EPTFlaSh Explains Why There is No Protoss Bonjwas - Page 8
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Nirli
Bulgaria387 Posts
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TMNT
3366 Posts
On June 18 2023 18:11 Nirli wrote: My obligatory "you can't be considered the greatest at something if you haven't won a major tournament in any era" post. No. Your obligatory "I can't stop myself from spreading toxicity every time I hear Snow being mentioned on this board". Seriously, if you don't have something to say in the conversation, stay way from it. Half of your posts here are one-liners mainly for mocking people. Can the mods do something with this guy pls? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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oxKnu
1267 Posts
It's funny how people refuse this very fact since it has been proven again and again over many eras, many changes to the meta-game etc However, everyone gladly accepts that: "Broodwar is balanced through MAPS bro, stfu". The irony. | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria387 Posts
On June 18 2023 18:30 TMNT wrote: No. Your obligatory "I can't stop myself from spreading toxicity every time I hear Snow being mentioned on this board". Seriously, if you don't have something to say in the conversation, stay way from it. Half of your posts here are one-liners mainly for mocking people. Can the mods do something with this guy pls? I consider my statement objective. In reality, I have noticed your Snow fanboyism has increased tenfold since I've started posting, so it's a net loss for me, all things considered. As a simple user here, of course the mods are entitled to serve any punishment they see fit. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On June 18 2023 19:18 Nirli wrote: I consider my statement objective. In reality, I have noticed your Snow fanboyism has increased tenfold since I've started posting, so it's a net loss for me, all things considered. As a simple user here, of course the mods are entitled to serve any punishment they see fit. Objective? What part about denying a dominating 89% PvT winrate is objective? Snow has consistently destroyed the top terran players with relative ease throughout 2023, with his winrate rarely dipping below 70%. You're not arguing objectively, you're being just as subjective as you claim others to be. | ||
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TMNT
3366 Posts
On June 18 2023 19:18 Nirli wrote: I consider my statement objective. In reality, I have noticed your Snow fanboyism has increased tenfold since I've started posting, so it's a net loss for me, all things considered. As a simple user here, of course the mods are entitled to serve any punishment they see fit. No, I'm not a fan of Snow in particular. It's just the time you started posting here coincides with the time Snow started to considerably rise his game, along with Light - the two best players in 2023 (by facts). I've complimented Light a lot of times in this forum too, but you obviously have no problems with him. The problem is every time someone mentions Snow you have to stick your nose in with some kind of digging. It's not the other way around is it? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7045 Posts
I mean you cant deny Snow PvT is really good. someone said on my stream Royal is like 2-20 lately vs him ( im not sure how real is that ) and he is doing well vs other terrans too. How do you even get to that point ? Win % ? Micro perfomance / Macro . Strategy evolution ? Multitasking ? If someone ask me who i consider to be the guy that peaked the most in pvt is Jangbi for sure. | ||
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TMNT
3366 Posts
On June 18 2023 19:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I mean you cant deny Snow PvT is really good. someone said on my stream Royal is like 2-20 lately vs him ( im not sure how real is that ) and he is doing well vs other terrans too. How do you even get to that point ? Win % ? Micro perfomance / Macro . Strategy evolution ? Multitasking ? If someone ask me who i consider to be the guy that peaked the most in pvt is Jangbi for sure. Looks right to me (record since april): ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Fx3V8yn.png) 74% vs Rush and 65% vs Light in that period too: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5EsVjqf.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/4M2lnKv.png) I doublt Jangbi was ever that dominant against the top 3 Terrans back then. That's how I formed my opinion that Snow has achieved peak PvT. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7045 Posts
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TMNT
3366 Posts
On June 18 2023 20:24 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: But that one has the problem of less competition this days. But the reality is that is not even worth comparing. Progamers now play from the comfort of home. Back then you needed to go to the studio and play in a different setup with public looking at you. U got the pressure of being benched or kicked from the team if u perform badly. It was a toyal different movie. imo this is not a convincing argument. If you look at the games being played in the Afreeca era how can you tell they are any worse than Kespa's? Every race has optimized their builds, cutting more corners, which mean the players are asked to do more. If anything, the level of play is higher than ever. The only thing worse is their mechanics compared to the golden era. Do you ever see Terran completing siege mode before landing the CC these days? No, pls juggle your tank and use repair. Two Gates before Robo to defend early pressue? No, you're supposed to micro now. Does being in a teamhouse and playing in a studio have anything to do with that? Do you think Jangbi also used Reaver as well as Snow when he practiced, but suddenly when he was on stage he just didn't try to do that anymore? Not to mention Jangbi also streamed a bit in the Afreeca era, but couldn't replicate his success in that comfortable environment. Plus, it's not like only one player is sitting in his comfortable chair at home and getting advantages. Both of them are. So the bar is raised for both which means no one has it any easier. | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
The more relevant comparison imo is what would happen if you gave the Kespa guys a month or two to catch up with the current metagame. Then it’s not at all clear who would dominate, because the Kespa guys have an edge in both mechanics and practice regimens. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Even if we assume that the competition is now more lax, this would change little about the fact that Snow is dominating like we've never seen it before. The hype is completely justified, and a missing ASL title can be ascribed to the fact that Snow has only relatively recently become so dominant in every matchup. The top TvP players have winrates around 55-60% this year - and that's with Snow pushing their winrates down. | ||
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TMNT
3366 Posts
On June 18 2023 22:23 Jae Zedong wrote: Asking whether a current pro would do better in the Kespa era if they were magically transported back is a dumb comparison to make, because they could just surprise everyone with 10+ years of meta advances. Flash himself said he would have a 99% winrate under those circumstances. The more relevant comparison imo is what would happen if you gave the Kespa guys a month or two to catch up with the current metagame. Then it’s not at all clear who would dominate, because the Kespa guys have an edge in both mechanics and practice regimens. But that doesn't solve the question of who is better because even if the Kespa guys travelled to the future and dominated, it'd be their hypothetical peak, not the real one. We can only compare what we have, which is their power relatively to their peers at the time of their peak. It's kind of like removing Federer/Nadal/Djokovic from their GOAT status because they eat better and have nicer racquets now compared to Borg/Laver. In this particular case, the only scenario where I'd say Jangbi peak is better than Snow peak is if somehow all the current Korean pros down their levels to somewhere around BSL. Then surely Snow beating Mihu and Gypsy 80% of the time is not as impressive. | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
With a lot of guys now being 30+ I really don't feel their mechanics are noticeably worse, but of course they are competing vs their peers and not vs 18 year old prodigy's like how many of them started out. It's hard to really understand it, unless a group of youngster would come up now like happend in sc2 w/ serral, reynor, clem. But that's unlikely to happen in BW, and even if it did, there are no teamhouses. Back when those guys came up and they were 18-20, they had been through years of intense practice in the teamhouse and amateur environment. | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
On June 18 2023 23:10 TMNT wrote: But that doesn't solve the question of who is better because even if the Kespa guys travelled to the future and dominated, it'd be their hypothetical peak, not the real one. We can only compare what we have, which is their power relatively to their peers at the time of their peak. It's kind of like removing Federer/Nadal/Djokovic from their GOAT status because they eat better and have nicer racquets now compared to Borg/Laver. In this particular case, the only scenario where I'd say Jangbi peak is better than Snow peak is if somehow all the current Korean pros down their levels to somewhere around BSL. Then surely Snow beating Mihu and Gypsy 80% of the time is not as impressive. You can’t really compare BW to physical sports like tennis, because the main/only thing holding the Kespa guys back is information. They just need information on the current meta and then they’d be competitive or even dominant within weeks. There’s no information you could give to prime Rod Laver that would make him competitive with Djokovic with a few weeks notice. There is a massive gulf in physical execution that simply can’t be overcome. But there is no massive difference between the mechanical execution of Snow and prime Jangbi. If anything Jangbi’s might be better; he’s simply executing the wrong stuff. If the question is: ”is Snow better relative to his peers right now then Jangbi ever was” then well yes, the numbers make it self evident. But it’s not clear that his general level (however one wishes to define it) is higher. Because the scene as a whole was much more competitive back then. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On June 19 2023 00:20 Jae Zedong wrote: You can’t really compare BW to physical sports like tennis, because the main/only thing holding the Kespa guys back is information. They just need information on the current meta and then they’d be competitive or even dominant within weeks. There’s no information you could give to prime Rod Laver that would make him competitive with Djokovic with a few weeks notice. There is a massive gulf in physical execution that simply can’t be overcome. But there is no massive difference between the mechanical execution of Snow and prime Jangbi. If anything Jangbi’s might be better; he’s simply executing the wrong stuff. If the question is: ”is Snow better relative to his peers right now then Jangbi ever was” then well yes, the numbers make it self evident. But it’s not clear that his general level (however one wishes to define it) is higher. Because the scene as a whole was much more competitive back then. What's the difference in difficulty presenting itself from more skilled players as opposed to a more evolved meta? If your argument is that ten years ago players had to overcome more skilled players in a less evolved meta, and today players have to overcome less skilled players in a more evolved meta, then the totality of skill would be more or less equal. Furthermore, if players from ten years ago "only need information", then players today "only need more practice". I doubt we can quantify which one is more challenging: practicing a new meta or practicing better mechanics. Both requires extensive training. For example an ace pilot would have to retrain his reflexes on an aircraft that has a different set of abilities, and this could take years because he has to rewire his brain. This is why Flash and many other top BW pros weren't dominant in SC2, while young blood was dominating instead. | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
On June 19 2023 00:39 Magic Powers wrote: What's the difference in difficulty presenting itself from more skilled players as opposed to a more evolved meta? If your argument is that ten years ago players had to overcome more skilled players in a less evolved meta, and today players have to overcome less skilled players in a more evolved meta, then the totality of skill would be more or less equal. Furthermore, if players from ten years ago "only need information", then players today "only need more practice". I doubt we can quantify which one is more challenging: practicing a new meta or practicing better mechanics. Both requires extensive training. For example an ace pilot would have to retrain his reflexes on an aircraft that has a different set of abilities, and this could take years because he has to rewire his brain. This is why Flash and many other top BW pros weren't dominant in SC2, while young blood was dominating instead. Well, BW now and then are not two different aircraft with ”different sets of abilities”. They’re the same aircraft used differently. So it’s not really comparable to BW vs SC2. If your argument is that ten years ago players had to overcome more skilled players in a less evolved meta, and today players have to overcome less skilled players in a more evolved meta, then the totality of skill would be more or less equal. I don’t think so at all. Shoulders of giants and all that. This is not meant to be a direct comparison, but all the current chess pros agree that Paul Morphy was an absolute genius at the game. But at the same time they say he might be equal to a 2200 today if he had no time to update his knowledge. But they’re usually quick to point out that he would smoke the 2200s if he just had time to learn modern openings and update his theory. Is a current 2200 showing equal skill to Paul Morphy, having benefitted from over a century of openings, chess theory and a few decades of computer analysis on top of that? If we forget about Jangbi and Snow for a bit, I think it’s clear that someone showing a 75% winrate during prime Kespa is more impressive than someone doing it now. Because the one doing it now is doing it against scattered 30+ year old fragments of the Kespa scene, missing many of its most noteworthy players and having received virtually no new blood for 10 years. So there’s no new generation putting the old guard to the test to see how good they really are. | ||
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Puosu
7077 Posts
A live squirrel supposed to be clinging on one side of a tree-trunk; while over against the tree's opposite side a human being was imagined to stand. This human witness tries to get sight of the squirrel by moving rapidly round the tree, but no matter how fast he goes, the squirrel moves as fast in the opposite direction, and always keeps the tree between himself and the man, so that never a glimpse of him is caught. The resultant metaphysical problem now is this: Does the man go round the squirrel or not? | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
There were in the past during all eras god's of PvT and god's of PvZ. They had not just very good winrates, but win rates that were great against players who dominated that specific matchup. They were never the same person and even if they were that would not guarantee someone reaching that level because it only takes one or two PvP snipes to discredit the run towards being a bonjwa. The only conclusion I draw from this is that imbalance is not the reason why one doesn't exist. Not only that, but other ones do exist in part due to bracket draw, map pool, meta shifts. | ||
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