas, your bw skills are indeed many. Have you tested these ideas out in a real game yet? How did it work? Actually testing it out in some games may bring up something that you wouldnt normally think of. I actually tried this with a friend winning 3-1 (where that one being the hidden expo). After that I've tried it on west (clan 30dom random duels...) without a single loss :D That might've been because of the lack of skill on the enemy's side and I've been called hacker in a few of those games :D I tend to try it at TLT to see if it really works. I kinda was going to try it vs anon but I sorta won two games out of three before even reaching that far. The third game which I lost was a fight a lil' fight but I totally sucked it from the beginning. So I've tested it against relatively good people and hope to do so in the future too. The thing is that scourgeling alone might win the game early on so it's not always clear to go and try. Upgraded lings that get up from a ramp protected by unupgraded lings, pretty much rape. Muta protection in that gase requires a lot of micro & scourge dodging | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
Your expo goes up, but u dont have enough money to be getting Armor, Hydra ups, Lurker grade, and spores. T_T ! However, i like your idea though - i just need pointing in the right direction. ~~ | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
On August 03 2003 03:12 Teroru wrote: hmm~~ When do u make drones for ur expo? if ur pumping ling/scourge, u dont have many drones - if u make drones, he has MORE ling/scourge than u, and u cannot expo Your expo goes up, but u dont have enough money to be getting Armor, Hydra ups, Lurker grade, and spores. T_T ! However, i like your idea though - i just need pointing in the right direction. ~~ Suppose you didn't try it yet. It might be hard to find the balance, I admit that and that is mostly because no one has done it before. And the case of opponent going scourgeling is tricky and might force you to do some adaptation. 12hat 11gas 10/11pool => power til 12/13 is pretty vulnerable to pools shorter than 12 (basically 4/6/8 and 9 pools), but gives quite good production at the beginning. The armor upgrade is done before expanding soon after the pool is done. I will be uploading some replays of my trials to my homepage when I get it done and online so they'll probably express the idea better and more accurately. As in always, many cases are of simple adaptation to the crisis and there is no correct One and Only answer to them. If enemy does something, you react to it, not continue with the thing you were making (unless you CAN ). Soo, you ask when to power. I'd say after at least one spore and a sunken are up in the expo. That should make it a lil' safe and if you have any doubt on your scourge, make two. Yet subkaiser t3h Zerg (some might know him) has stated that about 6-8 drones each base are able to keep up 2 base hyt. You'll of course need a few more but do not rush with them.Hope that answered the question. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
This gives you tons of gas to play with, and alot of early lings against the gas/pool strats. But when I say not enough gas, I mean would it not be better to have 400 more and a strong ling contingent and slightly less early money. 12 scourge vs 6 muta is a nice idea, but try it out against clumped muta who hold position and target scourge. quit a few less land, and scourging over 8 + muta it's pretty hard, and if they add a scourge or 4 into there repetoire [sp] your task then becomes [imho] daunting. Not to mention overlords on patrol around there expand and muta dancing to make your job even harder. And if they spot hydra they [should] will do the standard muta grades 2 evo's and mass sunken, mass drone, once you leave your base to attack there's mass muta counters are leathal and fast. I have stated my opinions and things I have be taught/learned zvz but I am not saying your wrong in any place where I disagree I am just presenting my view of the situation and my evaluation of the possiblities. This is fun. | ||
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