EPTFlaSh Explains Why There is No Protoss Bonjwas - Page 3
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Malongo
Chile3479 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia549 Posts
On May 24 2023 02:10 weiliem wrote: There was never a protoss Bonjwa simply because only 1 protoss player ever does well against Z. Other than that they're all eliminated by Z half way to finals..... Precisely. And it is also because no "starsense" can save you vs hydra busts - you WILL lose plenty such games, because you simply won't be able to scout it every time. Sorry, no "starsense" = comsat here. It's fairly simple. T is slightly overpowered, P is visibly underpowered. We literally have decades of proof. If it were any other game, it would get a balance patch. Here, there is too much dogma preventing this, unfortunately. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway772 Posts
On May 24 2023 03:47 Malongo wrote: The fact that some people still use the "Terran players skill is higher" is laughable. Probably because some people actually believe what Artosis says. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7045 Posts
On May 24 2023 03:27 G5 wrote: Bro... with respect, I know you watch the ASL games because you cast them. How is Mini the most impressive Protoss you've seen as of late? Are we all gonna pretend Mini wasn't taking massive risks or straight up cutting a million probes and all-inning in almost every game he played (especially his games vs Z) on his ASL runs? The only Protoss to win an ASL in years was one of the best Protoss' in the world, coin flipping and praying. Come on now. FlaSh in this video is telling himself what every other Terran player tells themselves, "Protoss doesn't win because of skill, not because of the race". Ludicrous. The advantage isn't huge but T and Z definitely are slightly superior to Protoss at the pro level simply due to how the races were designed. We have 25 years of evidence and most of the player base is Protoss yet they achieve the least. Come on now. Sometimes I don't even know what people think they're watching when they watch professional Starcraft. Im talking about careers here and u are picking this ASL season with a best of 1 format? Before the ASL Series Bisu made back to back finals in SSL. won 1 vs hero and loss 1. Then also made a final in the Vant Starleague where he loss vs Effort in the final. Rain won the KSL and the ASL also. If u ask me the most talented protoss players made really good runs when it mattered. Now is pretty clear ASL is not progamer priority anymore. So we need to judge based on proleague records and the few spons they do. Overall I think the most talented players in the scene are rewarded with few exceptions. As Mini making it to the ASL finals 4 times is not bad at all. He is the #1 Protoss if you ask me.Just watch his games in proleague or sponsored games. Today he just beat Rush 7-2. There is Snow or best never winning ASL but I wouldnt say it is cuz protoss is hard. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4289 Posts
On May 24 2023 04:00 Timebon3s wrote: Probably because some people actually believe what Artosis says. I've been saying for years that Arto's influence on people's BW "knowledge" and opinions is a huge net negaative, all things considered. He could have done so much better.. decided to be toxic instead. Sad. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4289 Posts
On May 24 2023 03:27 G5 wrote: Bro... with respect, I know you watch the ASL games because you cast them. How is Mini the most impressive Protoss you've seen as of late? Are we all gonna pretend Mini wasn't taking massive risks or straight up cutting a million probes and all-inning in almost every game he played (especially his games vs Z) on his ASL runs? The only Protoss to win an ASL in years was one of the best Protoss' in the world, coin flipping and praying. Come on now. FlaSh in this video is telling himself what every other Terran player tells themselves, "Protoss doesn't win because of skill, not because of the race". Ludicrous. The advantage isn't huge but T and Z definitely are slightly superior to Protoss at the pro level simply due to how the races were designed. We have 25 years of evidence and most of the player base is Protoss yet they achieve the least. Come on now. Sometimes I don't even know what people think they're watching when they watch professional Starcraft. +1 Thank You  | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway772 Posts
Instead he is just trash talking everyone and being bm all the time on stream. But I guess it makes him popular. Firebathero was a bit of an asshole too, but at the end of the day, it was entertaining…and isn’t that what video games are supposed to be? :D | ||
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ZeroByte13
799 Posts
Almost half of GM league are protosses, group stages of most tournaments often have more P than T+Z combined. Mind you, in Korea and EU most of them drop out fast and often in Ro8 there's only 1-2 left at most. And protoss players won a lot of big tournament with all/most of the best players participating. But they somehow almost never win the hardest/biggest tourney like World Championship or GSL. I.e. they often win (or at least used to win) tourneys with 5-10k prize for 1st, but not tourneys with 20k+ prizes. Out of 15+ GSLs since 2017 protoss won exactly 1, and none of the World Finals / IEMs since 2015. But how do you buff them so they're not completely OP at the level that's a tiny bit lower than literally top-5 players in the world? Could this be the case in BW too? | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1559 Posts
On May 24 2023 05:19 ZeroByte13 wrote: It could be like in SC2, I guess. Almost half of GM league are protosses, group stages of most tournaments often have more P than T+Z combined. Mind you, in Korea and EU most of them drop out fast and often in Ro8 there's only 1-2 left at most. And protoss players won a lot of big tournament with all/most of the best players participating. But they somehow almost never win the hardest/biggest tourney like World Championship or GSL. I.e. they often win (or at least used to win) tourneys with 5-10k prize for 1st, but not tourneys with 20k+ prizes. Out of 15+ GSLs since 2017 protoss won exactly 1, and none of the World Finals / IEMs since 2015. But how do you buff them so they're not completely OP at the level that's a tiny bit lower than literally top-5 players in the world? Could this be the case in BW too? When they were recruiting potential players for teams as practice partners, coaches had to wade through tons of protoss players to search for terran/zergs as protoss number was overwhelming by far in numbers | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 23 2023 22:57 JClave wrote: Snow said he picked Protoss because it suits his play style and personality. Not everyone wants to play Terran even if it means higher win rate. I find Terran playstyle quite boring in comparison. I feel like I could figure out everything if I just thought hard about it. But with Protoss, there are many things which are interesting problems to solve. For example, engaging Terran army as Protoss is interesting because I have to maneuver my army into them to trade efficiently which involve some calculated risks. I can't just camp somewhere and snipe enemies taking no risks on my side. You don't sound like you've ever tried Terran. By trying Terran, I mean getting to your highest achieved rank, as Terran. In many situations, Terran actually has to attack, and against Zerg, you almost always have to. If you let Protoss grow unchecked and are too passive, you will lose control of the game. In TvP, this principle is the most obvious against carriers. So you're often almost forced to attack, but when you do, Protoss will backstab and counterattack you, and since he has more bases than you, he can win the trade. This is also an interesting problem to solve. Both races are interesting, and if you think one is boring, I claim that it's because you don't understand it. Furthermore, I claim that if you played the other race to the same rating as the highest you achieved with your main, you would be forced to understand the other side, and would see that it is neither easy nor boring. Switching from Protoss to Terran made my PvT way better, so doing this may improve your skill at StarCraft in addition to makign you appreciate the game more. When I used Protoss before having used Terran, PvT was my weakest matchup, but now, I'm pretty good at PvT, after playing Terran. sAviOr in his prime played lots of Terran to become a master of ZvT. It works. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
The times of Boxer, Nada, Iloveoov, and even some of sAviOr's time to a lesser extent, had maps that were very bad for Protoss. Bisu's revolution fixed PvZ, but it required the right maps. For a long time, on most if not all maps that people played on, Terran slightly beat Zerg, Zerg slightly beat Protoss, but Protoss only slightly beat Terran for the early years. Soon, Terran became even to Protoss, but the other matchups remained slightly imbalanced, and ZvP was the worst. It was only after Bisu that Protoss stopped being underpowered, and for a while, Protoss even became the strongest race, during a time known as the age of the six dragons. This wasn't just handed down for free through maps, but was earned through innovation, like the one time that the pro ZvT winrate went significantly above 50%, which was after the first emergence of crazy zerg. After Bisu slew sAviOr, ended his reign, and fixed PvZ with his revolution, StarCraft started to resemble the game that we have today. Protoss entered its true form. The earliest bonjwas, although legendary gigachads whose deeds still inspire awe, are not relevant as data points in modern StarCraft. The game they played was too different. Only post Bisu StarCraft is relevant to us. Pre Bisu StarCraft may illustrate more general principles, so it's like reading Sun Tzu, but post Bisu StarCraft is something we can learn specifics from; it's more like reading Clausewitz, or even some modern analysis on the Vietnam war. Post Bisu StarCraft only gave us one bonjwa, Flash, and there was a long period of time during which Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong would all have become bonjwas if not for the existence of the other two + Stork. Those four players were the best for a very long time, and the first three took turns at being #1, with Stork beating them sometimes, but never really being at the very top of the top. Eventually, later, Flash got ahead and became the last bonjwa. For post Bisu StarCraft, the only StarCraft that resembles the modern game both in maps and knowledge (muta micro, P fast expanding vs Z, etc), the only StarCraft that's relevant to discussions of modern racial balance, we've only had one bonjwa. Although racial balance is tied to maps, and every matchup has been favoured to either side depending on maps, we can still say that on most maps of the type that people like to play on, Terran is the strongest. You can thus credibly make the claim that Terran is the strongest race. However, the number of bonjwas is not a good argument. What is a good argument is racial map statistics. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 23 2023 17:24 TMNT wrote: I would add that Flash's logic was wrong when he used Savior as an example to prove that Terran is not stronger. Of course it's skill that helped Savior beat all those Terrans, but it could also mean that Terran is stronger but Savior was able to overcome that balance issue with his skill. Same thing can be said for Bisu when he overcame the odds in the PvZ matchup despite Zerg being "stronger" in this matchup. This is the same guy who downplayed Jangbi's OSL titles after losing to him. And the whole Bonjwas argument is stupid anyway. The thing has a sample of 5 and dated back like 20 years ago. Bonjwa doesn't even mean the best player of all time. It's just they are the best during their time. 3 or 4 out of the 5 Bonjwas would get totally destroyed in modern BW. sAviOr won OSL against top tier players on Terran favoured maps. It was epic. Read this article, or just skim it, and look at the TvZ statistics for his opponents: https://tl.net/forum/final-edits/226236-god-of-the-battlefield-part-1 And consider that the maps were imba too. And he beat those guys in dominant, convincing, one sided fashion. Midas: 73% TvZ NaDa: 77% TvZ BoxeR: 83% TvZ (He was still good this late; he was actually a top tier player for a very long time, part of why he's a legend) Iloveoov: 93% TvZ This is why the term "bonjwa" emerged. sAviOr is the one who provoked it, and the term was retroactively applied to the previous players, whom you will notice are on the list of his conquests. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia982 Posts
Pretty much at any point there'd be someone who's really good at one of them but not the other, and there never was a truly "complete package" pro for P. Or if there was, they couldn't maintain that form for longer than a season(e.g. top form Jangbi, etc). Even though P has lacked champions for a very long time...hard to complain about balance too hard, when Mini can take almost any Z in a long series, and Snow can take any T in a long series(at least after Flash's retirement). Clearly the matchups can be won at the very top level, but historically it looks like they can't be reliably won by the same person. (obviously there's at least a small imbalance in absolute numbers, e.g. PvT being fairly even on average among pros, while PvZ isn't) | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
Protoss probably struggles at pro level for the same reason that Terran struggles at lower levels. It's easy to lose to someone who consistently puts up worse results than you. In professional StarCraft, it's just easier for Terran players to consistently beat players who put up worse results than them. I'm intentionally not saying better / worse because I know many people think if you play race A, you're a superior human, even if you never put up the results. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3479 Posts
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TMNT
3366 Posts
On May 24 2023 07:45 vOdToasT wrote: There hasn't been a Protoss bonjwa because for much of the game's history (during which most bonjwas emerged), Protoss was significantly underpowered against Zerg on most, if not all, of the maps played at the time. The first bonjwas were always likely to be Terran because the maps were Terran favoured. The game itself was also less explored; people didn't even muta micro, and Protoss didn't forge expand, and on many maps it wasn't even possible. The times of Boxer, Nada, Iloveoov, and even some of sAviOr's time to a lesser extent, had maps that were very bad for Protoss. Bisu's revolution fixed PvZ, but it required the right maps. For a long time, on most if not all maps that people played on, Terran slightly beat Zerg, Zerg slightly beat Protoss, but Protoss only slightly beat Terran for the early years. Soon, Terran became even to Protoss, but the other matchups remained slightly imbalanced, and ZvP was the worst. It was only after Bisu that Protoss stopped being underpowered, and for a while, Protoss even became the strongest race, during a time known as the age of the six dragons. This wasn't just handed down for free through maps, but was earned through innovation, like the one time that the pro ZvT winrate went significantly above 50%, which was after the first emergence of crazy zerg. After Bisu slew sAviOr, ended his reign, and fixed PvZ with his revolution, StarCraft started to resemble the game that we have today. Protoss entered its true form. The earliest bonjwas, although legendary gigachads whose deeds still inspire awe, are not relevant as data points in modern StarCraft. The game they played was too different. Only post Bisu StarCraft is relevant to us. Pre Bisu StarCraft may illustrate more general principles, so it's like reading Sun Tzu, but post Bisu StarCraft is something we can learn specifics from; it's more like reading Clausewitz, or even some modern analysis on the Vietnam war. Post Bisu StarCraft only gave us one bonjwa, Flash, and there was a long period of time during which Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong would all have become bonjwas if not for the existence of the other two + Stork. Those four players were the best for a very long time, and the first three took turns at being #1, with Stork beating them sometimes, but never really being at the very top of the top. Eventually, later, Flash got ahead and became the last bonjwa. For post Bisu StarCraft, the only StarCraft that resembles the modern game both in maps and knowledge (muta micro, P fast expanding vs Z, etc), the only StarCraft that's relevant to discussions of modern racial balance, we've only had one bonjwa. Although racial balance is tied to maps, and every matchup has been favoured to either side depending on maps, we can still say that on most maps of the type that people like to play on, Terran is the strongest. You can thus credibly make the claim that Terran is the strongest race. However, the number of bonjwas is not a good argument. What is a good argument is racial map statistics. This is an excellent post sir. Totally agreed. Bonjwa is not a good indication of race balance. You just expanded what I implied in an earlier post with history and details. This is why I always find these race balance threads interesting and never should be closed unless they descend into personal attacks. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On May 24 2023 07:45 vOdToasT wrote: Only post Bisu StarCraft is relevant to us. Pre Bisu StarCraft may illustrate more general principles, so it's like reading Sun Tzu, but post Bisu StarCraft is something we can learn specifics from; it's more like reading Clausewitz, or even some modern analysis on the Vietnam war. Post Bisu StarCraft only gave us one bonjwa, Flash, and there was a long period of time during which Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong would all have become bonjwas if not for the existence of the other two + Stork. Those four players were the best for a very long time, and the first three took turns at being #1, with Stork beating them sometimes, but never really being at the very top of the top. Eventually, later, Flash got ahead and became the last bonjwa. For post Bisu StarCraft, the only StarCraft that resembles the modern game both in maps and knowledge (muta micro, P fast expanding vs Z, etc), the only StarCraft that's relevant to discussions of modern racial balance, we've only had one bonjwa. Although racial balance is tied to maps, and every matchup has been favoured to either side depending on maps, we can still say that on most maps of the type that people like to play on, Terran is the strongest. You can thus credibly make the claim that Terran is the strongest race. However, the number of bonjwas is not a good argument. What is a good argument is racial map statistics. Great points sir | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4289 Posts
On May 24 2023 05:02 Timebon3s wrote: It actually is sad. He could use his influence for something positive. Instead he is just trash talking everyone and being bm all the time on stream. But I guess it makes him popular. Firebathero was a bit of an asshole too, but at the end of the day, it was entertaining…and isn’t that what video games are supposed to be? :D You can be immensely entertaining without constantly spewing bullshit and having a toxic influence on thousands of people, though. Easily. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
In my opinion protoss players aren't optimizing their units in PvZ. They gain only 70-80% out of them while Snow gets 90%+ because he cares about the details so much. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24604 Posts
On May 24 2023 05:19 ZeroByte13 wrote: It could be like in SC2, I guess. Almost half of GM league are protosses, group stages of most tournaments often have more P than T+Z combined. Mind you, in Korea and EU most of them drop out fast and often in Ro8 there's only 1-2 left at most. And protoss players won a lot of big tournament with all/most of the best players participating. But they somehow almost never win the hardest/biggest tourney like World Championship or GSL. I.e. they often win (or at least used to win) tourneys with 5-10k prize for 1st, but not tourneys with 20k+ prizes. Out of 15+ GSLs since 2017 protoss won exactly 1, and none of the World Finals / IEMs since 2015. But how do you buff them so they're not completely OP at the level that's a tiny bit lower than literally top-5 players in the world? Could this be the case in BW too? That is just not true. | ||
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