FlaSh Explains Why There is No Protoss Bonjwas

On May 23 2023 05:03 TT1 wrote:
TOSIS VINDICATED

im tired of seeing skinny FlaSh vids, show us some new fat FlaSh content plz 🎣

On May 23 2023 09:36 CicadaSC wrote:

What new content? Flash is exiled for scamming his Korean viewers and misleading them.

On May 23 2023 09:38 Postaljester_ wrote:
If flash goes and wins some asls as Protoss I’ll believe him. I have a hard time taking a crypto scammers opinion at face value.

On May 23 2023 10:26 TMNT wrote:
The problem here is that he has to give explanation as to why Protoss (all Protoss players!!!) has skill issue.

Saying "skill issue" itself is not an explanation. It's already the conclusion.

It's just like me saying "Tesagi". I need to provide something to back it up. Otherwise it's worthless.

On May 23 2023 10:50 KwarK wrote:

Yeah, the assertion is that the more talented players all happened to pick Terran (extremely unlikely over a large sample size) and that they could have just as easily used that same talent to dominate with Protoss. And yet somehow none of them did.

If it's true then go do it.

On May 23 2023 13:21 Rainalcar wrote:
I am 100% certain that Flash would never be able to be as successful with P.

On May 23 2023 17:43 Magic Powers wrote:


I am 100% certain that he would. And I'd be laying you 3:1 odds on that.

On May 23 2023 20:01 Peeano wrote:
That's cute. Snow woud have lost just as hard if he had played Terran last ASL. He didn't win ASL yet because he failed to, not because he doesn't play Terran.

On May 23 2023 22:25 Magic Powers wrote:
When a player off-races for a bit and fails, that doesn't mean anything.

On May 23 2023 22:37 Timebon3s wrote:
I agree with the guy above saying its the progamers fault for not picking the best race, though.

On May 23 2023 17:43 Magic Powers wrote:


I am 100% certain that he would. And I'd be laying you 3:1 odds on that.

On May 23 2023 23:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Didnt Bisu say he has a progamer career cuz he picked protoss ? He tried terran and zerg and was trash.
Respectfully for Protoss players most of them picked the race cuz it was easy to get into. Nal ra . Reach Bisu Jangbi Rain Mini Stork. All those guys are very acomplished protoss. Sadly there is a peak for each human and they can acomplish it earlier or later.These days the most impressive protoss to me is Mini. He actually did very well in ASL reaching 4 ASL finals and winning one.

As sad at it is for Snow. He only knows how to play well at home. And even at home is rare he win important games when it comes to aces. He tends to do well on bo9 formats where i guess there is less pressure on him. On stage he tends to flop very often. Even vs Flash in that infamous season with the most anti terran maps he barely won that.

Im not sure how progamers are training anymore tbh. They spend 6 hours doing proleagues and playing 2 games. No one is getting better anymore. Maybe a real proleague with stablish teams like The Moo Proleague or the AFreeca team league can skill up these guys again.

On May 24 2023 02:10 weiliem wrote:
There was never a protoss Bonjwa simply because only 1 protoss player ever does well against Z.
Other than that they're all eliminated by Z half way to finals.....

On May 24 2023 03:47 Malongo wrote:
The fact that some people still use the "Terran players skill is higher" is laughable.

On May 24 2023 04:00 Timebon3s wrote:

Probably because some people actually believe what Artosis says.

On May 24 2023 03:27 G5 wrote:


Bro... with respect, I know you watch the ASL games because you cast them. How is Mini the most impressive Protoss you've seen as of late? Are we all gonna pretend Mini wasn't taking massive risks or straight up cutting a million probes and all-inning in almost every game he played (especially his games vs Z) on his ASL runs? The only Protoss to win an ASL in years was one of the best Protoss' in the world, coin flipping and praying. Come on now.

FlaSh in this video is telling himself what every other Terran player tells themselves, "Protoss doesn't win because of skill, not because of the race". Ludicrous. The advantage isn't huge but T and Z definitely are slightly superior to Protoss at the pro level simply due to how the races were designed. We have 25 years of evidence and most of the player base is Protoss yet they achieve the least. Come on now. Sometimes I don't even know what people think they're watching when they watch professional Starcraft.

On May 24 2023 05:19 ZeroByte13 wrote:
It could be like in SC2, I guess.
Almost half of GM league are protosses, group stages of most tournaments often have more P than T+Z combined.
Mind you, in Korea and EU most of them drop out fast and often in Ro8 there's only 1-2 left at most.

And protoss players won a lot of big tournament with all/most of the best players participating.
But they somehow almost never win the hardest/biggest tourney like World Championship or GSL.
I.e. they often win (or at least used to win) tourneys with 5-10k prize for 1st, but not tourneys with 20k+ prizes.

Out of 15+ GSLs since 2017 protoss won exactly 1, and none of the World Finals / IEMs since 2015.

But how do you buff them so they're not completely OP at the level that's a tiny bit lower than literally top-5 players in the world?

Could this be the case in BW too?

On May 23 2023 22:57 JClave wrote:

Snow said he picked Protoss because it suits his play style and personality.

Not everyone wants to play Terran even if it means higher win rate.
I find Terran playstyle quite boring in comparison.
I feel like I could figure out everything if I just thought hard about it.

But with Protoss, there are many things which are interesting problems to solve.

For example, engaging Terran army as Protoss is interesting because I have to maneuver my army into them to trade efficiently which involve some calculated risks.
I can't just camp somewhere and snipe enemies taking no risks on my side.

On May 23 2023 17:24 TMNT wrote:
I would add that Flash's logic was wrong when he used Savior as an example to prove that Terran is not stronger.

Of course it's skill that helped Savior beat all those Terrans, but it could also mean that Terran is stronger but Savior was able to overcome that balance issue with his skill.

Same thing can be said for Bisu when he overcame the odds in the PvZ matchup despite Zerg being "stronger" in this matchup.

This is the same guy who downplayed Jangbi's OSL titles after losing to him.

And the whole Bonjwas argument is stupid anyway. The thing has a sample of 5 and dated back like 20 years ago. Bonjwa doesn't even mean the best player of all time. It's just they are the best during their time. 3 or 4 out of the 5 Bonjwas would get totally destroyed in modern BW.

On May 24 2023 07:45 vOdToasT wrote:
There hasn't been a Protoss bonjwa because for much of the game's history (during which most bonjwas emerged), Protoss was significantly underpowered against Zerg on most, if not all, of the maps played at the time. The first bonjwas were always likely to be Terran because the maps were Terran favoured. The game itself was also less explored; people didn't even muta micro, and Protoss didn't forge expand, and on many maps it wasn't even possible.

The times of Boxer, Nada, Iloveoov, and even some of sAviOr's time to a lesser extent, had maps that were very bad for Protoss. Bisu's revolution fixed PvZ, but it required the right maps.

For a long time, on most if not all maps that people played on, Terran slightly beat Zerg, Zerg slightly beat Protoss, but Protoss only slightly beat Terran for the early years. Soon, Terran became even to Protoss, but the other matchups remained slightly imbalanced, and ZvP was the worst.

It was only after Bisu that Protoss stopped being underpowered, and for a while, Protoss even became the strongest race, during a time known as the age of the six dragons. This wasn't just handed down for free through maps, but was earned through innovation, like the one time that the pro ZvT winrate went significantly above 50%, which was after the first emergence of crazy zerg.

After Bisu slew sAviOr, ended his reign, and fixed PvZ with his revolution, StarCraft started to resemble the game that we have today. Protoss entered its true form. The earliest bonjwas, although legendary gigachads whose deeds still inspire awe, are not relevant as data points in modern StarCraft. The game they played was too different.

Only post Bisu StarCraft is relevant to us. Pre Bisu StarCraft may illustrate more general principles, so it's like reading Sun Tzu, but post Bisu StarCraft is something we can learn specifics from; it's more like reading Clausewitz, or even some modern analysis on the Vietnam war.
Post Bisu StarCraft only gave us one bonjwa, Flash, and there was a long period of time during which Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong would all have become bonjwas if not for the existence of the other two + Stork.
Those four players were the best for a very long time, and the first three took turns at being #1, with Stork beating them sometimes, but never really being at the very top of the top.

Eventually, later, Flash got ahead and became the last bonjwa.
For post Bisu StarCraft, the only StarCraft that resembles the modern game both in maps and knowledge (muta micro, P fast expanding vs Z, etc), the only StarCraft that's relevant to discussions of modern racial balance, we've only had one bonjwa.

Although racial balance is tied to maps, and every matchup has been favoured to either side depending on maps, we can still say that on most maps of the type that people like to play on, Terran is the strongest. You can thus credibly make the claim that Terran is the strongest race. However, the number of bonjwas is not a good argument.
What is a good argument is racial map statistics.

On May 24 2023 07:45 vOdToasT wrote:
Only post Bisu StarCraft is relevant to us. Pre Bisu StarCraft may illustrate more general principles, so it's like reading Sun Tzu, but post Bisu StarCraft is something we can learn specifics from; it's more like reading Clausewitz, or even some modern analysis on the Vietnam war.
Post Bisu StarCraft only gave us one bonjwa, Flash, and there was a long period of time during which Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong would all have become bonjwas if not for the existence of the other two + Stork.
Those four players were the best for a very long time, and the first three took turns at being #1, with Stork beating them sometimes, but never really being at the very top of the top.

Eventually, later, Flash got ahead and became the last bonjwa.
For post Bisu StarCraft, the only StarCraft that resembles the modern game both in maps and knowledge (muta micro, P fast expanding vs Z, etc), the only StarCraft that's relevant to discussions of modern racial balance, we've only had one bonjwa.

Although racial balance is tied to maps, and every matchup has been favoured to either side depending on maps, we can still say that on most maps of the type that people like to play on, Terran is the strongest. You can thus credibly make the claim that Terran is the strongest race. However, the number of bonjwas is not a good argument.
What is a good argument is racial map statistics.

On May 24 2023 05:02 Timebon3s wrote:
It actually is sad. He could use his influence for something positive.
Instead he is just trash talking everyone and being bm all the time on stream.

But I guess it makes him popular. Firebathero was a bit of an asshole too, but at the end of the day, it was entertaining…and isn’t that what video games are supposed to be? :D

On May 24 2023 20:13 TMNT wrote:
PvZ is such a matchup that the P has to be better than the Z to win. I guess that statement sounds a bit dull as of course you always need to be better than your opponent to win, but what it truly means is that if both players in that matchup just play out the game in a normal way, the P will automatically fall behind because of the race design.

Just watch Shuttle vs Soma right now in KCM. Such a prime example. Obviously Shuttle is the worse player anyway, but he didn't make any mistake in the opening of that game, yet by the mid game he already had a mountain to climb because he didn't do anything special either to force his way into the game early on. And that is why Bisu and Mini are the best in this matchup because often times in the early game their superior multitasking allows them to already pull ahead by just zealot pressure.

From Soma side, he didn't even have to do anything special. He opens with 973. Shuttle scouts it on time to cannon up. Soma snipes the Gate and the Forge, denying +1, while droning up and transitioning into macro. Shuttle builds 5 Cannons, not too many but it does delay his Gate. Since Zerg doesn't commit, the 5 Cannons become useless and Shuttle even has to destroy one to make way for his army later. That's 1000 minerals down to toilet just to survice while Zerg literally loses nothing. By that time Zerg is already ahead, then Soma does a Muta flip to surprise Shuttle and pull ahead even more. The rest of the game is just formality.

In an ideal, balanced game, if both players don't make mistakes, they both should have a 50/50 chance to win. I guess in BW it's only true in PvT. In ZvT Zerg has to be better to win as well. i.e. if your Mutas don't do shit then their bio army (plus tanks sometimes) will just roll you over.

And that's why from a game theory pov. T>Z>P=T, which is why Terran is the strongest race.

On May 24 2023 07:45 vOdToasT wrote:
There hasn't been a Protoss bonjwa because for much of the game's history (during which most bonjwas emerged), Protoss was significantly underpowered against Zerg on most, if not all, of the maps played at the time. The first bonjwas were always likely to be Terran because the maps were Terran favoured. The game itself was also less explored; people didn't even muta micro, and Protoss didn't forge expand, and on many maps it wasn't even possible.

The times of Boxer, Nada, Iloveoov, and even some of sAviOr's time to a lesser extent, had maps that were very bad for Protoss. Bisu's revolution fixed PvZ, but it required the right maps.

For a long time, on most if not all maps that people played on, Terran slightly beat Zerg, Zerg slightly beat Protoss, but Protoss only slightly beat Terran for the early years. Soon, Terran became even to Protoss, but the other matchups remained slightly imbalanced, and ZvP was the worst.

It was only after Bisu that Protoss stopped being underpowered, and for a while, Protoss even became the strongest race, during a time known as the age of the six dragons. This wasn't just handed down for free through maps, but was earned through innovation, like the one time that the pro ZvT winrate went significantly above 50%, which was after the first emergence of crazy zerg.

After Bisu slew sAviOr, ended his reign, and fixed PvZ with his revolution, StarCraft started to resemble the game that we have today. Protoss entered its true form. The earliest bonjwas, although legendary gigachads whose deeds still inspire awe, are not relevant as data points in modern StarCraft. The game they played was too different.

Only post Bisu StarCraft is relevant to us. Pre Bisu StarCraft may illustrate more general principles, so it's like reading Sun Tzu, but post Bisu StarCraft is something we can learn specifics from; it's more like reading Clausewitz, or even some modern analysis on the Vietnam war.
Post Bisu StarCraft only gave us one bonjwa, Flash, and there was a long period of time during which Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong would all have become bonjwas if not for the existence of the other two + Stork.
Those four players were the best for a very long time, and the first three took turns at being #1, with Stork beating them sometimes, but never really being at the very top of the top.

Eventually, later, Flash got ahead and became the last bonjwa.
For post Bisu StarCraft, the only StarCraft that resembles the modern game both in maps and knowledge (muta micro, P fast expanding vs Z, etc), the only StarCraft that's relevant to discussions of modern racial balance, we've only had one bonjwa.

Although racial balance is tied to maps, and every matchup has been favoured to either side depending on maps, we can still say that on most maps of the type that people like to play on, Terran is the strongest. You can thus credibly make the claim that Terran is the strongest race. However, the number of bonjwas is not a good argument.
What is a good argument is racial map statistics.

On May 24 2023 20:09 Heartland wrote:
That is just not true.

On May 24 2023 20:13 TMNT wrote:
PvZ is such a matchup that the P has to be better than the Z to win. I guess that statement sounds a bit dull as of course you always need to be better than your opponent to win, but what it truly means is that if both players in that matchup just play out the game in a normal way, the P will automatically fall behind because of the race design.

Just watch Shuttle vs Soma right now in KCM. Such a prime example. Obviously Shuttle is the worse player anyway, but he didn't make any mistake in the opening of that game, yet by the mid game he already had a mountain to climb because he didn't do anything special either to force his way into the game early on. And that is why Bisu and Mini are the best in this matchup because often times in the early game their superior multitasking allows them to already pull ahead by just zealot pressure.

From Soma side, he didn't even have to do anything special. He opens with 973. Shuttle scouts it on time to cannon up. Soma snipes the Gate and the Forge, denying +1, while droning up and transitioning into macro. Shuttle builds 5 Cannons, not too many but it does delay his Gate. Since Zerg doesn't commit, the 5 Cannons become useless and Shuttle even has to destroy one to make way for his army later. That's 1000 minerals down to toilet just to survice while Zerg literally loses nothing. By that time Zerg is already ahead, then Soma does a Muta flip to surprise Shuttle and pull ahead even more. The rest of the game is just formality.

In an ideal, balanced game, if both players don't make mistakes, they both should have a 50/50 chance to win. I guess in BW it's only true in PvT. In ZvT Zerg has to be better to win as well. i.e. if your Mutas don't do shit then their bio army (plus tanks sometimes) will just roll you over.

And that's why from a game theory pov. T>Z>P=T, which is why Terran is the strongest race.

On May 24 2023 20:50 Magic Powers wrote:
Snow is the player to look to if you want to see ways to solve early zerg pressure. It's certainly not Mini. Bisu and Snow are the two top dogs in PvZ.

On May 25 2023 02:58 Shinokuki wrote:


Shuttle is literally one of the worst progamer atm lol. Of course he gets blasted by the #1 zerg. Match ups are more determined by maps.

It's important to get your eco going but brilliant protoss players like mini and snow are very good at micro'ing their zealots and disrupting that crucial drone timing. Frankly, it's harder for the zerg player to deal with the initial 1 probe + 1 zealot push since there are so many opportunities for protoss players to capitalize on as maps are not so kind to zergs.

On May 25 2023 03:06 TMNT wrote:

I mentioned that game because I was watching that at the moment of writing. But I have seen countless of PvZ games with a scenario like that be it Best Snow or Mini playing.


And this part is exactly what I mean when I said the P has to be better. To not fall into the position that Shuttle was in that game, the P has to win the Zealots vs Lings micro battle in the early game. Get good trades, force Lings out, disrupt Zerg's mining, get a drone here and there (best scenario). Protoss has to force the situation. Zerg doesn't have to. If nothing happens, Zerg naturally just pulls away.

I guess what's left for us to debate is what is harder, Zealot or Ling micro?

On May 25 2023 03:42 Magic Powers wrote:


The numbers prove me right. Snow is crushing it every month in PvZ. Mini isn't.

On May 25 2023 05:13 Magic Powers wrote:


Mini is great, don't get me wrong. By no means am I talking shit about him. But compared to Bisu and Snow he's just not on the same level.
The early game is essential for a good winrate, so I can't see Snow being worse than Mini there. Perhaps he's second to Bisu. I've watched quite a lot of his PvZ games and the things he does are just amazing. Putting tons of pressure on zerg with just a few zealots, and also defending his base near flawlessly each time. Zerg players have a much harder time either busting his base early or conceiling their tech, which forces them to opt for a macro build more often than against weaker protoss players.

On May 25 2023 08:03 XenOsky wrote:
there is no toss bonjwa because protoss needs to attack in order to create an advantage, meanwhile zergs and terran can just sit there and take things slowly.

after mid game, protoss losses a ton of value armywise.

On May 25 2023 15:59 vOdToasT wrote:


Terran must always attack vs Zerg, must often attack vs Protoss, and carriers exist.

On May 25 2023 20:44 TMNT wrote:

But that's where the disparity lies. T and P both have to attack Z to prevent their outrageous late game power. But T only have to attack P 33% of the time (Carrier build). And even in that case, P don't really sit and defend in their base like what T usually do against P. It's more like P trying to stall T to survive before the Carriers are out in sufficient number, much like Z trying to stall T to get Defilers out.

On top of that, the disparity in army power is probably most significant in TvP. Late game TvZ and PvZ there are differences in army power, but not to the degree that one army totally decimates the other like TvP. Once again, you can see why we have T>Z and Z>P, but P are not really > T (due to that late game army power disparity) to complete the symmetry.

As G5 said, the imbalance is only slightly, but enough to create a trend over significant amount of time.

On May 25 2023 20:44 TMNT wrote:

But that's where the disparity lies. T and P both have to attack Z to prevent their outrageous late game power. But T only have to attack P 33% of the time (Carrier build). And even in that case, P don't really sit and defend in their base like what T usually do against P. It's more like P trying to stall T to survive before the Carriers are out in sufficient number, much like Z trying to stall T to get Defilers out.

On top of that, the disparity in army power is probably most significant in TvP. Late game TvZ and PvZ there are differences in army power, but not to the degree that one army totally decimates the other like TvP. Once again, you can see why we have T>Z and Z>P, but P are not really > T (due to that late game army power disparity) to complete the symmetry.

As G5 said, the imbalance is only slightly, but enough to create a trend over significant amount of time.

On May 25 2023 22:14 MeSaber wrote:


Not sure what you mean here. If you let P expand all map as T you will have a severe disadvantage. P can rebuild its base anywhere on the map and still be capable.

In TvP you need to block expansions just as much as a PvZ or TvZ.

In that sense TvP is 100% attack or you lose the game. You cant camp forever which you seem to imply unless there are carriers.

On May 25 2023 22:56 vOdToasT wrote:


Terran must attack in many more situations than against carriers, but yeah, you can play a more defensive style if you want to. It's not the most common style though, and it's better on some maps than on others. On most maps, you can't just immediately go to defensive split map play without doing some big push first.

Having to attack or not having to attack doesn't matter for balance though. Terran had to attack Zerg since ancient times, and the matchup was still Terran favoured. If you have to attack but your attack is overpowered, then your race is advantaged.

On May 26 2023 00:04 vOdToasT wrote:
The reasons why X race is favoured is ultimately just speculation as no explanation can be proven or disproven, and I can argue with you over why I think things are how they are. I think that Protoss and Terran can both play offensively or defensively, but that certain situations force the other side to attack. I think that in this regard, they are quite even. T can't play passive split map on a map with too many expansions, and a Protoss, even one who's going carriers, has to make a move against a split mapping Terran on some cramped two player map.

What we can't argue over is the winrate. PvT is a balanced matchup based on winrates, if we play on the right maps. There are many maps that are very close to 50% in PvT, such as Butter, Sylphid, Retro, and Eclipse.

In the previous ASL map pool, PvT wasn't a problem. The most T favoured TvP map was Vermeer, but Protoss had 76 which was even more P favoured in PvT.

On May 26 2023 00:04 vOdToasT wrote:
I don't agree that Protoss has the weakest 200/200 either. They can, depending on the game state, but they can also have the strongest. It is feasible and practical to max out on lots of reavers, archons, and HT, which is not inferior to the Zerg equivalent at all.
Carriers + arbiters + HT make an ultimate army in PvT as well, if you can make it to it, and even without carriers, if you have enough arbiters, it is possible to actually beat a maxed Terran army if you win the micro battle, especially if you attack him when he's moving so that he doesn't have a perfect entrenched position. You can provoke movement from him by expanding.

On May 26 2023 00:29 TMNT wrote:

But this is pure theoretical stuff, as if you type "show me the money" and build all those units at will.

In reality, P almost never get to that kind of 200/200 army (200/200 Reaver Archon HT or 200/200 Carrier Arbiter HT). And if they ever do, it probably means they are so far ahead that they can kill the enemy long before they get to that composition. It's like Snow getting to 200/200 Scouts to massacre Artosis. He can't never build 200/200 Scouts against Light can he?

The weakest 200/200 I mentioned obviously mean a probable 200/200 in the current meta. For example, Gateway tier 1 units + Shuttle HT + maybe an Arbiter.

On May 26 2023 00:30 vOdToasT wrote:


I can show you a VOD of Free getting a reaver archon army against Jaedong, and I did it myself often. It was my way to capitalise on being ahead due to a better midgame. I did a lategame reaver transition.

On May 23 2023 17:24 TMNT wrote:
Bonjwa doesn't even mean the best player of all time.

On May 27 2023 08:12 ZFcrush wrote:
I wonder if you could boost Protoss's results by making maps such that the 3rd base is ever so slightly further away than they are in your standard tournament map. My thinking is that it would make PvT slightly more Protoss favored without affecting ZvP very much. It would make Protoss defending their 3rd a little harder PvZ, but perhaps a tiny increase in 3rd distance might not affect PvZ a whole lot since by the time Protoss gets their 3rd they usually have a pretty big army and a lot of PvZ has Protoss fighting for a long time on 2 base anyway.

Maybe it wouldn't work, I don't know, I just thought of it...I just thought a tiny increase in 3rd distance would make a much more significant impact on Terran getting their 3rd than it would affect anything in ZvP. In reading this thread I see a lot of people saying that the problem with the match up hierarchy is that PvT is close to equal which messes up the balance since it's supposed to be Protoss's strong match up.

On May 27 2023 14:52 Piste wrote:
How bout having match up specific maps? Would propably result in a lot of complaining from the losing race even when the results were determined by skill rather than map imba.

On May 27 2023 17:46 Timebon3s wrote:
The natural evolution of SC:BW is for everyone to realise that Random is the best race.
Random will always have a leg up when playing vs a spesific race.
Then everyone would pick Random to not be at a disadvantage.
Then all games would be RvR and nobody could complain about anything.

On May 29 2023 01:17 bovienchien wrote:
We can use 2 race (main race and off race) for every players.

Game 1: Main race vs main race
Next games: winner plays main race, loser plays off race. Or it's opposite.

This thing reduces important of race.

We have so many ways to players play more than 1 race. They will practice more and we have more amazing/fun matchup/game.

Example: Players have to choose their race (main race is only maximum 2 times) for each round before tournament starts.

I play Terran, I will choose Ro24 (T), 16 (P), 8(P), 4(P), Final (T)

On May 25 2023 04:19 TMNT wrote:
The numbers (2023):



Snow has improved his PvZ a lot since... I don't know exactly, but PvZ used to be his weakness for sure.
In ASL14 the Terrans tried to kill him (again) by putting him in the same group with Soma Qiueen Soulkey (disgusting lol) but he ended up top of the group.

Mini is so inconsistent it almost feels like anything anyone says about him would be true if you pick the right period to examine. He can lose to Shuttle in Set 1 then does an all kill in Set 2 of Proleague.

On June 15 2023 16:55 claire_thu wrote:
crypto scammer, who cares

On June 15 2023 07:22 A.Alm wrote:


nice table! what data are you using?

On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote:
But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance.

On June 15 2023 18:06 TMNT wrote:

It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data.

What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races?

Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army.

Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay.

I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T.

On May 29 2023 04:25 darktreb wrote:
Is the lack of Protoss player checking all those boxes due to Protoss being worse?

Given that different Protoss players have been able to achieve the bonjwa-esque PvX level for different matchups, it seems like the issue is the challenge of combining all these skills at the same time.

That said, it's possible that it's simply "harder" for Protoss to reach this level simultaneously for its matchups, than other races.

The discussion should at least involve this question.

On June 16 2023 02:40 NoobSkills wrote:


Zergs don't throw their entire army into cannon+reaver+storm though. Long ago when protoss would defend far expansions by putting up that style of defense even then zergs didn't throw into it. They pressured it with dark swarm and some lings over and over to catch the reaver off guard or templar out of energy. The situation where you see zergs attacking into a well fortified position nowadays is getting rid of the forge OR an attempt to bust a protoss who has lacking defense not overwhelming, becuse the protoss made too few cannons or not enough units.

A terran attempted bust doesn't normally happen in the mid game. There was the pressure after a nexus first build that fell off becuse protosses adapted to defend it better. A terran may attempt a bust on a zerg's position who didn't make enough sunkens or lurkers or doesn't have defilers or a nydus yet, but they're not straight running 200/200 into 170/200 worth of lurkers darkswarm defiler sunken.

I do get your point on if protoss is behind what do you want to do, and sure you don't want to be sitting 200/200 while terran lays back and cruises to 200/200. If however you take the other 2 mains or start making carriers or even fake making carriers they're forced to move out. When terran is on the move storm/arbriters work better period. Beyond even that your 1a2a3a4a works a whole lot better when their position is away from their preset mines, turrets, depot walls etc. Your recalls are further away from their core, your storms do better because their units are clumped together.

And while I don't know the most effective way to play PvZ in the least bit there are pros that have their own version of the razorwire strats to break a zerg. Corsairs that supply block zerg from remaking. Brute force zealot attacks that attempt to focus on one area and busting up the drones, force unit production, while attacking hatches. Some also tax the multitasking ability of their opponent by running stuff everywhere, hoping that in just one area they're sucessful. Late game though they attempt to keep the same things up but it never seems to work very well. They lose expansions to a few units consistently, but never drop the reaver+templar+cannon down like games long ago to defend them. They never arbriter past the defenses. They get stalled repeatedly from losing their one observer which does happen, but it prevents them from being successful in that attack because by the time you get another one there, more static defense is made, more scourge for obs, more lurkers and defilers as well.

Throughout all time while not using the full extent of their ability as a race there have still always been sucessful PvT and PvZ players, but never on the same player. Then you're relying on tournament bracket AND that a PvP sniper doesn't stop you from progressing at the same time.

On June 16 2023 11:35 NoobSkills wrote:


Solid contribution. Found the protoss player

On June 16 2023 02:40 NoobSkills wrote:


Zergs don't throw their entire army into cannon+reaver+storm though. Long ago when protoss would defend far expansions by putting up that style of defense even then zergs didn't throw into it. They pressured it with dark swarm and some lings over and over to catch the reaver off guard or templar out of energy. The situation where you see zergs attacking into a well fortified position nowadays is getting rid of the forge OR an attempt to bust a protoss who has lacking defense not overwhelming, becuse the protoss made too few cannons or not enough units.

A terran attempted bust doesn't normally happen in the mid game. There was the pressure after a nexus first build that fell off becuse protosses adapted to defend it better. A terran may attempt a bust on a zerg's position who didn't make enough sunkens or lurkers or doesn't have defilers or a nydus yet, but they're not straight running 200/200 into 170/200 worth of lurkers darkswarm defiler sunken.

I do get your point on if protoss is behind what do you want to do, and sure you don't want to be sitting 200/200 while terran lays back and cruises to 200/200. If however you take the other 2 mains or start making carriers or even fake making carriers they're forced to move out. When terran is on the move storm/arbriters work better period. Beyond even that your 1a2a3a4a works a whole lot better when their position is away from their preset mines, turrets, depot walls etc. Your recalls are further away from their core, your storms do better because their units are clumped together.

And while I don't know the most effective way to play PvZ in the least bit there are pros that have their own version of the razorwire strats to break a zerg. Corsairs that supply block zerg from remaking. Brute force zealot attacks that attempt to focus on one area and busting up the drones, force unit production, while attacking hatches. Some also tax the multitasking ability of their opponent by running stuff everywhere, hoping that in just one area they're sucessful. Late game though they attempt to keep the same things up but it never seems to work very well. They lose expansions to a few units consistently, but never drop the reaver+templar+cannon down like games long ago to defend them. They never arbriter past the defenses. They get stalled repeatedly from losing their one observer which does happen, but it prevents them from being successful in that attack because by the time you get another one there, more static defense is made, more scourge for obs, more lurkers and defilers as well.

Throughout all time while not using the full extent of their ability as a race there have still always been sucessful PvT and PvZ players, but never on the same player. Then you're relying on tournament bracket AND that a PvP sniper doesn't stop you from progressing at the same time.

On June 17 2023 04:53 TMNT wrote:

You haven't seen last ASL Quarterfinals Best vs Action? Action on 200/200 with 5k in the bank kept attacking Best who was on 120/200, until Zerg run out of money and left. Funnily, earlier in that game Best did attack into a sea of sunkens and lurkers, and even earlier than that, it was Action who dived on a bunch of cannons for almost nothing. Earlier in that series, Action who was on the verge of winning somehow threw the game by repeating the equivalent of of a Protoss recall on mines.

But they are just isolated incidents. You can't accuse a whole race of something based on your tunnel vision.

There were a proleague recently where Light played Best and Mini in 2 consecutive games of 45 min each. In both games, both the Protoss players took all 3 corners of the map when Light was only on 4 bases, one using storms and Arbiters while the other transitioning into Carriers. They both lost to Light though. But the winning or losing is not important here. The point is it's not like those players don't know how to play the game is it? If me and you and the average C rank players know it, the pros know it.

It's so easy for the viewers, who always watch games with full vision and supply count, to put the blame on the players. So let's say the problem is not balance, but the players then. Then do you think if all Terran or Zerg players played Protoss instead, all those mistakes, stupid moves, wrongful strategy would just magically disappear? Like, in an alternate timeline where Light, Royal, Rush, Mind, JYJ,..... are Protoss players, we would never see 1a2a3a and suicide recall and whatnot? Nah ah. Some would be better and some would be worse players, but we would see the same kind of games we're seeing now, because it's just how the races are designed.

Case in point: during this off-season, Best played a lot of offrace TvP versus Rush, Royal, Light, JYJ, Sharp,.... and he held a record of ~80% win. Yep. Best - the god of gatewayman, the master of 1a2a3a. He won his TvPs by expanding and defending resiliently, not by 1a2a3a his tanks into Protoss. Meanwhile the Terran players offracing Protoss kept throwing zealot shuttle and templars into a sea of mines and tanks until they couldn't. Go watch Best's stream in May and find out.

On June 17 2023 06:55 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
iirc that particular game ur referring to between best and action was on nemesis..

you cant take that game as a example in general.. nemesis is a very non standard map lol

On June 17 2023 06:55 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
iirc that particular game ur referring to between best and action was on nemesis..

you cant take that game as a example in general.. nemesis is a very non standard map lol

On June 17 2023 07:53 NoobSkills wrote:
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?

But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb.

So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one.

On June 17 2023 13:51 WGT-Baal wrote:


Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title

On June 17 2023 13:51 WGT-Baal wrote:
Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title

On June 17 2023 12:58 TMNT wrote:

Here it is: https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/605325-megathread-daily-proleagues?page=19#369
(game 4 and 6 of Set 1).
I don't mean to argue over winning or losing because Light obviously did something right and Mini and Best obviously did something wrong to get that outcome. What I mean is their overall approach was right. The wrong is probably execution.


You remember it wrong. Best did use Arbiters and recall in the Sylphid game. The first one was kind of meh and the second one was useless and lost him the game. He didn't even recall on mines but tbf, Arbiter is kind of a hit or miss tool itself in the modern meta and that's why we don't see it as often these days. Snow - without a doubt the best PvT player in history - rarely uses Arbiter. So does Mini. The ones who use Arbiter the most are old school players like Bisu and Best.


I did address this point in the previous page (the post with the win rate table): in fact, Terran and Zerg players are not exactly Archon either. Most Terrans these days are better at TvZ than TvP and most Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. I assume if you look at the win rates during KEspa you'd get the same story. What kills Protoss is (1) PvP is more coin-flippy than TvT and ZvZ and (2) PvT is not as P-favored as T in TvZ or Z in ZvP.

On June 17 2023 13:51 WGT-Baal wrote:


Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title

On June 18 2023 10:37 WGT-Baal wrote:
Jangbi went to defeat Baby (aka Ty), Flash (after his starleague wins) and Fantasy in the final in the same run. Flash was already in god mode then. Meanwhile snow hasnt had amazing showing vs T in ASL.

Is he doing amazing with his shuttle in daily proleagues? Absolutely. Best PvT-er currently? Also yes, but best in history, as eon said as well, that s a big stretch.

Now we re talking about a bygone era so if you're somewhat new, i get why you d make that statement.
.

On June 18 2023 18:11 Nirli wrote:
My obligatory "you can't be considered the greatest at something if you haven't won a major tournament in any era" post.

On June 18 2023 18:30 TMNT wrote:

No. Your obligatory "I can't stop myself from spreading toxicity every time I hear Snow being mentioned on this board".

Seriously, if you don't have something to say in the conversation, stay way from it. Half of your posts here are one-liners mainly for mocking people.

Can the mods do something with this guy pls?

On June 18 2023 19:18 Nirli wrote:


I consider my statement objective.

In reality, I have noticed your Snow fanboyism has increased tenfold since I've started posting, so it's a net loss for me, all things considered.

As a simple user here, of course the mods are entitled to serve any punishment they see fit.

On June 18 2023 19:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I mean you cant deny Snow PvT is really good. someone said on my stream Royal is like 2-20 lately vs him ( im not sure how real is that ) and he is doing well vs other terrans too. How do you even get to that point ? Win % ? Micro perfomance / Macro . Strategy evolution ? Multitasking ?

If someone ask me who i consider to be the guy that peaked the most in pvt is Jangbi for sure.

On June 18 2023 20:24 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But that one has the problem of less competition this days. But the reality is that is not even worth comparing. Progamers now play from the comfort of home. Back then you needed to go to the studio and play in a different setup with public looking at you. U got the pressure of being benched or kicked from the team if u perform badly. It was a toyal different movie.

On June 18 2023 22:23 Jae Zedong wrote:
Asking whether a current pro would do better in the Kespa era if they were magically transported back is a dumb comparison to make, because they could just surprise everyone with 10+ years of meta advances. Flash himself said he would have a 99% winrate under those circumstances.

The more relevant comparison imo is what would happen if you gave the Kespa guys a month or two to catch up with the current metagame. Then it’s not at all clear who would dominate, because the Kespa guys have an edge in both mechanics and practice regimens.

On June 18 2023 23:10 TMNT wrote:

But that doesn't solve the question of who is better because even if the Kespa guys travelled to the future and dominated, it'd be their hypothetical peak, not the real one. We can only compare what we have, which is their power relatively to their peers at the time of their peak.

It's kind of like removing Federer/Nadal/Djokovic from their GOAT status because they eat better and have nicer racquets now compared to Borg/Laver.

In this particular case, the only scenario where I'd say Jangbi peak is better than Snow peak is if somehow all the current Korean pros down their levels to somewhere around BSL. Then surely Snow beating Mihu and Gypsy 80% of the time is not as impressive.

On June 19 2023 00:39 Magic Powers wrote:


What's the difference in difficulty presenting itself from more skilled players as opposed to a more evolved meta? If your argument is that ten years ago players had to overcome more skilled players in a less evolved meta, and today players have to overcome less skilled players in a more evolved meta, then the totality of skill would be more or less equal.

Furthermore, if players from ten years ago "only need information", then players today "only need more practice". I doubt we can quantify which one is more challenging: practicing a new meta or practicing better mechanics. Both requires extensive training. For example an ace pilot would have to retrain his reflexes on an aircraft that has a different set of abilities, and this could take years because he has to rewire his brain. This is why Flash and many other top BW pros weren't dominant in SC2, while young blood was dominating instead.

If your argument is that ten years ago players had to overcome more skilled players in a less evolved meta, and today players have to overcome less skilled players in a more evolved meta, then the totality of skill would be more or less equal.

A live squirrel supposed to be clinging on one side of a tree-trunk; while over against the tree's opposite side a human being was imagined to stand. This human witness tries to get sight of the squirrel by moving rapidly round the tree, but no matter how fast he goes, the squirrel moves as fast in the opposite direction, and always keeps the tree between himself and the man, so that never a glimpse of him is caught. The resultant metaphysical problem now is this: Does the man go round the squirrel or not?