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On June 15 2023 18:06 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote:
But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data. What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races? Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army. Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay. I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T.
Zergs don't throw their entire army into cannon+reaver+storm though. Long ago when protoss would defend far expansions by putting up that style of defense even then zergs didn't throw into it. They pressured it with dark swarm and some lings over and over to catch the reaver off guard or templar out of energy. The situation where you see zergs attacking into a well fortified position nowadays is getting rid of the forge OR an attempt to bust a protoss who has lacking defense not overwhelming, becuse the protoss made too few cannons or not enough units.
A terran attempted bust doesn't normally happen in the mid game. There was the pressure after a nexus first build that fell off becuse protosses adapted to defend it better. A terran may attempt a bust on a zerg's position who didn't make enough sunkens or lurkers or doesn't have defilers or a nydus yet, but they're not straight running 200/200 into 170/200 worth of lurkers darkswarm defiler sunken.
I do get your point on if protoss is behind what do you want to do, and sure you don't want to be sitting 200/200 while terran lays back and cruises to 200/200. If however you take the other 2 mains or start making carriers or even fake making carriers they're forced to move out. When terran is on the move storm/arbriters work better period. Beyond even that your 1a2a3a4a works a whole lot better when their position is away from their preset mines, turrets, depot walls etc. Your recalls are further away from their core, your storms do better because their units are clumped together.
And while I don't know the most effective way to play PvZ in the least bit there are pros that have their own version of the razorwire strats to break a zerg. Corsairs that supply block zerg from remaking. Brute force zealot attacks that attempt to focus on one area and busting up the drones, force unit production, while attacking hatches. Some also tax the multitasking ability of their opponent by running stuff everywhere, hoping that in just one area they're sucessful. Late game though they attempt to keep the same things up but it never seems to work very well. They lose expansions to a few units consistently, but never drop the reaver+templar+cannon down like games long ago to defend them. They never arbriter past the defenses. They get stalled repeatedly from losing their one observer which does happen, but it prevents them from being successful in that attack because by the time you get another one there, more static defense is made, more scourge for obs, more lurkers and defilers as well.
Throughout all time while not using the full extent of their ability as a race there have still always been sucessful PvT and PvZ players, but never on the same player. Then you're relying on tournament bracket AND that a PvP sniper doesn't stop you from progressing at the same time.
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On May 29 2023 04:25 darktreb wrote:
Is the lack of Protoss player checking all those boxes due to Protoss being worse?
Given that different Protoss players have been able to achieve the bonjwa-esque PvX level for different matchups, it seems like the issue is the challenge of combining all these skills at the same time.
That said, it's possible that it's simply "harder" for Protoss to reach this level simultaneously for its matchups, than other races.
The discussion should at least involve this question.
1a2a3a4a
Reaver
Bulldog or mass shuttle
Storm drop
Carrier
Corsair
Arbriter
Same core of units in all matchups, but all that specialty stuff that greatly changes the effectiveness of what you do and are able to do and even those things don't work the same way in all the matchups. A reaver in PvT isn't the same as one in PvZ. Corsairs and Carriers both great in one matchup, operate differently, and usually operate outside the main army. All needing to be babysat or risk losing them with fairly large investments into them.
If you want to be great at one matchup, it kind of takes you away from the other even though you're still mass producing zealots and dragoons. There is also a tipping point of how many types of specialty you can use at once. If you're using reavers in PvT you might eventually get storm and even drops for the storm, but can you micromanage carriers at the same time? And then you get so focused on using that reaver, that you don't realize that the T is approaching 200/200 and it simply isn't nearly as effective as it once was and perhaps switching to storm carrier or storm arbriter would have been a much better transition until it was too late.
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On June 16 2023 02:40 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2023 18:06 TMNT wrote:On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote:
But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data. What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races? Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army. Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay. I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T. Zergs don't throw their entire army into cannon+reaver+storm though. Long ago when protoss would defend far expansions by putting up that style of defense even then zergs didn't throw into it. They pressured it with dark swarm and some lings over and over to catch the reaver off guard or templar out of energy. The situation where you see zergs attacking into a well fortified position nowadays is getting rid of the forge OR an attempt to bust a protoss who has lacking defense not overwhelming, becuse the protoss made too few cannons or not enough units. A terran attempted bust doesn't normally happen in the mid game. There was the pressure after a nexus first build that fell off becuse protosses adapted to defend it better. A terran may attempt a bust on a zerg's position who didn't make enough sunkens or lurkers or doesn't have defilers or a nydus yet, but they're not straight running 200/200 into 170/200 worth of lurkers darkswarm defiler sunken. I do get your point on if protoss is behind what do you want to do, and sure you don't want to be sitting 200/200 while terran lays back and cruises to 200/200. If however you take the other 2 mains or start making carriers or even fake making carriers they're forced to move out. When terran is on the move storm/arbriters work better period. Beyond even that your 1a2a3a4a works a whole lot better when their position is away from their preset mines, turrets, depot walls etc. Your recalls are further away from their core, your storms do better because their units are clumped together. And while I don't know the most effective way to play PvZ in the least bit there are pros that have their own version of the razorwire strats to break a zerg. Corsairs that supply block zerg from remaking. Brute force zealot attacks that attempt to focus on one area and busting up the drones, force unit production, while attacking hatches. Some also tax the multitasking ability of their opponent by running stuff everywhere, hoping that in just one area they're sucessful. Late game though they attempt to keep the same things up but it never seems to work very well. They lose expansions to a few units consistently, but never drop the reaver+templar+cannon down like games long ago to defend them. They never arbriter past the defenses. They get stalled repeatedly from losing their one observer which does happen, but it prevents them from being successful in that attack because by the time you get another one there, more static defense is made, more scourge for obs, more lurkers and defilers as well. Throughout all time while not using the full extent of their ability as a race there have still always been sucessful PvT and PvZ players, but never on the same player. Then you're relying on tournament bracket AND that a PvP sniper doesn't stop you from progressing at the same time.
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On June 16 2023 04:14 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2023 02:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 15 2023 18:06 TMNT wrote:On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote:
But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data. What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races? Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army. Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay. I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T. Zergs don't throw their entire army into cannon+reaver+storm though. Long ago when protoss would defend far expansions by putting up that style of defense even then zergs didn't throw into it. They pressured it with dark swarm and some lings over and over to catch the reaver off guard or templar out of energy. The situation where you see zergs attacking into a well fortified position nowadays is getting rid of the forge OR an attempt to bust a protoss who has lacking defense not overwhelming, becuse the protoss made too few cannons or not enough units. A terran attempted bust doesn't normally happen in the mid game. There was the pressure after a nexus first build that fell off becuse protosses adapted to defend it better. A terran may attempt a bust on a zerg's position who didn't make enough sunkens or lurkers or doesn't have defilers or a nydus yet, but they're not straight running 200/200 into 170/200 worth of lurkers darkswarm defiler sunken. I do get your point on if protoss is behind what do you want to do, and sure you don't want to be sitting 200/200 while terran lays back and cruises to 200/200. If however you take the other 2 mains or start making carriers or even fake making carriers they're forced to move out. When terran is on the move storm/arbriters work better period. Beyond even that your 1a2a3a4a works a whole lot better when their position is away from their preset mines, turrets, depot walls etc. Your recalls are further away from their core, your storms do better because their units are clumped together. And while I don't know the most effective way to play PvZ in the least bit there are pros that have their own version of the razorwire strats to break a zerg. Corsairs that supply block zerg from remaking. Brute force zealot attacks that attempt to focus on one area and busting up the drones, force unit production, while attacking hatches. Some also tax the multitasking ability of their opponent by running stuff everywhere, hoping that in just one area they're sucessful. Late game though they attempt to keep the same things up but it never seems to work very well. They lose expansions to a few units consistently, but never drop the reaver+templar+cannon down like games long ago to defend them. They never arbriter past the defenses. They get stalled repeatedly from losing their one observer which does happen, but it prevents them from being successful in that attack because by the time you get another one there, more static defense is made, more scourge for obs, more lurkers and defilers as well. Throughout all time while not using the full extent of their ability as a race there have still always been sucessful PvT and PvZ players, but never on the same player. Then you're relying on tournament bracket AND that a PvP sniper doesn't stop you from progressing at the same time.
Solid contribution. Found the protoss player 
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This thread reminds me of school vacation summers in the countryside, when me and my friend would play out WC3 scenarios, e.g. hero X vs hero Y.
Of course, there wasn't even cable TV, let alone a PC, near us. We were just using our imagination and a notebook, writing down our elaborate battles.
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On June 16 2023 11:35 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2023 04:14 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On June 16 2023 02:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 15 2023 18:06 TMNT wrote:On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote:
But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data. What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races? Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army. Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay. I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T. Zergs don't throw their entire army into cannon+reaver+storm though. Long ago when protoss would defend far expansions by putting up that style of defense even then zergs didn't throw into it. They pressured it with dark swarm and some lings over and over to catch the reaver off guard or templar out of energy. The situation where you see zergs attacking into a well fortified position nowadays is getting rid of the forge OR an attempt to bust a protoss who has lacking defense not overwhelming, becuse the protoss made too few cannons or not enough units. A terran attempted bust doesn't normally happen in the mid game. There was the pressure after a nexus first build that fell off becuse protosses adapted to defend it better. A terran may attempt a bust on a zerg's position who didn't make enough sunkens or lurkers or doesn't have defilers or a nydus yet, but they're not straight running 200/200 into 170/200 worth of lurkers darkswarm defiler sunken. I do get your point on if protoss is behind what do you want to do, and sure you don't want to be sitting 200/200 while terran lays back and cruises to 200/200. If however you take the other 2 mains or start making carriers or even fake making carriers they're forced to move out. When terran is on the move storm/arbriters work better period. Beyond even that your 1a2a3a4a works a whole lot better when their position is away from their preset mines, turrets, depot walls etc. Your recalls are further away from their core, your storms do better because their units are clumped together. And while I don't know the most effective way to play PvZ in the least bit there are pros that have their own version of the razorwire strats to break a zerg. Corsairs that supply block zerg from remaking. Brute force zealot attacks that attempt to focus on one area and busting up the drones, force unit production, while attacking hatches. Some also tax the multitasking ability of their opponent by running stuff everywhere, hoping that in just one area they're sucessful. Late game though they attempt to keep the same things up but it never seems to work very well. They lose expansions to a few units consistently, but never drop the reaver+templar+cannon down like games long ago to defend them. They never arbriter past the defenses. They get stalled repeatedly from losing their one observer which does happen, but it prevents them from being successful in that attack because by the time you get another one there, more static defense is made, more scourge for obs, more lurkers and defilers as well. Throughout all time while not using the full extent of their ability as a race there have still always been sucessful PvT and PvZ players, but never on the same player. Then you're relying on tournament bracket AND that a PvP sniper doesn't stop you from progressing at the same time. Solid contribution. Found the protoss player
Anything else would be too good of a response to that silly post 
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On June 16 2023 02:40 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2023 18:06 TMNT wrote:On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote:
But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data. What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races? Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army. Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay. I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T. Zergs don't throw their entire army into cannon+reaver+storm though. Long ago when protoss would defend far expansions by putting up that style of defense even then zergs didn't throw into it. They pressured it with dark swarm and some lings over and over to catch the reaver off guard or templar out of energy. The situation where you see zergs attacking into a well fortified position nowadays is getting rid of the forge OR an attempt to bust a protoss who has lacking defense not overwhelming, becuse the protoss made too few cannons or not enough units. A terran attempted bust doesn't normally happen in the mid game. There was the pressure after a nexus first build that fell off becuse protosses adapted to defend it better. A terran may attempt a bust on a zerg's position who didn't make enough sunkens or lurkers or doesn't have defilers or a nydus yet, but they're not straight running 200/200 into 170/200 worth of lurkers darkswarm defiler sunken. I do get your point on if protoss is behind what do you want to do, and sure you don't want to be sitting 200/200 while terran lays back and cruises to 200/200. If however you take the other 2 mains or start making carriers or even fake making carriers they're forced to move out. When terran is on the move storm/arbriters work better period. Beyond even that your 1a2a3a4a works a whole lot better when their position is away from their preset mines, turrets, depot walls etc. Your recalls are further away from their core, your storms do better because their units are clumped together. And while I don't know the most effective way to play PvZ in the least bit there are pros that have their own version of the razorwire strats to break a zerg. Corsairs that supply block zerg from remaking. Brute force zealot attacks that attempt to focus on one area and busting up the drones, force unit production, while attacking hatches. Some also tax the multitasking ability of their opponent by running stuff everywhere, hoping that in just one area they're sucessful. Late game though they attempt to keep the same things up but it never seems to work very well. They lose expansions to a few units consistently, but never drop the reaver+templar+cannon down like games long ago to defend them. They never arbriter past the defenses. They get stalled repeatedly from losing their one observer which does happen, but it prevents them from being successful in that attack because by the time you get another one there, more static defense is made, more scourge for obs, more lurkers and defilers as well. Throughout all time while not using the full extent of their ability as a race there have still always been sucessful PvT and PvZ players, but never on the same player. Then you're relying on tournament bracket AND that a PvP sniper doesn't stop you from progressing at the same time.
You haven't seen last ASL Quarterfinals Best vs Action? Action on 200/200 with 5k in the bank kept attacking Best who was on 120/200, until Zerg run out of money and left. Funnily, earlier in that game Best did attack into a sea of sunkens and lurkers, and even earlier than that, it was Action who dived on a bunch of cannons for almost nothing. Earlier in that series, Action who was on the verge of winning somehow threw the game by repeating the equivalent of of a Protoss recall on mines.
But they are just isolated incidents. You can't accuse a whole race of something based on your tunnel vision.
There were a proleague recently where Light played Best and Mini in 2 consecutive games of 45 min each. In both games, both the Protoss players took all 3 corners of the map when Light was only on 4 bases, one using storms and Arbiters while the other transitioning into Carriers. They both lost to Light though. But the winning or losing is not important here. The point is it's not like those players don't know how to play the game is it? If me and you and the average C rank players know it, the pros know it.
It's so easy for the viewers, who always watch games with full vision and supply count, to put the blame on the players. So let's say the problem is not balance, but the players then. Then do you think if all Terran or Zerg players played Protoss instead, all those mistakes, stupid moves, wrongful strategy would just magically disappear? Like, in an alternate timeline where Light, Royal, Rush, Mind, JYJ,..... are Protoss players, we would never see 1a2a3a and suicide recall and whatnot? Nah ah. Some would be better and some would be worse players, but we would see the same kind of games we're seeing now, because it's just how the races are designed.
Case in point: during this off-season, Best played a lot of offrace TvP versus Rush, Royal, Light, JYJ, Sharp,.... and he held a record of ~80% win. Yep. Best - the god of gatewayman, the master of 1a2a3a. He won his TvPs by expanding and defending resiliently, not by 1a2a3a his tanks into Protoss. Meanwhile the Terran players offracing Protoss kept throwing zealot shuttle and templars into a sea of mines and tanks until they couldn't. Go watch Best's stream in May and find out.
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iirc that particular game ur referring to between best and action was on nemesis..
you cant take that game as a example in general.. nemesis is a very non standard map lol
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On June 17 2023 04:53 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2023 02:40 NoobSkills wrote:On June 15 2023 18:06 TMNT wrote:On June 15 2023 10:38 NoobSkills wrote:
But when it comes down to it and a protoss is stuck, they always go for the hammer, no matter how stupid it is. Attack into 10 sunkens + lurkers + defilier with 1 obs? Good idea! Straight 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a right into a entrenched T position? Lets hope we get good mine drags. Blind recall 6 times vs light in one match where the past 5 times he had mines+turrets+presieged tanks+vessel? Hope he forgot to replace the mines and turrets! Not sure why exactly they're not the best dealing with the change in matchups and adapting to scenarios, but the reason why a bonjwa toss doesn't exist has nothing to do with balance. It has everything to do with balance, as evidenced by 25 years of data. What you just described are just isolated incidents or sub-A rank strategy. Zerg and Terran can have stupid moves too (like throwing your entire Zerg army into a cannon reaver templar well defended position, for example), but have you ever stopped for a moment to think and realize that the gameplay kind of forces Protoss to make that kind of move more often than the other races? Think about it, in a PvT if the Protoss is ahead, what does he do? Keep attacking and wear down the tank count, while expanding yourself. In that case the 1a2a3a looks amazing.No problem. But what if he's behind? There's no options for Protoss to retreat and turtle and come out later. He has to force the issue by another attack, some sorts of harassment, or even a hail mary recall, etc. On the other hand, what if the Terran's behind? Keep calm, defend well, and expand when you can. Once you have 4 bases everything is possible because your army is far stronger than their army. Terran always gives the impression of a calm, composed, calculated race while Protoss and Zerg will always give the vibe of apes and orges. That's just the gameplay. I'm not saying the Terran has a better chance to win when he's behind than the Protoss, but the gameplay itself doesn't encourage Terran to make agressive moves to even it out when he's behind. As a rule of thumb in video games or just in real life, you need less to defend than attack, so the race who is forced to attack more will make more "stupid" moves. In that sense, the order once again is P>Z>T. Zergs don't throw their entire army into cannon+reaver+storm though. Long ago when protoss would defend far expansions by putting up that style of defense even then zergs didn't throw into it. They pressured it with dark swarm and some lings over and over to catch the reaver off guard or templar out of energy. The situation where you see zergs attacking into a well fortified position nowadays is getting rid of the forge OR an attempt to bust a protoss who has lacking defense not overwhelming, becuse the protoss made too few cannons or not enough units. A terran attempted bust doesn't normally happen in the mid game. There was the pressure after a nexus first build that fell off becuse protosses adapted to defend it better. A terran may attempt a bust on a zerg's position who didn't make enough sunkens or lurkers or doesn't have defilers or a nydus yet, but they're not straight running 200/200 into 170/200 worth of lurkers darkswarm defiler sunken. I do get your point on if protoss is behind what do you want to do, and sure you don't want to be sitting 200/200 while terran lays back and cruises to 200/200. If however you take the other 2 mains or start making carriers or even fake making carriers they're forced to move out. When terran is on the move storm/arbriters work better period. Beyond even that your 1a2a3a4a works a whole lot better when their position is away from their preset mines, turrets, depot walls etc. Your recalls are further away from their core, your storms do better because their units are clumped together. And while I don't know the most effective way to play PvZ in the least bit there are pros that have their own version of the razorwire strats to break a zerg. Corsairs that supply block zerg from remaking. Brute force zealot attacks that attempt to focus on one area and busting up the drones, force unit production, while attacking hatches. Some also tax the multitasking ability of their opponent by running stuff everywhere, hoping that in just one area they're sucessful. Late game though they attempt to keep the same things up but it never seems to work very well. They lose expansions to a few units consistently, but never drop the reaver+templar+cannon down like games long ago to defend them. They never arbriter past the defenses. They get stalled repeatedly from losing their one observer which does happen, but it prevents them from being successful in that attack because by the time you get another one there, more static defense is made, more scourge for obs, more lurkers and defilers as well. Throughout all time while not using the full extent of their ability as a race there have still always been sucessful PvT and PvZ players, but never on the same player. Then you're relying on tournament bracket AND that a PvP sniper doesn't stop you from progressing at the same time. You haven't seen last ASL Quarterfinals Best vs Action? Action on 200/200 with 5k in the bank kept attacking Best who was on 120/200, until Zerg run out of money and left. Funnily, earlier in that game Best did attack into a sea of sunkens and lurkers, and even earlier than that, it was Action who dived on a bunch of cannons for almost nothing. Earlier in that series, Action who was on the verge of winning somehow threw the game by repeating the equivalent of of a Protoss recall on mines. But they are just isolated incidents. You can't accuse a whole race of something based on your tunnel vision. There were a proleague recently where Light played Best and Mini in 2 consecutive games of 45 min each. In both games, both the Protoss players took all 3 corners of the map when Light was only on 4 bases, one using storms and Arbiters while the other transitioning into Carriers. They both lost to Light though. But the winning or losing is not important here. The point is it's not like those players don't know how to play the game is it? If me and you and the average C rank players know it, the pros know it. It's so easy for the viewers, who always watch games with full vision and supply count, to put the blame on the players. So let's say the problem is not balance, but the players then. Then do you think if all Terran or Zerg players played Protoss instead, all those mistakes, stupid moves, wrongful strategy would just magically disappear? Like, in an alternate timeline where Light, Royal, Rush, Mind, JYJ,..... are Protoss players, we would never see 1a2a3a and suicide recall and whatnot? Nah ah. Some would be better and some would be worse players, but we would see the same kind of games we're seeing now, because it's just how the races are designed. Case in point: during this off-season, Best played a lot of offrace TvP versus Rush, Royal, Light, JYJ, Sharp,.... and he held a record of ~80% win. Yep. Best - the god of gatewayman, the master of 1a2a3a. He won his TvPs by expanding and defending resiliently, not by 1a2a3a his tanks into Protoss. Meanwhile the Terran players offracing Protoss kept throwing zealot shuttle and templars into a sea of mines and tanks until they couldn't. Go watch Best's stream in May and find out.
We're getting far into specific matches. Action had to fight for that last base because of economy and didn't shove his army either he was tactical, best was just more tactical and had economy backing. And again Action didn't shove into the defense on the other match, he avoided it sucesfully once, and it got hard countered the next time, didn't adapt after the first, didn't take the expos available. Also best was playing pretty insane in that series. But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb.
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?
During every era of a bojwa there have been protosses who were really good at vT and vZ. Killed by either their weaker matchup or a PvP snipe. Combined would they have 100% been on par with a bonjwa status who knows? But consistently you see when they're playing their weaker matchup they are predictable, cheesey, aggro, and lack variety. And btw I get it, if you're very good at using carriers or crazy macro off gateway man that doesn't translate directly to the other matchups. Meanwhile your corsair and observer control are totally different and again not as useful elsewhere.
So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one.
On June 17 2023 06:55 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
iirc that particular game ur referring to between best and action was on nemesis..
you cant take that game as a example in general.. nemesis is a very non standard map lol
Doesn't matter, he didn't yeet into defense in the first place and it was forced due to economy. Not a blind attempt to to brute force his way into a base for no reason. Even if there was another expansion on the map he was still obligated to attempt to break him, can't just sit while he has double your mining at that point. You'd economically be forced to attempt to break one of those so he couldn't have it or even better if you could.
Btw that series was pretty awesome. Dark archon went super ham. That match specifically might have been one of the most versatile unit selections in a game lol.
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On June 17 2023 06:55 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
iirc that particular game ur referring to between best and action was on nemesis..
you cant take that game as a example in general.. nemesis is a very non standard map lol
Yep but I did say they are isolated incidents, not a representation of the how the race should be played.
Sometimes due to what happens earlier in the game, players just back themselves into a corner where they are tempted to do something that looks "stupid" to the viewers watching in observer mode. My point is, Protoss gets that reputation the most not because their players are less smart or strategical than Terran or Zerg. It's just how the races and matchups are designed.
Terran makes that kind of move the least because... well, they are Terran. Their units are all ranged. The closest thing to 1a2a3a for Terran is MM charging into sunkens and lurkers (before dark swarm is out), but because Terran has a map hack tool they are less likely to over-extend.
Zerg is the second in that matter. Tbf Zerg is just as much of a brute force race as Protoss but they're kind of allowed to do it because of (a) dark swarm and (b) the outrageous size of their army and (c) their units are expendable anyway.
Protoss suffers the most from that bad reputation mainly because of PvT. Good Terrans will deny your vision + Zealots are melee units = you are more likely tempted to run into a trap with no going back (this is also true in PvZ as well where Zealots run into a Lurker field). The best engagements Protoss have in PvT are the ones where they have an unspotted Observer parked on top of the Terran army. Plus, Protoss is the only race without an invisible "trap" (mines for Terran and lurkers for Zerg) AND they have to attack the most, so that just add up the chances for Protoss to do something "stupid" against T and Z and reduce the chances for the opposite to happen.
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On June 17 2023 07:53 NoobSkills wrote:
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?
Here it is: https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/605325-megathread-daily-proleagues?page=19#369
(game 4 and 6 of Set 1).
I don't mean to argue over winning or losing because Light obviously did something right and Mini and Best obviously did something wrong to get that outcome. What I mean is their overall approach was right. The wrong is probably execution.
But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb.
You remember it wrong. Best did use Arbiters and recall in the Sylphid game. The first one was kind of meh and the second one was useless and lost him the game. He didn't even recall on mines but tbf, Arbiter is kind of a hit or miss tool itself in the modern meta and that's why we don't see it as often these days. Snow - without a doubt the best PvT player in history - rarely uses Arbiter. So does Mini. The ones who use Arbiter the most are old school players like Bisu and Best.
So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one.
I did address this point in the previous page (the post with the win rate table): in fact, Terran and Zerg players are not exactly Archon either. Most Terrans these days are better at TvZ than TvP and most Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. I assume if you look at the win rates during KEspa you'd get the same story. What kills Protoss is (1) PvP is more coin-flippy than TvT and ZvZ and (2) PvT is not as P-favored as T in TvZ or Z in ZvP.
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On June 17 2023 12:58 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 07:53 NoobSkills wrote:
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?
Here it is: https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/605325-megathread-daily-proleagues?page=19#369(game 4 and 6 of Set 1). I don't mean to argue over winning or losing because Light obviously did something right and Mini and Best obviously did something wrong to get that outcome. What I mean is their overall approach was right. The wrong is probably execution. Show nested quote +But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb. You remember it wrong. Best did use Arbiters and recall in the Sylphid game. The first one was kind of meh and the second one was useless and lost him the game. He didn't even recall on mines but tbf, Arbiter is kind of a hit or miss tool itself in the modern meta and that's why we don't see it as often these days. Snow - without a doubt the best PvT player in history - rarely uses Arbiter. So does Mini. The ones who use Arbiter the most are old school players like Bisu and Best. Show nested quote +So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one. I did address this point in the previous page (the post with the win rate table): in fact, Terran and Zerg players are not exactly Archon either. Most Terrans these days are better at TvZ than TvP and most Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. I assume if you look at the win rates during KEspa you'd get the same story. What kills Protoss is (1) PvP is more coin-flippy than TvT and ZvZ and (2) PvT is not as P-favored as T in TvZ or Z in ZvP.
Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title
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On June 17 2023 13:51 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 12:58 TMNT wrote:On June 17 2023 07:53 NoobSkills wrote:
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?
Here it is: https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/605325-megathread-daily-proleagues?page=19#369(game 4 and 6 of Set 1). I don't mean to argue over winning or losing because Light obviously did something right and Mini and Best obviously did something wrong to get that outcome. What I mean is their overall approach was right. The wrong is probably execution. But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb. You remember it wrong. Best did use Arbiters and recall in the Sylphid game. The first one was kind of meh and the second one was useless and lost him the game. He didn't even recall on mines but tbf, Arbiter is kind of a hit or miss tool itself in the modern meta and that's why we don't see it as often these days. Snow - without a doubt the best PvT player in history - rarely uses Arbiter. So does Mini. The ones who use Arbiter the most are old school players like Bisu and Best. So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one. I did address this point in the previous page (the post with the win rate table): in fact, Terran and Zerg players are not exactly Archon either. Most Terrans these days are better at TvZ than TvP and most Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. I assume if you look at the win rates during KEspa you'd get the same story. What kills Protoss is (1) PvP is more coin-flippy than TvT and ZvZ and (2) PvT is not as P-favored as T in TvZ or Z in ZvP. Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title
Come to think of it, maybe the wording is wrong. I mean his level right now can be considered peak PvT in history. I don't think Jangbi ever dominated in PvT like that.
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On June 17 2023 13:51 WGT-Baal wrote:
Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title
You're on the verge of opening Pandora's box while simultaneously playing with fire. Tread carefully.
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On June 17 2023 12:58 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 07:53 NoobSkills wrote:
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?
Here it is: https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/605325-megathread-daily-proleagues?page=19#369(game 4 and 6 of Set 1). I don't mean to argue over winning or losing because Light obviously did something right and Mini and Best obviously did something wrong to get that outcome. What I mean is their overall approach was right. The wrong is probably execution. Show nested quote +But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb. You remember it wrong. Best did use Arbiters and recall in the Sylphid game. The first one was kind of meh and the second one was useless and lost him the game. He didn't even recall on mines but tbf, Arbiter is kind of a hit or miss tool itself in the modern meta and that's why we don't see it as often these days. Snow - without a doubt the best PvT player in history - rarely uses Arbiter. So does Mini. The ones who use Arbiter the most are old school players like Bisu and Best. Show nested quote +So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one. I did address this point in the previous page (the post with the win rate table): in fact, Terran and Zerg players are not exactly Archon either. Most Terrans these days are better at TvZ than TvP and most Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. I assume if you look at the win rates during KEspa you'd get the same story. What kills Protoss is (1) PvP is more coin-flippy than TvT and ZvZ and (2) PvT is not as P-favored as T in TvZ or Z in ZvP.
Thank you very much for the link. Gonna watch those games later on.
Not sure why I cannot recall the arbriter game. Perhaps it was underwhelming? Regardless his overall strategy was ape, and we know he is a great capable player. But the reliance of that specifically makes the decision to hard counter it easy right? If you're ever in doubt, more mines, more turrets, a bit more speard cuz he does make a few templar, more building blocks and wait for him to destroy himself. On the subject of snow who is no doubt one of the best PvT players, and I would disagree with whoever pointed out the other PvT superstars of the past. Snow is now facing the hardest PvT meta ever in existence and doing well. And yes while I still contend that protoss players get suck in their path far too often, this is indeed the hardest time to play vs a T. And even snow could use some more arbriter or carrier play, laying off the reaver play a bit sooner and making a transition.
I get your statistic posting. For some reason I do understand that there is value, but there is so much other data being represented in those numbers that I don't think it is fair to post win rates. How far are the games going back? Which tourmanet/map pool was going on? Was there a new recent meta dominating? Flash alone has destroyed some peoples win rates across the board.
I will agree with you on your overall analysis of the norm for what race does better vs what race. What kills protoss is definitly PvP, and that all 3 of the matchups are so far different in how you use your units you're playing 3 completely different versions of protoss and not only that even within those 3 different versions there are wide varations on tech. I don't describe PvP as coin flippy though, but that one player before the game starts out already has an advantage, and the person on the losing side of that advantage has to do something to throw that player off because if the game is normal or regular they will cement their losing position very shortly.
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On June 17 2023 13:51 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 12:58 TMNT wrote:On June 17 2023 07:53 NoobSkills wrote:
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?
Here it is: https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/605325-megathread-daily-proleagues?page=19#369(game 4 and 6 of Set 1). I don't mean to argue over winning or losing because Light obviously did something right and Mini and Best obviously did something wrong to get that outcome. What I mean is their overall approach was right. The wrong is probably execution. But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb. You remember it wrong. Best did use Arbiters and recall in the Sylphid game. The first one was kind of meh and the second one was useless and lost him the game. He didn't even recall on mines but tbf, Arbiter is kind of a hit or miss tool itself in the modern meta and that's why we don't see it as often these days. Snow - without a doubt the best PvT player in history - rarely uses Arbiter. So does Mini. The ones who use Arbiter the most are old school players like Bisu and Best. So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one. I did address this point in the previous page (the post with the win rate table): in fact, Terran and Zerg players are not exactly Archon either. Most Terrans these days are better at TvZ than TvP and most Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. I assume if you look at the win rates during KEspa you'd get the same story. What kills Protoss is (1) PvP is more coin-flippy than TvT and ZvZ and (2) PvT is not as P-favored as T in TvZ or Z in ZvP. Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title
Didn't they all have the benefit of playing before flash went god mode? Not to say terrans of the time back then didn't copy the best strats they could, but flash has routinely solved different metas that they could copy.
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On June 17 2023 18:45 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 13:51 WGT-Baal wrote:On June 17 2023 12:58 TMNT wrote:On June 17 2023 07:53 NoobSkills wrote:
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?
Here it is: https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/605325-megathread-daily-proleagues?page=19#369(game 4 and 6 of Set 1). I don't mean to argue over winning or losing because Light obviously did something right and Mini and Best obviously did something wrong to get that outcome. What I mean is their overall approach was right. The wrong is probably execution. But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb. You remember it wrong. Best did use Arbiters and recall in the Sylphid game. The first one was kind of meh and the second one was useless and lost him the game. He didn't even recall on mines but tbf, Arbiter is kind of a hit or miss tool itself in the modern meta and that's why we don't see it as often these days. Snow - without a doubt the best PvT player in history - rarely uses Arbiter. So does Mini. The ones who use Arbiter the most are old school players like Bisu and Best. So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one. I did address this point in the previous page (the post with the win rate table): in fact, Terran and Zerg players are not exactly Archon either. Most Terrans these days are better at TvZ than TvP and most Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. I assume if you look at the win rates during KEspa you'd get the same story. What kills Protoss is (1) PvP is more coin-flippy than TvT and ZvZ and (2) PvT is not as P-favored as T in TvZ or Z in ZvP. Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title Come to think of it, maybe the wording is wrong. I mean his level right now can be considered peak PvT in history. I don't think Jangbi ever dominated in PvT like that.
Huh. PvT peak in History is a very strong statement to the ashes of a one time great Pro scene that now dedicates most of the time to obs games and play few x day. Im not a protoss player tho. But i really have my doubts.
But i can agree i never seen any protoss player doing what Snow does with shuttle and reavers.
But PvT peak uff.
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On June 18 2023 07:48 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 13:51 WGT-Baal wrote:On June 17 2023 12:58 TMNT wrote:On June 17 2023 07:53 NoobSkills wrote:
Would love the name of the proleague you're talking about to watch the VODs. Regardless of their losses, I still find that them attempting to take the map or using carriers to be a solid play. Would brute force have worked? Would a better PvT player have done better?
Here it is: https://tl.net/forum/bw-tournaments/605325-megathread-daily-proleagues?page=19#369(game 4 and 6 of Set 1). I don't mean to argue over winning or losing because Light obviously did something right and Mini and Best obviously did something wrong to get that outcome. What I mean is their overall approach was right. The wrong is probably execution. But in his next match vs mind what happened? Largely brute force, which worked twice, but didn't work out overall. Zero use of carriers, or arbriters. One reaver. Meanwhile mind never once defended his base vs an arb. You remember it wrong. Best did use Arbiters and recall in the Sylphid game. The first one was kind of meh and the second one was useless and lost him the game. He didn't even recall on mines but tbf, Arbiter is kind of a hit or miss tool itself in the modern meta and that's why we don't see it as often these days. Snow - without a doubt the best PvT player in history - rarely uses Arbiter. So does Mini. The ones who use Arbiter the most are old school players like Bisu and Best. So my question to you is, if protoss players were able to make an archon at any point in SCBW out of any 2 pros would/could there have been a bonjwa out of them? I think statistically speaking yes. And if that is true, then imbalance had nothing to do with why there wasn't one. I did address this point in the previous page (the post with the win rate table): in fact, Terran and Zerg players are not exactly Archon either. Most Terrans these days are better at TvZ than TvP and most Zergs are better at ZvP than ZvT. I assume if you look at the win rates during KEspa you'd get the same story. What kills Protoss is (1) PvP is more coin-flippy than TvT and ZvZ and (2) PvT is not as P-favored as T in TvZ or Z in ZvP. Since when is Snow the best PvT player in history? And i say that as a CJ fan. Snow is decent in an era with a much lower skill level. Kespa-era Jangbi/bisu/best should be in contention for that title Didn't they all have the benefit of playing before flash went god mode? Not to say terrans of the time back then didn't copy the best strats they could, but flash has routinely solved different metas that they could copy.
Jangbi went to defeat Baby (aka Ty), Flash (after his starleague wins) and Fantasy in the final in the same run. Flash was already in god mode then. Meanwhile snow hasnt had amazing showing vs T in ASL.
Is he doing amazing with his shuttle in daily proleagues? Absolutely. Best PvT-er currently? Also yes, but best in history, as eon said as well, that s a big stretch.
Now we re talking about a bygone era so if you're somewhat new, i get why you d make that statement.
As for the lack of protoss bonjwa i think we ll probably never know, the 6 dragons era was interesting, but there were a couple godlike players for Z and T at the same time. domination over a period requires also some sort of luck in that regard.
I think as long as you have a somewhat healthy race balance in the ro16/ro8 you could say it s all very close, but this season with only 3 P (and previous seasons of P getting hammered all the time unless they got extremely favourable map pool/were named rain) it does paint a bleak picture.
Now this is for the very top, lower rank ladder experience varies wildly of course.
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On June 18 2023 10:37 WGT-Baal wrote:
Jangbi went to defeat Baby (aka Ty), Flash (after his starleague wins) and Fantasy in the final in the same run. Flash was already in god mode then. Meanwhile snow hasnt had amazing showing vs T in ASL.
Is he doing amazing with his shuttle in daily proleagues? Absolutely. Best PvT-er currently? Also yes, but best in history, as eon said as well, that s a big stretch.
Now we re talking about a bygone era so if you're somewhat new, i get why you d make that statement.
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If we're shown PvT games from the Kespa era and games in 2023 without knowing which are which, we 'd surely think the games from 2023 are played at a higher skill level.
The peak skill level associated with the 2010 period has some misunderstanding in it. It largely concerns the players' mechanics back then, as in their hands were all 10 years younger, their reactions miliseconds faster etc. But the game back then wasn't more difficult than it is now. The meta has developed so much for Terran that Arbiter play is considered outdated now, let alone pure Gatewayman.
Go watch the PvT back then, you'd find players expanding much later. 2 Gates before Robo was the norm. Robo before Nexus was not unusual. Reaver was only used for early harassment. Juggling 2 Reavers to delay Terran's expansion, or even an entire army, wasn't a thing. Microing Reaver after 20+ minutes wasn't a thing. You see Snow doing every move Jangbi did back then, but you won't find something Snow's doing now in Jangbi's play in the 2010s.
Even Best is playing the better PvT games now than he was around 2010s in basically the same style added some innovations of the modern era, despite being old af.
Free and Stork are 2 of the dragons who are still stuck in 2010s and can't adapt to the modern play. One was the god of battle and the other god of carriers. Watch Free doing the 1a2a3a in 2023 and get destroyed and Stork dying before his Carriers come out because Terran's build is so optimized now.
As for Bisu, he only started to try the new style after his return after coingate, to moderate success. He's always been one of the top PvT players, but how is he even in the conversation for the best PvT of all time, I'll never know.
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People here arguing that Snow isn't the absolute best PvT player of all time have probably neither watched his games nor seen his results. The moves he pulls are out of this world. Both his army management and unit control are out of this world, I've literally never seen a protoss player pull this off. I've seen his shuttle/reaver control and the way he methodically pulls terran apart with harassment from many sides and near perfect timings and great precision.
Just this month he sits with a 78.6% winrate overall - of which 32 wins and 4 losses come from PvT, which is close to an 89% winrate.
He destroys Light, Royal and Rush on the regular, and he just destroyed (out of form) Flash 5-0.
No, this is not because players these days aren't as skilled as during the golden days. It's strictly because Snow understands PvT better than anyone in history.
Even if we were to argue that protoss natural winrate vs terran should sit at around 55-60%, Snow would still be removed from that by another 20-30% (considering variance). That's just not achievable if you're not the literal best at something. No protoss player in history has come close to achieving such domination.
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EPT
